Subterranean Assault Overperforming

Waffennacht

Valencer wrote: »

Subterranean Assault hits about as hard as a Dawnbreaker's initial hit. It's also unblockable, undodgeable, applies major fracture and is AoE in addition to being delayed and thus really easy to line up with the rest of your burst.

It's hard not to call it overperforming

You can block it, why does everyone think Warden abilities go through block?

Edit: it acts just like leap

Valencer

You cant block it. You can block birds, but not shalks. Ground AoEs arent blockable by design since a really early version of the game.

And just to make sure, I just tested this in-game with a friend. Same damage with and without the target blocking. Not that I havent been experiencing this while playing my stam warden in Cyrodiil...

artal

[quote="Thogard;c-4551530"
The counter to bomb blades is to kill the damn bomb blade. No so easy to kill a warden.

Plus bomb blades have to make significant gear and skill sacrifices to get their builds. Wardens don’t.[/quote]
Cmon man you just twist all argument to fit your statements. On one side you say you are talking about only 10% good wardens and now you will kill bomblade easy to counter them. Sorry to say but they will kill you first so no counter.

Second you avoid commenting on stamblade, heavy attack, SA incap is easy just as that warden combo you complain about and can deal just as much dmg.

Wardens are not easy to kill you say, well thats true but next patch healing ulti is getting nerfed so lets wait and see how that will play out first.

And last thing why o why are you not complaining about bird which is truly broken skill.

Now dont get me wrong I do think shalk is very strong but lets first fix other stuff that really need fixing and than take look if that needs any tweaking.

Just to point once again that you are complaining about warden ability to GANK

artal

Valencer wrote: »

Subterranean Assault hits about as hard as a Dawnbreaker's initial hit. It's also unblockable, undodgeable, applies major fracture and is AoE in addition to being delayed and thus really easy to line up with the rest of your burst.

It's hard not to call it overperforming

Just to fix it for you its blockable, its telegraphed, not hard to avoid and generally very few wardens making much trouble with it.
But being delayed and easy to line up burst is true and what bugs most people.

Valencer

It's not blockable. Can you guys please get your facts straight?

Not that block is even a good counter. Once again just forces people into tanky block builds if it even was blockable

Autumnhart

It's not overperforming, it just needs more of a visual cue than, "There's a warden facing me." I'll settle for an audio cue that happens before I'm already shalked.

artal

Valencer wrote: »

It's not blockable. Can you guys please get your facts straight?

Not that block is even a good counter. Once again just forces people into tanky block builds if it even was blockable

yes you are right its not blockable, my mistake.

Still i think that birds are what needs to be looked at first and healing ult (which it will be tweaked)

ToRelax

Autumnhart wrote: »

It's not overperforming, it just needs more of a visual cue than, "There's a warden facing me." I'll settle for an audio cue that happens before I'm already shalked.

Yeah, something similar to detonation or meteor where you can hear when it's going to go off would go a long way. Curse and Backlash could use that, too.

Masel

paulsimonps wrote: »

I love it, everyone says Wardens are trash but yet you can find a "NERF X" thread for almost all of their abilities. But no, remember, the Wardens are trash.

You can pretty much find a nerf thread for everything that can kill people. Seriously, if you nerf wardens more than they are atm then you might as well remove them entirely. Subterranean assault is literally the only thing a stamina warden has in PvE that makes them somewhat useful.

Jade1986

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol. There are plenty of sets that add a ton of damage, sets that raise your weapon damage by 300 + when you roll, there are sets like the automaton that add nearly 400 weapon damage to all physical attacks, SnB is the weakest weapon set you can choose. All other weapons have a higher damage output potential.

If you have the option to permablock all other bonuses should be severely limited imo. Even that cute little 5% weapon damage. And since I've been talking about Heavy Armor and S&B Wrath fits in there too. If you don't slot S&B you are at a disadvantage.

Ok, seriously, I cant even take you seriously anymore. SnB trades a ton of damage for survivability. That 5% is nothing in comparison to what every other weapon line gets. It is that low BECAUSE we have more survivability, would you be ok with it being raised to 20% if we lost our survivability? Probably not. You can't neuter a weapon line because it is inconvenient to you without thinking of the whole picture. And if you are blocking, you are not regenerating stamina at a reasonable rate, and you are also not doing damage. This mindset is the same thing along the lines of people that support Miats add on. The playstyle is inconvenient to you, and it hampers your playstyle, so it should be made irrelevant. This is strictly a l2p issue.

Joy_Division

It's a strong combo, but if 90% of the game's wardens are potatoes and can't pull it off, then I'm ok with that as it means it requires some actual skill to get results rather than just spamming something or using a destro ult say

Sanctum74

Autumnhart wrote: »

It's not overperforming, it just needs more of a visual cue than, "There's a warden facing me." I'll settle for an audio cue that happens before I'm already shalked.

Ummm how about the big glowing blue circle under the wardens feet.

That's only if you missed the very obvious and telegraphed dance animation to use the skill.

Not sure how you could ask for anymore of a cue than that.

Lexxypwns

Waffennacht wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

Subterranean Assault hits about as hard as a Dawnbreaker's initial hit. It's also unblockable, undodgeable, applies major fracture and is AoE in addition to being delayed and thus really easy to line up with the rest of your burst.

It's hard not to call it overperforming

You can block it, why does everyone think Warden abilities go through block?

Edit: it acts just like leap

It acts like all ground based aoe attacks and cannot be blocked. It also can't be dodge rolled in the traditional sense, you have to time your roll to take you outside of the aoe before the damage goes off.

Speed_Kills

I think the damage component of it is fine. I believe the timer on it could be increased a bit to prevent burst windows every 3s.

ak_pvp

Make it have to have a target to use. Eliminates the whole Los running into a burst.

gammelscroll

Thogard wrote: »

It's getting ridiculous. We're seeing more and more of it.

Too many people running one-round KO stam warden builds. And they all run the same thing... stampede, dawnbreaker, beetles, and reverse slice.

Subterranean assault needs to be a 1s channel like dark flare currently is. Giving that much burst to an ability that doesn't do its damage on the global cooldown (and stun and fracture) is just a bad idea. But to give it to the class with the best pvp healing and the best pvp sustain is absurd.

Ive been posting here for over a year.. never made a QQ post.

And for those who say "Oh its telegraphed, learn to play!" yeah, the bad wardens do that. I'm talking about the good ones that activate beetles and pop an immov pot out of range, then stampede on top of you right before beetles triggers. unless youre running javelin on templar there is 0 counterplay other than dodgerolling the stampede...

Oh yeah and they have major heroism through shimmering shield, so they can do this about every 15s...

It blows my mind that this ability hasn't been nerfed yet. And thats not even factoring in the whole "ignore the Z axis" element of it. Always fun to be playing BGs in arcane university and get dropped by a beetle being cast by someone two floors above you.

Here's a pic.... but lets not pretend you don't know exactly what im talking about. Just watch kodi's stream for 10min.

its a combo that kills most players in about 1.1s (not counting the stampede travel time). Thats ridiculous.

Everyone who doesn't already have one is making a stam warden on the 2x XP event next week.



EDIT: and in case you cant tell, that is in no CP battlegrounds. Its even worse in CP.

agree and bump

Waffennacht

Isn't Dawn Breaker blockable?

Sanctum74

ak_pvp wrote: »

Make it have to have a target to use. Eliminates the whole Los running into a burst.

It's already a delayed and highly telegraphed skill, now you want us to have to aim it twice for each use?

Or are you suggesting we have to target a player to use it and then it automatically hits them if they are within range 3 seconds later with no further aiming needed?

Being a conal aoe skill with a delay it already requires some skill to use effectively and expecting wardens to aim twice would render the skill useless. If it only had to be aimed on activation it would just make the skill stronger and there would still be calls for nerfs.

Autumnhart

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Autumnhart wrote: »

It's not overperforming, it just needs more of a visual cue than, "There's a warden facing me." I'll settle for an audio cue that happens before I'm already shalked.

Ummm how about the big glowing blue circle under the wardens feet.

That's only if you missed the very obvious and telegraphed dance animation to use the skill.

Not sure how you could ask for anymore of a cue than that.

Been in Cyrodiil lately? The warden may see himself do all of that. I see nothing but a warden moving toward me. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

At this point I know that means get the hell out of that spot, but I am definitely NOT getting a visual cue of any kind other than the presence of a warden.

Waffennacht

Autumnhart wrote: »

Sanctum74 wrote: »

Autumnhart wrote: »

It's not overperforming, it just needs more of a visual cue than, "There's a warden facing me." I'll settle for an audio cue that happens before I'm already shalked.

Ummm how about the big glowing blue circle under the wardens feet.

That's only if you missed the very obvious and telegraphed dance animation to use the skill.

Not sure how you could ask for anymore of a cue than that.

Been in Cyrodiil lately? The warden may see himself do all of that. I see nothing but a warden moving toward me. Nothing. Nada. Zip.

At this point I know that means get the hell out of that spot, but I am definitely NOT getting a visual cue of any kind other than the presence of a warden.

I've noticed this too.

In PvP a LOT disappears

My Netch visual disappears, my ring (Fissure) disappears, my Artic Blast disappears.

This isn't a warden thing alone, in Cyrodiil a lot of visuals have disappeared

Waffennacht

Also, is DboS blockable or not? And if so, why? If sub Assault is unblockable, so should DboS

WreckfulAbandon

laced wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol.

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol. There are plenty of sets that add a ton of damage, sets that raise your weapon damage by 300 + when you roll, there are sets like the automaton that add nearly 400 weapon damage to all physical attacks, SnB is the weakest weapon set you can choose. All other weapons have a higher damage output potential.

If you have the option to permablock all other bonuses should be severely limited imo. Even that cute little 5% weapon damage. And since I've been talking about Heavy Armor and S&B Wrath fits in there too. If you don't slot S&B you are at a disadvantage.

Ok, seriously, I cant even take you seriously anymore. SnB trades a ton of damage for survivability. That 5% is nothing in comparison to what every other weapon line gets. It is that low BECAUSE we have more survivability, would you be ok with it being raised to 20% if we lost our survivability? Probably not. You can't neuter a weapon line because it is inconvenient to you without thinking of the whole picture. And if you are blocking, you are not regenerating stamina at a reasonable rate, and you are also not doing damage. This mindset is the same thing along the lines of people that support Miats add on. The playstyle is inconvenient to you, and it hampers your playstyle, so it should be made irrelevant. This is strictly a l2p issue.

S&B doesn't trade anything if it's BiS backbar weapon slot. If something is indisputable BiS, backbar or frontbar, it needs a nerf. While you're right in that most people aren't bursting with S&B, I know of at least 2 people who keep the "LA, ani cancel, bash" playstyle alive. And whether it works for them because they are really good or their build is really good matters not, because it still works for them. One of them is a stam DK and his leaps can still obliterate people.

You're correct that S&B should not be completely gutted, but easy permablock needs to be addressed.

Dk_needs_a_buff

The only thing that needs a nerf now ia dive. Undodgable and spamable

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also, is DboS blockable or not? And if so, why? If sub Assault is unblockable, so should DboS

The answer to your question is yes and no. The direct damage / stun component of DBoS is blockBle. The ground target AoE DoT, like all other ground target AoE dots, is not.

Waffennacht

.

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Also, is DboS blockable or not? And if so, why? If sub Assault is unblockable, so should DboS

The answer to your question is yes and no. The direct damage / stun component of DBoS is blockBle. The ground target AoE DoT, like all other ground target AoE dots, is not.

Ah Ha! Thank you so much! You just enlightened me! Now I understand the mechanics, ty ty

Edit: but now I'm slightly confused, isn't sub Assault a direct damage AoE? With no dot component? Or is is considered a dot but not modified by thaumaturge? I know it's definitely affected by direct damage modifiers.

So I think it's a direct damage area of effect - meaning again why is the direct damage part of DboS blockable but Sub Assault not?

Waffennacht

@Thogard above post please

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Thogard above post please

I have no idea but I know it’s not blockable. Haunting curse isn’t blockable either so my guess is that sub assault functions the same way - because it isn’t immedite direct damage, it’s classified as a DoT even though there’s just one tic (or two for haunting, one for daedric prey)

That’s just speculation though.

Either way it bugs me because if you try to rolldodge, you’ll get caught in the DBoS stun and take all of the dmg from the DB and the shalks. If you block, you’ll get the DoT dmg from dawnbreaker, the snare from stampede, and still eat all the shalks dmg, and because you’re snares you’ll eat most of the DoT dmg from DB too. You can roll dodge then but you’ll get birded, or you can keep holding block and run out of Stam and die. Either way, the only counter play is to either kill the warden first, which is impossible because no class can out burst a Stam warden that’s already got its dmg “Lined up” or you can wait for a teammate to come rescue you, in which case the warden will be forced to use trees instead of another DBoS for their next ulti.


Not much counterplay available.

Waffennacht

@Thogard yeah, it being unblockable changes a lot, you're right that blocking and roll dodge (esp combined with anything undodgeable lol) is too much. It definitely should be blockable, I mean imo it should act exactly like Dawn breaker - I know curse was specifically made unblockable - not mechanics logic but a ZoS "balancing" decision.

And just like flies I dunno if it's a bug or intended to go against the general functionality of ability mechanics.

It should be blockable

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

@Thogard yeah, it being unblockable changes a lot, you're right that blocking and roll dodge (esp combined with anything undodgeable lol) is too much. It definitely should be blockable, I mean imo it should act exactly like Dawn breaker - I know curse was specifically made unblockable - not mechanics logic but a ZoS "balancing" decision.

And just like flies I dunno if it's a bug or intended to go against the general functionality of ability mechanics.

It should be blockable

Blockable would help. Or just make it so you can’t stack it on top of big undodgeable damage like dawnbreaker. This wasn’t as big a problem before HotR when you could dodgeroll the DBoS.

When someone uses a stampede gap closer on you, the usual follow up is a dizzy swing, so most people will dodgeroll the stampede. If you’re in medium armor and you dodgeroll a good Stam wardens stampede, you’ll be dead before you can break free of the DBoS stun

Waffennacht

And I can even say based on time delay is not a mechanics reason to be unblockable - meteor is delayed and the initial damage is blockable.

I don't believe this part (unblockable) to be a balancing issue, but a mechanics issue.

Until I hear some sort of confirmation that it's intended to be unblockable, I personally consider the move to be bugged