...and why Necromancers?

cabbageub17_ESO

terrordactyl1971 wrote: »

What happens to the frame rate when everyone is standing at the bank with 4 summoned skeletons each ?

Pets should auto unsummon in cities.

eso_lags

honestly eso sucks when it comes to classes. compared to wow which has like 11 or 12, bdo which has like 15 (and more on the way), archeage which has i think 120, and gw2 which has 9... I mean 5 classes is pretty underwhelming and, besides the MASSIVE GAME BREAKING LAG, one of the few things i find that the devs went wrong with. So the more classes the better.

and again balance isnt here so what harm will it do? all i see is more fun and variety.

SilverIce58

itzTJ wrote: »

honestly eso sucks when it comes to classes. compared to wow which has like 11 or 12, bdo which has like 15 (and more on the way), archeage which has i think 120, and gw2 which has 9... I mean 5 classes is pretty underwhelming and, besides the MASSIVE GAME BREAKING LAG, one of the few things i find that the devs went wrong with. So the more classes the better.

and again balance isnt here so what harm will it do? all i see is more fun and variety.

Are the only people who really care about balance PvPers? I mean, this isn't like TERA where the Slayer class hits like a wet noodle (which, that class needs a rework badly).

Iccotak

Wing wrote: »

I was once one of those people that didn't get why people wanted necromancer so much, it always came up as a requested thing and I just didn't understand it. . .

. . .recently I got diablo 3 and decided I would play a necromancer despite the fact that historically I don't like pet builds, they tend to take power away from the player and dump it into dumb pets with dumber AI.

I now want a necromancer in ESO, I am currently leveling a vampire magicka NB because that's as close as I can get to my blood mage in ESO ( I run a trag'oul blood nova / corpse lance build if anyone was curious)

This is what I DON'T want from ESO.
If you want a necromancer like Diablo go play Diablo.
How Elder Scrolls treats Necromancy and the surrounding lore of that subject is almost completely different than what Diablo does.

Seriously, if the Necromancer class is like the one in Diablo, I will be severely disappointed by the lack of creativity.

Iccotak

itzTJ wrote: »

honestly eso sucks when it comes to classes. compared to wow which has like 11 or 12, bdo which has like 15 (and more on the way), archeage which has i think 120, and gw2 which has 9... I mean 5 classes is pretty underwhelming and, besides the MASSIVE GAME BREAKING LAG, one of the few things i find that the devs went wrong with. So the more classes the better.

and again balance isnt here so what harm will it do? all i see is more fun and variety.

So the amount of classes is what determines quality?
The point of classes in ESO is that they are a starting point but you have an incredible amount of freedom when building your character

Nerouyn

Iccotak wrote: »

I am genuinely curious why we have this class system instead of classic Elder Scroll Magic schools?

There's never been any mystery about this.

Someone in ZO is barking mad and thought that the way to appeal to both the twenty+ million players who bought Skyrim and the similarly sized pool of MMO players was to split the difference - classes + some shared skill lines.

Not surprisingly the result wasn't immensely pleasing to either group of players and even with free trials and colossal discounts ESO is still nowhere near as popular as Skyrim. In addition to an unappetizing compromise the way they did it split nearly all of the game's magic between classes. So magic lovers can't play like they did in the single player games. And because all classes use magic it forces magic on everyone, and that's not to everyone's tastes. Theoretically you can ignore class abilities but you are penalized for that choice in missing out on resource regeneration and buffs.

FoulSnowpaw

Sorcerers already summon Daedra. Why people have crazy ideas of having Sorcs being able to summon even more pets than they already have....

Like can you imagine everyone using an undead army to fight each other in pvp... it's gonna be like pokemon except uglier. The whole idea of strategy is wiped off the counter because everyone is gonna be using undead to do all the work and there's no way you gonna run through those undead without being dead...

And with the amount of lag that the servers can barely handle from people's floating pets all over the place I don't think ZOS wants another pet class. People crash all the time because of pets, bankers, merchants, fences, and summonings from every single player in the game.

Iccotak

Nerouyn wrote: »

Iccotak wrote: »

I am genuinely curious why we have this class system instead of classic Elder Scroll Magic schools?

There's never been any mystery about this.

Someone in ZO is barking mad and thought that the way to appeal to both the twenty+ million players who bought Skyrim and the similarly sized pool of MMO players was to split the difference - classes + some shared skill lines.

Not surprisingly the result wasn't immensely pleasing to either group of players and even with free trials and colossal discounts ESO is still nowhere near as popular as Skyrim. In addition to an unappetizing compromise the way they did it split nearly all of the game's magic between classes. So magic lovers can't play like they did in the single player games. And because all classes use magic it forces magic on everyone, and that's not to everyone's tastes. Theoretically you can ignore class abilities but you are penalized for that choice in missing out on resource regeneration and buffs.

This exactly points out one of my major problems with ESO class system. Everyone HAS to be a caster.

I go in depth on that topic here

srnekro

Here's a couple of breaking news here fellas.

1st, this ain't skyrim. It's ESO. The difference is one is a sandbox single player, and other is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, which needs several varietys of classes (besides the common skill lines) to make the game going.

2nd Just because you fear/dislike Necromancers, you don't need to create one. Just don't. I don't like seeing some classes on pvp because they are overwelming broken, but that's just the way it is, right? Why just point the fingers at Necromancers? The class isn't even creat it and people already saying it'ts broken.
Have some faith on ZoS. And I am sure, IF they will make a Necromancer, would be 100% different from Diablo.

3rd, With all that has been said in this thread, about the differences of Sorcerers and Necromancer, I just gona feel sad about the people who came here from nowwhere and just starts vomiting crap about they being the same. Honestly, just read a couple of comments that are here.

Chilly-McFreeze

FoulSnowpaw wrote: »

And with the amount of lag that the servers can barely handle from people's floating pets all over the place I don't think ZOS wants another pet class. People crash all the time because of pets, bankers, merchants, fences, and summonings from every single player in the game.

Oh, after people screamed "CP is what causes PVP lag", after it was the display of friendly AoEs, now it's bankers, merchants and fences? Those who can't even be summoned in cyrodiil? Nah, most people don't even play a pet sorc and still there are crashes, even in spots where no one is around. Don't excuse bad coding and weak servers with summoned pets to push your own agenda. If the server can't handle another AI it might be the server's fault.

Aisle9

SilverIce58 wrote: »

While I am on the side of those who want Necromancy as just a skill line (so we don't have to make ANOTHER new character), I'd just like to point out that necromancy, according to lore, is only illegal if you're part of the Mage's Guild. Vans Galerion hates anything to do with necromancy (including soul trap), and the Mage's Guild has outlawed it. BUT, in every other province, it's either totally legal, or just looked down upon. In morrowind (the place not the game), it's heavily frowned upon to raise fellow dunmer, but other races (especially the more beastly races) are fair game. In Cyrodiil it's perfectly legal. Black Marsh could never foster necromancer due to the swamp breaking down dead bodies asap. Hammerfell, on the other hand, is a perfect place to raise bodies as the sands keep bodies for, well, ever, altho the redguard people would never deal with anyone who raises the dead.

All in all, it'd just be better for us to have a skill line for it. 5 skills, 3-4 passives, and an ultimate.

The necromancy ban from the mage's guild was enacted in the 3rd Era by Archmage Traven (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/Necromancy_Ban_of_3E_431).

ESO "[..]is set on Tamriel in 2E 582 during the Interregnum, a period of time between the assassination of the Last Potentate, Savirien-Chorak, and the rise of Tiber Septim, where there was chaos, bloodshed, and no Emperor on the Ruby Throne.[..]" (http://elderscrolls.wikia.com/wiki/The_Elder_Scrolls_Online)

Get your lore right

srnekro wrote: »

Here's a couple of breaking news here fellas.

1st, this ain't skyrim. It's ESO. The difference is one is a sandbox single player, and other is a Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Game, which needs several varietys of classes (besides the common skill lines) to make the game going.

2nd Just because you fear/dislike Necromancers, you don't need to create one. Just don't. I don't like seeing some classes on pvp because they are overwelming broken, but that's just the way it is, right? Why just point the fingers at Necromancers? The class isn't even creat it and people already saying it'ts broken.
Have some faith on ZoS. And I am sure, IF they will make a Necromancer, would be 100% different from Diablo.

3rd, With all that has been said in this thread, about the differences of Sorcerers and Necromancer, I just gona feel sad about the people who came here from nowwhere and just starts vomiting crap about they being the same. Honestly, just read a couple of comments that are here.

1. Not if the game is designed for 4 classes. The addition of an extra class already created conflict.
2. It's not fear/dislike, we already have an example of a new class introduced and how that worked out.
3. Oh noes...

People are crying for balance, therefore let's add a new class.

Chilly-McFreeze

Aisle9 wrote: »

1. Not if the game is designed for 4 classes. The addition of an extra class already created conflict.

3. Oh noes...

People are crying for balance, therefore let's add a new class.

Could you explain [1] further? What conflict does it create? That people now have to make a choice between a templar or a warden if they want to create a good healer?

Also, are you saying that balance is only achievable with the fewest possible variables at hand?

Aisle9

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

1. Not if the game is designed for 4 classes. The addition of an extra class already created conflict.

3. Oh noes...

People are crying for balance, therefore let's add a new class.

Could you explain [1] further? What conflict does it create? That people now have to make a choice between a templar or a warden if they want to create a good healer?

Also, are you saying that balance is only achievable with the fewest possible variables at hand?

Magicka wardens (let's ignore stamwarden, since every stam dps is pretty much equalized by using a maelstrom bow) is lackluster at best as PvE dps, and still a niche for PvE tanking, while can achieve both very easily in PvP => underperforms in PvE while overperforms in PvP.

Let's analyze why: Ice based attacks proc minor maim, which is either redundant or straight up useless in any PvE group situationand, as a dps using an Ice staff as your main weapon, you end up being straight up detrimental to the group, relegating the Ice Staff among "tanking weapons". Minor Maim in PvP, instead, is one of the most powerful ways of mitigating damage (on top of Ice fortress).

I shouldn't be telling you this, because it's pretty easy to get this information on your own, but the meta for magicka DDs (PvE), as of now, consists of 2+ class dots + blockade + spammable + extra.

For example:
- magsorc = Liquid lightning, blockade, curse, scamp + heavy attack or force pulse.
- magblade = Twisting path, cripple, blockade, funnel/force pule, assassin's will.
- magplar = shards, sun fire, purifying light, blockade, sweeps
- magdk = burning embers, engulfing flames, eruption, flames of oblivion, blockade, whip

- magwarden= fetcher infection (?), winter's revenge (?)

Simply put the warden is not made for sustained damage, but rather for burst damage, on which is actually pretty strong (cliff racer, deep fissure) and damage mitigation (Ice fortress, shimmering shield, leeching vines).

Any player with a basic understanding of the game can absolutely dominate in open world PvP with a warden, but will still struggle in PvE, for some very simple reasons:

Pets are not reliable dps, unless they deal aoe damage (i.e. unstable familiar), so in practice, if you don't rely on the actual pet attack.
Ice procs maim which is either redundant or straight up useless in PvE, unlike shock and fire which proc concuss (minor vulnerability) and burning (extra dot).
Wardens lack strong class dots for sustained damage, unlike the other classes.

Now, this is not an issue for stamina wardens, since pretty much every stamina class relies on 3 things: Endless hail, Caltrops, Trap, all out of the skill lines.

If we're only considering healing, let's keep in mind that:

1) Pretty much every class can heal, even more so now that synergies are going out of skill's gcd, and DKs also have access to Major Mending.
2) Consolidated "healer" classes, such as the templar, are also strong as DDs (stamina AND magicka).
3) The warden is not bringing anything more to the table, with the exception of damage mitigation, which implies that your tank is incompetent or your DDs are unable to not stand in stupid. The addition of Major Mending for extra healing ? Only matters in PvP, since in PvE healers already overheal.

As far as warden tanks are concerned, they are still a niche. I wouldn't mind to see them getting some love, but where it counts, it's still more advantageous to use a DK. I'm not gonna get into that discussion, though.

That is imbalance.

I'm not saying balance is only achievable with the fewest variable, but rather that if you're already struggling with balance adding more variables makes it more difficult, because I think we can agree that solving a problem with fewer variables is usually easier.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

teladoy

Necromancers come in next expansion... pretty sure of that.

TheShadowScout

Sweetpea704 wrote: »

and the black, ghostly skulls. I want to cast fear on jerks with those.

Those would be an illusionist spell, not necromancy. Just sayin.
...

Not that an "illusionist" specialization for magica nightblades would be a bad thing, mind you...

itzTJ wrote: »

...So the more classes the better...

...says someone who hasn't done much with them yet, I presume?
While I agree that more -options- are always a good thing, I do not think adding more -classes- is the right way to go about this. I want options I can refit to all my old characters as well, darnit!

Iccotak wrote: »

The point of classes in ESO is that they are a starting point but you have an incredible amount of freedom when building your character

And that is where I want to add my ideas - not in adding more classes, but in adding more freedom in what you can do with them. Thus the idea to add new clasiness as "specializations" instead of just adding more classes which only the new players would fully enjoy, as the old ones would feel kinda vexed about it, both in "...what, I have to play through all of it -again-??" and in "Waaah, why was this not available back in 2014 when I made my main character, it would have been such a better fit for what I wanted to play..."

And that is why I keep coming back to the "make it a specialization / prestige class" idea. Give people more options to diversify their characters by tacking on new stuff to existing ones, instead of making people create new characters just to enjoy more options.
And by spreading the newness over all the existing classes, you give people -way- more incentive to play then just adding a new class anyhow, since the completionists will then want to try every specialization... so some may enjoy necromancing, while others might go crusading, some might specialize as spellsword while others might perhaps go for the ranger feeling... it would be more fun for -everyone-!

Chilly-McFreeze

Aisle9 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

1. Not if the game is designed for 4 classes. The addition of an extra class already created conflict.

3. Oh noes...

People are crying for balance, therefore let's add a new class.

Could you explain [1] further? What conflict does it create? That people now have to make a choice between a templar or a warden if they want to create a good healer?

Also, are you saying that balance is only achievable with the fewest possible variables at hand?

Magicka wardens (let's ignore stamwarden, since every stam dps is pretty much equalized by using a maelstrom bow) is lackluster at best as PvE dps, and still a niche for PvE tanking, while can achieve both very easily in PvP => underperforms in PvE while overperforms in PvP.

Let's analyze why: Ice based attacks proc minor maim, which is either redundant or straight up useless in any PvE group situationand, as a dps using an Ice staff as your main weapon, you end up being straight up detrimental to the group, relegating the Ice Staff among "tanking weapons". Minor Maim in PvP, instead, is one of the most powerful ways of mitigating damage (on top of Ice fortress).

I shouldn't be telling you this, because it's pretty easy to get this information on your own, but the meta for magicka DDs (PvE), as of now, consists of 2+ class dots + blockade + spammable + extra.

For example:
- magsorc = Liquid lightning, blockade, curse, scamp + heavy attack or force pulse.
- magblade = Twisting path, cripple, blockade, funnel/force pule, assassin's will.
- magplar = shards, sun fire, purifying light, blockade, sweeps
- magdk = burning embers, engulfing flames, eruption, flames of oblivion, blockade, whip

- magwarden= fetcher infection (?), winter's revenge (?)

Simply put the warden is not made for sustained damage, but rather for burst damage, on which is actually pretty strong (cliff racer, deep fissure) and damage mitigation (Ice fortress, shimmering shield, leeching vines).

Any player with a basic understanding of the game can absolutely dominate in open world PvP with a warden, but will still struggle in PvE, for some very simple reasons:

Pets are not reliable dps, unless they deal aoe damage (i.e. unstable familiar), so in practice, if you don't rely on the actual pet attack.
Ice procs maim which is either redundant or straight up useless in PvE, unlike shock and fire which proc concuss (minor vulnerability) and burning (extra dot).
Wardens lack strong class dots for sustained damage, unlike the other classes.

Now, this is not an issue for stamina wardens, since pretty much every stamina class relies on 3 things: Endless hail, Caltrops, Trap, all out of the skill lines.

If we're only considering healing, let's keep in mind that:

1) Pretty much every class can heal, even more so now that synergies are going out of skill's gcd, and DKs also have access to Major Mending.
2) Consolidated "healer" classes, such as the templar, are also strong as DDs (stamina AND magicka).
3) The warden is not bringing anything more to the table, with the exception of damage mitigation, which implies that your tank is incompetent or your DDs are unable to not stand in stupid. The addition of Major Mending for extra healing ? Only matters in PvP, since in PvE healers already overheal.

As far as warden tanks are concerned, they are still a niche. I wouldn't mind to see them getting some love, but where it counts, it's still more advantageous to use a DK. I'm not gonna get into that discussion, though.

That is imbalance.

I'm not saying balance is only achievable with the fewest variable, but rather that if you're already struggling with balance adding more variables makes it more difficult, because I think we can agree that solving a problem with fewer variables is usually easier.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

Thanks for schooling, but I know the basics pretty well.
A short "wardens are lackluster in PvE DPS (!), OK for other roles and OP in PvP" would have been enough.

However, in your essay you only prove that they are not good as pve dd. So what? They are nice healers and tanks. mDKs are good tanks and still they aren't what you bring as a vet trial healer or dd. Or have you seen a competetive sSorc healer? Is that a prove that this game is designed with fewer classes in mind? I don't think so. Every class has it's benefits and areas in which they are lacking. This game is more than just DD, DD, DD. Not every class can or should be on top of every role in every part of the game.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice if they close the gaps between the role/class combos a little bit.

So in short: here does that prove that the game is designed around 4 classes? That they *** up wardens is only a prove that they *** up wardens. Nothing else. It's just a long "they can't balance the game now, how should they do it with another class" kind of argument.

srnekro

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Interesting how fast a thread about "I want a new class" turns into "class system has to go". It's the same futile route with the hybrid threads that want to completely redesign how damage scales. Sure, it would be great but it would also lead to a completely different game. And almost 4 years going, I highly doubt that ZOS decides to scrap all the effort, game rules and mechanics they have now and turn this game upside down. And if you're honest with yourself, you know that proposals like that are withful thinking but not realistic.

However, within the game is designed now (magic schools broken up and restricted to certain classes, surely done to give each of them a different flavour and a role they shine at), what speaks against another class, e.g. Necromancer?

That they already gave "role specifics" to classes? Didn't care much when warden was introduced. ZOS already hinted that they rearrange the skill trees so everyone can do everything. However, I highly doubt that this will change the meta role/class combinations. Probably, if it comes at all, it will be like the "skill advisor", so new players can identify skill design and make builds easier.

That they already allocated elemental schools or damage types to classes? Should just as weigh as much as the designated roles. Templars and NBs already utilize magical damage. So I wouldn't be surprised if they gave the same elemental damage to several classes.

The lore aspect? Meridia is on to eradicate necromancy and stuff. However, she already ignores the protagonist being a vampire in some cases. Why is that so? Maybe because she isn't ignorant and blinded enough that she would kill off the only chance to stop the plane melt for her own agenda? And necromancy isn't forbidden at the time of ESO.

Because "I don't want to start anew" and "it should be a world skill line so everyone can use it".
From a ZOS point of few, the longer and more you play, the better. They gain more when you invest time to push up a new char instead of just having a new skill line granted.
Also it would severely limit how much and what could be put into that line. It would fall short of expectations. Plus, mind that giving everyone access to everything can cause balance problems and be a problem for diversity.

Why tho? Classes are designed with certain strengths and limitations (weaknesses) in mind. A sorc has no spam or access to many debuffs, a mDK has no execute, etc. While that is somewhat annoying, try to imagine what would happen when they have all that missing stuff all of a sudden. PvP mDK with execute, sounds like an issue, doesn't it?
So having a great skill line would raise issues. But if they make a poor world line, people would be disappointed. No win in here.

When Necromancers become a class instead, they can add good skills, passives, synergies and still put limits on it. Therefor I think it would be easier to balance, it wouldn't be bound to become a disappointment and ZOS would profit by increased playtime.

Because "they must fix everything first before adding new content" and "they couldn't balance Wardens, why should they balance Necromancers"? Putting every new content on a hold to fix things that will eventually get broken with the next DLC/ Update will kill this game off. Why should I stay at this game when there is nothing new to do? Also, there will always be an imbalance. Remember how this game was called in his early years? Elder Staffs Online. How DK where a total, unstoppable beast for some time? How mSorcs where the best PvE DD for a few months? It's on Zeni to fix this and obviously they do so, even if it takes a lot longer then we'd like sometimes.

I honestly can't see why they shouldn't add necromancers in the long run. People strife for that class, it would be a great selling argument. Question stands if they orientate towards other games with the ice/disease death knight/necromancer of if they would go a rather different way.

Just gona leave this here.

Xithian

I've never understood the logic behind all of the lore being "ZOMG, necromancy is EEEEEVIL!" and then literally using souls to power your weapons.

Pretty sure my 5% chance to fill a soulgem on a weapon kill doesn't discriminate. Plenty of bandit and worm cult souls clinking around in my bag.

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO

@srnekro to you and others who seems to have had 2 much skooma lately...necromancers will never happen for the simple fact that ZOS will have to rework sorcs daedric summoning class skill tree which in return will cause a huge amount of rage to the current players and an even larger drops from the game that will lead to a long term detriment and profit loss for the game...cuz sure necromancers will be fun for casuals that come and play for 1 month probably then they will leave as always after they spent a few $ in the game but b4 that players who were in the game already and were staying for a long time they leave and never return... that is a risk ZOS wont take...at least not now with all the flaws eso is having...besides having endless minions around you will break pvp in so many ways and since pvp doesn't actually provide any more income(if it ever did) due to the bad performance/balance/pop etc... unless a complete overhaul that for the beginning fixes the lagfest and improves all the things that should had been fixed in the past 4 years...

Chilly-McFreeze

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

@srnekro to you and others who seems to have had 2 much skooma lately...necromancers will never happen for the simple fact that ZOS will have to rework sorcs daedric summoning class skill tree which in return will cause a huge amount of rage to the current players and an even larger drops from the game that will lead to a long term detriment and profit loss for the game...cuz sure necromancers will be fun for casuals that come and play for 1 month probably then they will leave as always after they spent a few $ in the game but b4 that players who were in the game already and were staying for a long time they leave and never return... that is a risk ZOS wont take...at least not now with all the flaws eso is having...besides having endless minions around you will break pvp in so many ways and since pvp doesn't actually provide any more income(if it ever did) due to the bad performance/balance/pop etc... unless a complete overhaul that for the beginning fixes the lagfest and improves all the things that should had been fixed in the past 4 years...

I think you refer to me as one of the others. Always good to start an argument with an insult. Thumbs up, Xenowarrior92. That proves your maturity and emphasis your expertise. So let's work through this.

"necromancers will never happen for the simple fact that ZOS will have to rework sorcs daedric summoning class skill tree which in return will cause a huge amount of rage to the current players and an even larger drops from the game that will lead to a long term detriment and profit loss for the game..."

Why would the addition of another class means the redesign of the sorcerer class? Wardens are partly summoners and daedric summoning is left untouched.

Why would a rework cause a "huge amount" of players to rage and drop from the game? Nerfs, buffs, reworks happen all the time in a MMO. That's the nature of this genre. Sure, people get frustrated an some may leave, but firstly it's not unusual for MMO's to have an ebb and flow of the playerbase, not just because of changes but mostly because of it's own or other games new content/ new releases or the lack of new content.

And why would a rework of the daedric summoning skill line be a bad thing per se? Many experienced sorcs are vocal about a change to that skill line because:
-it excludes stam sorcs nearly entirely
-the pet AI is pretty lackluster
-pets are hard to control, especially on console
-half of the pets are useless once you reach higher difficulty content
-bound armor being a letdown for being a toggle and lacking of an actual active skill part
-shieldstacking is annoying for the caster and the opponent, also how they only scale on max resource
-the amount of bar space the toggles require and how it has a negative impact on sorcerers build diversity



"cuz sure necromancers will be fun for casuals that come and play for 1 month probably then they will leave as always after they spent a few $ in the game but b4 that players who were in the game already and were staying for a long time they leave and never return..."

That's the way of the MMO, especially ESO. It caters greatly to the many on/off casuals that tend to spend a few bucks and leave until the next update. Not my preference but who am I to decide? So are you saying that's because of the class or that will happen if all they release in that update would be a class? Sure, I agree for the latter, they had to be part of a bigger update, like they did with Wardens. Without new content players will get bored and leave. But that's not the guilt of a new class by itself.

"besides having endless minions around you will break pvp in so many ways and since pvp doesn't actually provide any more income(if it ever did) due to the bad performance/balance/pop etc..."

That argument is based on the sole idea that a possible necromancer class is equiped with endless permanent minions. We thought the same about Wardens as well and they turned out to have one permanent summon with fancy non-permanent "animal companions". It is just as likely that Necromancers have these fancy summoning animations for skills as well. Right now it's all just fanfictioning.
Also, I doubt that people will run endless minions if they are toggles like the pets from Sorcerers and Wardens.

But I'm really interested in you showing us how the bad performance and pop(ulation) in PvP correlates to summoned pets. PvP performance is a mess even if no pet sorc is around. Server performance is just a comfortable argument to push your agenda. People who don't like CP PvP said "It's CP that kills the performance". Then it was friendly AoE effects that were to blame for server lag. Now the summons that are few and far between are guilty. Or are it the zerger's that kill the servers? However, bad coding is bad coding, weak servers are weak servers. Don't excuse that with your agenda.

And, if you say PvP makes them no money, why should they care if a few pets break PvP performance even more. You said it yourself. Necros would bring them money. Why turn that down for something that generates no income.
Even if I disagree about PvP's making them no money. Most people don't exclusively play PvE or PvP, many do both. And even if you find a PvP only person, why shouldn't he buy a fancy costume (unlikely with the outfit system) or a new mount?

Anyway, I agree that they should fix their game along with releasing new content (including classeS)

srnekro

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

xenowarrior92eb17_ESO wrote: »

@srnekro to you and others who seems to have had 2 much skooma lately...necromancers will never happen for the simple fact that ZOS will have to rework sorcs daedric summoning class skill tree which in return will cause a huge amount of rage to the current players and an even larger drops from the game that will lead to a long term detriment and profit loss for the game...cuz sure necromancers will be fun for casuals that come and play for 1 month probably then they will leave as always after they spent a few $ in the game but b4 that players who were in the game already and were staying for a long time they leave and never return... that is a risk ZOS wont take...at least not now with all the flaws eso is having...besides having endless minions around you will break pvp in so many ways and since pvp doesn't actually provide any more income(if it ever did) due to the bad performance/balance/pop etc... unless a complete overhaul that for the beginning fixes the lagfest and improves all the things that should had been fixed in the past 4 years...

I think you refer to me as one of the others. Always good to start an argument with an insult. Thumbs up, Xenowarrior92. That proves your maturity and emphasis your expertise. So let's work through this.

"necromancers will never happen for the simple fact that ZOS will have to rework sorcs daedric summoning class skill tree which in return will cause a huge amount of rage to the current players and an even larger drops from the game that will lead to a long term detriment and profit loss for the game..."

Why would the addition of another class means the redesign of the sorcerer class? Wardens are partly summoners and daedric summoning is left untouched.

Why would a rework cause a "huge amount" of players to rage and drop from the game? Nerfs, buffs, reworks happen all the time in a MMO. That's the nature of this genre. Sure, people get frustrated an some may leave, but firstly it's not unusual for MMO's to have an ebb and flow of the playerbase, not just because of changes but mostly because of it's own or other games new content/ new releases or the lack of new content.

And why would a rework of the daedric summoning skill line be a bad thing per se? Many experienced sorcs are vocal about a change to that skill line because:
-it excludes stam sorcs nearly entirely
-the pet AI is pretty lackluster
-pets are hard to control, especially on console
-half of the pets are useless once you reach higher difficulty content
-bound armor being a letdown for being a toggle and lacking of an actual active skill part
-shieldstacking is annoying for the caster and the opponent, also how they only scale on max resource
-the amount of bar space the toggles require and how it has a negative impact on sorcerers build diversity



"cuz sure necromancers will be fun for casuals that come and play for 1 month probably then they will leave as always after they spent a few $ in the game but b4 that players who were in the game already and were staying for a long time they leave and never return..."

That's the way of the MMO, especially ESO. It caters greatly to the many on/off casuals that tend to spend a few bucks and leave until the next update. Not my preference but who am I to decide? So are you saying that's because of the class or that will happen if all they release in that update would be a class? Sure, I agree for the latter, they had to be part of a bigger update, like they did with Wardens. Without new content players will get bored and leave. But that's not the guilt of a new class by itself.

"besides having endless minions around you will break pvp in so many ways and since pvp doesn't actually provide any more income(if it ever did) due to the bad performance/balance/pop etc..."

That argument is based on the sole idea that a possible necromancer class is equiped with endless permanent minions. We thought the same about Wardens as well and they turned out to have one permanent summon with fancy non-permanent "animal companions". It is just as likely that Necromancers have these fancy summoning animations for skills as well. Right now it's all just fanfictioning.
Also, I doubt that people will run endless minions if they are toggles like the pets from Sorcerers and Wardens.

But I'm really interested in you showing us how the bad performance and pop(ulation) in PvP correlates to summoned pets. PvP performance is a mess even if no pet sorc is around. Server performance is just a comfortable argument to push your agenda. People who don't like CP PvP said "It's CP that kills the performance". Then it was friendly AoE effects that were to blame for server lag. Now the summons that are few and far between are guilty. Or are it the zerger's that kill the servers? However, bad coding is bad coding, weak servers are weak servers. Don't excuse that with your agenda.

And, if you say PvP makes them no money, why should they care if a few pets break PvP performance even more. You said it yourself. Necros would bring them money. Why turn that down for something that generates no income.
Even if I disagree about PvP's making them no money. Most people don't exclusively play PvE or PvP, many do both. And even if you find a PvP only person, why shouldn't he buy a fancy costume (unlikely with the outfit system) or a new mount?

Anyway, I agree that they should fix their game along with releasing new content (including classeS)

Indeed.

SydneyGrey

cabbageub17_ESO wrote: »

Pets should auto unsummon in cities.

Unfortunately that wouldn't work, since there are some quests that have to be completed in cities. I believe the Daggerfall quests are one of those, where you have people attacking you right there in the city (and one werewolf).
However, if necromancy is a skill line that any char can have, they have to put a limit on how many summoned pets a person can have. It would have to be limited to two so sorcs can't have two daedra in addition to a necromancer summoned pet.

Aisle9

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Aisle9 wrote: »

1. Not if the game is designed for 4 classes. The addition of an extra class already created conflict.

3. Oh noes...

People are crying for balance, therefore let's add a new class.

Could you explain [1] further? What conflict does it create? That people now have to make a choice between a templar or a warden if they want to create a good healer?

Also, are you saying that balance is only achievable with the fewest possible variables at hand?

Magicka wardens (let's ignore stamwarden, since every stam dps is pretty much equalized by using a maelstrom bow) is lackluster at best as PvE dps, and still a niche for PvE tanking, while can achieve both very easily in PvP => underperforms in PvE while overperforms in PvP.

Let's analyze why: Ice based attacks proc minor maim, which is either redundant or straight up useless in any PvE group situationand, as a dps using an Ice staff as your main weapon, you end up being straight up detrimental to the group, relegating the Ice Staff among "tanking weapons". Minor Maim in PvP, instead, is one of the most powerful ways of mitigating damage (on top of Ice fortress).

I shouldn't be telling you this, because it's pretty easy to get this information on your own, but the meta for magicka DDs (PvE), as of now, consists of 2+ class dots + blockade + spammable + extra.

For example:
- magsorc = Liquid lightning, blockade, curse, scamp + heavy attack or force pulse.
- magblade = Twisting path, cripple, blockade, funnel/force pule, assassin's will.
- magplar = shards, sun fire, purifying light, blockade, sweeps
- magdk = burning embers, engulfing flames, eruption, flames of oblivion, blockade, whip

- magwarden= fetcher infection (?), winter's revenge (?)

Simply put the warden is not made for sustained damage, but rather for burst damage, on which is actually pretty strong (cliff racer, deep fissure) and damage mitigation (Ice fortress, shimmering shield, leeching vines).

Any player with a basic understanding of the game can absolutely dominate in open world PvP with a warden, but will still struggle in PvE, for some very simple reasons:

Pets are not reliable dps, unless they deal aoe damage (i.e. unstable familiar), so in practice, if you don't rely on the actual pet attack.
Ice procs maim which is either redundant or straight up useless in PvE, unlike shock and fire which proc concuss (minor vulnerability) and burning (extra dot).
Wardens lack strong class dots for sustained damage, unlike the other classes.

Now, this is not an issue for stamina wardens, since pretty much every stamina class relies on 3 things: Endless hail, Caltrops, Trap, all out of the skill lines.

If we're only considering healing, let's keep in mind that:

1) Pretty much every class can heal, even more so now that synergies are going out of skill's gcd, and DKs also have access to Major Mending.
2) Consolidated "healer" classes, such as the templar, are also strong as DDs (stamina AND magicka).
3) The warden is not bringing anything more to the table, with the exception of damage mitigation, which implies that your tank is incompetent or your DDs are unable to not stand in stupid. The addition of Major Mending for extra healing ? Only matters in PvP, since in PvE healers already overheal.

As far as warden tanks are concerned, they are still a niche. I wouldn't mind to see them getting some love, but where it counts, it's still more advantageous to use a DK. I'm not gonna get into that discussion, though.

That is imbalance.

I'm not saying balance is only achievable with the fewest variable, but rather that if you're already struggling with balance adding more variables makes it more difficult, because I think we can agree that solving a problem with fewer variables is usually easier.

Hope this clarifies.
Have a nice day.

Thanks for schooling, but I know the basics pretty well.
A short "wardens are lackluster in PvE DPS (!), OK for other roles and OP in PvP" would have been enough.

However, in your essay you only prove that they are not good as pve dd. So what? They are nice healers and tanks. mDKs are good tanks and still they aren't what you bring as a vet trial healer or dd. Or have you seen a competetive sSorc healer? Is that a prove that this game is designed with fewer classes in mind? I don't think so. Every class has it's benefits and areas in which they are lacking. This game is more than just DD, DD, DD. Not every class can or should be on top of every role in every part of the game.
That doesn't mean it wouldn't be nice if they close the gaps between the role/class combos a little bit.

So in short: here does that prove that the game is designed around 4 classes? That they *** up wardens is only a prove that they *** up wardens. Nothing else. It's just a long "they can't balance the game now, how should they do it with another class" kind of argument.

"wardens are lackluster in PvE DPS (!), OK for other roles and OP in PvP". That's... a bit reductive, and I felt you wouldn't have been satisfied with that answer (I wouldn't have). My intention was not to "school you", just to be accurate.

What you missed is that each class has the tools to do everything, except wardens. These tools may have been nerfed or buffed over the years, but they are there.

MagDKs are not competitive PvE DDs right now, true, but that's because currently certain mechanics are being reworked (off-balance, primarily). They still have all the tools they need to be.

Wardens don't have the tools (skills).

There's a pretty big difference.

Not every class should be on top of every role, true, but it's also true that as far as tanking is concerned, but they are hardly on top of anything. They don't have a strong class synergy (like templars) that would make them great healers, the only thing is a cheap healing ultimate which you wouldn't be using, because it would be at the expense of warhorn. They don't give anything to the group that most people already have (Major resistances, as most classes have access to them, so redundant).

So, basically, there's no real reason to run a warden healer, rather than a DK healer, there's no real reason to run a warden tank rather than a templar tank, and we already agree that as far as damage dealing is concerned, they are lackluster. It's not that they're not on top of something, they're on top of nothing, as far as PvE is concerned.

So, yeah, they messed up the warden, which is the only class they released after the 4 base classes.

That's a 100% failure rate.

Just saying.

Kwik1

Plz no on the Necromancer. This class is overdone in every other MMO and it gets tiring. In fact NO MORE PETS period. We have plenty as is and they need a make over anyway,

I would vote for an archer class specifically. The current bow skill line is the same for everyone with no variation. How about an entire class set of skills based on special abilities with the bow. Hell even a healer line where we shoot our own allies to heal them!!! That was a joke btw.
Seriously though you could have an Element Tree, a CC Tree, and a stealth based tree or something. We need another scout or stealth class and an archer fits in nicely.

And plz make it a new class completely. If people have all 14 slots filled well that's their choice, but some of us LIKE playing new classes and leveling up again plus it would coincide with the new leveling rewards

DuckNoodles

Monk Class.

SilverIce58

DuckNoodles wrote: »

Monk Class.

What skill lines could you even give a monk class? Nobody wants that. People want a hand-to-hand or unarmed weapon skill line.

idk

It was not clear by the first post in this thread if OP wants necromancers added to the game or is stating they would be boring to play because they lack the variety of builds other classes have. All this even though none of us have any idea of how Zos would make a necro class.

I also find it odd that the lore part of his discussion is less about lore and more about an attempt to justify necros. There really is nothing in that OP about lore.

It seems to leave out of the "lore" section that necromancers have spread fear throughout Tamriel during this current time. They are seen as evil. That alone would be a lore issue that would prevent or delay a necromancer class being considered at this time.

Inhuman003

Let's just say we have Necromancer the whole time everybody seems to forget that vampires are able to bring back the dead and they sure did a lot of that in Skyrim. Necromancer would be best as a skill line and a class of it's own.

Stewart1874

People are being *** gimps about this

Add it in, if it *** things up patch it. Every other eso game has included necromancers to some degree so its a bit *** to exclude it. More content is good content. I'm bored shitless with the game presently so this would give me something to mess about with. We're basically stuck with like 'vanilla' mages which is utterly boring. Throwing in a pet build which is actually engaging and interesting could be just what the game needs and likewise, the buff and debuff stuff could add a totally new dynamic to how you can optimise your group for dungeons and trials.

The vast majority of my posts are negative on here because when things are going well i'm having too much fun to complain or document it. This is a move in the right direction by Zenimax if it is implemented.

I think also, it opens up a TON of new content, motifs, mounts, pets, costumes, furnishings and possibly a house. I'd even like a quest chain attached to it.

srnekro

Stewart1874 wrote: »

People are being *** gimps about this

Add it in, if it *** things up patch it. Every other eso game has included necromancers to some degree so its a bit *** to exclude it. More content is good content. I'm bored shitless with the game presently so this would give me something to mess about with. We're basically stuck with like 'vanilla' mages which is utterly boring. Throwing in a pet build which is actually engaging and interesting could be just what the game needs and likewise, the buff and debuff stuff could add a totally new dynamic to how you can optimise your group for dungeons and trials.

The vast majority of my posts are negative on here because when things are going well i'm having too much fun to complain or document it. This is a move in the right direction by Zenimax if it is implemented.

I think also, it opens up a TON of new content, motifs, mounts, pets, costumes, furnishings and possibly a house. I'd even like a quest chain attached to it.