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ESO Class discussion

Iccotak
Iccotak
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First Off
I would like to note that I do not have all the answers or the definitive answer, I am offering my thoughts on the topic and leaving it open for discussion.
With demands for more skill lines and classes like Necromancer I think the overall concept of classes in Elder Scrolls Online is something that we should talk about.

Please look at this video to see where I am coming from.

Go to about 52:00 for Spell Crafting
Go to about 1:00:00 for Classic Magic Spells


Here's the problem with introducing classic schools of magic in ESO and why spellcrafting has yet to be implemented.
They would make many of the existing Class abilities redundant.

Case in Point
-Muffle and invisibility in Illusion would make certain Nightblade skills redundant.
-Conjuration would give everyone the ability to summon daedra. Sorry Sorcerers
-The Warden’s ice abilities are basically ice destruction spells, in fact having an entire destruction school would make three separate elemental skill lines from three different classes redundant.

This is because ESO took the schools of magic and split them up amongst the classes to fill certain niches thereby determining playstyle and theme. Which is something a percentage of the player base is not a fan of.
In Elder Scrolls games, you use the skills to craft your character to fill that niche and the game does not do it for you. There were classes in Morrowind and Oblivion but they also had the option to make your own thing.

This is why Bethesda opened up the skills for people and allowed them to combine different specializations within the limit of available skill points. They wanted to give players the ability to grow and develop their own characters as they desired. Players want to determine their own theme, flavor, and playstyle.
Sure in ESO, there is alot of freedom but I can’t solely specialize in lightning because they separated the schools of magic and grouped certain ones together by class. Meaning, I have to pick the Sorcerer, which is largely a conjuring class, if I want lightning abilities.

Here is a basic idea of what Skill lines could be;
Magic
Destruction
Restoration
Conjuration
Alteration
Illusion

Weapons
Two-Handed
One-handed & Shield
Dual Wield
Bow
Staves (This one is going to require some thought)

Armor
Heavy
Medium
Light

World
Legerdemain
Vampire
Werewolf
(Soul Trap should be part of Conjuration, this feels like a Necromancer power)

Guild
Fighters Guild
Mages Guils
Undaunted
Thieves Guild
Dark Brotherhood

Alliance War
Assault
Support
Emperor

Racial
Race you chose

Trade
Alchemy
Blacksmithing
Clothier
Enchanting
Provisioning
Woodworking
And from there we can build on with skill lines like; Spears, Spellsword, Nature, Animal companions, etc.

Magic Weapons
The problem with staffs in this proposed system is the same in Skyrim. Why use the staff if I can just use the spells? So the staff needs to be able to bring something to the table that the normal magic skill line can’t.
The problem with staves now is that players want more Magicka based weapons and subsequent skill lines. They are getting tired of staves as it is limiting in playstyle. Hence why people have been suggesting wands or creating more staff involved skill lines, like one-handed weapons. Think of when Gandalf used a staff and a sword at the same time.


Specialization
Having no classes does not mean everyone is going to become a jack of all trades. In fact it could open the doors for even more unique and specialized characters.
Even in Skyrim, before legendary edition, it was better to specialize then to try to be everything.

Point being, you don’t need classes to force players to choose particular number of skill sets and specialize. Limited skill points prevent us from mastering and investing in every weapon and armor skill line, making us specialize in specific ones when honing our builds. Why would it be any different for Magic skill lines?

Elder Scrolls has limited skill points available. The players invest in the skill that’ll build their character into specific classes and themes they want. You don’t need classes to define strengths and weaknesses, players can do that on their own.
-I can use Conjuration and decide to specialize in Daedric summoning or controlling the undead.
-I can choose to specialize in one of the elements of the destruction; Ice, Fire, or Lightning.
-Restoration doesn't just heal, there are abilities of non-healing properties that I can choose to specialize in.
-There are so many avenues that one could explore in Alteration if one looked into its history in the ES games.

The truth of the matter is that classes do largely determine role and playstyle and also limits Players in their ability to create unique characters in both gameplay and theme/role-playing.
-I could try to play a sorcerer assassin but Nightblade will always be better suited for it.
-Dragon Knights are more suited for playing Tanks than Nightblades.
-I could use a restoration staff with any class but Templars and Wardens can provide more with them compared to the other classes.
Overall, Classes may have options to use whatever gear they want but they undeniably lean towards certain equipment more than others do.

ESO unnecessarily splits the schools of magic, soul trap is a good example of this.
Soul Trap is a skill that should have been part of the conjuration skill tree. OR Would have fit perfectly thematically with a Necromancer class if they made one. Why would a holy templar be using abilities that do things like;
“Burn enemy from the inside with soulfire”
“Lay claim to enemy souls”

This brings to light my next issue.

What are these Classes?
Balancing skill lines to prevent one cookie cutter build from being better than all the others is really no different than balancing the classes.
The Warden is very much a response to how the base game classes were designed for certain roles and playstyles.
With the new Warden class being capable of filling diverse roles, ZOS has discussed giving each Class a DPS, Tank, and Healing skill line. Meaning that they are drifting away from a system where the game defines distinct classes with distinct strengths and weaknesses, leaving that more up to the player.
To which I have to ask, what is the point of classes then?

The lore reasons the game provides for certain classes simply contradicts itself and the lore.
Dragon Knights: “These skillful masters-at-arms use the ancient Akaviri martial arts tradition of battle-spirit, and wield fearsome magic that pounds, shatters and physically alters the world around them.”
Many of the races are already masters of magic, why would they need the skills from foreign invaders to understand fire magic?
The explanation for Wardens is that it is a class crafted by the Wood Elves, hence why their insignia is on the the Warden costume.
But why are almost all the animal abilities made after Morrowind type animals? The Cliff racer, netch, shalks, fetcher flies, etc.
Also does this mean that every Ice mage in the game had Warden training? Aren’t the Nords well versed in Ice magic? Wouldn’t the Argonian culture simply have magic pertaining to nature?
I have a Nord Warden character because thematically it seems perfect to me. A Nord of the Wild and Cold.
But why not have an Argonian character who uses; Green Balance, Animal Companion, and Dawn’s wrath? (Not exactly that but something like that)

If Necromancy does happen why would it simply not be a power available to the Sorcerers? A class who works in Daedric magic and the dark arts.

On the note of thematics; Classes as a method to determine theme is being undercut when we have a new Necromancer (Worm Wizard) personality coming with Dragon Bones DLC that is available for any character no matter your class.

Finally
Yes this is an MMO. But ESO was originally modeled after the standard theme park MMO design. It was this design at launch that severely hurt the game, the main complaint being; "This is not Elder Scrolls", and is something the developers have been moving away from since. Hence why the story zone DLCs have been more of a return to form.
SO while ESO is an MMO, it should prioritize what made the Elder Scroll games work and what made them special, and try to apply that to the online format. Not only maintaining itself as an Elder Scrolls title but as a unique game amongst the MMO genre.

END
Now that I have said my piece, I leave the discussion to you.
Edited by Iccotak on January 20, 2018 7:11AM
  • Apache_Kid
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    No spell-crafting ever please. It would be a balance nightmare. I'm not so hot on the idea of each class having a skill line dedicated to each role. I also enjoy the fact that certain classes excel at certain roles and have no interest in making my Nightblade a better healer or making my sorc a better tank etc.
    Edited by Apache_Kid on January 20, 2018 7:05AM
  • Iccotak
    Iccotak
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    @Apache_Kid
    Just so you know
    7zdsK9y.png
  • TheShadowScout
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    Personally I would have preferred to see ESO with a classless system in some way, but... eh. Ship, sailed, sunk, long ago.

    I can see why they thought classes easier to handle, it allowed them to make more flashy class skills since they could spread the balance over the class selection... though again, I'd have liked to see less flashy skills and more freedom.

    I don't mind the "schools of magic" thing, since those things changing over time is plausible, the "ESO is set just before the mages guild really kicked off with reorganizing all the diverse magical traditions into the schools of magic" fluff works well enough for me. I still am very envious whenever I see some NPC use a nifty spell our characters have no access to, and would wish they'd do -something- to change this...

    Spellcrafting in how people think about it most, as in "make your own class skills" is something I sort of both anticipate and dread, since for one it might allow me to grab those NPC spells, but for another likely would end in everyone and their granny using the same super-effective skill combinations... and I prefer diversity, not "attack of the clones"...
    I do hope they might rework the whole idea, maybe make it so people can craft consumable spell-scrolls from their class skills, then trade those for others to use... as long as it was a consumable, it would be all right, yes?
    But time will tell.
  • ak_pvp
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    No spell-crafting ever please. It would be a balance nightmare. I'm not so hot on the idea of each class having a skill line dedicated to each role. I also enjoy the fact that certain classes excel at certain roles and have no interest in making my Nightblade a better healer or making my sorc a better tank etc.

    Not so. There is still the limit on skill slots, gear etc. And the stronger you make an ability, the weaker other effects on it become. Also, if everyone has these things, then it's less imbalanced than one OP class.

    I personally want classes to be a starting point and all abilities be spellcraftable. I.e. Start with a spell on caster. Add shadow effect, tada you get cloak. Add lighting, you get boundless. And in a similar vein, martial styles crafting for stam.

    But I would have it be difficult to get so classes still have some weight.
    MagDK main. PC/EU @AK-ESO
    Best houseknight EU.
  • Apache_Kid
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    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    No spell-crafting ever please. It would be a balance nightmare. I'm not so hot on the idea of each class having a skill line dedicated to each role. I also enjoy the fact that certain classes excel at certain roles and have no interest in making my Nightblade a better healer or making my sorc a better tank etc.

    Not so. There is still the limit on skill slots, gear etc. And the stronger you make an ability, the weaker other effects on it become. Also, if everyone has these things, then it's less imbalanced than one OP class.

    I personally want classes to be a starting point and all abilities be spellcraftable. I.e. Start with a spell on caster. Add shadow effect, tada you get cloak. Add lighting, you get boundless. And in a similar vein, martial styles crafting for stam.

    But I would have it be difficult to get so classes still have some weight.

    But if everyone has access to the same spells and abilities then everyone will just use the best possible combinations all the time and there would be no variety. Idk I just like it as it is.
  • Apache_Kid
    Apache_Kid
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    @Apache_Kid
    Just so you know
    7zdsK9y.png

    It's dead to me.
  • Wifeaggro13
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Iccotak wrote: »
    @Apache_Kid
    Just so you know
    7zdsK9y.png

    It's dead to me.

    the pesron reponsible for developing it and directiing it is long gone. spell crafting will happen in a cold hell
  • Apache_Kid
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Iccotak wrote: »
    @Apache_Kid
    Just so you know
    7zdsK9y.png

    It's dead to me.

    the pesron reponsible for developing it and directiing it is long gone. spell crafting will happen in a cold hell

    This makes me happy thank you. 1 awesome for you.
  • Thizbee
    Thizbee
    Years ago, I had been invited to play ESO as a beta tester (long before this trend of paying to beta test without the commitment of participation in forum discussions and bug reporting, which was a requirement for ESO beta tester, at the time).

    I made many posts, at the time, RE inbalanced skill lines and lack of attention to the lore in that case and over all. Many changes have been made upon release of the game and since. Most of them great. (I still think "chesting" machanics are dumb!)

    However, as a long time supporter and player of the franchise, the thing that has made Elder Scrolls games great are the "not class" choices a player can make.
    Heavy armor and a destruction staff?
    Hell yeah!
    Dual weilding, robe wearing, healer?
    Well of course!

    And ESO has made numerous changes and adjustments **because** they listen to fans.
    Thank you, btw.

    But a rework of skills, especially since player opinion is held in such high regard, is inevitable.

    Many of my early suggestions, during the beta days, have come to pass (not that I was the only one making them) and I have another:

    Make skills associated with the place.
    Here's the lore behind it....
    The map of Tamriel has always been a crucial component to playing this game and it's many iterations. The opening of the map for all players with the DLC of that location, was a huge important change (the reason I came back to play after the beta closed, and the launch was such a catastrophe). And if you are a long time player of the franchise, like me, you have that map memorized better than our own Earth. (ESO's Riften is not quite right, compared to Skyrim, but some Oblivion locations are spot on.... As a player who cares about the lore, those details make a difference.)

    Things to learn from the Undaunted skill tree concept and Morrowind Wardens:
    Basing skill accumulation on location and quest lines. These are examples of what I think is possible, at least going in the right direction. Attaining specific skills or skill trees via location and quests. Another example of how to attain "making your own class" awesomeness that makes the franchise so successful comes from the Modding community (ESO has borrowed from them before IE housing): Alt Start.

    The idea is a player chooses starting skills (which should always include some kind of heal mechanic or potion... Something) based on the race and location of origin. Like the warden from Morrowind. And that additional skills can be sought by going to that place, doing a quest line, and so on.

    It's like you're almost there, we can taste it.
    Meanwhile I will keep playing, waiting for ESO game makers to not only listen to fans, but impliment our ideas into game concepts.

    Thanks
    Edited by Thizbee on January 20, 2018 9:08PM
  • SisterGoat
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    That video is 3 and a half years old, it's likely their ideas for spellcrafting have changed drastically because there were so many possible balancing problems. I'm still crossing my fingers, though, because they haven't outright said no.
    Jumps-In-Water - Magicka Templar
    Dar'akar - Stamina Nightblade
    Jumps-In-Lava - Magicka Dragon Knight
    PC/NA
  • DoctorESO
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    .
    Edited by DoctorESO on September 22, 2018 8:00PM
  • Aeladiir
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    Iccotak wrote: »
    @Apache_Kid
    Just so you know
    7zdsK9y.png

    Emphasis on T H I N K I N G.
  • Iccotak
    Iccotak
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    DoctorESO wrote: »
    Video is TL;DR? One hour - really?

    @DoctorESO
    I told you the times to skip to in order to look at what I was talking about. Its about 10 min total give or take that covers Spell Crafting and classic spells
  • Iccotak
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Iccotak wrote: »
    @Apache_Kid
    Just so you know
    7zdsK9y.png

    It's dead to me.

    the pesron reponsible for developing it and directiing it is long gone. spell crafting will happen in a cold hell

    @Wifeaggro13
    That tweet was given out this past year. So we'll see
  • Vedder3475
    Vedder3475
    Soul Shriven
    Thizbee wrote: »
    Years ago, I had been invited to play ESO as a beta tester (long before this trend of paying to beta test without the commitment of participation in forum discussions and bug reporting, which was a requirement for ESO beta tester, at the time).

    I made many posts, at the time, RE inbalanced skill lines and lack of attention to the lore in that case and over all. Many changes have been made upon release of the game and since. Most of them great. (I still think "chesting" machanics are dumb!)

    However, as a long time supporter and player of the franchise, the thing that has made Elder Scrolls games great are the "not class" choices a player can make.
    Heavy armor and a destruction staff?
    Hell yeah! Dual weilding, robe wearing, healer?
    Well of course!

    And ESO has made numerous changes and adjustments **because** they listen to fans.
    Thank you, btw.

    But a rework of skills, especially since player opinion is held in such high regard, is inevitable.

    Many of my early suggestions, during the beta days, have come to pass (not that I was the only one making them) and I have another:

    Make skills associated with the place.
    Here's the lore behind it....
    The map of Tamriel has always been a crucial component to playing this game and it's many iterations. The opening of the map for all players with the DLC of that location, was a huge important change (the reason I came back to play after the beta closed, and the launch was such a catastrophe). And if you are a long time player of the franchise, like me, you have that map memorized better than our own Earth. (ESO's Riften is not quite right, compared to Skyrim, but some Oblivion locations are spot on.... As a player who cares about the lore, those details make a difference.)

    Things to learn from the Undaunted skill tree concept and Morrowind Wardens:
    Basing skill accumulation on location and quest lines. These are examples of what I think is possible, at least going in the right direction. Attaining specific skills or skill trees via location and quests. Another example of how to attain "making your own class" awesomeness that makes the franchise so successful comes from the Modding community (ESO has borrowed from them before IE housing): Alt Start.

    The idea is a player chooses starting skills (which should always include some kind of heal mechanic or potion... Something) based on the race and location of origin. Like the warden from Morrowind. And that additional skills can be sought by going to that place, doing a quest line, and so on.

    It's like you're almost there, we can taste it.
    Meanwhile I will keep playing, waiting for ESO game makers to not only listen to fans, but impliment our ideas into game concepts.

    Thanks

    Wow. You designed this game... Obviously.

    Can we get that soap box back...?
  • Ruckly
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    I don't see a problem with spell crafting if you can use it to add -->1<-- skill to one of your skill bars thus limiting it balance wise. Thus 9 skills + 1 spell crafted skill. There are already pots for everything. I think spell crafting can work if it is less efficient than normal skills. So if you want to spell craft a single target heal it won't be as good as the templar's single target heal. Or if you want to craft invis it won't be a good as nightblade's; maybe at best an expensive tool to disappear away somewhere. Or if you want to craft something similar to the warden's heal skill that lets them move to a friendly target within 28 meters you can do it without the heal but keep the mobility. ect.

    I suppose to expand on that special teams skills could be crafted for specific cases. e.g. A skill that does stamina damage to blocking targets.
    Edited by Ruckly on January 20, 2018 9:10PM
  • SilverIce58
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    No spell-crafting ever please. It would be a balance nightmare. I'm not so hot on the idea of each class having a skill line dedicated to each role. I also enjoy the fact that certain classes excel at certain roles and have no interest in making my Nightblade a better healer or making my sorc a better tank etc.

    Not so. There is still the limit on skill slots, gear etc. And the stronger you make an ability, the weaker other effects on it become. Also, if everyone has these things, then it's less imbalanced than one OP class.

    I personally want classes to be a starting point and all abilities be spellcraftable. I.e. Start with a spell on caster. Add shadow effect, tada you get cloak. Add lighting, you get boundless. And in a similar vein, martial styles crafting for stam.

    But I would have it be difficult to get so classes still have some weight.

    But if everyone has access to the same spells and abilities then everyone will just use the best possible combinations all the time and there would be no variety. Idk I just like it as it is.

    That's bull bc if you're a Stam dps in pve, you have to use endless hail, razor caltrops, vigor, you have to use DW and bow. If you're a magdps, you have to use blockade, force pulse, lightning and fire staff. Healers have to use a lightning staff back bar for the destro staff debuff. Your point is moot considering how everyone is just using the best possible combos now to get the best possible results.
    PC - NA
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    Gregor Blackwood - Breton MagNecro DC
    Teldryn Antharys - Dunmer Flame DK EP
    Xhiak-Qua'cthurus - Argonian Frost Warden EP
    Strikes-With-Venom - Argonian PoisonDK EP
    Ilianos Solinar - Altmer Stamplar AD
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    Rur'san-ra - Khajiit WW Stamsorc AD
  • Apache_Kid
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    No spell-crafting ever please. It would be a balance nightmare. I'm not so hot on the idea of each class having a skill line dedicated to each role. I also enjoy the fact that certain classes excel at certain roles and have no interest in making my Nightblade a better healer or making my sorc a better tank etc.

    Not so. There is still the limit on skill slots, gear etc. And the stronger you make an ability, the weaker other effects on it become. Also, if everyone has these things, then it's less imbalanced than one OP class.

    I personally want classes to be a starting point and all abilities be spellcraftable. I.e. Start with a spell on caster. Add shadow effect, tada you get cloak. Add lighting, you get boundless. And in a similar vein, martial styles crafting for stam.

    But I would have it be difficult to get so classes still have some weight.

    But if everyone has access to the same spells and abilities then everyone will just use the best possible combinations all the time and there would be no variety. Idk I just like it as it is.

    That's bull bc if you're a Stam dps in pve, you have to use endless hail, razor caltrops, vigor, you have to use DW and bow. If you're a magdps, you have to use blockade, force pulse, lightning and fire staff. Healers have to use a lightning staff back bar for the destro staff debuff. Your point is moot considering how everyone is just using the best possible combos now to get the best possible results.

    My point is not moot. There are so many skills in the game that I and many others have never even used due to how useless they are. Fix the existing skills we have that are bad and no one uses before we get any sort of "spellcrafting" system. That's what I want to see
  • SilverIce58
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    No spell-crafting ever please. It would be a balance nightmare. I'm not so hot on the idea of each class having a skill line dedicated to each role. I also enjoy the fact that certain classes excel at certain roles and have no interest in making my Nightblade a better healer or making my sorc a better tank etc.

    Not so. There is still the limit on skill slots, gear etc. And the stronger you make an ability, the weaker other effects on it become. Also, if everyone has these things, then it's less imbalanced than one OP class.

    I personally want classes to be a starting point and all abilities be spellcraftable. I.e. Start with a spell on caster. Add shadow effect, tada you get cloak. Add lighting, you get boundless. And in a similar vein, martial styles crafting for stam.

    But I would have it be difficult to get so classes still have some weight.

    But if everyone has access to the same spells and abilities then everyone will just use the best possible combinations all the time and there would be no variety. Idk I just like it as it is.

    That's bull bc if you're a Stam dps in pve, you have to use endless hail, razor caltrops, vigor, you have to use DW and bow. If you're a magdps, you have to use blockade, force pulse, lightning and fire staff. Healers have to use a lightning staff back bar for the destro staff debuff. Your point is moot considering how everyone is just using the best possible combos now to get the best possible results.

    My point is not moot. There are so many skills in the game that I and many others have never even used due to how useless they are. Fix the existing skills we have that are bad and no one uses before we get any sort of "spellcrafting" system. That's what I want to see

    What you mean by "fix" and what someone else means by "fix" are two different things. It's literally impossible to balance every single skill on the way that everyone wants them to be. That's why there's always someone who's mad when a new patch happens. If we got rid of all the skill lines we already have, and just did what the OP suggested people would still argue about which spells/skills need fixing and which spells/skills need nerfs.
    PC - NA
    CP 810
    Veric Blackwood - Breton Vamp MagSorc DC
    Gregor Blackwood - Breton MagNecro DC
    Teldryn Antharys - Dunmer Flame DK EP
    Xhiak-Qua'cthurus - Argonian Frost Warden EP
    Strikes-With-Venom - Argonian PoisonDK EP
    Ilianos Solinar - Altmer Stamplar AD
    Suunleth-dar - Khajiit Stamblade AD
    Rur'san-ra - Khajiit WW Stamsorc AD
  • Thizbee
    Thizbee
    RE: Spell Crafting specifically, since that seems to be the main idea taken away from the OP.

    The crafting system is already convoluted with time consuming farming steps that distract from the joy of playing the game. The writing is supurb and I want to spend my time discoverying the story, not hunt for pumpkins for my cheese cake. But time consuming steps are a MMMO main stay (one M is for money, lol).

    And how would Spell Crafting be any different to crafting Runes, for example? Collect componants with a certion ratio of drop in a certain location at a certain time of day? (Check out how to become a Werewolf without a DLC if you want to know about the skill tree chase).

    I don't want to look for a certain rare compant to make my sword better, I just want to help the king kill the monsters with a cool sword. Does that make sense?

    Do you really want the same convoluted mess to gain access to specific spells?

    Because thats what Spell Crafing will do.
    Please don't.

    Thizbee
    BTW, I think the soap box belongs to anyone who wishes to particpate in the conversation :)
  • dday3six
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    OP, you misunderstand what people mean by builds will be good at everything. It’s not that they’ll unlock every skill. Rather they’ll unlock certain skills which temper out all weaknesses the build might otherwise have.

    It also seems like you favor categorization more than representation. Every TES school of magic is represented in ESO, they’re just not listed under a tab with the school’s name.

    Then the reasons classes exist are simple:

    Need for team structure in a multi-player title - Giving players roles helps to ensure engagement. If everyone is just a version of a self sustaining DPS in group content, it quickly becomes a game of who’s the better killer. Might be fun for those in the room most efficient at murder, but the lessers want to contribute as well.

    PvP balance - This will share with the next point, but a more limited number of builds is easier to balance than a larger number.

    Bottle-necking build composition to make designing content and balancing more manageable - Knowing what players have access to is a key point in developing new content. If a developer has 1,000 builds to test vs 100 it drastically alters the workload. Having the skills is great, but viability is also a concern.
  • Apache_Kid
    Apache_Kid
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    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    ak_pvp wrote: »
    Apache_Kid wrote: »
    No spell-crafting ever please. It would be a balance nightmare. I'm not so hot on the idea of each class having a skill line dedicated to each role. I also enjoy the fact that certain classes excel at certain roles and have no interest in making my Nightblade a better healer or making my sorc a better tank etc.

    Not so. There is still the limit on skill slots, gear etc. And the stronger you make an ability, the weaker other effects on it become. Also, if everyone has these things, then it's less imbalanced than one OP class.

    I personally want classes to be a starting point and all abilities be spellcraftable. I.e. Start with a spell on caster. Add shadow effect, tada you get cloak. Add lighting, you get boundless. And in a similar vein, martial styles crafting for stam.

    But I would have it be difficult to get so classes still have some weight.

    But if everyone has access to the same spells and abilities then everyone will just use the best possible combinations all the time and there would be no variety. Idk I just like it as it is.

    That's bull bc if you're a Stam dps in pve, you have to use endless hail, razor caltrops, vigor, you have to use DW and bow. If you're a magdps, you have to use blockade, force pulse, lightning and fire staff. Healers have to use a lightning staff back bar for the destro staff debuff. Your point is moot considering how everyone is just using the best possible combos now to get the best possible results.

    My point is not moot. There are so many skills in the game that I and many others have never even used due to how useless they are. Fix the existing skills we have that are bad and no one uses before we get any sort of "spellcrafting" system. That's what I want to see

    What you mean by "fix" and what someone else means by "fix" are two different things. It's literally impossible to balance every single skill on the way that everyone wants them to be. That's why there's always someone who's mad when a new patch happens. If we got rid of all the skill lines we already have, and just did what the OP suggested people would still argue about which spells/skills need fixing and which spells/skills need nerfs.

    There are plenty of skills in this game that people can agree on are fundamentally useless along with certain morphs. Those can be made more viable choices through buffs. And if people are going to argue about balance anyways as you said then we might as well not even bother changing every thing and leaving it as is because as you said everyone is going to argue about it so what's the point?
  • Ragnarock41
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    this game should have made with a no class-hybrid system. (similar to archeage. to give an example)
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