FlamingBeard wrote: »usmcjdking wrote: »I think it's an interesting idea.
Not particularly balanced - but a good idea. I'd probably slap a cost onto power lash if we're going to increase the methods of proccing it.
But it would still have a 3 second cooldown.
That’s perfectly reasonable for having only a small chance to proc unless the opponent is set off-balance.
It would allow magDK to do better DPS in PvE and have slightly more magicka sustain, while also not making it too strong in PvP.
IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.
Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
It depends what you think is favorable: „Bursty“ sustain or steady sustain. Or in other words: Getting a larger chunk of resource back once in a while or a much smaller amount for a stable time.
There are situations when “bursty” sustain is better, most notably when you’re on the verge of running dry and the opponent is in execute range. If the formula is still a good one after Morrowind changes is up to debate, but in my opinion buffing Battle Roar should only be done on small increments if any. It just takes so little to become OP again.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
Can you link me the video?
My math on the subject:
Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).
If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
125/3=41,666....
With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
46*125=5750
So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen
To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
15% of 1840=276
So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).
106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.
Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
Can you link me the video?
My math on the subject:
Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).
If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
125/3=41,666....
With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
46*125=5750
So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen
To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
15% of 1840=276
So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).
106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.
Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..
I would like to point out that Battle Roar has a significant opportunity cost attached to it that isn't and cannot be represented by numbers. You indicate that Battle Roar can net the equivalent of 276 magicka recovery, but that assumes ultimate use on cooldown. In other words, to achieve 276 magicka recovery from Battle Roar, I need to utilize my ultimate the instant it becomes available, regardless of whether it is optimal do to so from a combat perspective. If, on the other hand, I focus my ultimate usage on combat timing (e.g., Leaping a low health target), then the theoretical sustain from Battle Roar can take a significant hit. That is a considerable opportunity cost; I can either maximize my sustain, or I can maximize my combat efficiency. I cannot do both unless I get my ultimate up at precisely the moment I need it. Invariably, the 276 magicka recovery potential from Battle Roar takes a hit (usually, a very significant hit) due to combat timing.
So really, we can say that Battle Roar provides a ceiling of about 276 magicka recovery, but what it actually provides can often be significantly less.
Other classes don't really have to face the same opportunity costs, and certainly no other class has to with regard to their ultimate usage. Staying with the mNB comparison, there is no opportunity costs to Refreshing Shadows or Siphoning Attacks. Those both passively restore resources regardless of what I'm doing and do not effect my ultimate usage whatsoever. There's no real ceiling or floor to the sustain these abilities provide--as your math shows, they basically just provide what they provide assuming you're capable of recasting Siphoning Attacks every 20 seconds.
Now, of course Battle Roar also has a significant strength. It provides tremendous secondary-stat recovery (e.g., stamina sustain) for mDKs (only Accelerated Growth beats it for secondary stat sustain). But for primary stat sustain and health sustain, Battle Roar has undeniably taken too many nerfs.
One way of increasing the efficiency of Battle Roar is simply to reduce the costs of some of mDKs overpriced skills. As the poster above me points out, skills like Cinder Storm are outrageously overpriced next to comparable class AoEs. In 2014 and 2015 expensive class abilities was the price mDKs had to pay for nearly unlimited and God-like sustain achieved from converting dynamic ultimate generation into resources through Battle Roar, but those days are long gone and Battle Roar is just a shell of its former self. Yet our class abilities remain the most expensive across the board. If ZOS were to go through and look at each mDK ability and adjust its cost, the strain on Battle Roar could be greatly reduced without having to simply up the resource return on Battle Roar.
All that being said, I genuinely prefer the opportunity cost playstyle that DK offers. But ZOS needs to make the playstyle feel more feast or famine rather than just famine all the time.
Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).
jakeedmundson wrote: »
Obligatory fact check: False. There will be no negative change in sustain, in fact the opposite is true as you'll be able to use the free cost Power Lash twice as often (every 3s, rather than every 5-7s).
Please correct me if i'm wrong here. not trying to be a smart @$$ at all.
response to above....Except in PVE where a boss can only be set off balance every 15 seconds now. (unless i missed a pts patch change)
this would 100% directly hurt sustain for mag dks in trials/dungeons. Not only can we not rely on proc'ing our own off balance for whips... we will now need to try and time our rotations to match bosses off balance cool downs.
How has it seemingly gone unnoticed that mag dks already don't get into to trials as dps? I don't see it getting any better after this change.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
Can you link me the video?
My math on the subject:
Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).
If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
125/3=41,666....
With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
46*125=5750
So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen
To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
15% of 1840=276
So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).
106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.
Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..
I would like to point out that Battle Roar has a significant opportunity cost attached to it that isn't and cannot be represented by numbers. You indicate that Battle Roar can net the equivalent of 276 magicka recovery, but that assumes ultimate use on cooldown. In other words, to achieve 276 magicka recovery from Battle Roar, I need to utilize my ultimate the instant it becomes available, regardless of whether it is optimal do to so from a combat perspective. If, on the other hand, I focus my ultimate usage on combat timing (e.g., Leaping a low health target), then the theoretical sustain from Battle Roar can take a significant hit. That is a considerable opportunity cost; I can either maximize my sustain, or I can maximize my combat efficiency. I cannot do both unless I get my ultimate up at precisely the moment I need it. Invariably, the 276 magicka recovery potential from Battle Roar takes a hit (usually, a very significant hit) due to combat timing.
So really, we can say that Battle Roar provides a ceiling of about 276 magicka recovery, but what it actually provides can often be significantly less.
Other classes don't really have to face the same opportunity costs, and certainly no other class has to with regard to their ultimate usage. Staying with the mNB comparison, there is no opportunity costs to Refreshing Shadows or Siphoning Attacks. Those both passively restore resources regardless of what I'm doing and do not effect my ultimate usage whatsoever. There's no real ceiling or floor to the sustain these abilities provide--as your math shows, they basically just provide what they provide assuming you're capable of recasting Siphoning Attacks every 20 seconds.
Now, of course Battle Roar also has a significant strength. It provides tremendous secondary-stat recovery (e.g., stamina sustain) for mDKs (only Accelerated Growth beats it for secondary stat sustain). But for primary stat sustain and health sustain, Battle Roar has undeniably taken too many nerfs.
One way of increasing the efficiency of Battle Roar is simply to reduce the costs of some of mDKs overpriced skills. As the poster above me points out, skills like Cinder Storm are outrageously overpriced next to comparable class AoEs. In 2014 and 2015 expensive class abilities was the price mDKs had to pay for nearly unlimited and God-like sustain achieved from converting dynamic ultimate generation into resources through Battle Roar, but those days are long gone and Battle Roar is just a shell of its former self. Yet our class abilities remain the most expensive across the board. If ZOS were to go through and look at each mDK ability and adjust its cost, the strain on Battle Roar could be greatly reduced without having to simply up the resource return on Battle Roar.
All that being said, I genuinely prefer the opportunity cost playstyle that DK offers. But ZOS needs to make the playstyle feel more feast or famine rather than just famine all the time.
True, though it's likely you still get more value from Earthen Heart than from Refreshing Shadows - in the end depends on how many mag regen bonuses you've got from gear & mundus.
I think skills like Cinder Storm just underperform in general and could use some buffs... but I wouldn't touch Flame Lash for instance - the skill already saves you magicka by becoming free every 3 seconds in PvP and twice (maximum) during Off Balance period in PvE.
Skills that could use buffs/cost reduction/whatever: Ash Cloud & morphs, Talons & morphs, Molten Weapons & morphs, Stonefist & morphs.
Molten Whip, Reflective Plate, Hardened Armor, Deep Breath, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks also need big buffs.
And from stamina perspective, Venomous Claw doesn't really compare to Rending Slashes/Blood Craze in damage and usefulness (as detailed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/392774/does-any-stamdk-here-feel-the-heroic-slash-nerf/p2) & Igneous Weapons is trash.
The rest are just fine I think.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
Battle roar is screwing itself basically cause it returns every resource. Channeled focus, siphoning etc only return one resource so they are better. Sucks, but it is what it is.
ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »Short answer is DKs likely won't be seeing a ton of changes before we go live; this class is still quite powerful (as it should be being a tank), even after some of the adjustments we've made to other classes and abilities.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
This is just ridiculous. As Gilliam points out in one of his videos, Battle Roar is one of the most underperforming forms of sustain in the game. Magicka DK has somewhere around ~500 less effective Magicka recovery than mNB because mNB has Refreshing Shadows and Siphoning Attacks.
But a DK skill need to cost 1k more magicka than a comparable NB skill because....Battle Roar. Ok.
Can you link me the video?
My math on the subject:
Assuming you get only 3 ulti/second (light attack weaving).
If your ultimate costs 125, then it'll take an approximate 41,666... seconds to use an ultimate.
125/3=41,666....
With 46 resources/ultimate point being restored, 125 ultimate returns 5750 magicka.
46*125=5750
So you get an average 138 magicka/second, which equals 276 magicka regen.
5750/41,666...=138*2=276 regen
To get the equivalent from Refreshing Shadows, you'd need 1840 base magicka regen (i.e. regen before any CPs or other passives are added).
15% of 1840=276
So I don't think we can blame Battle Roar for underperforming (especially when it also restores health & stamina), it's more like a combination of things. Siphoning Attacks for instance is a very powerful skill (one DKs don't have the equivalent of).
106 magicka/light attack is worth around 75 magicka/second with normal 1,3s~ weaves, or 150 magicka regen. But the main part of the sustain comes from the effect at the end, 4270 magicka. When the skill costs 973 to cast, we're looking at
4270-973=3297/20(duration)=164 magicka/second, or 329 "magicka regen" on top of the 150~ you already got from light attacks.
Add in Elemental Drain (worth around 400 "magicka regen"), cheaper skill costs in general and well..
I would like to point out that Battle Roar has a significant opportunity cost attached to it that isn't and cannot be represented by numbers. You indicate that Battle Roar can net the equivalent of 276 magicka recovery, but that assumes ultimate use on cooldown. In other words, to achieve 276 magicka recovery from Battle Roar, I need to utilize my ultimate the instant it becomes available, regardless of whether it is optimal do to so from a combat perspective. If, on the other hand, I focus my ultimate usage on combat timing (e.g., Leaping a low health target), then the theoretical sustain from Battle Roar can take a significant hit. That is a considerable opportunity cost; I can either maximize my sustain, or I can maximize my combat efficiency. I cannot do both unless I get my ultimate up at precisely the moment I need it. Invariably, the 276 magicka recovery potential from Battle Roar takes a hit (usually, a very significant hit) due to combat timing.
So really, we can say that Battle Roar provides a ceiling of about 276 magicka recovery, but what it actually provides can often be significantly less.
Other classes don't really have to face the same opportunity costs, and certainly no other class has to with regard to their ultimate usage. Staying with the mNB comparison, there is no opportunity costs to Refreshing Shadows or Siphoning Attacks. Those both passively restore resources regardless of what I'm doing and do not effect my ultimate usage whatsoever. There's no real ceiling or floor to the sustain these abilities provide--as your math shows, they basically just provide what they provide assuming you're capable of recasting Siphoning Attacks every 20 seconds.
Now, of course Battle Roar also has a significant strength. It provides tremendous secondary-stat recovery (e.g., stamina sustain) for mDKs (only Accelerated Growth beats it for secondary stat sustain). But for primary stat sustain and health sustain, Battle Roar has undeniably taken too many nerfs.
One way of increasing the efficiency of Battle Roar is simply to reduce the costs of some of mDKs overpriced skills. As the poster above me points out, skills like Cinder Storm are outrageously overpriced next to comparable class AoEs. In 2014 and 2015 expensive class abilities was the price mDKs had to pay for nearly unlimited and God-like sustain achieved from converting dynamic ultimate generation into resources through Battle Roar, but those days are long gone and Battle Roar is just a shell of its former self. Yet our class abilities remain the most expensive across the board. If ZOS were to go through and look at each mDK ability and adjust its cost, the strain on Battle Roar could be greatly reduced without having to simply up the resource return on Battle Roar.
All that being said, I genuinely prefer the opportunity cost playstyle that DK offers. But ZOS needs to make the playstyle feel more feast or famine rather than just famine all the time.
True, though it's likely you still get more value from Earthen Heart than from Refreshing Shadows - in the end depends on how many mag regen bonuses you've got from gear & mundus.
I think skills like Cinder Storm just underperform in general and could use some buffs... but I wouldn't touch Flame Lash for instance - the skill already saves you magicka by becoming free every 3 seconds in PvP and twice (maximum) during Off Balance period in PvE.
Skills that could use buffs/cost reduction/whatever: Ash Cloud & morphs, Talons & morphs, Molten Weapons & morphs, Stonefist & morphs.
Molten Whip, Reflective Plate, Hardened Armor, Deep Breath, Fragmented Shield, Shattering Rocks also need big buffs.
And from stamina perspective, Venomous Claw doesn't really compare to Rending Slashes/Blood Craze in damage and usefulness (as detailed here: https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/392774/does-any-stamdk-here-feel-the-heroic-slash-nerf/p2) & Igneous Weapons is trash.
The rest are just fine I think.
Yeah I would love to see some of those underutilized abilities like Fragmented Shield and Igneous Weapons get buffed. Maybe some day.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)
If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
joaaocaampos wrote: »IZZESparkling wrote: »Especially passives need rework. So we can be like other classes where we can actually fill all the roles well.Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
@Savos_Saren
Battle Roar (Passive)If this passive is removed, then yes, Ash Cloud can cost less than 3k. But I agree with you, the cost could be lower, 4050 or 4320, for example.
- When you cast an Ultimate ability, you restore Health, Magicka and Stamina for each point of the Ultimate's cost.
jakeedmundson wrote: »Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.
EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
avg winters revenge = 4-5k
avg twisting path = 4-5k
avg ash cloud = 2-3k
jakeedmundson wrote: »Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.
EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
avg winters revenge = 4-5k
avg twisting path = 4-5k
avg ash cloud = 2-3k
Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.
jakeedmundson wrote: »Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.
EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
avg winters revenge = 4-5k
avg twisting path = 4-5k
avg ash cloud = 2-3k
Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.
jakeedmundson wrote: »Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.
EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
avg winters revenge = 4-5k
avg twisting path = 4-5k
avg ash cloud = 2-3k
Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.
5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.
You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.
They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.
jakeedmundson wrote: »Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.
EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
avg winters revenge = 4-5k
avg twisting path = 4-5k
avg ash cloud = 2-3k
Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.
5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.
You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.
They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.
Perhaps you may care to elaborate why Lightning Splash was mentioned as a way better skill then? It’s ineffecient in PvP too. I concede though it’s very strong in PvE.
jakeedmundson wrote: »Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.
EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
avg winters revenge = 4-5k
avg twisting path = 4-5k
avg ash cloud = 2-3k
Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.
5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.
You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.
They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.
Perhaps you may care to elaborate why Lightning Splash was mentioned as a way better skill then? It’s ineffecient in PvP too. I concede though it’s very strong in PvE.
Both are garbage in PvP, LL is better in PvE than Eruption.
jakeedmundson wrote: »Savos_Saren wrote: »joaaocaampos wrote: »beetleklee wrote: »I would like Eruption's cost reduced and a damage buff. Eruption takes over 10% of my magicka each rotation.
Eruption is an AoE. It costs a lot. If you use in a single mob (like a boss), I'm sorry, I completely support the high cost.
@joaaocaampos
Lightning Splash (AOE): 3405
Spear Shard (AOE): 3240
Path of Darkness (AOE): 3510
Scorch (AOE): 3240
Ash Cloud (AOE): 4590
I support balance.
Eruption has a much longer duration than these other skills.
Doesn't it also have lower tool tip damage? I could be wrong but i swear it does less dps than the other main dots in the game...
also, that longer duration just makes the rotation more of a pain in the @ $$... i have an easier time with nightblade rotations.
EDIT: just looked up some parses for each class.
Average liquid lightning = 4-6k
avg winters revenge = 4-5k
avg twisting path = 4-5k
avg ash cloud = 2-3k
Ash Cloud also adds utility because of the powerful snare, that’s why a lower damage is justified.
5m radius, It's a joke in PvP.
You don't even have to dodge roll out of that, it takes like two steps to get out of it.
They should increase the damage by 50% atleast (would still deal less DPS than Caltrops for instance) and radius to 10 meters (2m more than Caltrops). Perhaps have the damage start low, then ramp up (similar to Venomous Claw), that'd make it actually dangerous in PvP with big ticks at the end.
Perhaps you may care to elaborate why Lightning Splash was mentioned as a way better skill then? It’s ineffecient in PvP too. I concede though it’s very strong in PvE.
Both are garbage in PvP, LL is better in PvE than Eruption.
Well Duke, that brings us back to the class kit. Should the DK be able to annihilate anything in melee range while being untouchable by ranged? Because that’s what the proposed changes that get thrown around here would boil down to.