Veteran Bloodroot Forge Nigh Unpuggable

Urza1234

Preliminary disclaimer; I have in the past in fact managed to pug this, with people who had literally never been to the dungeon before. However over the last 3 days I've spent probably about 19 hours total trying to pug vBRF and have managed it once, 1 time.

There were 4 reasons that this dungeon has been proving to me to be a complete Pug-Breaker:

1. Absolutely no one knew the mechanics. From CP 84 to CP 884, every single person from GF lacked knowledge.
2. The mechanics are extremely unforgiving, especially on the healer and tank. On the harder bosses if the healer or tank make even a single mistake its a wipe. Personally at this point I know the mechanics extremely well and thats not a problem form e but PUGs do not have the patience for 4 hours of wipes, which btw is how long I spent continuously in one of those dungeon runs in the last 3 days. Mostly what the DPS have to do is break 10k dps and avoid standing in Red, but even so I had to pick people up a good dozen times per fight, because all the Red is instant death.
3. Leavers, this applies both to uninterested players without patience, and to earnest and patient players. To start with every single time I got a group for vBRF if I was not healing the healer would leave either as soon as they saw what dungeon it was, or before the 1st boss. The vast majority of players were not patient enough to make it even past the 2nd boss, in fact only once when I was not healing did I manage to get past the 2nd boss.
   Occasionally I would find a person similarly patient as myself, as long as I had one person who would stick around through the wipes we would cycle through other players constantly joining and leaving until we got a successful group. However, people have real life concerns, most of the people I met did not set aside more than 40 minutes for the random dungeon the queued for, so even when I got decent and patient players, they eventually had to leave. To even make it -to- the 4th boss I usually had to cycle through many different patient individuals; one would stick with me long enough to find a second, who would stick around long enough to find a 3rd, etc. I did have one person stick with me for a whole three hours, late enough that they joked that they might get fired from work. Mostly though, a dungeon which has been sped-run in 20 minutes by better groups, ended up taking probably on average 90 minutes without even succeeding. I managed to make it to the final boss only 3 times, in 19 hours.
4. Gear. At first I tried tanking this dungeon, this was actually one of my more successful runs, I found patient players very fast, but unfortunately I dont think the healer was very good. I managed to make it to boss 6 almost entirely on self-healing, in fact I actually was doing a good amount of emergency healing on the group as well. The DPS I had with me were pulling a good 40k each, I was very lucky in that, but I was absolutely unable to rely on my healer enough for the 6th fight, which is the hardest fight for the tank IMO. Firstly the whole dungeon requires MASSIVELY more block than any other vet dungeon I've seen besides Falkreath, even regular adds on half the bosses will 1-shot the tank if he's not blocking. The 4th boss and 6th boss I felt were especially punishing on the tank's resources, the only way I can see that I could have ensured the success of the group by myself would have been to have had a full perma-block build, which is damned useless on every other dungeon. In the end I decided to try mostly to heal vBRF, and every single tank that I had some amount of success with had to stop at least once and slot more CPs into block cost reduction. The expectations on not only the gear of the tank, but the specific build, are way out of line for this dungeon compared to other Vets.
   After that I tried tanking a few more times, and actually managed to get to the 2nd boss without a healer more than once, but none of the healers I found were geared or prepared to heal though the kind of damage that dungeon puts out. Since I got the impression that healing has the most carry potential for that dungeon, and after a good 16 hours healing this dungeon I maintain that impression, I decided to switch to healing.
   I specifically geared to deal with pug madness before attempting this on my healer, full Kagrenac's Templar to save the group from wipes when someone made a mistake, and Hist Sap in case I made a mistake, with the 6th boss's stuns specifically in mind. TBH the Hist Sap didnt turn out to be all that useful, fairly soon I wasnt making many mistakes, and any I was making weren't avoidable with that set. Even so, since the mechanics of the 4th and 6th boss literally 1-shot the tank if they run out of resources, no amount of gear on my healer was able to ensure my success. No I did not use SPC or any of that jazz, the problem was certainly not the 2% extra clear speed that set might provide the group, the problem was people falling over in Red every 15 seconds.

Between those 4 issues that vBRF has, I managed to waste more than a full wake cycles across 3 days with only 1 successful completion. I feel like this dungeon as is belongs in guild-only territory like vet trials, its completely out of line with other vet dungeons. IMO though, rather than nerf vBRF, why doesnt Zenimax create a 3rd tier for dungeon content for more serious players. Most of the non-DLC dungeons can be soloed by certain serious players even on vet, so they all need a tier 3. Whereas imo vBRF already is that tier 3, with a giant empty chasm between it and tier 1(normal).

I dont honestly know if anything productive can come of me communicating my experience here, but if it can I would like it to, so if anyone else has any input on the massive difficulty gap between vBRF and other dungeons hopefully they can contribute.

Sixty5

I think the biggest issue with the dungeon is how punishing the mechanics are. They all deal a huge amount of damage, so any time you don't get everything 100% right, you die, and then it becomes hard to get revives.

All this means there is a very thin line that needs to be walked to complete the dungeon, and most random groups can't handle that.

Mureel

If people cannot focus the targets I tell them and clear shalk stuff as I've told them, and focus the boss and mirrors/adds as I've explained - after 3x saying same I am outtie.

Sorry but all that place needs is people to do the job they are supposed to, not do all sorts of other things.

If people will not follow simple instructions, then I will keep my pots and repair gold for someone who will.

When someone is nice enough to tell you easy instructions to clear easy and you don't do it because you're stubborn, ignorant or both, then you deserve to wipe til you figure it out.

I however, do not.

Anyone who has known me awhile knows I will stick through a LOT - but plain old not listening is not going to work for me.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

I use the group finder almost every time I do a dungeon, as a healer, as a dps, as a tank, I have 690+ CP, I have yet to get this dungeon from the beginning, I have only been put into groups that are on the last boss, it is really amazing to me I have owned this dungeon for 3+ months and not once have I beat it, never once, not one time. I have spent like 30 minutes the first time on the last boss, that is really unacceptable that a vet dungeon boss has harder mechanics then the last boss of vDSA. It is really crazy. Kudos to you if you really put in that much time but I have better things to do then bang my head against a wall.

Edit: after reading closer, this is the boss with the three rock guys, I have completed this, as a healer, wasn't too bad. It is the other one, Falkreath Hold that the last boss is ridiculously hard.

Cage_Lizardman

"Absolutely no one knew the mechanics. From CP 84 to CP 884, every single person from GF lacked knowledge."

True, very few people who try pugging this once, are willing to do it a second time. They are smarter than the likes of us.

I have pugged it several times, but the completion rate is awful. It's the final boss that's the problem, even Galchobhar's mechanics most people can handle with explanations and a few wipes.

Mureel

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO wrote: »

I use the group finder almost every time I do a dungeon, as a healer, as a dps, as a tank, I have 690+ CP, I have yet to get this dungeon from the beginning, I have only been put into groups that are on the last boss, it is really amazing to me I have owned this dungeon for 3+ months and not once have I beat it, never once, not one time. I have spent like 30 minutes the first time on the last boss, that is really unacceptable that a vet dungeon boss has harder mechanics then the last boss of vDSA. It is really crazy. Kudos to you if you really put in that much time but I have better things to do then bang my head against a wall.

I will tell ya a secret.

Just do hard mode.

Attack like this: First boss, then 2nd spawn (IGNORE FIRST! Only target 2nd cleave is OK but really kill 3rd, 2nd, 1st no other order), then BURN 3rd spawn, then go BACK to 2nd and kill that, then finish with First.

I did it first time EVER in on my MagNB with another good dps (not great just avg-good) an OK tank and a good healer - only a few wipes. We just went straight to HM because F messing with synergies etc.

Edited to add; I found the one who throws his hammer (sorry shite with names) worse at first because I didn't know what to do about about the shalk dot thing. Someone here told me.

MLGProPlayer

Not every dungeon needs to be PUGable and that's fine.

LadyNalcarya

I think ZOS should implement some kind of learning curve. The difference between normal and vet dungeons is massive, and its really difficult to adapt if you're a new player. Those new players just dont have a reliable way to start vet content (and group finder isnt exactly reliable), and honestly its not their fault. Yes, there are guilds, but there's not that many experienced players who are willing to spend their time teaching someone.
So, while I'm against nerfing content (after all, there are people who enjoy it, and it would be unfair for them), I really wish ZOS would made the road to vet hm content less... bumpy, so to speak.

SammyFable

Why exactly is this an issue?

Mureel

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

I think ZOS should implement some kind of learning curve. The difference between normal and vet dungeons is massive, and its really difficult to adapt if you're a new player. Those new players just dont have a reliable way to start vet content (and group finder isnt exactly reliable), and honestly its not their fault. Yes, there are guilds, but there's not that many experienced players who are willing to spend their time teaching someone.
So, while I'm against nerfing content (after all, there are people who enjoy it, and it would be unfair for them), I really wish ZOS would made the road to vet hm content less... bumpy, so to speak.

There are even Vet Dungeons then there are VET GD DUNGEONS xD

Marabornwingrion

Simple question: why do you want to pug it so much, instead of going there with guild or friends?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Astrid_V wrote: »

Simple question: why do you want to pug it so much, instead of going there with guild or friends?

I work odd hours and have no set schedule. I am aware this is not normal, most people know when they work and can schedule things with friends and guilds.

newtinmpls

LadyNalcarya wrote: »

I think ZOS should implement some kind of learning curve. The difference between normal and vet dungeons is massive, and its really difficult to adapt if you're a new player.

Yup, yup.

Been playing since about a month after PC release, I'm not BiS/min-maxer, but I'm also not stupid and will listen to folks who know the mechanics.

I have to say that normal really doesn't teach mechanics at all, and they are obscure and unforgiving - and not fun to the likes of me.

OTOH most of the seriously hard stuff (Trials and such) I know are beyond me. It's frustrating to have Undaunted stuff this out of reach.

Merlin13KAGL

Between the two DLC dungeons, imo, BRF is the easier of the two.

That being said, it does require people to be fairly spot-on with their roles and to coordinate well as a group.

This is another fight where voice comms are invaluable, espcially on the 'island' boss (2nd to last).

First recommendation on this is that first timers should probably try non-vet first. It gives a taste of what's to come and then you can have a better idea what to expect on Vet. Unless you just happen on an exceptional group of randoms (the odds are not in your favor), you can explain in the most perfect detail and the likelihood of success is still small.

This, as with most DLC dungeons are intended to be for a bit more advanced/experienced groups. That doesn't mean 50k dps, nor 1000 cp's. It does generally mean people that can coordinate well in group, play well off each others' strengths and weaknesses, and do most of the 'standard' stuff without being prompted (moving, rezzing, kiting, blocking)

From your list:

• Nothing wrong with trying new content on normal until you're semi-familiar. The benefit increases with lower CP's (you can't even random it under cp160 since a couple patches ago, which should be an indicator right there) but can also apply to higher CP's. Ability to grind does not equate to ability as a capped player.
• The mechanics are unforgiving, but they can be beaten. Without unforgiving mechanics, players will not be pushed to improve. The more the other dungeons are done, especially mechanics heavy hard-modes, the easier ones like this will become. This is sometimes counter to the above, as you can be a pro-dungeon delver at low CP; you can be damn near brand new at it at cp 800. Depends on the individuals. The pug runs where you've had success probably involved people that are both familiar with their class and have done a lot of small group play and delving.
• This is gonna happen in any content that isn't a faceroll. The Planar Inhibitor (pinion boss) in WGT is still a deal-breaker to this day with several groups. There are two parts to this:
  1. You have to be able to look at the fight as a group and determine what everyone needs to do differently. This can be timing, positioning, or something as simple as changing out a single skill or focusing a different priority target. This is the tricky part, because it changes with each group and sometimes with each attempt with the same group. On a positive note: No one knew the mechanics the first time they set foot in any content. They were able to determine a functional strategy, as a group, that allowed eventual success.
  2. Part of being experienced with this, group content, and delving in general, also involved knowing when it's time to 'call it.' People are going to get frustrated and leave. it happens. However, you have to be able to see, preferably as a group, when it's no longer advancing things to stay. It's not that you're giving up. If you stay past the point where the individuals gain benefit, you're simply leading to fatigue, frustration, and failure. It helps no one to beat your collective head against the brick wall. Good groups will agree on this and know when to concede (for now). In groups that go from determined to downright stubborn, you may have to be the one to depart.
     *This does not mean your group is bad or incapable. I've been in excellent groups that simply couldn't click on a given day. There is no harm in knowing your limit - it won't always be there.
• While gear is part of it, I still feel it's a small part. If you are geared halfway competently for your role, you can complete this content. Granted, if you're having trouble with a particular aspect (regen, resistances, etc), a minor change can help. Certainly, as a tank, you can sometimes swap support gear to make thing easier on your group if that will help (Imperium, Ebon). Skills apply the same way. (Barrier, Negate, Warhorn.) Figure out where you or your group members are having trouble and you can make minor adjustments to help.
• Not on your list, but voice comms are a must here. When you get to the point where you can all breeze through, then it's an option. When you're learning or new, or even having a bit of difficulty, being able to actually speak with one another can cut the difficulty by a factor or ten.

Content like this is what improves player skill. Many of the non-DLC dungeons can improve player skill and group coordination. There is nothing wrong with using those dungeons to do just that. There is equally nothing wrong with running the normal versions in the meantime.

It's a sensitive area because people feel they should have access to, and by association, be granted the ability to clear content when it arrives. But so many, especially pugging randoms, assume they can go from nothing to end-game with simply with the wonder of CP's. While CP's certainly help, they will never be a substitute for good group communication and group synergy (not talking about 'X').

TL;DR; Without seeing the specific instances, and what was causing trouble, it's hard to offer sound advice, because each and every circumstance is different. That and being able to identify and adjust to that, imo, is what separates a good player from the great ones, and will ultimately allow for success.

Kudos on coming here to ask for advice and suggestions. That's another trait that can be difficult to come across. If there are specific areas of the dungeon that cause more frustration, I'm sure we'd be happy to offer some tips as to the more subtle aspects that make the clear a little more likely.

Best of luck.

Peekachu99

A good tank carries the party both there and in the other new dungeon. Falkreath is generally harder as there’s a strict dps check at the end. But again, a self sustaining tank can allow for three dps, which makes things easier.

InvitationNotFound

poor soul. There are like 4 vet dungeons you actually don't want to run with pugs. This is one of them. You rarely get a group that has a good healer, a good tank and 2 good dds. If one of them is mediocre or sucks it is game over and a waste of time (depending on the role and if someone can compensate, e.g. in the case of a dd).

if you want to run those dungeons try to get a group together with people you know and where you know that they are capable of doing it. otherwise it will be a waste of time.

Banana

Im glad i avoid that one

Feanor

Like others said, not every vet Dungeon has to be doable with a PuG.

kylewwefan

I got this as a random yesterday on my tank. Group was stuck at last boss. Every time the 3rd boss spawn all hell broke loose someone would die. I would die. We all died. I gave it a good 45 minutes. Players dropped. Replacements. Best run was down to %12 and wiped for reasons. F that place.

Urza1234

Mureel wrote: »

If people cannot focus the targets I tell them and clear shalk stuff as I've told them, and focus the boss and mirrors/adds as I've explained - after 3x saying same I am outtie.

Sorry but all that place needs is people to do the job they are supposed to, not do all sorts of other things.

If people will not follow simple instructions, then I will keep my pots and repair gold for someone who will.

When someone is nice enough to tell you easy instructions to clear easy and you don't do it because you're stubborn, ignorant or both, then you deserve to wipe til you figure it out.

I however, do not.

Anyone who has known me awhile knows I will stick through a LOT - but plain old not listening is not going to work for me.

In 19 hours of pugging this dungeon I must have gone through dozens of different pug players, probably less than 100, but the turnover was pretty high. In all that time I only found one person who I believe just could not do the mechanics eventually. In that particular case I do not know if it was lag, or if they were very young, or had a brain injury, or what. They didnt have an attitude problem whatsoever, they just had a completely flat learning curve and seemed to have absolutely no idea where any Red was at any time.

The worst I can say about the rest of the players I found was that they didnt have patience, b/c I think most of them queued for a random dungeon and they set aside 20-40 minutes and didnt want to waste more time than that. I found 0 ragers, flamers, or salty sea sailors. I found 0 people who were too stubborn to do mechanics. I found only as stated 1 person who did not learn the mechanics as instructed after a few tries. Honestly doing this has improved my opinion of the majority playerbase of this game a great deal. They might not all be l33t, but they were more polite and decent than most people I've met on the internet in a long time.

The main problems they consistently had were gear, and the practice and mechanical ability to consistently make 0 mistakes after they had learned the mechanics. The mechanics were just too punishing for all 3 other players to listen, learn, and practice together before at least 1 of them had to go do something else.

Tan9oSuccka

I have yet to complete both of these on Vet.

Both have been absolute time drains with Randoms.

s7732425ub17_ESO

Vet Forge is one of the only dungeons that actually requires the tank to have some skill. How many PUG tanks can hold aggro on the last boss when he splits into three forms and each one hits really hard? The dungeon is night and day based on the skill of the tank.

The DPS can usually self sustain or need no healing at all during certain bosses as long as they avoid red. Healer pretty much only needs to focus on the tank.

Urza1234

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Vet Forge is one of the only dungeons that actually requires the tank to have some skill. How many PUG tanks can hold aggro on the last boss when he splits into three forms and each one hits really hard? The dungeon is night and day based on the skill of the tank.

The DPS can usually self sustain or need no healing at all during certain bosses as long as they avoid red. Healer pretty much only needs to focus on the tank.

Yeah, that "as long as they can avoid red" part is the hard part, but honestly while I totally agree this dungeon is hardest on tank and healer, its harder for DPS imo than alot of others.

1. A lot of DPS I dont think are aware when a shalk targets them with fireball, that was one of the hardest things I had to heal through, basically had to either Ult of spend half my mana every time. Cleanse did not appear to work on this at all.
2. Getting a tank to reliably plug the geysers was another big issue, nothing the DPS can do about that.
3. They also need to be extremely fast on adds. This is both in terms of reaction speed and pure DPS. I never had an even slightly successful group with less than 25k dps, the adds are just too dangerous, especially if one of the DPS makes a mistake and steps in Red. Mainly this includes the plants and the stone atronachs. I can tell you, on Galchobhar I got so desperate that I was slotting Javelin to stun the stone atronachs, because the atronachs were not going down fast enough, and even if the tank had all the mechanics down pat the stone atronach's AoE was going right through their block and deleting them and the whole group.

Girl_Number8

Urza1234 wrote: »

Preliminary disclaimer; I have in the past in fact managed to pug this, with people who had literally never been to the dungeon before. However over the last 3 days I've spent probably about 19 hours total trying to pug vBRF and have managed it once, 1 time.

There were 4 reasons that this dungeon has been proving to me to be a complete Pug-Breaker:

1. Absolutely no one knew the mechanics. From CP 84 to CP 884, every single person from GF lacked knowledge.
2. The mechanics are extremely unforgiving, especially on the healer and tank. On the harder bosses if the healer or tank make even a single mistake its a wipe. Personally at this point I know the mechanics extremely well and thats not a problem form e but PUGs do not have the patience for 4 hours of wipes, which btw is how long I spent continuously in one of those dungeon runs in the last 3 days. Mostly what the DPS have to do is break 10k dps and avoid standing in Red, but even so I had to pick people up a good dozen times per fight, because all the Red is instant death.
3. Leavers, this applies both to uninterested players without patience, and to earnest and patient players. To start with every single time I got a group for vBRF if I was not healing the healer would leave either as soon as they saw what dungeon it was, or before the 1st boss. The vast majority of players were not patient enough to make it even past the 2nd boss, in fact only once when I was not healing did I manage to get past the 2nd boss.
   Occasionally I would find a person similarly patient as myself, as long as I had one person who would stick around through the wipes we would cycle through other players constantly joining and leaving until we got a successful group. However, people have real life concerns, most of the people I met did not set aside more than 40 minutes for the random dungeon the queued for, so even when I got decent and patient players, they eventually had to leave. To even make it -to- the 4th boss I usually had to cycle through many different patient individuals; one would stick with me long enough to find a second, who would stick around long enough to find a 3rd, etc. I did have one person stick with me for a whole three hours, late enough that they joked that they might get fired from work. Mostly though, a dungeon which has been sped-run in 20 minutes by better groups, ended up taking probably on average 90 minutes without even succeeding. I managed to make it to the final boss only 3 times, in 19 hours.
4. Gear. At first I tried tanking this dungeon, this was actually one of my more successful runs, I found patient players very fast, but unfortunately I dont think the healer was very good. I managed to make it to boss 6 almost entirely on self-healing, in fact I actually was doing a good amount of emergency healing on the group as well. The DPS I had with me were pulling a good 40k each, I was very lucky in that, but I was absolutely unable to rely on my healer enough for the 6th fight, which is the hardest fight for the tank IMO. Firstly the whole dungeon requires MASSIVELY more block than any other vet dungeon I've seen besides Falkreath, even regular adds on half the bosses will 1-shot the tank if he's not blocking. The 4th boss and 6th boss I felt were especially punishing on the tank's resources, the only way I can see that I could have ensured the success of the group by myself would have been to have had a full perma-block build, which is damned useless on every other dungeon. In the end I decided to try mostly to heal vBRF, and every single tank that I had some amount of success with had to stop at least once and slot more CPs into block cost reduction. The expectations on not only the gear of the tank, but the specific build, are way out of line for this dungeon compared to other Vets.
   After that I tried tanking a few more times, and actually managed to get to the 2nd boss without a healer more than once, but none of the healers I found were geared or prepared to heal though the kind of damage that dungeon puts out. Since I got the impression that healing has the most carry potential for that dungeon, and after a good 16 hours healing this dungeon I maintain that impression, I decided to switch to healing.
   I specifically geared to deal with pug madness before attempting this on my healer, full Kagrenac's Templar to save the group from wipes when someone made a mistake, and Hist Sap in case I made a mistake, with the 6th boss's stuns specifically in mind. TBH the Hist Sap didnt turn out to be all that useful, fairly soon I wasnt making many mistakes, and any I was making weren't avoidable with that set. Even so, since the mechanics of the 4th and 6th boss literally 1-shot the tank if they run out of resources, no amount of gear on my healer was able to ensure my success. No I did not use SPC or any of that jazz, the problem was certainly not the 2% extra clear speed that set might provide the group, the problem was people falling over in Red every 15 seconds.

Between those 4 issues that vBRF has, I managed to waste more than a full wake cycles across 3 days with only 1 successful completion. I feel like this dungeon as is belongs in guild-only territory like vet trials, its completely out of line with other vet dungeons. IMO though, rather than nerf vBRF, why doesnt Zenimax create a 3rd tier for dungeon content for more serious players. Most of the non-DLC dungeons can be soloed by certain serious players even on vet, so they all need a tier 3. Whereas imo vBRF already is that tier 3, with a giant empty chasm between it and tier 1(normal).

I dont honestly know if anything productive can come of me communicating my experience here, but if it can I would like it to, so if anyone else has any input on the massive difficulty gap between vBRF and other dungeons hopefully they can contribute.

Tltr Just solo it and let us know when it is done

Honestly, we didn't have a problem with this one, Just good team work. Though as a random, yeah, your looking at pure punishment. They need to nerf it to make it more pug friendly.

Some of the heavy duty vet content is just not fun too many plp whine. So it makes me not want to take them, and that doesn't feel good to me.

Oreyn_Bearclaw

They day all vet content is pugable is the day ESO dies. No DLC dungeon has been a cakewalk for a group of randoms within 6 months of launch and that is a beautiful thing. Even today something like VWGT is going to be a struggle in a group if nobody has run it.

Either you design dungeons with mechanics that must be followed or you dont. Mechanics generally require good communication and time to learn, something that most pug groups lack. If you want content that can all be stacked and burn with sub par support and mediocre DPS, there is plenty to chose from.

RouDeR

I pug it with my warden tank 2 hours after the dlc droped on ps4 with 2 dpses and no healer . After that we Did HM with my guildies (3 dpses and me ) so yes its pugable and its relativly easy when its non HM .
Basicly if the tank is not a patato you will be fine.

Kanar

The thing with vBRF and vFH is that all 4 players have to be good. One mediocre player and it can't be done. Somehow I can always find 2 other good players but that 4th ends up being not good enough.

vBRF is all about the tank. We spent over an hour there with one tank. After he left and we got another tank who could survive the third guy we cleared it with only one wipe.

Tasear

For final boss you can actually control where lava spawns in fact you see on sides... you can despoit there.

This dungeon sucks because we have a general lack of skilled tanks in game.

morrowjen

I've PUG'd this twice as a healer. Both times the group fell apart at the final boss because there was just too much confusion but had replacement players popping in and out from the start. I did get one run with a great tank but the DPS players were lost and we ultimately had to give up. The good thing is I made friends with that tank. It's one of the appeals of PUG'ng harder content -- spend that much time with someone and you can make friends outside your guild.

idk

The productive results that can come from OPs post is he would join a guild instead of pugging such new content.

It's great for the game to have content that is challenging and we can do something other than dps a target dummy and call it a dungeon boss.

we all know the will nerf it someday like they did ICP and WGT. Heck, I wouldn't pug either of those beforehand yet cleared it many times.

But t Zos should not nerf content because this guy is challenged running through it with pugs that haven't seen it before and may have area awareness issues and other things.

Again. Join a guild. No excuses.

Khenarthi

I'm just happy that the normal verson is puggable. I can get in, complete it, get my skill point, and never set foot in there again.

You guys can have your hard dungeons, I find my fun elsewhere.