Fake Tank Psychology?

generalmyrick

Are these the first guys to blame someone?

just sayin...

*** goes wrong and they seem to be the first to fire off the inappropriate yap yap yap! :-)

Cazzy

Is there a big problem with fake tanks atm? I keep seeing threads but have only really just returned to ESO...

Taylor_MB

Friggin forums obsessed with fake tanks right now.

Roll a tank yourself (not you, OP, just in general). The only way to fix fake tanks and lack of tanks in group finder is for you to be a tank yourself.

Jrk

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Friggin forums obsessed with fake tanks right now.

Roll a tank yourself (not you, OP, just in general). The only way to fix fake tanks and lack of tanks in group finder is for you to be a tank yourself.

I was a hardcore prot warrior tank in WoW from Vanilla to the end of WotLK (5 years, stopped about 7 years ago.) The inherent tanking concepts, both on paper & in real time, are still very familiar to me.

I would tank, but that......was..long ago.

raj72616a

Cazzy wrote: »

Is there a big problem with fake tanks atm? I keep seeing threads but have only really just returned to ESO...

no they are just being dumb.

Betsararie

Personally don't have an issue with fake tanks until it starts to negatively impact the pace of the run. Want to get the dung done ASAP.

Recremen

Cazzy wrote: »

Is there a big problem with fake tanks atm? I keep seeing threads but have only really just returned to ESO...

@Cazzy Due to the giveaway event there's (apparently) been a small uptick in people setting their dungeon finder roles to jobs they are not actually equiped to fill, so they can get as many alts through the group finder per day as possible and get the highest chance of winning nice things. This is mostly a non-issue since people tend to spam normal mode dungeons for the prizes and you can legit light-attack through a lot of normal dungeons, but then sometimes you get something like a Bloodroot Forge and all of a sudden a tank who can't hold aggro or take a hit becomes way more significant of a problem. That specific scenario happened to me today, but thankfully our fake tank left in a huff and we got a replacement who, you know, actually had a taunt on his bar.

raj72616a

Jrk wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Friggin forums obsessed with fake tanks right now.

Roll a tank yourself (not you, OP, just in general). The only way to fix fake tanks and lack of tanks in group finder is for you to be a tank yourself.

I was a hardcore prot warrior tank in WoW from Vanilla to the end of WotLK (5 years, stopped about 7 years ago.) The inherent tanking concepts, both on paper & in real time, are still very familiar to me.

I would tank, but that......was..long ago.

i'm not familiar with tanking in other games, but i've been reading that tanking in ESO is quite unlike in other mmorpg.
eso tanks in end game raid do not taunt all the trash mobs, do not put a lot of resources in self survivial, and optimize their build with boss defense debuff and ally damage buff.

generalmyrick

don't get me wrong, we did fine. i'm just saying ---->

Why the hell you blaming anybody? you keep dying and you're a fake tank....

shhhhhhhhh!

;-)

Soriana

I was of the mind, before this event, that although tanks were not 'needed' in the normal dungeons, they made the runs a lot smoother and sometimes faster. After this event, I can honestly say that when you are running with all cp maxed chars, a tank is a detriment as they cannot put out the dps that another character can. Even just holding the boss still to allow every one else to dps makes you feel pretty darn useless. I run a tank main, had her since closed beta, won't give her up for anything, but yeah...she isn't needed in normal dungeons, truth be told.

swirve

The answer to a fake tanks psychology is....

Me me me me me screw DPS queue me me me me me no taunt needed me me meeeeeee

Runefang

raj72616a wrote: »

Jrk wrote: »

Taylor_MB wrote: »

Friggin forums obsessed with fake tanks right now.

Roll a tank yourself (not you, OP, just in general). The only way to fix fake tanks and lack of tanks in group finder is for you to be a tank yourself.

I was a hardcore prot warrior tank in WoW from Vanilla to the end of WotLK (5 years, stopped about 7 years ago.) The inherent tanking concepts, both on paper & in real time, are still very familiar to me.

I would tank, but that......was..long ago.

i'm not familiar with tanking in other games, but i've been reading that tanking in ESO is quite unlike in other mmorpg.
eso tanks in end game raid do not taunt all the trash mobs, do not put a lot of resources in self survivial, and optimize their build with boss defense debuff and ally damage buff.

In ESO there are two support roles. One of those gets hit a lot while buffing/debuffing and the other heals every now and then while also buffing/debuffing.

Pure tank and healers are needed in only a few trials and dungeons.

ChunkyCat

I’d rather have a fake tank who is actually a dps than a “dps” who is running with a sword and board.

It happened.

Runefang

ChunkyCat wrote: »

I’d rather have a fake tank who is actually a dps than a “dps” who is running with a sword and board.

It happened.

I ran one where the healer had 32k health. There were no heals that day.

Thankfully I'm a self-supporting fake tank.

Iselin

Soriana wrote: »

I was of the mind, before this event, that although tanks were not 'needed' in the normal dungeons, they made the runs a lot smoother and sometimes faster. After this event, I can honestly say that when you are running with all cp maxed chars, a tank is a detriment as they cannot put out the dps that another character can. Even just holding the boss still to allow every one else to dps makes you feel pretty darn useless. I run a tank main, had her since closed beta, won't give her up for anything, but yeah...she isn't needed in normal dungeons, truth be told.

That's simply because normal dungeons require a different type of tank than the dual 1HD + Shield vet trial tank meta: one that can also DPS. I tank normals in medium armor with 1HD+S on one bar and DW on the other.

Having a real tank that gathers adds and keeps the boss taunted in one spot is still 100% better than the fakes who kite all around the room wasting other people's ultimates and ground targeted damage. Tanks are a plus group DPS over all the fake kiters.

Runefang

Iselin wrote: »

Soriana wrote: »

I was of the mind, before this event, that although tanks were not 'needed' in the normal dungeons, they made the runs a lot smoother and sometimes faster. After this event, I can honestly say that when you are running with all cp maxed chars, a tank is a detriment as they cannot put out the dps that another character can. Even just holding the boss still to allow every one else to dps makes you feel pretty darn useless. I run a tank main, had her since closed beta, won't give her up for anything, but yeah...she isn't needed in normal dungeons, truth be told.

That's simply because normal dungeons require a different type of tank than the dual 1HD + Shield vet trial tank meta: one that can also DPS. I tank normals in medium armor with 1HD+S on one bar and DW on the other.

Having a real tank that gathers adds and keeps the boss taunted in one spot is still 100% better than the fakes who kite all around the room wasting other people's ultimates and ground targeted damage. Tanks are a plus group DPS over all the fake kiters.

Yeah but I can go into a dungeon with full tank gear and still be stupid by kiting adds everywhere. That's a L2P issue, not a fake-tank issue.

When I fake tank I run in first, drop all my AoE and then stand in the middle of it. Unlike a real tank, every add continues to attack me because I'm generating a lot of aggro on them. I'm actually doing better than a real tank at that point because they generally lose most of the aggro in trash fights.

A 'half-dps' tank is probably a good idea in some of the harder normal dungeons, but on the whole most of them aren't hard enough that a dps with a taunt and either shield/self heal won't outperform them.

jssriot

I admit it. I was a fake tank today. Last night 3 guildies and I did a 4-dps random and I queued as a tank on my nb and forgot to undo it when I queued for a random this morning. Rather than quit group and make them queue for a real tank, I just ran with it since no one said anything at the start. One death (a pet sorc who acted like we were a burden on him, so it was OK) but we finished the dungeon nonetheless. I'm very sorry for being a fake tank, except for the pet sorc rage. That was kind of funny.

A_G_G_R_O

In lore I’m a fake tank. Don’t melt my fragile snowflakeness with your elitist remarks fam. It’s eso play how I want, if I wanna tank with bow light attacks I will. I am a kite tank.

Iselin

Runefang wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Soriana wrote: »

I was of the mind, before this event, that although tanks were not 'needed' in the normal dungeons, they made the runs a lot smoother and sometimes faster. After this event, I can honestly say that when you are running with all cp maxed chars, a tank is a detriment as they cannot put out the dps that another character can. Even just holding the boss still to allow every one else to dps makes you feel pretty darn useless. I run a tank main, had her since closed beta, won't give her up for anything, but yeah...she isn't needed in normal dungeons, truth be told.

That's simply because normal dungeons require a different type of tank than the dual 1HD + Shield vet trial tank meta: one that can also DPS. I tank normals in medium armor with 1HD+S on one bar and DW on the other.

Having a real tank that gathers adds and keeps the boss taunted in one spot is still 100% better than the fakes who kite all around the room wasting other people's ultimates and ground targeted damage. Tanks are a plus group DPS over all the fake kiters.

Yeah but I can go into a dungeon with full tank gear and still be stupid by kiting adds everywhere. That's a L2P issue, not a fake-tank issue.

When I fake tank I run in first, drop all my AoE and then stand in the middle of it. Unlike a real tank, every add continues to attack me because I'm generating a lot of aggro on them. I'm actually doing better than a real tank at that point because they generally lose most of the aggro in trash fights.

A 'half-dps' tank is probably a good idea in some of the harder normal dungeons, but on the whole most of them aren't hard enough that a dps with a taunt and either shield/self heal won't outperform them.

It's not what I've been seeing this week. The fake tanks that know to gather and then stand there are few and far between.

What I'm seeing this week is the guy who runs through packs moving to the next boss leaving the rest of the group to deal with his trash that he didn't aggro or the kiters.

Sixty5

For all the hate I've seen from fake tanks and such, the only time I've ever encountered it is when either me or a mate I'm grouped with has multiroled for a faster queue.

And in doing so I have learned an important lesson. Outside of three or four instances, a dedicated tank is superfluous in 4 man content, vet or normal.

I mean I still see an issue in queuing up as healer or tank if you don't have a taunt or a heal slotted, but if you are struggling to complete normal city of ash 1, I think not having a proper healer or tank is the least of your worries.

SquareSausage

normal dungeons dont need tank, but its crap when you get a lvl 11 queued as tank, dps and heal who cant do any of them :0

But as a max level it really doesnt matter who else is in the grp if youre not in a dlc dung

VaranisArano

There's a difference between a:

True Tank (please note I'm using true in the sense of pure, as in a pure tank) - A true tank builds for survivability, sustain, crowd control, boss debuffs, and group support. Generally has low damage. Essential for Trials, very useful in Veteran dungeons. In group dungeons, a true tank becomes more useful when group DPS is lower or players are inexperienced because a tank is important when the dungeon mechanics have to be respected. If group DPS is high enough that mechanics can be ignored, a true tank is less necessary except as a support role. In most normal dungeons with ignorable mechanics, a true tank is a helpful support role providing buffs, debuffs, and crowd control, but is not necessary.

DPS/Tank - A DPS/Tank builds for damage and some survivability. This tank has a taunt and a little crowd control/buffs/debuffs, but mostly focuses on holding boss aggro and then doing damage. This tank shines in easier content where boss mechanics can be ignored and the big hits can be shrugged off. Very well suited to normal dungeons where the tanking requirements aren't very hard and extra DPS can make for a much faster clear. This tank does control the boss' aggro, making it easier for the DPS and healer to do their jobs, resulting in an easy run while compensating for any low DPS due to group members. With sufficient player skill and experience, this build can be used in harder content like Vet Dungeons, but it lacks the survivability, sustain, and support provided by a true tank

Fake Tank - A DPS who is just a DPS, no taunt or special survivability. This fake tank brings extra DPS to the dungeon and is amazing in groups of 3-4 self-sufficient DPS. This can result in a faster kill on trash mobs and bosses, but also often results in the actual DPS and Healer pulling aggro and having to deal with the boss or other dangerous adds that those players may or may not be prepared to deal with, seeing as how they queued looking for a tank. A Fake Tank is at their best with other self-sufficient players but creates a lot of problems for players who aren't self-sufficient or dislike having to cover someone else not meeting their role.

So each of these have their optimal level of content.

• True Tank: Shines in Trials, Veteran Dungeons, and any group with DPS low enough that they have to respect the mechanics, so that the group support, crowd control, and the endurance of a tank is necessary. Problems: Low DPS means their group support is often rendered unnecessary in content where the mechanics are ignorable.
• DPS/Tank: Shines in Normal Dungeons and content where the mechanics don't require the survivability and endurance of a true tank. Benefits the group by fulfilling their role in the queue plus adding DPS to the group. Problems: often doesn't have the survivability, endurance, crowd control, or group support of a true tank or the same level of DPS as a pure Damage Dealer.
• Fake Tank: Shines in groups that have sufficient DPS to ignore mechanics and who are prepared to be self-sufficient with buffs and heals during the mechanics they can't ignore. Problems: When Fake Tanks end up in groups that don't have sufficient DPS, aren't prepared to be self-sufficient, or don't like having to cover for someone not meeting their role, it results in a lot of frustration.

For myself, I've got a True Tank and a DPS/Tank. I take my True Tank into Vet Dungeons, though her superior crowd control makes for very fast normal dungeon clears. My DPS/Tank is much more efficient at Normal Dungeons than my true tank, but I do have to be more careful on the mechanically harder dungeons like White Gold Tower. My DPS/Tank adds plenty of damage to her groups, but also controls the boss making sure it doesn't chase the healer or doesn't run out of the area and reset because someone kited it.

I don't have a Fake Tank, because I find it incredibly annoying to be holding aggro while on my healers which often happens when I have a fake tank in group. Sure, I can heal through it, but then I'm paying less attention to the group members who also need my heals (including the fake tank who almost always needs heals). Holding aggro on my healer makes it harder to do my job and that annoys me. - No, I don't want to hear from the "Its only a Normal Dungeon" crowd here. I'm doing my job just fine, I dislike being required to cover someone else's job as well because they can't be bothered.

Edited for Clarity: When I say "true tank" I'm using true in the sense of "pure", as in someone is playing a "pure tank" or a "pure healer" or a "pure DPS".

Tan9oSuccka

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

In lore I’m a fake tank. Don’t melt my fragile snowflakeness with your elitist remarks fam. It’s eso play how I want, if I wanna tank with bow light attacks I will. I am a kite tank.

A_G_G_R_O wrote: »

In lore I’m a fake tank. Don’t melt my fragile snowflakeness with your elitist remarks fam. It’s eso play how I want, if I wanna tank with bow light attacks I will. I am a kite tank.

That’s fine and dandy for solo play.

But I’m still going to kick you in meaningful GROUP content.

phileunderx2

Got one of those take off and leaves everyone who isn't able to keep to deal with the trash.this morning me and another player got hung up in a bunch of trash that leet player left for us and since we were lower level we died and couldn't res
until they killed the boss.fun stuff.

Jpk0012

Fake it till you make it.

Runefang

Iselin wrote: »

Runefang wrote: »

Iselin wrote: »

Soriana wrote: »

I was of the mind, before this event, that although tanks were not 'needed' in the normal dungeons, they made the runs a lot smoother and sometimes faster. After this event, I can honestly say that when you are running with all cp maxed chars, a tank is a detriment as they cannot put out the dps that another character can. Even just holding the boss still to allow every one else to dps makes you feel pretty darn useless. I run a tank main, had her since closed beta, won't give her up for anything, but yeah...she isn't needed in normal dungeons, truth be told.

That's simply because normal dungeons require a different type of tank than the dual 1HD + Shield vet trial tank meta: one that can also DPS. I tank normals in medium armor with 1HD+S on one bar and DW on the other.

Having a real tank that gathers adds and keeps the boss taunted in one spot is still 100% better than the fakes who kite all around the room wasting other people's ultimates and ground targeted damage. Tanks are a plus group DPS over all the fake kiters.

Yeah but I can go into a dungeon with full tank gear and still be stupid by kiting adds everywhere. That's a L2P issue, not a fake-tank issue.

When I fake tank I run in first, drop all my AoE and then stand in the middle of it. Unlike a real tank, every add continues to attack me because I'm generating a lot of aggro on them. I'm actually doing better than a real tank at that point because they generally lose most of the aggro in trash fights.

A 'half-dps' tank is probably a good idea in some of the harder normal dungeons, but on the whole most of them aren't hard enough that a dps with a taunt and either shield/self heal won't outperform them.

It's not what I've been seeing this week. The fake tanks that know to gather and then stand there are few and far between.

What I'm seeing this week is the guy who runs through packs moving to the next boss leaving the rest of the group to deal with his trash that he didn't aggro or the kiters.

That's why I'm always the fake-tank Or the healer who can do 10-15k dps.

Jarryzzt

Curiously enough, I haven't actually run into so-called "fake tanks" in normal dungeon PUGs (haven't tried veteran levels yet as want to grind out more CPs first). Which I've been running pretty heavily as of late, not just because of the recent event but to take advantage of the daily "Enlightened" bonus and generally grind out XP while staying generally in the same area.

What I have seen are either a bunch of DPS/tanks who can only hold aggro sometimes; or, more frequently, incompetent tanks. Meaning, tanks who might have the gear and skills and what have you to be decent tanks in theory, but who in practice a) do not respect boss mechanics (which does become important in a few of the normal-level dungeons); b) have not heard of this wondrous new invention called "interrupts" at all; c) routinely pull bosses out of clearly visible ground-based AoEs (especially the destro staff ultimate); d) think taunting adds of healers and such is for whimps and "whoopsies"...

It usually does not matter quite as much for normal level dungeon, although again, I can name two or three that stand a full head taller than others in terms of boss mechanics. Nor does it happen in every single PUG - I'd say perhaps 30%-40% of the time working off a sample of maybe 50 PUGs over the past month. It's just something that makes one shake one's head in despair and despondence, as in - if this were a veteran dungeon, we lot would have gotten absolutely murdered by this sort of incompetence...not to mention that at least in some MMOs out there a tank like this would get kicked by the second boss fight at the latest.

But understand, it's not really frustration, because at the "normal" difficulty level either the overall party DPS is good enough to cover any errors...a majority of the time (again, excepting certain bosses/dungeons). It's almost a sort of "I am ashamed to be in a group with a tank like this", or some such sentiment...

Zordrage

Im taking aggro from these sooo called tanks with my 0 CP lvl27 Magplar DPS.......

like really.....
and then they call me out for bad DPS.... well DAH i spent half the fight healing myself to oblivion to not die to the boss that you cant hold the aggro with your 100+ CP leet char !!!!.............

Mojmir

Your welcome for the easy completion- dps who queue'd as a tank

VaranisArano

Mojmir wrote: »

Your welcome for the easy completion- dps who queue'd as a tank

Can I send you the bill for the extra frustration I feel on my healers when the boss is in my face and I have to hold aggro on top of healing you and the rest of the party?

I just had a fake tank yell at a DPS for dragging the boss out of AOEs, when the DPS felt he had to run away from the boss aggroed on him. Sure, my healer could have healed that DPS if he'd just stood still, but after the nerve of a fake tank yelling at a DPS for not keeping the boss still, I'm in no mood to be charitable.

YOU might get an easy completion. Your groupmates have NO such guarantee if you don't hold 100% aggro with your amazing DPS. Which I've seen happen as often as a blue moon.

Runefang

VaranisArano wrote: »

Mojmir wrote: »

Your welcome for the easy completion- dps who queue'd as a tank

Can I send you the bill for the extra frustration I feel on my healers when the boss is in my face and I have to hold aggro on top of healing you and the rest of the party?

I just had a fake tank yell at a DPS for dragging the boss out of AOEs, when the DPS felt he had to run away from the boss aggroed on him. Sure, my healer could have healed that DPS if he'd just stood still, but after the nerve of a fake tank yelling at a DPS for not keeping the boss still, I'm in no mood to be charitable.

YOU might get an easy completion. Your groupmates have NO such guarantee if you don't hold 100% aggro with your amazing DPS. Which I've seen happen as often as a blue moon.

Honestly a decent fake-tank will slot a taunt, at least for the tough bosses. Mini-bosses are usually dead so fast that it doesn't matter.

And I've rarely had an issue with a fake-tank, either being one or running with one. My experiences with them is overwhelmingly positive, yet people like to whine about them. In comparison its about 1 in 4 runs where I have 2 bad DDs at once.