Shor PC/NA "Official" Discussion

Raknosh

My problem with ball groups is that they always seems immune to any kind of CC. Hard CC, root, snares, there's nothing you can do to isolate 1 guy. Imo retreating maneuvers needs to be nerfed to 6 players max, like most of other buffs.

Drakkdjinn

Rickter wrote: »

I think the questions you guys are saying we should ask in regards to group comp and how to fight said groups would be rather redundant.

This is a well known plystyle. Its the meta. The counterplay for this playstyle s already known. Adenoma, this isnt about TM being better players - they arent. Ive already seen how they perform “not using the meta”. Its night and day. We had more than a chance and the fights were pretty good. What i had found was The fights werent easy enough for them because theyre all tanks and healers so they switched to easy mode. Im not even making this up. Its exactly what marek said about a page ago. Only he used the phrase “we got bored” lol please.

You said you have no dog in this fight adenoma, but your last 3-4 posts have advocated for TM quite a bit.

In any case im very surpised @NBrookus @Lord_Hev @Montayva @Takuto and @Durham have been entirely absent of this discussion. You guys helped me build Shor, and youve seemed to disappear or turn a blind eye.

Particularly Takuto who felt compelled to speak out against hyper aggressive emp defense yet doesnt seem to have an opinion about this situation.

I totally get, “facing adversity to improve” - lol i feel like weve been doing that this whole time against Qaevir, Animosity, adamant, dreadlord’s numbers etc. Shor has never been an easy server regardless of the absence of an exploitative playstyle. This isnt about that this is about how in order to fight that playstyle, youd have to give up what you love about a server. Which would effectively kill it.

TM are you ready to have that blood on your hands? You ready to be Shor’s CN?

Beetlejuice.

Rickter wrote: »

<Tertiary Meat> = <Chuck Norris>

Both utilize tactics the server cant defend against.

Both unapologetically dismiss server health, concerns or respect.

Both are willing and enthusiastic about running down/off competition.

Both have stated that if “you dont like it, git gud”.

The End.

Beetlejuice.

Rickter wrote: »

I bet you are laid back. Hitting R and running through groups that dont defend themselves must be a relaxing change of pace for you.

So close.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j6PS_QGEaCA

Blacksheepart

Rickter wrote: »

This is a well known plystyle. Its the meta. The counterplay for this playstyle s already known. Adenoma, this isnt about TM being better players - they arent. Ive already seen how they perform “not using the meta”. Its night and day. We had more than a chance and the fights were pretty good. What i had found was The fights werent easy enough for them because theyre all tanks and healers so they switched to easy mode. Im not even making this up. Its exactly what marek said about a page ago. Only he used the phrase “we got bored” lol please.

You were fighting 4 people, tanks and healers and dps didn’t log in yet. So you’re saying it was more difficult when the dps logged in even though your group still had twice our numbers? Good to know. Oh yeah, we have the video of this too it was an interesting watch.

Kartalin

https://youtu.be/16dQa3rrWEE

Valen_Byte

hmm, lot of DC ther, interesting.

Rickter

so you guys are going off of group size in the video right? Even though Marek confrmed himself there was 6 of you and Rows said there was 5. And then you want to ignore that Takuto’s team was there as well.

Cool. Says alot about you.


Anyways this is going to be the last hing i say on this topic. Seriously, 6+ TM members padding an argument on a thread looks a lot like that Sotha thread when i said DC had no representation on the forums and was shamed away - and its pretty darn sad.

As people who have first hand account of a server being killed, youd think youd listen to guy that has been in Shor longer, and has more insight into the type of players and ecosystem that Shor is, telling you what you can do to preserve or otherwise not kill said server. I guess you got so caught up in how i said it versus what the actual message was. Its like youve never met someone that actually means what he says when he says there is a community on Shor that you should be mindful of.

Youre visitors. There are people that main on Shor and you were not cosiderate of them because to you, this is just an overflow server.

Your playstyle has little counterplay to and it makes the entry gap for newcomers (which is a lot of what shor is) even wider. And this is something that you could have identified after the 2nd to 3rd bomb that went undefended. @technohic had it right when he said that you telling us to “git gud” would only further transform the server into Vivec, effectively terminating what made it a draw for a majority of its inhabitants.

I understand you have the right to play anyway you want. The question here though is whether you should. There is a time and place for that gameplay and its Vivec and i suppose at one point Sotha. Identifying that this is bigger than yourselves and taking steps to employ a degree of responsibility to the server is honestly what i have done this entire time. Shor is little salt, and very inviting because of that hard work and not a single person can deny it.

Its simple: if you dont see anyone else doing on the server, don t do it.

That goes for not just destro bombing, but gate camping, teabagging etc.

So thats it. Its a dead horse at this point. Im advocating for server preservation and personal responsibility. Youre advocating for playing how YOU want, to hell with the rest. Id say this was pretty black and white for everyone and ive said all i can say on the matter.

And when its all said and done, it wasnt CN or DC that killed Shor, it was AD and the good ol boys from TM

Munavar

Stop the presses! Marek made an error! He stated '6' instead of '4' during a very short window of time as the group was forming. There were '6' by the 3rd encounter. Kart provided video 'evidence'.

The amusing thing is the general lack of destros (especially with the engagements with DC). Sorry Werewolves, they had their hides singed from time to time.

It may be me, but it sure appears to be more than a '1 button' play style.

pzschrek

Oh, Rickter. If TM = CN, then TM would have a member on Shor with permanent emp and would have rallied what AD pugs there are to lock you behind your gates, where you would still be even now.

This is not an argument, but a statement of fact.

I played EP exclusively during the Norris Wars. I know which I'd rather have on my server.

Rickter

So for munavar, all he got out of my post is the discrepancy of the number of people in TMs group whilst still ignoring that Takutos whole team was there making it a 13v11 enagagement.

And pzshrek all you got out of my post was the CN/TM comparison. Given that my words rung true months ago which you revealed to me, id say you should probably give my post a little more consideration.

Drakkdjinn

Rickter wrote: »

so you guys are going off of group size in the video right? Even though Marek confrmed himself there was 6 of you and Rows said there was 5. And then you want to ignore that Takuto’s team was there as well.

Cool. Says alot about you.


Anyways this is going to be the last hing i say on this topic. Seriously, 6+ TM members padding an argument on a thread looks a lot like that Sotha thread when i said DC had no representation on the forums and was shamed away - and its pretty darn sad.

As people who have first hand account of a server being killed, youd think youd listen to guy that has been in Shor longer, and has more insight into the type of players and ecosystem that Shor is, telling you what you can do to preserve or otherwise not kill said server. I guess you got so caught up in how i said it versus what the actual message was. Its like youve never met someone that actually means what he says when he says there is a community on Shor that you should be mindful of.

Youre visitors. There are people that main on Shor and you were not cosiderate of them because to you, this is just an overflow server.

Your playstyle has little counterplay to and it makes the entry gap for newcomers (which is a lot of what shor is) even wider. And this is something that you could have identified after the 2nd to 3rd bomb that went undefended. @technohic had it right when he said that you telling us to “git gud” would only further transform the server into Vivec, effectively terminating what made it a draw for a majority of its inhabitants.

I understand you have the right to play anyway you want. The question here though is whether you should. There is a time and place for that gameplay and its Vivec and i suppose at one point Sotha. Identifying that this is bigger than yourselves and taking steps to employ a degree of responsibility to the server is honestly what i have done this entire time. Shor is little salt, and very inviting because of that hard work and not a single person can deny it.

Its simple: if you dont see anyone else doing on the server, don t do it.

That goes for not just destro bombing, but gate camping, teabagging etc.

So thats it. Its a dead horse at this point. Im advocating for server preservation and personal responsibility. Youre advocating for playing how YOU want, to hell with the rest. Id say this was pretty black and white for everyone and ive said all i can say on the matter.

And when its all said and done, it wasnt CN or DC that killed Shor, it was AD and the good ol boys from TM

And. Beetlejuice!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J_A8RV0qH4U

Chrlynsch

Munavar wrote: »

Stop the presses! Marek made an error! He stated '6' instead of '4' during a very short window of time as the group was forming. There were '6' by the 3rd encounter. Kart provided video 'evidence'.

The amusing thing is the general lack of destros (especially with the engagements with DC). Sorry Werewolves, they had their hides singed from time to time.

It may be me, but it sure appears to be more than a '1 button' play style.

Hot Hot Hot!

Munavar

Rickter, What did I miss? The fact that players not spec'd for damage were not going to handle 2:1 odds?

You may want to watch again...
1) the mine fight (1:18 - 2:45). It was 11 DC vs ~6 AD. At least 4 of those 6 (I cannot speak for the 2 randoms) were tank\healers. (2:45 - 3:32) was the clean up when it was 'fair' fight. Did any DC actually die in that first minute and a half?

2) the farm fight (3:42 - 4:57). The 2.5:1 odds with again 4 of the 6 players being tank\healers (probably the actual fight Marek was referencing and one of the engagements that you commented on).

After the Nikel fight, I think that DC does not make a return appearance. You can always view the video to fact check that.

NBrookus

Rickter wrote: »

I
In any case im very surpised @NBrookus @Lord_Hev @Montayva @Takuto and @Durham have been entirely absent of this discussion. You guys helped me build Shor, and youve seemed to disappear or turn a blind eye.

I'm pretty much gone from ESO at his point. I logged in Thursday briefly, was repeated zerged and t-bagged by a full raid of EP. Saw no sign of campaign-killing AD while EP had emp and almost every keep and scroll.

Shor started dying for me when 20+ became the normal group size.

Kartalin

Munavar wrote: »

Rickter, What did I miss? The fact that players not spec'd for damage were not going to handle 2:1 odds?

You may want to watch again...
1) the mine fight (1:18 - 2:45). It was 11 DC vs ~6 AD. At least 4 of those 6 (I cannot speak for the 2 randoms) were tank\healers. (2:45 - 3:32) was the clean up when it was 'fair' fight. Did any DC actually die in that first minute and a half?

2) the farm fight (3:42 - 4:57). The 2.5:1 odds with again 4 of the 6 players being tank\healers (probably the actual fight Marek was referencing and one of the engagements that you commented on).

After the Nikel fight, I think that DC does not make a return appearance. You can always view the video to fact check that.

To be fair the mine fight was basically even numbers when you count the Dead Wait peeps there. May have been 1 higher on one side or another, but close enough.

The farm was 15 vs our 6, we didn't have any help there, just us. The later engagements were roughly even numbers, at the keep fight we had a few more AD show up at the end that were unaffiliated with us, and we did have npc help there as well.

@Chrlynsch Tried to whisper you afterwards, those were awesome fights at the chal mine, you very nearly had us.

Joshlenoir

Munavar wrote: »

Rickter, What did I miss? The fact that players not spec'd for damage were not going to handle 2:1 odds?

You may want to watch again...
1) the mine fight (1:18 - 2:45). It was 11 DC vs ~6 AD. At least 4 of those 6 (I cannot speak for the 2 randoms) were tank\healers. (2:45 - 3:32) was the clean up when it was 'fair' fight. Did any DC actually die in that first minute and a half?

2) the farm fight (3:42 - 4:57). The 2.5:1 odds with again 4 of the 6 players being tank\healers (probably the actual fight Marek was referencing and one of the engagements that you commented on).

After the Nikel fight, I think that DC does not make a return appearance. You can always view the video to fact check that.

In 100% of TM video's they are always getting help from randoms / pugs. Yes you don't control players that show up but don't make it look like your group "6v11'ed" someone when 2-3 other AD were there helping you, it's silly and dishonest.
This is especially why I dismiss 90% of videos / stories about keep takes / defences because they always follow this dynamic.

gabriebe

My favorite are the pictures with 'OMG 4 ADs vs 30 DCs' with a big round circle around the 4 ADs but there's 20 people dead in group...

Munavar

Josh,
Not being dishonest at all. Just watching the video (and actually being present) where the count bounced between 5-7 and usually sat at 6. Saw 3 AD randoms and knowing that I and Row had died at one point.

A_G_G_R_O

@Kartalin this is my favorite Renditioning of TM doing some slick "small scale".


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CsSeNG326VY

Rickter

NBrookus wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

I
In any case im very surpised @NBrookus @Lord_Hev @Montayva @Takuto and @Durham have been entirely absent of this discussion. You guys helped me build Shor, and youve seemed to disappear or turn a blind eye.

I'm pretty much gone from ESO at his point. I logged in Thursday briefly, was repeated zerged and t-bagged by a full raid of EP. Saw no sign of campaign-killing AD while EP had emp and almost every keep and scroll.

Shor started dying for me when 20+ became the normal group size.

Well then. I guess im the last of the old guard. Thats disappointing to hear. We’ve all had our faith in the server tested. All three of us left the server for a time when we thought things were at their worst. But we came back to finish what we started because the fights you get on Shor, cant be found anywhere else.

Your words make me sad.

Should i just fall on my blade? This honestly reminds me of the end of the samurai period for you history buffs. Is the destro ball meta th ewestern influence come to push out the obsolete feudal society? Destro/proxy/grothdar the muskets and howitzers come to replace the sword?

technohic

Its not really the destro ults to me. Its become earthgore and instant purge. Any damage winds up being autohealed and negated on top of the old healing spring spam, long with being unable to slow them down.

Chrlynsch

Kartalin wrote: »

Munavar wrote: »

Rickter, What did I miss? The fact that players not spec'd for damage were not going to handle 2:1 odds?

You may want to watch again...
1) the mine fight (1:18 - 2:45). It was 11 DC vs ~6 AD. At least 4 of those 6 (I cannot speak for the 2 randoms) were tank\healers. (2:45 - 3:32) was the clean up when it was 'fair' fight. Did any DC actually die in that first minute and a half?

2) the farm fight (3:42 - 4:57). The 2.5:1 odds with again 4 of the 6 players being tank\healers (probably the actual fight Marek was referencing and one of the engagements that you commented on).

After the Nikel fight, I think that DC does not make a return appearance. You can always view the video to fact check that.

To be fair the mine fight was basically even numbers when you count the Dead Wait peeps there. May have been 1 higher on one side or another, but close enough.

The farm was 15 vs our 6, we didn't have any help there, just us. The later engagements were roughly even numbers, at the keep fight we had a few more AD show up at the end that were unaffiliated with us, and we did have npc help there as well.

@Chrlynsch Tried to whisper you afterwards, those were awesome fights at the chal mine, you very nearly had us.

Lol there was one moment when "we" pushed on you in the bottom of the tower, where I knew we had you! I then proceeded to look around to see none of my other wolves with me or a single pug.

Some very touch and go moments there for sure!

NBrookus

Rickter wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Rickter wrote: »

I
In any case im very surpised @NBrookus @Lord_Hev @Montayva @Takuto and @Durham have been entirely absent of this discussion. You guys helped me build Shor, and youve seemed to disappear or turn a blind eye.

I'm pretty much gone from ESO at his point. I logged in Thursday briefly, was repeated zerged and t-bagged by a full raid of EP. Saw no sign of campaign-killing AD while EP had emp and almost every keep and scroll.

Shor started dying for me when 20+ became the normal group size.

Well then. I guess im the last of the old guard. Thats disappointing to hear. We’ve all had our faith in the server tested. All three of us left the server for a time when we thought things were at their worst. But we came back to finish what we started because the fights you get on Shor, cant be found anywhere else.

Your words make me sad.

I've left ESO and come back before; it might happen again. I've been staying more for the people than anything else for while, so I may pop in from time to time.

But I'd have to see major changes to PvP to seriously return, and I doubt that will happen.

Sylphie

Come help out DC out in Sotha

Literally just myself and 2 other DCs online vs 2 bars AD/EP today at around 4pm EST.

Lord_Hev

@Rickter

Monty and I have been taking breaks from pvp, due to the stressful nature of trying to 2vX when all that will ever engage us, are people sieging from a keep wall, medium & large groups, or entire zergs.


As for the "guild in question" I second your notion, that they do not belong on this server. If they want to run a toxic meta, then they should do so on the server that actually justifies it. And they can freely propagate it with everyone else on that server whom all run the -same- garbage... to counter the garbage... all in the name of fighting back against the garbage, by having to resort to the garbage. That's a lot of garbage.


When I ran groups on EP with our BCC 8 - 12 man. We had no issue not only fighting groups larger then us, but also heavily influencing the map. And we did it with only 1 singular healer 75% of the time(@Montayva running a 1vX build, not a dedicated healing build) and the other 25% we we would have Brookus & Lith(@Joseuv95) on actual healing builds, for a total of 2 - 3 healers). And 100% of the time we had zero destro ults. Zero Earthgore. Zero Bull****.


So in my honest opinion, the whole argument about "these group cheese builds are needed to fight twice our number" is their decision to crutch on, and entirely subjective. As our group have shown that we can find challenging fights against the odds, behind enemy lines, and even on the front line, with none of that garbage. All we needed was individual skill, and cohesive movement And in that regard, top notch guilds like "Adamant," "Animosity," and "Campaign Killers"(these 3 as an immediate example, I know there are more smallscale guilds/groups out there, I do not mean to omit any of you) do the same thing we do. They can fight a large number of pugs with a solid 8 man group. That includes even a full pug zerg with the right terrain and movement. And I know for a fact that they(@A_G_G_R_O @manny254 @Irylia correct me if I am wrong) have done so with zero destro ults, and zero Earthgore. None of that zergling BS. We have shown it. They show it. It is with an objective assertion that a larger force -can- be fought without having to resort to such garbage. There is no excuse. If you want to run the garbage meta, then that is your decision to make, not a necessity. Therefore, you freely encourage this toxic meta, and influence it even further through the decision. It does not matter if you run 8, 12, or 24. You influence the meta, and will make more and more people slowly convert to it, and further ruin pvp that is delicate and strenuous to begin with.


Is it easy? No. Is it the most efficient way? Nope. But why do we do it? Because it is genuine fulfillment. The fights are exhilarating because not a single member of our groups can make too many mistakes, as each mistake can potentially cost us a fight in a moment's notice. We value every win we get, and feel like we actually improve with each fight.


Compare that to a group that runs the bull****. One mistake? Earthgore. 5 mistakes? Earthgore. 3, 2, 1, Destro ults!. Oh, we lost 2 of our DPS? It's ok, we got another 3 destro ults in reserve. Being pressured, its ok we got healer tanks with Earthgore. Take your time guys, and build your next destro ult so we can skillfully use them all in conjunction. LETS GO TEAM.


Go to Vivec please. We do not want that garbage seeding itself on this server.

PenguinInACan

Lord_Hev wrote: »

@Rickter

Monty and I have been taking breaks from pvp, due to the stressful nature of trying to 2vX when all that will ever engage us, are people sieging from a keep wall, medium & large groups, or entire zergs.


As for the "guild in question" I second your notion, that they do not belong on this server. If they want to run a toxic meta, then they should do so on the server that actually justifies it. And they can freely propagate it with everyone else on that server whom all run the -same- garbage... to counter the garbage... all in the name of fighting back against the garbage, by having to resort to the garbage. That's a lot of garbage.


When I ran groups on EP with our BCC 8 - 12 man. We had no issue not only fighting groups larger then us, but also heavily influencing the map. And we did it with only 1 singular healer 75% of the time(@Montayva running a 1vX build, not a dedicated healing build) and the other 25% we we would have Brookus & Lith(@Joseuv95) on actual healing builds, for a total of 2 - 3 healers). And 100% of the time we had zero destro ults. Zero Earthgore. Zero Bull****.


So in my honest opinion, the whole argument about "these group cheese builds are needed to fight twice our number" is their decision to crutch on, and entirely subjective. As our group have shown that we can find challenging fights against the odds, behind enemy lines, and even on the front line, with none of that garbage. All we needed was individual skill, and cohesive movement And in that regard, top notch guilds like "Adamant," "Animosity," and "Campaign Killers"(these 3 as an immediate example, I know there are more smallscale guilds/groups out there, I do not mean to omit any of you) do the same thing we do. They can fight a large number of pugs with a solid 8 man group. That includes even a full pug zerg with the right terrain and movement. And I know for a fact that they(@A_G_G_R_O @manny254 @Irylia correct me if I am wrong) have done so with zero destro ults, and zero Earthgore. None of that zergling BS. We have shown it. They show it. It is with an objective assertion that a larger force -can- be fought without having to resort to such garbage. There is no excuse. If you want to run the garbage meta, then that is your decision to make, not a necessity. Therefore, you freely encourage this toxic meta, and influence it even further through the decision. It does not matter if you run 8, 12, or 24. You influence the meta, and will make more and more people slowly convert to it, and further ruin pvp that is delicate and strenuous to begin with.


Is it easy? No. Is it the most efficient way? Nope. But why do we do it? Because it is genuine fulfillment. The fights are exhilarating because not a single member of our groups can make too many mistakes, as each mistake can potentially cost us a fight in a moment's notice. We value every win we get, and feel like we actually improve with each fight.


Compare that to a group that runs the bull****. One mistake? Earthgore. 5 mistakes? Earthgore. 3, 2, 1, Destro ults!. Oh, we lost 2 of our DPS? It's ok, we got another 3 destro ults in reserve. Being pressured, its ok we got healer tanks with Earthgore. Take your time guys, and build your next destro ult so we can skillfully use them all in conjunction. LETS GO TEAM.


Go to Vivec please. We do not want that garbage seeding itself on this server.

You of all people should know the "go to vivec, we dont want you here" is going to have the opposite effect on us...

As for "influencing the meta", clearly you haven't been reading the thread well enough. Its been made very clear that Shor is a place free of the meta, and will never embrace the meta, and is better than the meta, and understands the meta better than the people playing in the meta.

I've honestly learned more about how I play from this thread than I have from playing. Who knew all I needed to do was to wear a 2 piece set and push R when I'm yelled at. I suppose that's why there are dozens of ball groups in Cyro at any given time running the easymode meta. /s

I don't see anyone bashing the small group metas or the 1vX metas which can be equally as "easymode", and I have never seen you run in a "zergling BS" group. So what makes you qualified to judge it?

And you're the last person I'd expect to advocate against people having fun doing what they think is fun where they want. Considering the trolling we have done with Panda etc. its too late for you to go all noble hero now.

gameswithaspoon

Rickter wrote: »

Lol whats going on here? I dont know who you are. But ok, i’ll play along:

I wish i could compare my revenge screenshots with you - but i dont think ive ever been killed by you first!

Whoaoohhh! Did i do that right? Im sort of confused.

Humor is still the best test of character out there. And you do know me.

*deep sigh*

Since you brought it up, please do not attempt to speak with any authority or compare anyone to the Blue Reign on Sotha Sil. You are inaccurate.

People should not cry wolf and compare everyone they don't like to those people.

Shor's thread should be about Shor.

Lord_Hev

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

@Rickter

Monty and I have been taking breaks from pvp, due to the stressful nature of trying to 2vX when all that will ever engage us, are people sieging from a keep wall, medium & large groups, or entire zergs.


As for the "guild in question" I second your notion, that they do not belong on this server. If they want to run a toxic meta, then they should do so on the server that actually justifies it. And they can freely propagate it with everyone else on that server whom all run the -same- garbage... to counter the garbage... all in the name of fighting back against the garbage, by having to resort to the garbage. That's a lot of garbage.


When I ran groups on EP with our BCC 8 - 12 man. We had no issue not only fighting groups larger then us, but also heavily influencing the map. And we did it with only 1 singular healer 75% of the time(@Montayva running a 1vX build, not a dedicated healing build) and the other 25% we we would have Brookus & Lith(@Joseuv95) on actual healing builds, for a total of 2 - 3 healers). And 100% of the time we had zero destro ults. Zero Earthgore. Zero Bull****.


So in my honest opinion, the whole argument about "these group cheese builds are needed to fight twice our number" is their decision to crutch on, and entirely subjective. As our group have shown that we can find challenging fights against the odds, behind enemy lines, and even on the front line, with none of that garbage. All we needed was individual skill, and cohesive movement And in that regard, top notch guilds like "Adamant," "Animosity," and "Campaign Killers"(these 3 as an immediate example, I know there are more smallscale guilds/groups out there, I do not mean to omit any of you) do the same thing we do. They can fight a large number of pugs with a solid 8 man group. That includes even a full pug zerg with the right terrain and movement. And I know for a fact that they(@A_G_G_R_O @manny254 @Irylia correct me if I am wrong) have done so with zero destro ults, and zero Earthgore. None of that zergling BS. We have shown it. They show it. It is with an objective assertion that a larger force -can- be fought without having to resort to such garbage. There is no excuse. If you want to run the garbage meta, then that is your decision to make, not a necessity. Therefore, you freely encourage this toxic meta, and influence it even further through the decision. It does not matter if you run 8, 12, or 24. You influence the meta, and will make more and more people slowly convert to it, and further ruin pvp that is delicate and strenuous to begin with.


Is it easy? No. Is it the most efficient way? Nope. But why do we do it? Because it is genuine fulfillment. The fights are exhilarating because not a single member of our groups can make too many mistakes, as each mistake can potentially cost us a fight in a moment's notice. We value every win we get, and feel like we actually improve with each fight.


Compare that to a group that runs the bull****. One mistake? Earthgore. 5 mistakes? Earthgore. 3, 2, 1, Destro ults!. Oh, we lost 2 of our DPS? It's ok, we got another 3 destro ults in reserve. Being pressured, its ok we got healer tanks with Earthgore. Take your time guys, and build your next destro ult so we can skillfully use them all in conjunction. LETS GO TEAM.


Go to Vivec please. We do not want that garbage seeding itself on this server.

You of all people should know the "go to vivec, we dont want you here" is going to have the opposite effect on us...

As for "influencing the meta", clearly you haven't been reading the thread well enough. Its been made very clear that Shor is a place free of the meta, and will never embrace the meta, and is better than the meta, and understands the meta better than the people playing in the meta.

I've honestly learned more about how I play from this thread than I have from playing. Who knew all I needed to do was to wear a 2 piece set and push R when I'm yelled at. I suppose that's why there are dozens of ball groups in Cyro at any given time running the easymode meta. /s

I don't see anyone bashing the small group metas or the 1vX metas which can be equally as "easymode", and I have never seen you run in a "zergling BS" group. So what makes you qualified to judge it?

And you're the last person I'd expect to advocate against people having fun doing what they think is fun where they want. Considering the trolling we have done with Panda etc. its too late for you to go all noble hero now.

I'm not trying to be a noble hero, or advocate that I'm an expert in organized group mechanics. It may be anecdotal, but I, having played on Shor since it's inception; I cannot recall ever having to deal with the "meta" that is abundant on Vivec atm. I feel like you guys have taken this a bit too personal as some kind of criticism on your character. Perhaps it has, but i'm going to try and make this post oblivious to what has been argued in previous pages and want to speak on the core issue that Rickter brought up.


Your group functions as a "Ballgroup," I say this objectively. Whether you run 8, 12, 24. The numbers are irrelevant to the fact that as a whole, your group functions as a ball-group. Your group atm, from what I have witnessed, and momentarily fought against when I was emp on EP, was far drastic then what has been encountered on Shor since the get-go. You all timed destro ults(multiple), there were Earthgore procs before my leap could even connect and register it's damage. And you all moved in unison "as a ball" with destro ults running as the main group DPS. It actually felt exactly what I would expect from any of the Vivec zergs. That is to say, a "Pain-train destro ult meta." How small you say you were "8 - 10 members" does not matter in the fundamental argument being made here.


As for our trolling with Panda, we did so as a small group. We were not running anything resembling the group meta. Your guild right now, do not lie through your teeth; are speccd to fight Vivec zergs. And you are speccd as such because the Vivec zergs... are speccd as such. I can go to Vivec even now this instant, and find any pug zerg that are guild based with a discord for crown calls, and they will be calling destro ult stacks and have earthgore procs. Granted, they are sloppy and that is why you guys can handle them with greatly reduced numbers. But fundamentally, both you and the zerg you are fighting, are running something resembling this "destro pain-train meta."


This is what Rickter is trying to illustrate with his ecosystem comments. I can reinforce the notion, because I have played Shor in virtually all time zones, on a very consistent daily basis. Your guild is the first to bring that "ball-group" meta into this server, and that is what Rickter keeps talking about. I'm not trying to discredit how your guild runs, or make this a salt war. I'm trying to remain as objective as possible.


So, let me ask you directly. Do you find it fun causing the forum war here with Rickter? Knowing you, im going to assume yes. That's all fine and dandy. But do you consider the long term ramifications? What happens if your group, and the way you guys are built to fight(and in particular, fight -against-) home here regularly? Would you not expect that presence to eventually coerce other guilds to adapt to the pain train destro meta, and run it, or an adaptation of it themselves?

The results I foresee in my opinion: 1.) you guys stay and imbalance the server, causing stubborn groups to leave out of frustration

2.) no one leaves, but instead adapts and runs the same meta, and thus turning shor into a mini Vivec due to the perceived notion of having to fight fire with fire


So in these 2 results, the 2nd one can be argued that pvp will continue to exist on Shor. But this is the outcome Rickter is debating you guys on. And I'm going to back him up here because fundamentally, I agree with what he is trying to say. Aside from lags and zergs, the one other thing Shor had going for it, was the lack of this pain train destro meta. The reason being, because there was never a -reason- for it.


Food for thought. I would like you to seriously consider what I, and Rickter have been trying to explain. Nevermind the salt and lolz. Maybe you felt differently in your few times here. I can't say, as I have not been on Shor when you guys were on, and I lack personal context to address the full situation. I know Rickter can be very vocal, and it's easy to misinterpret as just "general salt." So, this is just something for you guys to consider. I'm basing my view on what I have seen, im not going to try and dictate how you guys play. But I do ask that you consider the ramifications of your actions.


IMO, TM atm is designed and built to fight Vivec zergs. That is why I say, to go to Vivec. I hope that clears things a bit.

PenguinInACan

Lord_Hev wrote: »

PenguinInACan wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

@Rickter

Monty and I have been taking breaks from pvp, due to the stressful nature of trying to 2vX when all that will ever engage us, are people sieging from a keep wall, medium & large groups, or entire zergs.


As for the "guild in question" I second your notion, that they do not belong on this server. If they want to run a toxic meta, then they should do so on the server that actually justifies it. And they can freely propagate it with everyone else on that server whom all run the -same- garbage... to counter the garbage... all in the name of fighting back against the garbage, by having to resort to the garbage. That's a lot of garbage.


When I ran groups on EP with our BCC 8 - 12 man. We had no issue not only fighting groups larger then us, but also heavily influencing the map. And we did it with only 1 singular healer 75% of the time(@Montayva running a 1vX build, not a dedicated healing build) and the other 25% we we would have Brookus & Lith(@Joseuv95) on actual healing builds, for a total of 2 - 3 healers). And 100% of the time we had zero destro ults. Zero Earthgore. Zero Bull****.


So in my honest opinion, the whole argument about "these group cheese builds are needed to fight twice our number" is their decision to crutch on, and entirely subjective. As our group have shown that we can find challenging fights against the odds, behind enemy lines, and even on the front line, with none of that garbage. All we needed was individual skill, and cohesive movement And in that regard, top notch guilds like "Adamant," "Animosity," and "Campaign Killers"(these 3 as an immediate example, I know there are more smallscale guilds/groups out there, I do not mean to omit any of you) do the same thing we do. They can fight a large number of pugs with a solid 8 man group. That includes even a full pug zerg with the right terrain and movement. And I know for a fact that they(@A_G_G_R_O @manny254 @Irylia correct me if I am wrong) have done so with zero destro ults, and zero Earthgore. None of that zergling BS. We have shown it. They show it. It is with an objective assertion that a larger force -can- be fought without having to resort to such garbage. There is no excuse. If you want to run the garbage meta, then that is your decision to make, not a necessity. Therefore, you freely encourage this toxic meta, and influence it even further through the decision. It does not matter if you run 8, 12, or 24. You influence the meta, and will make more and more people slowly convert to it, and further ruin pvp that is delicate and strenuous to begin with.


Is it easy? No. Is it the most efficient way? Nope. But why do we do it? Because it is genuine fulfillment. The fights are exhilarating because not a single member of our groups can make too many mistakes, as each mistake can potentially cost us a fight in a moment's notice. We value every win we get, and feel like we actually improve with each fight.


Compare that to a group that runs the bull****. One mistake? Earthgore. 5 mistakes? Earthgore. 3, 2, 1, Destro ults!. Oh, we lost 2 of our DPS? It's ok, we got another 3 destro ults in reserve. Being pressured, its ok we got healer tanks with Earthgore. Take your time guys, and build your next destro ult so we can skillfully use them all in conjunction. LETS GO TEAM.


Go to Vivec please. We do not want that garbage seeding itself on this server.

You of all people should know the "go to vivec, we dont want you here" is going to have the opposite effect on us...

As for "influencing the meta", clearly you haven't been reading the thread well enough. Its been made very clear that Shor is a place free of the meta, and will never embrace the meta, and is better than the meta, and understands the meta better than the people playing in the meta.

I've honestly learned more about how I play from this thread than I have from playing. Who knew all I needed to do was to wear a 2 piece set and push R when I'm yelled at. I suppose that's why there are dozens of ball groups in Cyro at any given time running the easymode meta. /s

I don't see anyone bashing the small group metas or the 1vX metas which can be equally as "easymode", and I have never seen you run in a "zergling BS" group. So what makes you qualified to judge it?

And you're the last person I'd expect to advocate against people having fun doing what they think is fun where they want. Considering the trolling we have done with Panda etc. its too late for you to go all noble hero now.

I'm not trying to be a noble hero, or advocate that I'm an expert in organized group mechanics. It may be anecdotal, but I, having played on Shor since it's inception; I cannot recall ever having to deal with the "meta" that is abundant on Vivec atm. I feel like you guys have taken this a bit too personal as some kind of criticism on your character. Perhaps it has, but i'm going to try and make this post oblivious to what has been argued in previous pages and want to speak on the core issue that Rickter brought up.


Your group functions as a "Ballgroup," I say this objectively. Whether you run 8, 12, 24. The numbers are irrelevant to the fact that as a whole, your group functions as a ball-group. Your group atm, from what I have witnessed, and momentarily fought against when I was emp on EP, was far drastic then what has been encountered on Shor since the get-go. You all timed destro ults(multiple), there were Earthgore procs before my leap could even connect and register it's damage. And you all moved in unison "as a ball" with destro ults running as the main group DPS. It actually felt exactly what I would expect from any of the Vivec zergs. That is to say, a "Pain-train destro ult meta." How small you say you were "8 - 10 members" does not matter in the fundamental argument being made here.


As for our trolling with Panda, we did so as a small group. We were not running anything resembling the group meta. Your guild right now, do not lie through your teeth; are speccd to fight Vivec zergs. And you are speccd as such because the Vivec zergs... are speccd as such. I can go to Vivec even now this instant, and find any pug zerg that are guild based with a discord for crown calls, and they will be calling destro ult stacks and have earthgore procs. Granted, they are sloppy and that is why you guys can handle them with greatly reduced numbers. But fundamentally, both you and the zerg you are fighting, are running something resembling this "destro pain-train meta."


This is what Rickter is trying to illustrate with his ecosystem comments. I can reinforce the notion, because I have played Shor in virtually all time zones, on a very consistent daily basis. Your guild is the first to bring that "ball-group" meta into this server, and that is what Rickter keeps talking about. I'm not trying to discredit how your guild runs, or make this a salt war. I'm trying to remain as objective as possible.


So, let me ask you directly. Do you find it fun causing the forum war here with Rickter? Knowing you, im going to assume yes. That's all fine and dandy. But do you consider the long term ramifications? What happens if your group, and the way you guys are built to fight(and in particular, fight -against-) home here regularly? Would you not expect that presence to eventually coerce other guilds to adapt to the pain train destro meta, and run it, or an adaptation of it themselves?

The results I foresee in my opinion: 1.) you guys stay and imbalance the server, causing stubborn groups to leave out of frustration

2.) no one leaves, but instead adapts and runs the same meta, and thus turning shor into a mini Vivec due to the perceived notion of having to fight fire with fire


So in these 2 results, the 2nd one can be argued that pvp will continue to exist on Shor. But this is the outcome Rickter is debating you guys on. And I'm going to back him up here because fundamentally, I agree with what he is trying to say. Aside from lags and zergs, the one other thing Shor had going for it, was the lack of this pain train destro meta. The reason being, because there was never a -reason- for it.


Food for thought. I would like you to seriously consider what I, and Rickter have been trying to explain. Nevermind the salt and lolz. Maybe you felt differently in your few times here. I can't say, as I have not been on Shor when you guys were on, and I lack personal context to address the full situation. I know Rickter can be very vocal, and it's easy to misinterpret as just "general salt." So, this is just something for you guys to consider. I'm basing my view on what I have seen, im not going to try and dictate how you guys play. But I do ask that you consider the ramifications of your actions.


IMO, TM atm is designed and built to fight Vivec zergs. That is why I say, to go to Vivec. I hope that clears things a bit.

We obviously know the meta is designed to be used on Vivec. That's why we are homed on Vivec and end up on Vivec every night. I have no problem with what anyone is trying to build on Shor. I just don't like the kneejerk "these guys are ruining our server" reactions to what was initially 2 nights out of 2 weeks of 8-12 people playing on a server for 2 hours. I have no plans to home Shor on anything I play in our main groups, and I don't believe we as a group have any plans to home on Shor. IMO this whole "thing" was blown way out of proportion and could have been easily fixed in game without resorting to forum PvP. But now there is salt and drama and I'm not going to ignore it. I have always enjoyed forum PvP, it fuels the actual PvP.

As for imbalancing the server, I think the emp and forget zergs do a lot more to imbalance things than we do, and looking back at previous Shor threads and salt, I'd say that was the general consensus before we had the horrible idea to see what Shor is like. If it honestly takes as little as just existing, not gate camping, not scroll farming, not camping tri keeps, not even pushing an emperor-ship...just existing around bleakers for an hour or two once or twice a week, to turn the server into Vivec or a ghost town, I'd say we aren't the problem in Shor.

But people are going to complain no matter what we do. People complained when we weren't running the meta. I get that it helps some people to vent about things they don't like. And I also get that people have different opinions on gameplay. It's my opinion that us playing on Shor periodically isn't going to have any long term effects, and all of the salt is just an immediate reaction that will go away leaving Shor no different than before. Because let's be honest here, if one specific playstyle of a dozen people is enough to make people leave or quit, they probably didn't enjoy the game to begin with.

manny254

Can we just drop all of this? At this point the conversation is just toxic and unconstructive. I personally do not like the games current meta for group play of any size, but you guys are overall treating TM unfairly. The arguments are starting to degrade into personal attacks, and I don't blame them for trying to defend themselves from personal attacks.

I genuinely don't understand why they are getting some much flak, but there where no complaints about PM running larger groups in shor while abusing this "meta" much more.

I do have opinions on the conversation, but I have no interest in participating in something so unconstructive and toxic.

jaysins

I've played in group with TM before and one or two button mechanics are all they do when in their larger groups. As Josh said, just own up to it. In your teamspeak which I've participated in, which I loathe over discord btw, "build ult, stack on crown, ult bomb push. OK, clear comms, build ult" rinse and repeat. Kita and I very easily beat a stamwarden emp of yours in a 2v2 and we have footage of this feat if you ever want to dispute it. After beating them they came back with more than double our numbers as a 2 on 2 while being an emperor just wasn't an inherent enough advantage I guess, and zerged us down. This is coming from someone who almost exclusively plays AD and will only hop on EP when it's really lopsided, so my perspective is of someone who usually fights on the same side as you, not against.

Your large group play is just very simple with few mechanics and doesn't teach one how to excel on their own or how to play their class well. Which is fine, but stop being delusional that that's not the case. Zerg and destro bomb till your hearts content, but don't feed us lies to try and appease your egos and then get defensive at us for not buying into them. Last night you destro bombed a group of five of us when you had roughly three times the numbers. I saw probably four destro ults, there may have been more, so about one for each of the players in my group, nice. You say you don't like Vivec, then why bring the worst parts of Vivec to Shor? My opinion from you and other of your members posting is that you don't like the challenge of it. You're bringing the lag, ball zerg, and saltiness of it right with you which as long as you're on the winning side of, you're ok with. So welcome to Shor, enjoy your stay, but please try to be more honest with yourselves and us on the forums.