PTS Patch Notes v3.3.2

ZoM_Head

Juhasow wrote: »

ZoM_Head wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

Tyrion87 wrote: »

Alcast wrote: »

People just do not learn, do they. First test the things and then comment on the changes. Not the other way around (QQ first and then test).
ZOS also repeatedly said that they will take a look at class balance NEXT patch, not this one.

I would say: Zenimax do not learn, not players. There has been a really good, valuable and insightful feedback so far with regard to off-balance nerfs and mDK problems. All this useful feedback was not only ignored but Zenimax did the opposite thing of what people were asking for. People have full rights to be pissed right now. I don't main mDK but I know how awful these changes are for the sustain of this class in PvE. Which you can also "test" on live - just replace flame lash with molten whip and good luck with sustain that.

Sorry to say this but combat experience in this game is getting worse and worse since Morrowind and it's a common opinion. It's slow-paced, boring, unenjoyable and unsatisfying. And I don't care about their statements that "they will take a look at class balance NEXT patch" cause it will take more than 3 months from now. We can't wait that long to fix the class that will be unbearable to play. This patch does nothing but deepens the differences even more and is a proof that Zenimax completely lost its touch with the playerbase and have no idea how raids look like atm. On the other hand we can't expect them to fix things if they don't see problems that need to be fixed...

For me one thing is clear: feedback is useless and giving it people are wasting their time. It's evident Zenimax treat PTS players like free bug finders and nothing more.

My point was on the recent changes on the pts that could not have been tested yet (Obviously as PTS is still down)

I am fully aware that ZOS that a very poor job handeling balance in the game. The reason why we are in this mess in the first place is because of players QQing stuff is OP. (I am not innocent here either)

You are mistaken, the reason why we are in a mess is because they introduced the CP system "ESO 2.0" if you recall and they left so many things unchanged. They slowly started to adjust content to match and reworked skills as well as hitting certain classes without proper thinking (templar execute was never in the game till CP update if you recall). Remember how seriously stupidly the templar was in pve and pvp? How many nerfs did the mDk get in one single update? (around 12 nerfs) how the NBs were also changed radically with their ultis, passives and skills? I can go on and remind you how the stamina DKs were still dealing fire damage and how they split their CP in two trees. Or how everyone (except the mDk due to fire damage) also split between elemental defender and mighty?

How many times did ZOS changed, adjust, rework the CP system before they even increased the cap? Oh wait, we did not have a cap for a while, and you had players in cyrodiil with 800,900 and 1000CP fighting against other players with 100-300 CP.

If you consider all that and how zenimax is trying (badly i might add) to bandage the issues, obviously you will have players QQing about it, but it is not their fault. You can not seriously sit there and tell me that in any of the updates since CP was introduced back in update 6, that any skill/change/ability(CP/passive felt like the devs actually thought about it. It was rushed, untested, poorly designed and seriously faulty.

Here we are today QQing about all this because the results speak for themselves. It is not about "this is OP" or "this needs a buff", it is just the lack of the devs even trying to do something about the whole system. To me, it feels more like "just slap this change to this ability and our job is done" is what they are doing. Can you seriously say that all the devs are sitting around the table in their meeting thinking "okay let us take a look at this" or "how can we improve this"? I for one can not.

Players will always QQ about anything, small or big, but you have to admit, the state of the game is just out of control and the lack of support/dedication (at least the way i see it and feel) from Zenimax indicates that they want the easiest bandage for a massive problem, is that acceptable to you?

So in short unballanced game before CP introduction was ok but after is not ? Come on man You know perfectly there were broken builds for PvE and PvP before CP's era so dont act like it was CP's what destroyed ballance.

The game was unbalanced and silly before the CP system. Do you recall how staff skills required you to have gear boosting magicka AND weapon damage? Lash was useless for the mDK, it was scaling from max magicka and weapon damage and weapon crit. mDks were running crushing shock and then moved to force pulse (after the nerf) and has a 3 piece jewelry set for adding weapon damage. Hell we had dynamic ulti regen, which favoured the mDK because an ulti could be popped by doing nothing every 10 seconds, remember those pvp days when you say 3+ banners from 1mDK vampire? or how mSorc vampires were constantly able to keep negating flags inside keeps? or vampire emperors, 1 bat swarm, wipe 5+ people and the second swarm is ready in 3-4 seconds? a combination of unbalanced classes AND the base game (not just one of them) was the issue.

It is the same for Stamina players, you virtually had non in pve or pvp. Those that were stamina used no class skills for damage at all. Hell even killers blade, despite it costing stamina, was scaling off of spell damage because it was a class ability, and back then class abilities were mixed between stamina and magica.

Yes update 6 (when CP was introduced) finally fixed all these issues, surprisingly Zenimax did a good job in making magicka skills cost magicka (and scale from max magicka, spell damage and spell crits) and the same for stamina skills.

The CP system, despite it fixed one of the base game mechanics as explained/reminded above, was faulty from the start. As i mentioned magicka classes had to spread their CP between two trees, when stamina did not. They moved, changed, removed and adjusted a lot of CP passives.

I never said the game was balanced before, what i did say is that the introduction of the CP system IN COMBINATION with the massive nerfs, buffs and changes with all the classes have essentially made things a lot more complicated AND STILL unbalanced. The only good that came from the CP update was the fixes (as explained above) to the base skills.

No game will ever be truly balanced, but you can get somewhat close to it. The way things are going since the introduction of the CP system, it is becoming more clear that ZOS does not want the mDK to be remotely viable to how a melee build (high risk high reward and Zenimax says). You have ranged classes doing more AOE dps and on top of that more survivability (remember how long dragon blood was useless in pve and pvp? took only 1.5 years for ZOS to do something about it) more mobility and executes.

Till this day since the Morrowind DLC, end game pve take a stamina melee player over a mDK anytime. Dots hit harder, they take 25% less damage from AOEs (every stamina build runs blade cloak), stronger hitting ultis, better survivability (mainly due to dodge, but they can also die just as fast if they are careless) and do more burst damage than a mDK will do any day of the week.

Or, just run with 4 mSorcs and 4mNbs and you will have 20K+ shield surviving sorcs and 4K+ heals per second NBs to cover everyone's behind in a raid. But leave the Warden, mDK and Templar out completely. Yeah, you were saying something about balance?

Sureshawt

Overall looks like a really good patch.

Still surprised Warden is not getting any balance adjustments. I know that new classes are typically OP to get certain...ahem...players to buy the content but I think they have had a nice long run as an over-performing class. Time to take a look at tuning them down a tad.

Edit: I speak strictly from a PvP perspective as I don't know anything about high end PvE content.

Kalante

i love how most people crying in this thread are magicka players who need their undogeables and snares. oooooh i can't snare someone for 70% whaaaaa whaaaa whaaaaaaaaaaaa or xv1 waaaahahhahhahahahahahah

l2p son

Nox_Noir

Yubarius

Shinshadow wrote: »

@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_Wrobel @ZOS_JessicaFolsom Can we PLEASE get the cruel flurry bug looked at and fixed?? I feel like it is a slap in the face to all stam users that have done maelstrom to get virtually useless weapons.

What is the bug?

Put

Quantum_V wrote: »

Powerlash being undodgeable should be maintained. It was what made mDKs one of the most mechanically elaborate classes in the game.

The first instinctive reaction to when you're rooted is to rolldodge, that's what most people do. You'd be punished by being impatient as you'd get whiped by powerlash if you carelessly rolldodged without thinking . If you were a skilled player you'd block the powerlash before rolldodging. It took more skill to fight an mDK... all I see now is every single powerlash being dodged after a root, like every. single. one. of. them.

Please think about this change thouroughly, as this skill being undodgeable made mDK unique and gave it some viability as everyone rolldodges once their rooted.

Thanks.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Wrobel

I'm sorry but I keep seeing you everywhere acting like Magic DK is finished, your class has barely been hit. Magic DK is a DoT character at it's core, the whip is the equivalent of a spectral bow - risk/reward. You have huge pressure and CC's without whip, you have an amazing ultimate which gives you a damage shield and you have great passives. You don't see nightblades moaning when they miss a spectral bow - which is very easy to miss for how hard it is to use effectively in PvP.

What you are saying is that the old whip created a skill gap for the people fighting against Magic DK's, the new whip creates a skill gap for Magic DK's which they very much needed because in my opinion it's much easier to play a Magic DK effectively than say a Stam DK (Note how I say effectively which doesn't include turtle-tanking on a stam DK)

PvE I can agree that MagDK's are finished but I'm getting bored with this PvP talk.

Moloch1514

I'm loving all of the Dev feedback this PTS cycle. /s

IZZEFlameLash

Put wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Powerlash being undodgeable should be maintained. It was what made mDKs one of the most mechanically elaborate classes in the game.

The first instinctive reaction to when you're rooted is to rolldodge, that's what most people do. You'd be punished by being impatient as you'd get whiped by powerlash if you carelessly rolldodged without thinking . If you were a skilled player you'd block the powerlash before rolldodging. It took more skill to fight an mDK... all I see now is every single powerlash being dodged after a root, like every. single. one. of. them.

Please think about this change thouroughly, as this skill being undodgeable made mDK unique and gave it some viability as everyone rolldodges once their rooted.

Thanks.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Wrobel

I'm sorry but I keep seeing you everywhere acting like Magic DK is finished, your class has barely been hit. Magic DK is a DoT character at it's core, the whip is the equivalent of a spectral bow - risk/reward. You have huge pressure and CC's without whip, you have an amazing ultimate which gives you a damage shield and you have great passives. You don't see nightblades moaning when they miss a spectral bow - which is very easy to miss for how hard it is to use effectively in PvP.

What you are saying is that the old whip created a skill gap for the people fighting against Magic DK's, the new whip creates a skill gap for Magic DK's which they very much needed because in my opinion it's much easier to play a Magic DK effectively than say a Stam DK (Note how I say effectively which doesn't include turtle-tanking on a stam DK)

PvE I can agree that MagDK's are finished but I'm getting bored with this PvP talk.

Yeah, good luck with that DoT/tank idea. MDK currently is neither.

Edit: Also... plot twist. DK Passive is outdated ever since Imperial City. Getting more outdated every patch. Then Morrowind nerfed already not so great passive.

Mgghool

DK changes are pretty much unreasonable. Thx a lot for “balancing”.
Edited for censorship - Did not know that my profesional diagnosis of intelectual capabilities of balancing staff is considered inapropriate

Agalloch

I hope ZOS play their game. But after these changes on PTS ..or since Morrowind...the proof is they're not .


Ok..people adapt...but there are too many things changed with no explanation..no argument.


The huge nerfs of dks with no argument is the best proof that ZOS are not playing their game,

I know many people already said ..but MDK should be removed from the game after these nerfs. Remove our dks and give

us mag sorcs in exchange.

Thanks.


English is not my native language.

Mgghool

DDuke wrote: »

Awesome patch notes all around.

As someone who plays mDK in PvP, the infinite Power Lashes needed to be toned down & having them be dodgeable is just fair - they're waaaaay too strong against dodge roll oriented builds on Live currently.


Also, regarding this note:

Plague Slinger: Fixed an issue where the projectiles fired from this Item Set’s proc were removing enemies from stealth or invisibility.

...does this fix work the other way around as well?

I.e. if I'm a Nightblade using this set and it procs, will my own proc still pull me out of stealth @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

It says it no longer removes enemies from stealth or invisibility, so just thought I'd ask.

As someone who does not care about pvp and play magDK in PVE I am not feeling aby better by your comment. It is nice for you, that you find the changes agreeable, but fixing one part of the gane sacrificing the other is plainly wrong. And lets face it constant whining of pvpers is making game worse for pvers. So thank you sooo much and you can be proud. You did it!

DDuke

Mgghool wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

Awesome patch notes all around.

As someone who plays mDK in PvP, the infinite Power Lashes needed to be toned down & having them be dodgeable is just fair - they're waaaaay too strong against dodge roll oriented builds on Live currently.


Also, regarding this note:

Plague Slinger: Fixed an issue where the projectiles fired from this Item Set’s proc were removing enemies from stealth or invisibility.

...does this fix work the other way around as well?

I.e. if I'm a Nightblade using this set and it procs, will my own proc still pull me out of stealth @ZOS_GinaBruno ?

It says it no longer removes enemies from stealth or invisibility, so just thought I'd ask.

As someone who does not care about pvp and play magDK in PVE I am not feeling aby better by your comment. It is nice for you, that you find the changes agreeable, but fixing one part of the gane sacrificing the other is plainly wrong. And lets face it constant whining of pvpers is making game worse for pvers. So thank you sooo much and you can be proud. You did it!

I get your concerns, I do hope they increase mDK viability in PvE (I also PvE a lot, though mostly on my stamblade). But as you said:

fixing one part of the gane sacrificing the other is plainly wrong

...they can't make changes that are good for PvE, but unbalance PvP even more.


How they could fix some mDK issues is by addressing the Molten Whip morph and making it more of a "PvE morph".

It's also worth noting that mDK are getting some sustain help in this update; not just the increased CP cap, but also the double resource restoration from heavy attacks - that can be worth up to around 6k magicka every 15-20s.

Surak73

Put wrote: »

I'm sorry but I keep seeing you everywhere acting like Magic DK is finished, your class has barely been hit. Magic DK is a DoT character at it's core, the whip is the equivalent of a spectral bow - risk/reward. You have huge pressure and CC's without whip, you have an amazing ultimate which gives you a damage shield and you have great passives. You don't see nightblades moaning when they miss a spectral bow - which is very easy to miss for how hard it is to use effectively in PvP.

Did you mean "which was", didn't you? Cause with the new patch there is nothing of risk/reward with spectral arrow anymore, there is only a secure reward with a tremendous burst...

Edrein

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

The look of the Telvanni Master Wizard Costume now matches what’s advertised in the Crown Store image.

So what exactly does this mean? Can we finally dye the trim any color other than red? Because I'm sure that is the biggest complaint everyone has had about the costume. Not being able to dye that killed it for me, otherwise it's a great looking costume and reminds me of the original Morrowind's daedric armor.

Put

IZZESparkling wrote: »

Put wrote: »

Quantum_V wrote: »

Powerlash being undodgeable should be maintained. It was what made mDKs one of the most mechanically elaborate classes in the game.

The first instinctive reaction to when you're rooted is to rolldodge, that's what most people do. You'd be punished by being impatient as you'd get whiped by powerlash if you carelessly rolldodged without thinking . If you were a skilled player you'd block the powerlash before rolldodging. It took more skill to fight an mDK... all I see now is every single powerlash being dodged after a root, like every. single. one. of. them.

Please think about this change thouroughly, as this skill being undodgeable made mDK unique and gave it some viability as everyone rolldodges once their rooted.

Thanks.
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_Wrobel

I'm sorry but I keep seeing you everywhere acting like Magic DK is finished, your class has barely been hit. Magic DK is a DoT character at it's core, the whip is the equivalent of a spectral bow - risk/reward. You have huge pressure and CC's without whip, you have an amazing ultimate which gives you a damage shield and you have great passives. You don't see nightblades moaning when they miss a spectral bow - which is very easy to miss for how hard it is to use effectively in PvP.

What you are saying is that the old whip created a skill gap for the people fighting against Magic DK's, the new whip creates a skill gap for Magic DK's which they very much needed because in my opinion it's much easier to play a Magic DK effectively than say a Stam DK (Note how I say effectively which doesn't include turtle-tanking on a stam DK)

PvE I can agree that MagDK's are finished but I'm getting bored with this PvP talk.

Yeah, good luck with that DoT/tank idea. MDK currently is neither.

Edit: Also... plot twist. DK Passive is outdated ever since Imperial City. Getting more outdated every patch. Then Morrowind nerfed already not so great passive.

Both DK's were fine before morrowind, I don't think they have been dated since Imp city. They are just the hardest class to balance so Zenimax decided to make the DK v2 (Warden) and pray everyone forgets about DK's

RandomName123

Moloch1514 wrote: »

I'm loving all of the Dev feedback this PTS cycle. /s

I'm sure it's hard for them to provide honest logical feedback when it's so clear they have no idea what they are doing... Otherwise they'd be interacting with us, listening, and providing more feedback, doing more iterations. They just don't know how to do it and/or what direction they want for some of these classes. They have never done a proper rebalancing. It's all so half a$$ed.. it's never been looked at in totality and with serious effort. It always takes the very very backseat to some DLC. They just don't care, especially PvP. They definitely do not play their game in any serious capacity. </rant>

TheMystid

maboleth wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

what about using an snare or a CC before your ultimate? The soul assult snare was brutal and removed counterplay

That means wasting another slot for a cc ability, as a mag sorc. Frags no longer stun, SA will no longer stun. Besides, stamina people easily break CC in pvp. SA snare effectively countered those fast, erratic NBs.

SA was brutal mostly to those who didn't know how to counter it. It was effective most of the time, as all ultis should. (though use it wrong - near obstacle and you will be out of any ulti points with zero damage!) Reducing the snare is one thing but going from 70% to 0% is just nonsense.

Plus it was a nice rewarded ultimate, unlocked to those who actually played the game and finished the main quest.

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

So for PvE doesn't off balance last 4 seconds and power lash cooldown is 3 seconds, so now dragonknights get to have 2 free casts every 15-20 seconds or you can choose if you want to heavy attack

oh boi i'm gonna go grind one up right now, it's way too powerful.

Amazing what such a terrible patch Morrowind turned out to be and ruined the game in many aspects that has taken up to almost a year now to correct, and one class is still unplayable in PvE so it's not even fixed yet. It's going to take over a damn year.

Well said, whoever came up with some of the major morrowind changes should be removed from making anymore balance decisions. Game is dropping like a rock in how fun it is to play now patch after patch. Glad they are doing the outfit system because decorating homes and characters is the most enjoyable part of the game anymore.

Agree 100%. Post Morrowind this game is collapsing. Every single good change comes always with 10 bad ones.

Not including bugs.

Either ZOS needs a better team or just doesnt give a gdf.

TheMystid

GC0 wrote: »

Make soul assault bashable, it'll still be hard to deal with everywhere else when there is nowhere to LoS it. RIP magdk. Nice a 7th legion nerf.

Again with this "make an ultimate interruptable" joke?

Turn your brain on

TheMystid

Juhasow wrote: »

Since Flame Lash morph is getting nerfed maybe it's finally time to look at the Molten Whip spell/wep dmg vaule due to fact it was not changed since Tamriel Unlimited reballancing. It would be really ok and I think in current state of the game not too strong for mag DK's to have 150-200 more spell dmg to all flame dmg abilities instead of 100 wep/spell dmg to Ardent Flame abilities.

Yes! Give us another useless skill for stamdk!

bloodthirstyvampire

Do we have a date for dragon bones i know its feb but what day

usmcjdking

TheMystid wrote: »

GC0 wrote: »

Make soul assault bashable, it'll still be hard to deal with everywhere else when there is nowhere to LoS it. RIP magdk. Nice a 7th legion nerf.

Again with this "make an ultimate interruptable" joke?

Turn your brain on

Toxic Barrage costs almost 2x as much as soul assault and is dodgeable & bashable.

Ydrisselle

bloodthirstyvampire wrote: »

Do we have a date for dragon bones i know its feb but what day

Not yet.

Sabbathius

I really want to know what ZOS's vision for DK class is, at this point.

On fundamental level, the class has a number of very obvious issues. Unlike other classes, it cannot DPS and heal at the same time. This is not to say that the class has no healing abilities, it does, but the way they work isn't ideal. Try doing something easy like vMA on a magNB and magDK, and you'll immediately feel the difference. NB will get steady healing while DPSing without doing anything special. Same with magSorc, which along with magNB is considered to be the easiest 2 classes to run vMA with. But DK? Not so much. I would love to see the same dev (preferably someone who has a hand in balancing classes) do a quick vMA run or magSorc/magBlade, and then a run on magDK. Just the score and time alone will be pretty clear indicator that things are off. And you can't blame "game isn't balanced for 1v1" when you are doing content purely intended for solo. If the class doesn't work well there, it doesn't work anywhere.

The class has no execute. Which would be fine, if the gameplay supported slow-and-steady combat. Instead, especially in PvP, burst is king. If you guys are dead-set on DoTs for DKs, bring in some executioner DoTs (e.g. Poison Injection).

The class has no/low mobility. Yes, there's Empowered Chains, which is extremely buggy on any kind of even slightly uneven terrain. Just fixing it so that it actually works would go a long way, but it's been bugged for a very, very, very, very, very long time and no fix in sight. Not to mention that this skill itself is completely nonsensical, logically speaking. Why get Major Expedition AFTER you charge your target and are standing face to face with it? That is literally the situation where you need Major Expedition the least. Now, putting Major Expedition on Reflecting Scales? Perfectly sensible - making it a good escape and gap closer/mobility while surviving. The cost and 6 sec duration would keep it from becoming overbearing, like Warden's bird wings. But putting it on a charge skill was just a complete muppet show. But here it is, and here it stays?

The stand-your-ground approach may have been feasible back when Flames of Oblivion was an actual AoE that actually hurt, and when Reflective Scales actually reflected most things for the entire duration without a projectile count. But in current game, where things like Warden birds can't be reflected, and Force Shock is a beam now, standing your ground gets you killed. And speaking of beams, I can lend you guys a mirror and a laser pointer, so you can see what happens when a beam hits a reflector, it's fascinating! Not to mention, once again, the cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DK has some of the priciest abilities in the game. Does that come with best sustain in the game? Not since you gutted sustain last year. Which, lest we forget, many people still passionately dislike because heavy attack meta is as slow and tedious as it gets.

And last but not least, the lack of range. Can we agree once and for all that being able to attack your target from 0-28 meters away without any loss of DPS is hands-down superior, in every respect, than only being able to attack your target from 0-7 meters away, or suffer a significant DPS loss? What compensation is there for that restriction? Because currently mDKs are most certainly not welcome in vet trials. Too much of a liability. Again, perhaps more mobility would be a good solution - allow DKs to move out of harm's way and back in position? Alternative would be to grant them enough burst defense to survive anything without moving, but I know you guys hate it when people game the fight mechanics, and that would make it all too easy to skip many of those. But without on-demand mobility and burst survivability, while retaining short range requirements, just leaves DKs in a very weird place in a non-tank role.

Speaking of roles. When was the last time you guys seen a DK healer? Especially in a vet trial? When was the last time you saw someone using Cauterize and Obsidian Shard, in endgame competitive setting? Can this be considered a balanced situation? Though DKs are not alone in this, when was the last time you see a competitive vet trial group running a Sorc or NB main tank? That whole situation needs to be addressed. Some time ago someone at ZOS (I forget who) alluded that they really liked what they did with the Warden - a clear DPS tree, healing tree and tank tree, and that other classes should move closer to that. Well then, do it! This will have a positive ripple effect as well. People often complain about the lack of tanks, but it's also accepted that raid main tanks are to be DKs and to a lesser degree Wardens. And not everyone plays a DK or a Warden. So right there, you've eliminated 3/5ths of players from the equation. Bringing balance to the roles (tanking, DPS and healing) would go a long way in improving the situation.

At this point, I honestly don't know what you want this class to be, or how you expect it to perform any role outside of tanking. And even that you mess with, by changing the costs in the upcoming patch. Make up your mind, and make some changes. It also feels like you have a major disconnect between Balancing team and Combat team? That is, combat team makes changes to mechanics, but balancing team fails to react in time, and things end up being broken, bordering on unplayable? Something to ponder.

Soul_Demon

•Flame Lash (Lava Whip morph): The Power Lash attack from this morph now has a 3 second cooldown.
•Lava Whip: This ability and its morphs no longer have a cooldown when they can set the enemy target Off Balance. Striking a stunned or immobile enemy will always set them Off Balance.

So, the morph ALREADY had a cooldown of 5 secs on setting player off balance- and you need to hit during that time to get "powerlash" in the first place....the skill needs to be used twice in a row to be functional.

And you introduce a 3 sec cooldown to the useful part of skill and allow no cooldown on setting off balance to get "powerlash" ......you just cant use it when they are off balance now because it will be on cooldown. We cant get the damage BUT we can now set off balance ALL the time. WTF?

Do you think DK's will run around setting players off balance all day? Why put cooldown on something that by design ALREADY HAS to be used back to back to get that damage and then take off cool down for setting them off balance- was that just to frustrate DK's "wow, they are off balance- too bad this is on cool down now and I cant use it"

ak_pvp

Sabbathius wrote: »

I really want to know what ZOS's vision for DK class is, at this point.

On fundamental level, the class has a number of very obvious issues. Unlike other classes, it cannot DPS and heal at the same time. This is not to say that the class has no healing abilities, it does, but the way they work isn't ideal. Try doing something easy like vMA on a magNB and magDK, and you'll immediately feel the difference. NB will get steady healing while DPSing without doing anything special. Same with magSorc, which along with magNB is considered to be the easiest 2 classes to run vMA with. But DK? Not so much. I would love to see the same dev (preferably someone who has a hand in balancing classes) do a quick vMA run or magSorc/magBlade, and then a run on magDK. Just the score and time alone will be pretty clear indicator that things are off. And you can't blame "game isn't balanced for 1v1" when you are doing content purely intended for solo. If the class doesn't work well there, it doesn't work anywhere.

The class has no execute. Which would be fine, if the gameplay supported slow-and-steady combat. Instead, especially in PvP, burst is king. If you guys are dead-set on DoTs for DKs, bring in some executioner DoTs (e.g. Poison Injection).

The class has no/low mobility. Yes, there's Empowered Chains, which is extremely buggy on any kind of even slightly uneven terrain. Just fixing it so that it actually works would go a long way, but it's been bugged for a very, very, very, very, very long time and no fix in sight. Not to mention that this skill itself is completely nonsensical, logically speaking. Why get Major Expedition AFTER you charge your target and are standing face to face with it? That is literally the situation where you need Major Expedition the least. Now, putting Major Expedition on Reflecting Scales? Perfectly sensible - making it a good escape and gap closer/mobility while surviving. The cost and 6 sec duration would keep it from becoming overbearing, like Warden's bird wings. But putting it on a charge skill was just a complete muppet show. But here it is, and here it stays?

The stand-your-ground approach may have been feasible back when Flames of Oblivion was an actual AoE that actually hurt, and when Reflective Scales actually reflected most things for the entire duration without a projectile count. But in current game, where things like Warden birds can't be reflected, and Force Shock is a beam now, standing your ground gets you killed. And speaking of beams, I can lend you guys a mirror and a laser pointer, so you can see what happens when a beam hits a reflector, it's fascinating! Not to mention, once again, the cost. Correct me if I'm wrong, but DK has some of the priciest abilities in the game. Does that come with best sustain in the game? Not since you gutted sustain last year. Which, lest we forget, many people still passionately dislike because heavy attack meta is as slow and tedious as it gets.

And last but not least, the lack of range. Can we agree once and for all that being able to attack your target from 0-28 meters away without any loss of DPS is hands-down superior, in every respect, than only being able to attack your target from 0-7 meters away, or suffer a significant DPS loss? What compensation is there for that restriction? Because currently mDKs are most certainly not welcome in vet trials. Too much of a liability. Again, perhaps more mobility would be a good solution - allow DKs to move out of harm's way and back in position? Alternative would be to grant them enough burst defense to survive anything without moving, but I know you guys hate it when people game the fight mechanics, and that would make it all too easy to skip many of those. But without on-demand mobility and burst survivability, while retaining short range requirements, just leaves DKs in a very weird place in a non-tank role.

Speaking of roles. When was the last time you guys seen a DK healer? Especially in a vet trial? When was the last time you saw someone using Cauterize and Obsidian Shard, in endgame competitive setting? Can this be considered a balanced situation? Though DKs are not alone in this, when was the last time you see a competitive vet trial group running a Sorc or NB main tank? That whole situation needs to be addressed. Some time ago someone at ZOS (I forget who) alluded that they really liked what they did with the Warden - a clear DPS tree, healing tree and tank tree, and that other classes should move closer to that. Well then, do it! This will have a positive ripple effect as well. People often complain about the lack of tanks, but it's also accepted that raid main tanks are to be DKs and to a lesser degree Wardens. And not everyone plays a DK or a Warden. So right there, you've eliminated 3/5ths of players from the equation. Bringing balance to the roles (tanking, DPS and healing) would go a long way in improving the situation.

At this point, I honestly don't know what you want this class to be, or how you expect it to perform any role outside of tanking. And even that you mess with, by changing the costs in the upcoming patch. Make up your mind, and make some changes. It also feels like you have a major disconnect between Balancing team and Combat team? That is, combat team makes changes to mechanics, but balancing team fails to react in time, and things end up being broken, bordering on unplayable? Something to ponder.

I agree on most, except the first point. Embers and power whip allowed for some easy healing whilst damaging. The CD on power whip will just badly in vMA.

For range they need to make wings per target, but back to 4s and maybe 3 projectiles per target.

Expedition isn't needed either. Dk isn't and shouldnt be a fast class. But it shouldnt be as permasnared as it is now. Unless you are in mist or using fm you will be snared like heck. So the less damage morph of wings should remove snare.

AardvarkChips

Astrid_V wrote: »

As a Magblade I feel sorry for all of you guys who play magicka DK as main character...
I hope Wrobel will finally open his eyes and see how bad this situation is...

@ZOS_Wrobel doesn't care, as long as the money flows in.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

@bigdavid11b16_ESO that's what ESO+ is for.

Sabbathius

ak_pvp wrote: »

I agree on most, except the first point. Embers and power whip allowed for some easy healing whilst damaging. The CD on power whip will just badly in vMA.

The main problem with Burning Embers and Power Whip is that both are delayed heals, not ongoing heals. Burning Embers will only heal when the target dies, or duration runs out, or it gets refreshed. The heal isn't ongoing. Same with Power Whip, it requires a setup, you can't just press one button willy-nilly without a proc or prep and get immediate healing while DPSing.

By comparison, a Sorc will be getting passive healing while DPSing from things like Blood Magic, Critical Surge, etc. A Nightblade will be getting passive healing while DPSing from things like Strife, Refreshing Path, Sap Essence, etc., all of which have an ongoing heal component on top of DPS component. Templar from Sweeps, etc.

It's not that DKs have no healing, it's that it's very awkward compared to almost passive healing while DPSing of other classes. Just looking at VMA scoreboards is pretty telling, in this regard. The two classes who are best at it, Sorcs and NBs, are pretty high up there. Meanwhile DKs not so much. In fact, DK and Templar are usually at the bottom because Templar's Sweeps are also melee range, which is also quite restrictive. But at least it's immediate and requires no prep (the way Power Whip does).

At least that's been my experience.

As far as Major Expedition goes, my main point is that if they give one to DKs, putting it on the charge ability isn't a good place to put it. Though apparently some PvPers disagree and find it useful. It's just running really fast immediately following a gap closer hasn't been very useful for me. And in PvE where mobs don't kite it's pretty much dead. Not to mention that often you could use Major Expedition, but charging the only available enemy isn't safe at the time, which makes it a moot point. Whereas sticking it on something like Reflective Scale would allow movement regardless of targets present. The same way Warden wings and Nightblade's Path and Sorc's Storm work. Templar is largely in the same boat as DK, but at least they can purge cheaply and heal on demand.

maboleth

TheMystid wrote: »

maboleth wrote: »

ManDraKE wrote: »

what about using an snare or a CC before your ultimate? The soul assult snare was brutal and removed counterplay

That means wasting another slot for a cc ability, as a mag sorc. Frags no longer stun, SA will no longer stun. Besides, stamina people easily break CC in pvp. SA snare effectively countered those fast, erratic NBs.

SA was brutal mostly to those who didn't know how to counter it. It was effective most of the time, as all ultis should. (though use it wrong - near obstacle and you will be out of any ulti points with zero damage!) Reducing the snare is one thing but going from 70% to 0% is just nonsense.

Plus it was a nice rewarded ultimate, unlocked to those who actually played the game and finished the main quest.

xaraan wrote: »

Nifty2g wrote: »

So for PvE doesn't off balance last 4 seconds and power lash cooldown is 3 seconds, so now dragonknights get to have 2 free casts every 15-20 seconds or you can choose if you want to heavy attack

oh boi i'm gonna go grind one up right now, it's way too powerful.

Amazing what such a terrible patch Morrowind turned out to be and ruined the game in many aspects that has taken up to almost a year now to correct, and one class is still unplayable in PvE so it's not even fixed yet. It's going to take over a damn year.

Well said, whoever came up with some of the major morrowind changes should be removed from making anymore balance decisions. Game is dropping like a rock in how fun it is to play now patch after patch. Glad they are doing the outfit system because decorating homes and characters is the most enjoyable part of the game anymore.

Agree 100%. Post Morrowind this game is collapsing. Every single good change comes always with 10 bad ones.

Actually no. No matter how I oppose the Soul Assault change, the game is so much more balanced since Morrowind patch.

Better spread of CPs, better usage of traits, better usage of mundus stones, better armour balancing, better behaving of certain abused monster sets - to name a few. Some people fail to see that or are opposed to any change unless it's benefiting THEM, but that's their problem.

Savos_Saren

As for the Major Expedition tied to Chains for a DK:

Yeah, it doesn't make much sense. You're gap closing... so it's kind of wasted. I love using Chains- but I feel like a major expedition buff on that skill line is pointless.

It would be more beneficial if ZoS put Major Expedition on a skill like Wings, Stone Fist, or Molten Weapons. It would actually make more sense on Stone Fist (since you'd be able to stun a target and then run up to them) or Molten Weapons (since this applies to StamDKs and MagDKs)