Powerful Assault is the BiS for heal in 4-6 mans content.

rustic_potato · October 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Your point doesn't make any sense.

You say that it's a BiS build for pugging around in dungeons. You say that buffing their damage would result in more DPS than doing DPS yourself with the occasional flash heal. I hope you are aware that most pugs will be dealing around 10k DPS. In your best case scenario, that means 3k more DPS when you buff their damage by 30% (which, let's be honest, is never gonna happen).

So if you would go DPS, you'd need to hit over the 6k dps mark to provide more to the group than your whacky setup.

Now when you put it that way I have to agree Heal must wear SPC+Worm or Mending like most do.
Or there shouldnt be a heal but a 35k dps dd in every group.
Or what is the point of your comment exactly?
Do you even realize that 400 spell/weapon power for a dd with under 2000 will result in 20% dps boost?

You can't honestly think that's true, are you forgetting that damage doesn't come from SD/WD alone? Do you think that major brutality/sorcery boosts your damage by 20%?

For my heal with under 2k spell power a buff of 400 reaults in increase over 20% dps. I can supply parse but too lazy to do it. This is pretty obvious. How much you thought it is?

Depends on the build but a 20% increase in spell power is only about an 8% increase in damage since a lot of your damage as a magicka user comes from your large magicka pool.

I don't think this ia straight line linear. A player with 2k spell power will get a boost of 20% for additional 400, while the player with 4k will get only 8%

OMG please learn the game mechanics before you theorycraft. I respect theorycrafters but when they have no clue what they are talking about it is so hilarious. There are resources out there that you can use before you make a complete fool out of yourself.

IronCrystal · October 2017

rustic_potato wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Yngol wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Yngol wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Grabmoore wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Blobsky wrote: »

You do know that set gives 164 weapon and spell damage, not 400 right

The point is players getting instant PA+SPC buff. Just go ahead and test it. Check out the uptime of SPC in trials and 4 mans content.

I personally prefer 5 SPC and 5 MasterArchitect for 4 man content. Coupled with resto ulti for 6 second major force(2/3 of horn uptime with half the cost) it has a pretty good uptime of Mas 5 piece.

You could wear whatever you like. In trials however I would use the tools that always worked.

@Masel92 @Grabmoore In vDSA PA+SPC+Agressive horn outperforming Master architect. I checked this while you are theorycrafting and overlooking the actual benefits of PA like uptime of both SPC and PA buffs.

Vigor is stronger HoT than Regeneration and its morphs.
Resto staff ult is liable to get a nerf to its cost next patch

Hey, as a holder of multiple 44k+ scores in vdsa, I can tell you that a) healers are obsolete in vdsa b) even if they weren't, i wouldn't want mine in spc+PA (thats what the vdsa tank wears). Cheers

Your (a) statement is equal to "healers are obsolete in 4 mans content" don't you find?

What you wanted to say perhaps is that you've spent enough time in vDSA to run it without heals. Do you think this shall justify to remove Heal role from 4 mans content?

The most funny is when people listen to opinions like yours without understanding what you mean, and then they go to vDSA and start spamming shields and vigors. When you look at their group dps it's lower than if they would run normally with heal.

My heal will give a team up to 30% damage boost together with heals it will deliver, resources and around 10% groups dps. So bringing DD instead of a well built heal isn't that uber buff, and for a random group will always result in dps loss and worse score. I make 38k easy with randoms when it's weekly. So to make 44k with constant group doesn't seems like an amusing score. 38k = 6 deaths, 2 by mistake and 4 a single wipe on last boss because we are rusty. so 44k is nothing to brag about and surely not a reasons to remove heal from your group.

You know what, I'd even think that you can do better than 44k if you are running with built up group with a good heal running PA+SPC and regular Ebon+Alkosh tank. No need to get outta your skin for that score.

No my statement means exactly what it says; healers are obsolete in dsa. And whilst 44k is certainly not the best score of all time, I challenge you to do better than that with a scp+PA healer. If you're PC NA or PC EU, I'll even give you 50k gold Also, spc+PA gives nowhere near a 30% dps boost (i don't know where you got that number from)

30% is what I get in 12 man raids from a tank, two healers, three other stamina dds with NMG, Sunderflame (I wear that myself) and War machine, so probably the best scenario possible, here's an example:

Zhaj'hassa in vMoL, 49k single target with all raidbuffs:

And a solo parse with the exact same setup:

Calculate the difference:

49/38-1=28% dps difference between a 12-man raid and solo with all buffs and debuffs applied. Varlariel would be a better comparison as it is basically a wispmother target dummy but still, 30% dps boost is plain false.

Can't see your buffs there so I can't comment.
Offbalance = 10%
Combat Prayer = 8%
SPC+PA = 7+% (on my heal test vs dummy it's over 20% but mainly because of low spell power)
War Horn - few more percents
Power Of The Light = few more percents
Crusher = few more percents
DD's stop spamming shield and vigor = few more percents
Heals own DPS = several more percents

Is it OK now to say that Heal will boost groups dps by 30%?

PA used to a meme set used to buff parse of a few DD in fights like valariel even there an offtank with vigor uses it.

In Homestead patch PA was always used by the off-tank. As long as there were like 3 or 4 synergies being thrown, you could get 90%+ uptime.

paulsimonps · October 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

This single thread shows how bad community in trying out things and relie mostly on copy/paste builds. I see many people here who are 100% sure that if heal is running with less than 35k magicka pool team will start wiping non stop. On the other hand there are players who are farming hardest 4 man content with 3 dd's without even checking if this is profitable first. The amusement of heals buffs groups damage by 30% just shows how underrated this role is, and mostly because players play it in same manner in 4 and 12 man content.

If you showed this as a fun out of the box build to try then we would have not jumped down your throat on this. HOWEVER You claimed this to be the BEST POSSIBLE SET COMBINATION. Its clearly fricking not. This has nothing to do with blindly following meta. You have showed NO MATH TO SUPPORT YOUR CLAIMS, made NO COMPARISON TO OTHER BUILDS, and showed NO PROPER PARSES. There is nothing to back up your claim. And your "math" is baseless and is just assumptions that are way way off.

You sir are either trolling or the worst theorcrafter I have ever seen.

idk · October 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

This single thread shows how bad community in trying out things and relie mostly on copy/paste builds. I see many people here who are 100% sure that if heal is running with less than 35k magicka pool team will start wiping non stop. On the other hand there are players who are farming hardest 4 man content with 3 dd's without even checking if this is profitable first. The amusement of heals buffs groups damage by 30% just shows how underrated this role is, and mostly because players play it in same manner in 4 and 12 man content.

Not at all. Much has been theorycrafted then actually tested in the most challenging PvE content (since that is essentially what is being discussed here).

The groups that truly work on getting great scores in the group content work hard to figure out what is best for them. As even Woeler pointed out in this thread, PA is best worn by a tank and he considers that questionable. On a healer it makes their heals weaker since it sacrifices max magicka and spell damage from 4 possible slots to grant this small buff. SPC does not sacrifice heals to give it's buff.

Even for small groups, I seriously doubt any of the top scores in vDSA had a healer, or anyone, wearing PA. Show us a top 10 score with the healer using PA and maybe we can talk.

Kneighbors · October 2017

Masel92 wrote: »

This thread is still going?

Kneighbors wrote: »

This single thread shows how bad community in trying out things and relie mostly on copy/paste builds. I see many people here who are 100% sure that if heal is running with less than 35k magicka pool team will start wiping non stop. On the other hand there are players who are farming hardest 4 man content with 3 dd's without even checking if this is profitable first. The amusement of heals buffs groups damage by 30% just shows how underrated this role is, and mostly because players play it in same manner in 4 and 12 man content.

Oh this triggers me. I'm an inventor of outside the box builds, but in order to not waste time of other people, you have to have a certain degree of effectivity. On damage dealers the border is usually around 30k for me, and for support roles, it largely depends on the group what you do. This is however a suboptimal build in any regard, so there's no point in trying it out.

The fact that you say that 400 spell damage is 20% dps increase tells me that you lack understanding of the core functions behind the game.

rustic_potato wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Your point doesn't make any sense.

You say that it's a BiS build for pugging around in dungeons. You say that buffing their damage would result in more DPS than doing DPS yourself with the occasional flash heal. I hope you are aware that most pugs will be dealing around 10k DPS. In your best case scenario, that means 3k more DPS when you buff their damage by 30% (which, let's be honest, is never gonna happen).

So if you would go DPS, you'd need to hit over the 6k dps mark to provide more to the group than your whacky setup.

Now when you put it that way I have to agree Heal must wear SPC+Worm or Mending like most do.
Or there shouldnt be a heal but a 35k dps dd in every group.
Or what is the point of your comment exactly?
Do you even realize that 400 spell/weapon power for a dd with under 2000 will result in 20% dps boost?

You can't honestly think that's true, are you forgetting that damage doesn't come from SD/WD alone? Do you think that major brutality/sorcery boosts your damage by 20%?

For my heal with under 2k spell power a buff of 400 reaults in increase over 20% dps. I can supply parse but too lazy to do it. This is pretty obvious. How much you thought it is?

Depends on the build but a 20% increase in spell power is only about an 8% increase in damage since a lot of your damage as a magicka user comes from your large magicka pool.

I don't think this ia straight line linear. A player with 2k spell power will get a boost of 20% for additional 400, while the player with 4k will get only 8%

OMG please learn the game mechanics before you theorycraft. I respect theorycrafters but when they have no clue what they are talking about it is so hilarious. There are resources out there that you can use before you make a complete fool out of yourself.

This is the point. Maybe too much of your "understanding" of theorycrafting is what prevents you from thinking out of the box and trying different from banal options. I don't have to theorycraft because I have access to all the listed sets here and many many more.

Olupajmibanan · October 2017

The formula to calculate damage increase gained from spell damage is:
(SDgained*buffs*10,46)/(maxmagicka+SDbeforegain*buffs*10,46)
Source: http://tamrielfoundry.com/topic/introduction-to-pve-damage-calculation-homestead/

So let's assume a pug player with 2000 spell damage and 36k magicka. Let's assume 100% uptime on major and minor sorcery.
Powerful assault gives 164 spell damage.

(164*1,25*10,46)/(36000+2000*1,25*10,46)=0,0345

So Powerful Assault (at 100% uptime) would lead to an average 3,45% damage increase.

To note, the higher the SD and magicka of the player is, the less increase will he get from further increasing of these stats.

PA is only sub-optimal option even in 4-man content, but if it works for you OP than it's okay. You found your own playstyle and that's great. But do not try to force others to run what you think is the best. We others have our own ideas of BiS sets (Infallible Aether, Twilight Remedy, Worm, Mending).

An advice, abandon this thread. Just quietly play your PA if you like. You would do 1000000 times better.

Masel · October 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This thread is still going?

Kneighbors wrote: »

This single thread shows how bad community in trying out things and relie mostly on copy/paste builds. I see many people here who are 100% sure that if heal is running with less than 35k magicka pool team will start wiping non stop. On the other hand there are players who are farming hardest 4 man content with 3 dd's without even checking if this is profitable first. The amusement of heals buffs groups damage by 30% just shows how underrated this role is, and mostly because players play it in same manner in 4 and 12 man content.

Oh this triggers me. I'm an inventor of outside the box builds, but in order to not waste time of other people, you have to have a certain degree of effectivity. On damage dealers the border is usually around 30k for me, and for support roles, it largely depends on the group what you do. This is however a suboptimal build in any regard, so there's no point in trying it out.

The fact that you say that 400 spell damage is 20% dps increase tells me that you lack understanding of the core functions behind the game.

rustic_potato wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Your point doesn't make any sense.

You say that it's a BiS build for pugging around in dungeons. You say that buffing their damage would result in more DPS than doing DPS yourself with the occasional flash heal. I hope you are aware that most pugs will be dealing around 10k DPS. In your best case scenario, that means 3k more DPS when you buff their damage by 30% (which, let's be honest, is never gonna happen).

So if you would go DPS, you'd need to hit over the 6k dps mark to provide more to the group than your whacky setup.

Now when you put it that way I have to agree Heal must wear SPC+Worm or Mending like most do.
Or there shouldnt be a heal but a 35k dps dd in every group.
Or what is the point of your comment exactly?
Do you even realize that 400 spell/weapon power for a dd with under 2000 will result in 20% dps boost?

You can't honestly think that's true, are you forgetting that damage doesn't come from SD/WD alone? Do you think that major brutality/sorcery boosts your damage by 20%?

For my heal with under 2k spell power a buff of 400 reaults in increase over 20% dps. I can supply parse but too lazy to do it. This is pretty obvious. How much you thought it is?

Depends on the build but a 20% increase in spell power is only about an 8% increase in damage since a lot of your damage as a magicka user comes from your large magicka pool.

I don't think this ia straight line linear. A player with 2k spell power will get a boost of 20% for additional 400, while the player with 4k will get only 8%

OMG please learn the game mechanics before you theorycraft. I respect theorycrafters but when they have no clue what they are talking about it is so hilarious. There are resources out there that you can use before you make a complete fool out of yourself.

This is the point. Maybe too much of your "understanding" of theorycrafting is what prevents you from thinking out of the box and trying different from banal options. I don't have to theorycraft because I have access to all the listed sets here and many many more.

This doesn't even make sense... Banal options you say? Because i came up with off-balance builds for Magicka DKs and Mag Sorcs, because I use red mountain on my Stamina DK, because i use a Twohander on my stamina nightblade? Because I flawlessed vMA on a Bow/Bow Build? You dont understand theorycrafting. Theorycrafting is checking out builds that make mathematical sense and then TESTING their effectiveness extensively before posting stuff like you did here. We dont see any comparison parses that prove your point, we dont see any scores, all you gave us is cheesy math that doesnt add up. I'd never claim a setup i come up with is BiS in a certain scenario because you don`t know if there's something better out there, even if you tested extensively.

How are you able to be that stubborn to defend your point despite multiple people proving you wrong? Go to the UESP Build editor, look at the formulas and then come back. If you still think that you are right about this, then I'll give up trying to convince you. That Build editor is based on data collected INGAME and then put into regressions to assess the linear functions behind damage (and healing) that the game uses, and it is nearly 100% correct.

Asardes · October 2017

Typical average values for optimized DD builds are about:
3K spell damage and 42K magicka pool for a Magicka DD which is roughly 7K spell power
4K weapon damage and 37K stamina pool for a Stamina DD which is roughly 7.5K weapon power
Adding 205 weapon and spell power to that (powerful assault amplified by minor/major sorcery/brutality) would increase the damage by a whooping ... 2.7-3%. That's less than 1K extra DPS on a 30K parse. If you buff 4 DDs it's 4K, if you buff 2 DDs it's 2K or less. Basically useless, even on a good trial group where you are hitting 4 people. Those have DPS in the 350K+ ballpark so you are adding slightly more than 1%. Who cares about that? By comparison, Alkosh, also a medium set, debuffs for 3K spell and physical resistance, which is a 4.5% increase while it's up. In a good group there are multiple synergies to be activated, so you can maybe achieve 65% uptime or better, so it's still a 3% increase overall. Running both on an off-tank was an option at some point, but since the multiple nerfs it has become almost impossible, since both are medium sets. So you'll have to choose, and the choice is pretty obvious.

hedna123b14_ESO · October 2017

If any of the people reading this thread actually put PA on a healer...you're an idiot...

SirCritical · October 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

It seems also ZoS is buffing Warden now for tanking.

More details pls.

Horowonnoe · October 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

code65536 wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

The problem with heals going dps is poor buffing and healing focus. From my experience heals who try to DPS are always weak on buffs, debuffs and resource sharing .

In case you missed the point that everyone is trying to tell you, in 4-man content, healer going DD is going to increase group DPS much more than healer throwing out a few extra buffs.

If you need a healer, then your build is pretty bad for healer. If you don't need a healer, then your group would benefit more from you going DD.

This is a niche build. It can work, because for 4-man content, pretty much anything can work. But is not competitive. And certainly not BiS. Which is the problem here: if you titled your thread, "fun build to try", people wouldn't be jumping down your throat. But the claim that it's "BiS" needs to meet a much higher bar.

Ok, so you are going same way several people here already went. Your point is BiS for healer in 4 mans content is not to be a healer but to be a dd.

It's a cool story specially when you forget that not every group running maxed out. I understand it was long ago last time you clicked "Queue" button in random Group Finder. Well when you go there many (if not most) of the time you will meet player for whom additional 220 spell damage will be a good 10-20% addition to their stats. And if you won't heal them they will wipe.

Mmm... I Queue random dungeons via group finder all the time, and believe me, when you get a group where their combined dps on a trash pull is 7k, no amount of PA uptime is going to help that.
Tell that to the 30 minute direfrost boss fight. My hand was hurting so bad in the end and so i just left the group while the boss was at 78% (after 30 minutes of nonstop fighting it, yes).

Your build is certainly something fun to try for someone who is bored and just wants to explore how sets work. But by no means is it BiS or even close to it.

Danksta · October 2017

hedna123b14_ESO wrote: »

If any of the people reading this thread actually put PA on a healer...you're an idiot...

But it's my stam warden healer, that's cool right?

paulsimonps · October 2017

Kneighbors wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This thread is still going?

Kneighbors wrote: »

This single thread shows how bad community in trying out things and relie mostly on copy/paste builds. I see many people here who are 100% sure that if heal is running with less than 35k magicka pool team will start wiping non stop. On the other hand there are players who are farming hardest 4 man content with 3 dd's without even checking if this is profitable first. The amusement of heals buffs groups damage by 30% just shows how underrated this role is, and mostly because players play it in same manner in 4 and 12 man content.

Oh this triggers me. I'm an inventor of outside the box builds, but in order to not waste time of other people, you have to have a certain degree of effectivity. On damage dealers the border is usually around 30k for me, and for support roles, it largely depends on the group what you do. This is however a suboptimal build in any regard, so there's no point in trying it out.

The fact that you say that 400 spell damage is 20% dps increase tells me that you lack understanding of the core functions behind the game.

rustic_potato wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Your point doesn't make any sense.

You say that it's a BiS build for pugging around in dungeons. You say that buffing their damage would result in more DPS than doing DPS yourself with the occasional flash heal. I hope you are aware that most pugs will be dealing around 10k DPS. In your best case scenario, that means 3k more DPS when you buff their damage by 30% (which, let's be honest, is never gonna happen).

So if you would go DPS, you'd need to hit over the 6k dps mark to provide more to the group than your whacky setup.

Now when you put it that way I have to agree Heal must wear SPC+Worm or Mending like most do.
Or there shouldnt be a heal but a 35k dps dd in every group.
Or what is the point of your comment exactly?
Do you even realize that 400 spell/weapon power for a dd with under 2000 will result in 20% dps boost?

You can't honestly think that's true, are you forgetting that damage doesn't come from SD/WD alone? Do you think that major brutality/sorcery boosts your damage by 20%?

For my heal with under 2k spell power a buff of 400 reaults in increase over 20% dps. I can supply parse but too lazy to do it. This is pretty obvious. How much you thought it is?

Depends on the build but a 20% increase in spell power is only about an 8% increase in damage since a lot of your damage as a magicka user comes from your large magicka pool.

I don't think this ia straight line linear. A player with 2k spell power will get a boost of 20% for additional 400, while the player with 4k will get only 8%

OMG please learn the game mechanics before you theorycraft. I respect theorycrafters but when they have no clue what they are talking about it is so hilarious. There are resources out there that you can use before you make a complete fool out of yourself.

This is the point. Maybe too much of your "understanding" of theorycrafting is what prevents you from thinking out of the box and trying different from banal options. I don't have to theorycraft because I have access to all the listed sets here and many many more.

THEN SHOW US THE MATH AND MAKE THE COMPARISONS BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT SET UPS. Stop evading the issue and bring up some proof to your claims. You get upset that people deny your claims but you fail to bring ANY evidence to prove your set ups efficiency.

iam117 · October 2017

THIS THREAD IS PURE GOLD - where can i get PA from anyways?

Koensol · October 2017

Making something different work is no problem, OP. But calling it BiS and not providing any math or valid comparisons, while at the same time spewing misinformation that shows a lack of understanding of game mechanics, is just plain stupid.

IronCrystal · October 2017

iam117 wrote: »

THIS THREAD IS PURE GOLD - where can i get PA from anyways?

Trading (Guild Traders), and IC armor satchel things. (ie random armor piece for IC tokens).

Horowonnoe · October 2017

IronCrystal wrote: »

iam117 wrote: »

THIS THREAD IS PURE GOLD - where can i get PA from anyways?

Trading (Guild Traders), and IC armor satchel things. (ie random armor piece for IC tokens).

@IronCrystal Iam117 was trolling : p

iam117 · October 2017

Horowonnoe wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

iam117 wrote: »

THIS THREAD IS PURE GOLD - where can i get PA from anyways?

Trading (Guild Traders), and IC armor satchel things. (ie random armor piece for IC tokens).

@IronCrystal Iam117 was trolling : p

liv3 would never do that..........

Olupajmibanan · October 2017

I am not sure, isn't this just a sale promotion thread? Maybe OP got too many PA pieces and wants to maximalize his profit.

I'll watch the prices of PA, the more the price changes the more idiots got fooled by OP xD

Horowonnoe · October 2017

iam117 wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

IronCrystal wrote: »

iam117 wrote: »

THIS THREAD IS PURE GOLD - where can i get PA from anyways?

Trading (Guild Traders), and IC armor satchel things. (ie random armor piece for IC tokens).

@IronCrystal Iam117 was trolling : p

liv3 would never do that..........

Of course not. Forgive me.

Horowonnoe · October 2017

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I am not sure if this isn't just a sale promotion thread? I'll watch the prices of PA, the more the price changes the more idiots got fooled by OP xD

Perhaps OP has stacks and stacks of PA and thought maybe this truly would work.

Olupajmibanan · October 2017

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I am not sure if this isn't just a sale promotion thread? I'll watch the prices of PA, the more the price changes the more idiots got fooled by OP xD

Perhaps OP has stacks and stacks of PA and thought maybe this truly would work.

Theoreticaly could work.

But you guys screwed everything! Shame on you!

Horowonnoe · October 2017

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I am not sure if this isn't just a sale promotion thread? I'll watch the prices of PA, the more the price changes the more idiots got fooled by OP xD

Perhaps OP has stacks and stacks of PA and thought maybe this truly would work.

Theoreticaly could work.

But you guys screwed everything! Shame on you!

Now everyone knows this was a ruse to hike prices for PA

Sell yours quick, everyone !!

kylewwefan · October 2017

Powerful Assault is already pricey on PS4. Some people already have found use for it. Maybe not on a healer, but it is at least something to consider.

eso_nya · October 2017

I always wondered how much of the "meta" was/is actually promoting [snip] for sale.

Good ol' times where elegant swords sold for 1m gold, but u could get exactly the same boni on your overload bar w/ 2 kena, 5 elegant body, 3 ia neck and ring + 2x torugs sword.....and than ppl figured out u wouldnt even need swords cause any 1h weapon would do.

[Edited to remove profanity]

PS4_ZeColmeia · October 2017

Ok so I've been giving this a bit of thought

If you're in a stam based group and you're a healer with SPC & PA. you have a potential 424 weapon damage that, with proper overhealing you could keep up all of the time.

Assume everyone, including the tank, is in 5 pc MA for this spec'ed group. Also assume 4k base weapon damage for all involved. As such, 424*12%= 474, 474/4000 ~12% That's pretty much a 12% increase for everyone that is doing damage! Now assume its a magicka group, and their base spell damage is 2800. 424/2800~15% increase!

So the real question is the DPS of your group members. If solo testing you have a 30k trial DPS, you could increase that individual's DPS to 33.6k for stam and 34.5k for magicka. That is with 0 improvement in rotation, gear, or weaving.

The interesting part is that as a person's base weapon/spell damage decreases, the % increases (obviously, its math). But that generally means that in a PUG this has a much more dramatic affect than in a group with already high DPS and base numbers.

So the real question in this setup are:

Does your loss of magicka that you have to sacrifice to make casting skills like vigor or caltrops more realistic to cast (I suppose you could do some group DPS with proxy det but that drains your ability to heal) significantly affect the hp healed?
How much does 12-30% increase in DPS, depending on the group, speed up killing which would reduce the requirements to heal?
Does the balance of cost reduction from LA with magicka recovery and increased stamina (from various sources) allow you to keep up with heals by layering 2 HOTs (Vigor & Mutagen), Healing Springs, and then either siphon or ward let you effectively overheal for SPC and keep vigor/caltrop/proxy det/warhorn every 15 seconds?
Do you have to have a master's resto staff and stand in the healing springs to effectively keep vigor or caltrops running every 15s?

I think this is viable, but the above questions will answer if this a great way to improve a pug as a healer vs being a trial/PvP healer set.

Destruent · October 2017

You completely forgot the magicka/stamina-pool in your calculation...

Jamini · October 2017

Just a few notes, from someone who has made an off-build for a stamDPS for healing on a Warden.

1. SPC and PA both benefit from brutality and sorcery. When calculating damage from them, make sure you include those buffs if you are looking at buffed WD/SD values.
2. PA is weaker than SPC, but for a single healer it does have slightly higher uptime. SPC still comes out ahead overall.
3. Stamina heals are sufficient to heal through nMoL, vCoAII, and vRoM (Ive not had success on HMvRoM. I've not had an opportunity to try vCoS or the horns of the reach dungeons on vet yet).
4. For stamina-heavy groups, Hircine's veneer is absolutely excellent. In my humble opinion, it out-performs worm for magicka for group sustain.
5. Stamina healing (with DW) gains the benefit of running 5-5-2. Chokethorn, Sentinel of Rhegumez, and Troll King are highly underrated due to most magicka healers preferring SPC/Mending or SPC/Worm.
6. Orbs suck to synergize, and you get less of them. I actually prefer SPC on my stamina healer (rings+x2 daggers) because that actually gives me enough magicka to cast more than two healing orb in a row before going dry.
7. Warden Stamina healers have a number of supporting magicka skills. Tristat food is not a bad choice on them if your health remains high enough.
8. The low cost of Enchanted Forest makes it more appealing to me than healing thicket. Pre-casting it on healthy groups ensures very high ulti uptime.
9. I have not gotten to test a War Machine build yet, as I do not have a full set.
10. Endless Hail with an infused shock enchantment has surprisingly good off-balance uptime. It still doesn't compete with a charged lit staff.
11. 90%+ toughness is very nice. I can normally count on my HP being notably higher than my baseline stats while in-combat.
12. nSO sucks to heal. This is a universal constant. (Please stop spreading your AIDs. Please! Please? PLEASE!!!)
13. Do not underestimate permafrost for defensive ults. It's comparable to nova and has nice CC.
14. Stamina healers must be in the fray, and often you will need to communicate to certain... less wise players that they need to stack on you.
15. Nature's Grasp is underrated, and you can abuse it in certain fights (vWGT adjudicator) to skip some mechanics.
16. Frozen gate is garbage.
17. I've found damage to be roughly comparable with my magicka templar. Endless Hail matches Wall of Lightning and certain combos with a bow can be weaved very neatly into a stam healer's rotation. Shalks is a solid AoE as well.
18. The cone on soothing spores is very tight, but satisfying to land.
19. Lifesteal is significantly more powerful than many assume.
20. Your mobility is significantly better than a templar's. Especially with Bird of Prey.
21. Lack of combat prayer unless you slot a resto staff.

I'll not claim that a stamina healer is better than a templar, but they are sure as hell fun to play, engaging, and viable for the bulk of the game.

Strong Set Choices

Hircine's Veneer - Now that it's fixed, it's stamina's version of Worm
Powerful Assault - The topic of this thread. Good uptime, low targets. I do wish it would be a small buff. Not difficult to buy or attain. Can be paired with SPC or Mending as you can wear the body pieces.
SPC - Honestly, still BIS even for a stam healer. You need mag for orbs, and the damage is pretty much unmatched. Must be jewlery+1h
Mending - Same as SPC, but I wouldn't pair them.
Agility - When all else fails, you have robust jewlery to fall back on
Chokethorn/Bogdan - Nice burst heals, if hard to control.
Troll King - A constant boost to your healing, and a notable increase to your healing on non-vamires.
Rhegumez - A moderate, consistant heal and stamina supply. Probably BIS for stamDen healers helms.
x2 Leki (or any other 2-pc that gives WD) - Good to pair with agility if you have nothing else.

eso_nya · October 2017

PS4_ZeColmeia wrote: »

Assume everyone, including the tank, is in 5 pc MA for this spec'ed group. Also assume 4k base weapon damage for all involved. As such, 424*12%= 474, 474/4000 ~12% That's pretty much a 12% increase for everyone that is doing damage! Now assume its a magicka group, and their base spell damage is 2800. 424/2800~15% increase!

Over the thumb skills that do dmg scale with factor 0.5 by weapon- or spell dmg, thus increasing wd by 12% increases dmg done by 6%. Additionally, the the healer _should_ be running spc anyways.
So the increase from PA is more like (pa * 100 / (4k wd + spc)) * 0.5 -> (164 * 100 /(4000+ 258)) * 0,5 -> 1,92% dmg increase. Now that would be to expect when both have 100% uptime. (SPC alone: 258 * 100 / 4000 * 0,5 -> 3,22%.)

For the healer itself, most heals im aware of scale with 0.4 by spelldmg and 0.6 with max magicka (looking at u lightspeaker :P), its not much, but u kinda doublegimp yourself running a med set to improve your sd for the sake of vigor.

Looking at ops 32k mag and 32% spell crit, my _bosmer_ magplar in spc/worm comes w/ 39k mag and 58% spellcrit. Assuming no points in elfborn, thats still 13% higher heels from the crit alone (i have 37 points in elfporn). 7k mag ontop of 32k -> +21,875% -> times 0.6 -> 13,12% increased heals (better than 5pc sanctuary). Now those two even stack multiplicative, means base heals r 13,12% higher and those heals r than multiplicated with the crit modifier, which happens 26% more often. Now bring in meta-race the and difference becomes even worse.
At low levels of healing done, proccing spc might become a problem.

Kneighbors · October 2017

paulsimonps wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

This thread is still going?

Kneighbors wrote: »

This single thread shows how bad community in trying out things and relie mostly on copy/paste builds. I see many people here who are 100% sure that if heal is running with less than 35k magicka pool team will start wiping non stop. On the other hand there are players who are farming hardest 4 man content with 3 dd's without even checking if this is profitable first. The amusement of heals buffs groups damage by 30% just shows how underrated this role is, and mostly because players play it in same manner in 4 and 12 man content.

Oh this triggers me. I'm an inventor of outside the box builds, but in order to not waste time of other people, you have to have a certain degree of effectivity. On damage dealers the border is usually around 30k for me, and for support roles, it largely depends on the group what you do. This is however a suboptimal build in any regard, so there's no point in trying it out.

The fact that you say that 400 spell damage is 20% dps increase tells me that you lack understanding of the core functions behind the game.

rustic_potato wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Danksta wrote: »

Kneighbors wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

Your point doesn't make any sense.

You say that it's a BiS build for pugging around in dungeons. You say that buffing their damage would result in more DPS than doing DPS yourself with the occasional flash heal. I hope you are aware that most pugs will be dealing around 10k DPS. In your best case scenario, that means 3k more DPS when you buff their damage by 30% (which, let's be honest, is never gonna happen).

So if you would go DPS, you'd need to hit over the 6k dps mark to provide more to the group than your whacky setup.

Now when you put it that way I have to agree Heal must wear SPC+Worm or Mending like most do.
Or there shouldnt be a heal but a 35k dps dd in every group.
Or what is the point of your comment exactly?
Do you even realize that 400 spell/weapon power for a dd with under 2000 will result in 20% dps boost?

You can't honestly think that's true, are you forgetting that damage doesn't come from SD/WD alone? Do you think that major brutality/sorcery boosts your damage by 20%?

For my heal with under 2k spell power a buff of 400 reaults in increase over 20% dps. I can supply parse but too lazy to do it. This is pretty obvious. How much you thought it is?

Depends on the build but a 20% increase in spell power is only about an 8% increase in damage since a lot of your damage as a magicka user comes from your large magicka pool.

I don't think this ia straight line linear. A player with 2k spell power will get a boost of 20% for additional 400, while the player with 4k will get only 8%

OMG please learn the game mechanics before you theorycraft. I respect theorycrafters but when they have no clue what they are talking about it is so hilarious. There are resources out there that you can use before you make a complete fool out of yourself.

This is the point. Maybe too much of your "understanding" of theorycrafting is what prevents you from thinking out of the box and trying different from banal options. I don't have to theorycraft because I have access to all the listed sets here and many many more.

THEN SHOW US THE MATH AND MAKE THE COMPARISONS BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT SET UPS. Stop evading the issue and bring up some proof to your claims. You get upset that people deny your claims but you fail to bring ANY evidence to prove your set ups efficiency.

I'm not getting upset or anything. People make jokes and their primary points are:

1) 200-220 spell power/weapon damage isn't serious enough to drop down regular set up of SPC+Worm/Mending.
What can I tell here? Show them that it actually improves dps of decent DD by few percents? They will tell its not important, while for me even if it's only 1% group dps gain I will switch to it, simply because I already have tons of sets and can wear anything and swap different sets for various content. They want to run same set up for any content, I won't be able to change their mind with 100 of parses. They will always find a negative side.

2) Heal with under 35k magicka pool is a bad heal. Well I passed all the content without even giving this factor attention on my heal. If you ask me, the healing is really strong is this game and game isn't punishing enough for running without heal. Making some standarts about magicka pool in 4 mans content for a heal droppes me into ROTFL state.

3) Disrespect to vigor with small stamina pool, while 1k per second to every player seems strong to me. Also I found that Vigor is the BEST activator of SPC long ago. For that reason there are significantly higher uptimes and better control over when to activate the buff.

4) Pulling me into 12 man content again and again, while I specified in the topic that I'm only talking about limited to small groups content. I even wrote that I don't recommend wearing PA in 12 man trials but somehow I still see this subject again and again here.

5) Removal of Heal role from dungeons. Well I disagree with this while only really really top groups can justify removing Heal for improving groups performance.