Fake Tank = Kick - Chat Screenshots

Girl_Number8

Nogawd wrote: »

Wow, so many glass canons out there afraid of contact. Need a white knight to save them.

Yes, they are dreamy I luv my tankys.<3

VaranisArano

Flameheart wrote: »

I agree and I may add another important point besides taunting, holding aggro, not dying -> holding the boss in one place without moving it around like a headless chicken, so DDs don't have to reapply ground Dots every 2 seconds. You know there was someting like a sustain nerf in Morrowind.

I may not leave the group or start a kick vote if the above is in place, but I am still not amused if - besides such a "workaround tank" which won't be able to pile up adds for nice and fast AoE dps - there will be no warhorns and no healer without any buff support.

Just to clarify, my usual spiel about tanking goes something like this:

The basic job of a tank is to hold boss aggro, taunt, and don't die.

A good tank holds boss aggro, taunts, doesn't die, holds the boss more or less still, debuffs the boss, buffs the group, and provides crowd control.

I use this because i think it illustrates the gap between a basic but successful tank and a good tank. Someone who meets the basic job description is a tank, but they have a long way to go before they are a good tank.


Now, I'm fairly flexible with how that good tank does all of those things. As a tank, I've got my own style that I know works because I've already completed the dungeons I run. So I tend to to be too prescriptive with the "Thou shalt run Warhorns!" or "Chains are king!" because not all tanks are dragonknights and not all tanks need to play exactly in the same way. I don't care how a good tank does it, or if they do it perfectly, as long as they do it. If you want specific strategies from the tank, I suggest you run with tanks you know or who are familiar with how you run. (For example, I don't run Warhorn because I'm not an ulti-gen tank and the groups I regularly run with get more utility out of my other ultimates.)

newtinmpls

Alpheu5 wrote: »

On the other hand, some vet dungeons really don't require a tank to complete assuming the group members are semi-competent. Fungal Grotto II is one such dungeon.

Funny you should mention that.

I usually game with three buddies; and the four of us are not BiS min-max, but we aren't terrible either.

Last night our 4th was feeling ill and went to bed. The three of us figured we'd work on leveling some of our lowbie character and decided to do a random normal. As it happened we had 2 DPS (sorta - lowbies) and a healer.

We figured we might have a wait, so we were chatting on Skype and I said, let's try Fungal Grotto, 'cause with three halfway decent players, maybe we can do it.

Auto-random-non-vet kicks in and throws us into - you guessed it - Fungal Grotto 2.

With some high level ... not very friendly DPS as "tank".

We notice right away he is running ahead. I don't mean just starting fights early, I mean blowing through most mobs, and cruising on high speed through the dungeon. We've been burned by this before - had a similar DPSdork finish the entire dungeon on us and then he was the only one that got the credit for the Random.

DPSdork doesn't want to talk to us, just keeps cruising. So we start a vote to kick. NOooww he wants to talk. All this and that about how "I'm carrying you" (no. that's not what is happening).

We kicked. Got a real tank. Actually did the dungeon.

Moral: It's not just the vet folks who are looking for a "real tank"

zaria

Nogawd wrote: »

Wow, so many glass canons out there afraid of contact. Need a white knight to save them.

More bored of pump healing the guy running around getting chased by the boss and don't know how to block.
Usually don't know how to do damage either.

Cherryblossom

If you weren't completing the content then he was bad so kick.
but others comments stand that for many you don't really need a Tank or a healer.

CGPsaint

We rolled vet Darkshade Caverns II yesterday and got paired up with a level 23 who queued for all 3 roles. He was grouped in as the tank. He wasn't interested in a communicating, which negated any thought of trying to work with him to get through the dungeon. Dude got booted after the first boss. 90% of my play-time is with a buddy, which is super convenient for running dungeons. Being that we value our play-time, we refuse to spend it with idiots. Being new is one thing, and we will gladly work with those players to make it a positive experience, however if someone queues for a role that they can't fill (Healer/Tank) in a dungeon where one or both are necessary, then they will get the old boot. For those of you who say that some dungeons do not require a tank, you are absolutely correct. That being said, it will always be easier and quicker to clear a dungeon, when you are not chasing every enemy around the area because the "tank" is kiting, or more likely running for his/her life.

rotaugen454

I did Fungal Grotto II last night on NORMAL with two horrible DPS and a bad healer. DPS did not use AOE very often, just heavy attacked a lot. Healer would occasionally throw a heal but mostly zapped with staff. If I didn't have a good tank in the mix, they would never have finished. They were willing to listen when I tried to explain basics, so I just ground it out with them. Had I been yet another fake tank, it would have been a fail. Regardless of whether it can or cannot be done without a real tank, its the lying and skipping ahead of the line that irritates the most. If I am running healer or DPS and we get a fake tank, I push to boot and if it doesn't go through, I leave. No tolerance for cheating the system.

aeowulf

Interesting thread - I was moaning to RL mate about this about 6 months ago actually. According to some above thoughts on tanks, certain classes cannot be good tanks. For instance, NB have no CC to speak of and their class based group utility is non-existent. I've grouped with plenty that are good and have played them extensively myself.

I have a dislike for fake tanks that cannot perform. I have no beef with someone turning up with medium or light armour and tanking the dungeon IF they can tank.

Re the lightning staff, you could use it for blockade & with torugs it would keep a crusher uptime of 100% - THAT'S good group utility that a NB could provide, as example. Just because one person doesn't know in/outs of every set in the game, or how every weapon works doesn't means someone else hasn't figured out a crazy good new way of using it. This guy might know this if he had capped cp. That's fine. But a lvl 23 fake tank would not, and would not have the gear or skill to back it up.

So I often click the tank role and usually start the dungeons with dps gear on. Come the boss time, if it's a tough boss i'll swap to the heavy in my bags, if needed. As imperial, I can hit 30k health with all stats in stamina/magicka. So if i end up in your group, please don't kick me :P at least not until i've proven myself to you or not. My CC is reducing their hp they don't move round much when dead! I would also NEVER attempt a vet dungeon without being tank spec'd throughout.

Really comes down to the individual and if he can tank, or not.

Best run I ever had was no healer - we had a fake one of them. I tanked and the 3 sorcs just breezed through everything.

ArchMikem

KingMagaw wrote: »

Cheating the queue system had me laugh.


While i do agree that having a proper tank makes Dungeons somewhat easier it is hardly necessary. vDSA needs a solid tank and the better he plays the better you all play, but for dungeons it is a cake walk doing with any class/role, most have been solo'ed.

This gross generalization needs to stop. Most have been soloed by players wearing Meta gear on Meta classes. You people think that *** comes standard for all players? Dungeons are not cake walks if youre not an easy mode build.

Defilted

If you are DPS and you queue as a healer or a tank you are being disingenuous. A healer or a tank would never queue for a DPS role on purpose. They have roles for a reason.

Most people that use the activity finder system are not long time veteran players that can handle 4 man DPSING any dungeon. Most of the time you have 2 or more very weak players that are still learning the game and it makes it that much harder when DPS queues as a tank or healer roll and does not fill that roll inside the dungeon. On top of that and I have witnessed this myself several times that player will normally start yelling at the DPS if they die when they never would have if they would have just been taunting or healing to begin with.

Activity finder is not a skill matching system. It just queues the next person in line.

I agree with the OP that people queuing for the wrong rolls is an issue.

M1SH3LL3

This rhetoric that tanks and healers are not needed in vet dungeons comes from people taking vMA builds into dungeons.

DPS should be squishy. They should not be slotting healing abilities, they should slot damage abilities. Healers will heal. Tanks will take damage whilst DPS cause damage.

If 'dps' can survive without a healer and a tank they need to be aware that their damage isn't anywhere near as high as it could be.

If we all had tank/dps/healer builds imagine how boring this game would be. Pick a role and be the best at it you can be.

Bevik

What about just decrease the penalty time to 5 mins if you are leaving the group but remain or increase it to 20 mins if you are being kicked. 15-20 mins wait because you were kicked just because you tried to avoid the right role for is a lot. But being punished the same way, same time if someone in your party is not capable of filling a role is just non-sense.

ookami007

Whether it can or can't be done, it's misrepresentation and the person should be kicked immediately, if not sooner.

Happens all the time in normals... thanks queue and don't have a single taunt. I know... I have 4 tank (or is it 5 now?) toons and I know what to look for.

CAN certain vet dungeons be done without a tank, sure... but with HM, who really wants to spend half their time rezzing the dps after being one shotted by the boss because the "tank" doesn't know what a taunt is.

Horowonnoe

Bevik wrote: »

What about just decrease the penalty time to 5 mins if you are leaving the group but remain or increase it to 20 mins if you are being kicked. 15-20 mins wait because you were kicked just because you tried to avoid the right role for is a lot. But being punished the same way, same time if someone in your party is not capable of filling a role is just non-sense.

This is a terrible idea. Remember that people who are being kicked are not always players who Q as the wrong role. Often kicks happen because of mean players who kick low levels, or kick to have their friend join. Or whatever else dumb reason. This would punish low level people and players who are learning.

Bevik

Horowonnoe wrote: »

Bevik wrote: »

What about just decrease the penalty time to 5 mins if you are leaving the group but remain or increase it to 20 mins if you are being kicked. 15-20 mins wait because you were kicked just because you tried to avoid the right role for is a lot. But being punished the same way, same time if someone in your party is not capable of filling a role is just non-sense.

This is a terrible idea. Remember that people who are being kicked are not always players who Q as the wrong role. Often kicks happen because of mean players who kick low levels, or kick to have their friend join. Or whatever else dumb reason. This would punish low level people and players who are learning.

Most of the time people are being kicked because they can't perform, fake tanks, fake healers, not enough DPS, afking etc. What are you saying is the smaller part. Happens yes but which one is more often? Since we are going to have new level restriction for harder dungeons noone will kick low levels. Easier dungeons on normal can be done with 4 level 10 players. If someone is about to kick a low level and I know we can do that dungeon I always press NO, I mostly press NO anyway unless the above reasons apply.

Alexandrious

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

Wow, so many glass canons out there afraid of contact. Need a white knight to save them.

Yes, they are dreamy I luv my tankys.<3

Good to know "babe"

Alexandrious

zaria wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

Wow, so many glass canons out there afraid of contact. Need a white knight to save them.

More bored of pump healing the guy running around getting chased by the boss and don't know how to block.
Usually don't know how to do damage either.

Loooong ago in the distant land of Norrath, on the planes of power, this monk fake tank wanted to tank over his paladin for a judge event......cant remember much on it....was 17 years ago. The silly lizard monk then, at his 80 percent movement speed increase, ran around the walls of the room rapidly screaming help, when he could have feigned death, the lizard was so fast and so frantic, I had trouble getting aggro on the three mobs due to laughing my head off at the sight of it all.....to this day, still vivid in my mind.

Kek

newtinmpls

templesus wrote: »

I que as tank and healer 24/7 on my dps. Never been kicked and we always finished dungeon.
L2P issue

IF you can do any of the jobs you get... THEN no problem.

Oh... and not just 'can' but 'actually do'

I suspect, from your good run, that is the case.

ookami007

Bottom line is... if you are not a tank and you queue for a tank role, you DESERVE to be booted. End of story.

You are misrepresenting who and what you are. You are a fraud, a trickster, a con artist, scammer, grifter... whatever name you want to use.

Kick them early and kick them often.

Samadhi

Alexandrious wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

Wow, so many glass canons out there afraid of contact. Need a white knight to save them.

Yes, they are dreamy I luv my tankys.<3

Good to know "babe"

Alexandrious

Samadhi wrote: »

Alexandrious wrote: »

Girl_Number8 wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

Wow, so many glass canons out there afraid of contact. Need a white knight to save them.

Yes, they are dreamy I luv my tankys.<3

Good to know "babe"

Kek

zaria

Alexandrious wrote: »

zaria wrote: »

Nogawd wrote: »

Wow, so many glass canons out there afraid of contact. Need a white knight to save them.

More bored of pump healing the guy running around getting chased by the boss and don't know how to block.
Usually don't know how to do damage either.

Loooong ago in the distant land of Norrath, on the planes of power, this monk fake tank wanted to tank over his paladin for a judge event......cant remember much on it....was 17 years ago. The silly lizard monk then, at his 80 percent movement speed increase, ran around the walls of the room rapidly screaming help, when he could have feigned death, the lizard was so fast and so frantic, I had trouble getting aggro on the three mobs due to laughing my head off at the sight of it all.....to this day, still vivid in my mind.

Kek

Let us all remember that Leroy Jenkins is the most famous MMO player of all time
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hooKVstzbz0
Lets all try to live up to his image.

Female Khajiit undressing and for tanking the twins in vMoL by seducing them is one idea

Bbsample197

its quite funny that some people are defending on queueing on three roles is a good thing, we have roles for a reason, you want to do it all? then solo it, not that big of a deal, plus its way easier soloing a dgn than carrying other 3 people

Qbiken

ookami007 wrote: »

Bottom line is... if you are not a tank and you queue for a tank role, you DESERVE to be booted. End of story.

You are misrepresenting who and what you are. You are a fraud, a trickster, a con artist, scammer, grifter... whatever name you want to use.

Kick them early and kick them often.

You´re not obliged to anything so stop with this "deserve" nonsense.....It´s a game.....And ESO isn´t like all other MMO´s out there where heavy armor means tank and light armor means mage etc....Unless you do veteran trials it will never matter what roles you pick in a dungeon. A

I don´t care if people que for multiple roles, the dungeon finder is *** up and doesn´t work 90% of the time, no wonder people que with multiple roles.If the dungeonfinder actually worked properly people wouldn´t "cheat" the que, blame ZOS for not fixing their stuff instead of taking out your "obliged" rage on someone that just want to do a random dungeon.

If we finish the dungeon without too much trouble, it doesn´t matter what roles people had when they qued. If I see someone not understanding mechanics and stuff I talk to them first, communicating etc, trying to help them/the group so we can finish it. If it after that doesn´t work, then that´s another thing, but going all ragemode like OP and several other people for not getting a "real" tank/heal or DPS in a dungeon finder (because you somehow think you deserve it) is plain nonsense....

I´m so glad OP is on console and not pc......the toxicity is too damn strong....

Kicking someone for the reasons mentioned in this thread is the same (if not worse) than kicking someone for being low CP = there´s no reason to unless you actually see them in action.

sudaki_eso

Bbsample197 wrote: »

its quite funny that some people are defending on queueing on three roles is a good thing, we have roles for a reason, you want to do it all? then solo it, not that big of a deal, plus its way easier soloing a dgn than carrying other 3 people

Guess we found the guys queueing as fake tanks and healers

bhagwad

Qbiken wrote: »

ookami007 wrote: »

Bottom line is... if you are not a tank and you queue for a tank role, you DESERVE to be booted. End of story.

You are misrepresenting who and what you are. You are a fraud, a trickster, a con artist, scammer, grifter... whatever name you want to use.

Kick them early and kick them often.

You´re not obliged to anything so stop with this "deserve" nonsense.....It´s a game.....And ESO isn´t like all other MMO´s out there where heavy armor means tank and light armor means mage etc....Unless you do veteran trials it will never matter what roles you pick in a dungeon. A

I don´t care if people que for multiple roles, the dungeon finder is *** up and doesn´t work 90% of the time, no wonder people que with multiple roles.If the dungeonfinder actually worked properly people wouldn´t "cheat" the que, blame ZOS for not fixing their stuff instead of taking out your "obliged" rage on someone that just want to do a random dungeon.

If we finish the dungeon without too much trouble, it doesn´t matter what roles people had when they qued. If I see someone not understanding mechanics and stuff I talk to them first, communicating etc, trying to help them/the group so we can finish it. If it after that doesn´t work, then that´s another thing, but going all ragemode like OP and several other people for not getting a "real" tank/heal or DPS in a dungeon finder (because you somehow think you deserve it) is plain nonsense....

I´m so glad OP is on console and not pc......the toxicity is too damn strong....

Kicking someone for the reasons mentioned in this thread is the same (if not worse) than kicking someone for being low CP = there´s no reason to unless you actually see them in action.

We think we "deserve" to get a real tank, because the person using the dungeon finder explicitly queued as one. Your statement can be reworded to "If a person says they will be a tank, and then doesn't even TRY to tank, no one should mind". Especially when by saying that, they are taking the spot of..you know...a TANK!

The rest of us expect a tank in our dungeons, because by clicking on the "tank" role, the person queuing is saying "Yes, I will perform the role of a tank".

And second, the fake tank is just trying to get shorter queues. Like in real life, cheaters get the boot, you know where. Next time you're waiting in line of cars, tell me how you feel about some guy driving his car around the shoulder and getting in front ahead of you.

But hey! Maybe you're ok with that?

VaranisArano

aeowulf wrote: »

Interesting thread - I was moaning to RL mate about this about 6 months ago actually. According to some above thoughts on tanks, certain classes cannot be good tanks. For instance, NB have no CC to speak of and their class based group utility is non-existent. I've grouped with plenty that are good and have played them extensively myself.

And this is why I don't care how the tank does their job, only that they do it. All classes are capable of being good tanks. Sure, DKs got the grab bag of obvious tank skills, but other classes can do crown control, debuff the boss, and buff the group in their own ways. (Heck, my stam sorc DPS/Tank uses caltrops for her crowd control and uses Vigor for off-heals, so I'm the last person who can be picky about skills needed for a good tank.)

I've also run with a variety of tanks in normal dungeons and while each has had their own method of tanking, that just goes to show that there's a lot of ways to be a tank.

raj72616a

it's a vicious cycle.
tank and dps slot heal skills coz they met bad healer.
healer and tank come in dps gear coz they met dd who did like 5k dps in vet dungeon.
dps and healer are ready to kite the boss coz they met squishy/non-functional tank.

the more you PUG, the more disillusioned you are with dungeon roles.

Strider__Roshin

So shall we kick anyone that doesn't perform 25k+ DPS? Any less and it's less than adequate.

We can't have any fake DPS now.

Jeremy

Bbsample197 wrote: »

its quite funny that some people are defending on queueing on three roles is a good thing, we have roles for a reason, you want to do it all? then solo it, not that big of a deal, plus its way easier soloing a dgn than carrying other 3 people

No one joins a dungeon assigned 3 roles to do it all. They are given a specific role at the offset whether they queued as multiple roles or not. So I believe it's important to draw a distinction between those who queue as multiple roles and then those who queue for a role they have no intention of playing.