Subterranean Assault Overperforming

Thogard

Vaoh wrote: »

LOL. This is incredible.

So Warden is absolutely horrible in PvE. Magicka Warden is atrocious. Warden tank is much weaker than a DK and unwanted - groups would rather take almost any other tank before a Warden.
However, they are okay at Stamina DPS (thanks to Subterranean Assault's DPS+utlility) as well as Healing thanks to Secluded Grove (which they shouldn't use in trials but that's different story). Next patch they are nerfing the HoT on Secluded Grove, meaning that the Warden Healer is even farther behind a Templar Healer than before and Healing is honestly out the window if it wasn't already before.

This leaves a Stamina Warden DPS as the singular role that a Warden can choose without totally being a liability to the group, even though anyone who has been a part of any decent group understands you will take any other Stamina DPS before looking at the Warden. Now people are asking to nerf Subterranean Assault.

Are we ever going to fix this class or is it just going to remain a never-ending cycle of bad PvPers qqing that Kodi or Sypher killed them therefore nerf the entire class?

These are the PvP forums. GO take your PvE balance issues to another board

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I do want everyone to see this

Kodi is running the META sets that Every META Stam player runs.

Seven Legion and or etc etc

There's a reason every meta player runs these sets, the above thread is all about it.

But I'll let you know right now

Kodi's Build, that build on any class Cannot win against @RouDeR 's build and it Cannot win against @Lexxypwns build (without saying too much)

That build would have to retreat to stay alive. I know the Wardens tool kit and I know all 3 builds intimately now.

It'll destroy 75% of the population, but is completely vulnerable to other builds.

Edit: 1v1

Kodi is used as an example because he streams and therefore has a lot of video and data available, but his build and playstyle is not what i was whining about...

He doesn't run a gap closer, just LOS, and i've never seen him in the BGs before. The warden in OP pic is definitely not kodi. Kodi also doesn't run trees because he's so good with LoS, so i dont know if his playstyle in particular is what this post was directed at.

@Velukodi is arguably the best player on PC NA right now. He won the major duel tournament last month and releases the most impressive 1vX and smallgroup vids. Just ask him about how he feels about stam warden (or mag warden) vs any other class.

Lexxypwns

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Ok I do want everyone to see this

Kodi is running the META sets that Every META Stam player runs.

Seven Legion and or etc etc

There's a reason every meta player runs these sets, the above thread is all about it.

But I'll let you know right now

Kodi's Build, that build on any class Cannot win against @RouDeR 's build and it Cannot win against @Lexxypwns build (without saying too much)

That build would have to retreat to stay alive. I know the Wardens tool kit and I know all 3 builds intimately now.

It'll destroy 75% of the population, but is completely vulnerable to other builds.

Edit: 1v1

Kodi is a good example because he streams and therefore has a lot of video and data available.

But he doesn't run a gap closer, just LOS, and i've never seen him in the BGs before. The warden in OP pic is definitely not kodi. Kodi also doesn't run trees because he's so good with LoS, so i dont know if his playstyle in particular is what this post was directed at.

@Velukodi is arguably the best player on PC NA right now. He won the major duel tournament last month and releases the most impressive 1vX and smallgroup vids. Just ask him about how he feels about stam warden (or mag warden) vs any other class.

For the record, Kodi would beat me 1v1, but that's a testament to his skill not the fact that he's running a superior build. However, the "magden" build I run would be superior on stamden if caltrops wasn't so ***.

I strongly believe Sub-assault is slightly too strong for pvp though

Jade1986

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol. There are plenty of sets that add a ton of damage, sets that raise your weapon damage by 300 + when you roll, there are sets like the automaton that add nearly 400 weapon damage to all physical attacks, SnB is the weakest weapon set you can choose. All other weapons have a higher damage output potential.

Vaoh

Thogard wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

LOL. This is incredible.

So Warden is absolutely horrible in PvE. Magicka Warden is atrocious. Warden tank is much weaker than a DK and unwanted - groups would rather take almost any other tank before a Warden.
However, they are okay at Stamina DPS (thanks to Subterranean Assault's DPS+utlility) as well as Healing thanks to Secluded Grove (which they shouldn't use in trials but that's different story). Next patch they are nerfing the HoT on Secluded Grove, meaning that the Warden Healer is even farther behind a Templar Healer than before and Healing is honestly out the window if it wasn't already before.

This leaves a Stamina Warden DPS as the singular role that a Warden can choose without totally being a liability to the group, even though anyone who has been a part of any decent group understands you will take any other Stamina DPS before looking at the Warden. Now people are asking to nerf Subterranean Assault.

Are we ever going to fix this class or is it just going to remain a never-ending cycle of bad PvPers qqing that Kodi or Sypher killed them therefore nerf the entire class?

These are the PvP forums. GO take your PvE balance issues to another board

The game is balanced the same way whether for PvE or PvP reasons. So yeah.... doesn't matter which side of the Forums you're on. Same game.

Vaoh

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

LOL. This is incredible.

So Warden is absolutely horrible in PvE. Magicka Warden is atrocious. Warden tank is much weaker than a DK and unwanted - groups would rather take almost any other tank before a Warden.
However, they are okay at Stamina DPS (thanks to Subterranean Assault's DPS+utlility) as well as Healing thanks to Secluded Grove (which they shouldn't use in trials but that's different story). Next patch they are nerfing the HoT on Secluded Grove, meaning that the Warden Healer is even farther behind a Templar Healer than before and Healing is honestly out the window if it wasn't already before.

This leaves a Stamina Warden DPS as the singular role that a Warden can choose without totally being a liability to the group, even though anyone who has been a part of any decent group understands you will take any other Stamina DPS before looking at the Warden. Now people are asking to nerf Subterranean Assault.

Are we ever going to fix this class or is it just going to remain a never-ending cycle of bad PvPers qqing that Kodi or Sypher killed them therefore nerf the entire class?

Excuse me? Now I'm a bad PvPer because I have a brain, can pick up a warden in very basic gear, and drop 20k aoe burst and realize that's too strong?

The Pve buffs to make warden competitive are fairly obvious and have nothing to do with the core Pvp toolkit.

Nerfing sub assault 10% isn't going to break the class for PVE if ZoS just ties the correct pve buffs in with this nerf then overall they should perform better in PvE than on live.

If ZOS ties the correct PvE buffs in.... there's only so much you can do to save Wardens atm. Winter's Embrace already requires an overhaul for Magicka Wardens to work. Stamina Wardens are at least somewhat useable (still the worst Stam DPS) but now whiny PvPers here want to take that away instead of buffing the class.

You can drop a 20k AoE burst with very basic gear? No wonder you're asking for nerfs this way. Just right now you said you can drop a 20K AoE burst, then arbitrarily ask for a 10% damage nerf as a solution. I don't know if you're calculating only Subterranean Assault or all of your burst at once, but after this proposed 10% damage nerf you'll notice Stam Wardens become even worse in PvE with no noticeable change at all in PvP. It's a simple pattern. Again you would ask for more nerfs until ZOS butchers the skill. The OP even asked for a cast time to be added.

These PvP threads always ask for solutions which either change absolutely nothing or totally ruin the skill in either some or all content. In the end no one is happy.

In fact, it's funny you mention a 10% damage nerf since this was the solution to nerf Crystal Frags and nothing changed. Later they completely removed a feature from the morph (the CC). In Subterranean Assault terms, the only thing to remove would be the debuff if ZOS followed the same course as they did with Crystal Frags, which would 100% kill Stamina Wardens in PvE.

Waffennacht

I still don't know how NBs are getting away without any nerf threads

I mean we got nerf sorc
Nerf Warden
Nerf potions
Nerf poisons
Nerf BoL

I mean there were a few nerf cloak threads, I guess they count.

So... Dk, the one class I don't have leveled, is the red headed step child of the bunch?

Vaoh

Waffennacht wrote: »

I still don't know how NBs are getting away without any nerf threads

I mean we got nerf sorc
Nerf Warden
Nerf potions
Nerf poisons
Nerf BoL

I mean there were a few nerf cloak threads, I guess they count.

So... Dk, the one class I don't have leveled, is the red headed step child of the bunch?

If you play a NB you are super super super super super super super super super skilled and are entitled to burst people because Sorcs and Wardens are the only OP classes in the game.

Nightblades are a rare breed and underpowered atm so if you play one you are also unique, unlike those gross meta Sorc and Warden classes. Also PvE doesn't matter. Also nerf Sorcs. Also nerf Wardens.

...... That's essentially PvP in a nutshell these days

Thogard

Waffennacht wrote: »

I still don't know how NBs are getting away without any nerf threads

I mean we got nerf sorc
Nerf Warden
Nerf potions
Nerf poisons
Nerf BoL

I mean there were a few nerf cloak threads, I guess they count.

So... Dk, the one class I don't have leveled, is the red headed step child of the bunch?

NIght blades are annoying if you’re solo but they don’t contribute much to a group by nature of their play style. They CAN contribute if they build that way, but they never do.

Most NB fights for most people go like this:
NB tries to kill player and almost succeeds
Player survives and begins killing NB
NB escapes
Fight ends in stalemate.
(Then in BGs)NBs team loses because NB can’t play objectives.

Annoying but not overpowered.

Lexxypwns

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol. There are plenty of sets that add a ton of damage, sets that raise your weapon damage by 300 + when you roll, there are sets like the automaton that add nearly 400 weapon damage to all physical attacks, SnB is the weakest weapon set you can choose. All other weapons have a higher damage output potential.

SnB is the best back bar weapon choice though.

Vaoh wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

LOL. This is incredible.

So Warden is absolutely horrible in PvE. Magicka Warden is atrocious. Warden tank is much weaker than a DK and unwanted - groups would rather take almost any other tank before a Warden.
However, they are okay at Stamina DPS (thanks to Subterranean Assault's DPS+utlility) as well as Healing thanks to Secluded Grove (which they shouldn't use in trials but that's different story). Next patch they are nerfing the HoT on Secluded Grove, meaning that the Warden Healer is even farther behind a Templar Healer than before and Healing is honestly out the window if it wasn't already before.

This leaves a Stamina Warden DPS as the singular role that a Warden can choose without totally being a liability to the group, even though anyone who has been a part of any decent group understands you will take any other Stamina DPS before looking at the Warden. Now people are asking to nerf Subterranean Assault.

Are we ever going to fix this class or is it just going to remain a never-ending cycle of bad PvPers qqing that Kodi or Sypher killed them therefore nerf the entire class?

Excuse me? Now I'm a bad PvPer because I have a brain, can pick up a warden in very basic gear, and drop 20k aoe burst and realize that's too strong?

The Pve buffs to make warden competitive are fairly obvious and have nothing to do with the core Pvp toolkit.

Nerfing sub assault 10% isn't going to break the class for PVE if ZoS just ties the correct pve buffs in with this nerf then overall they should perform better in PvE than on live.

If ZOS ties the correct PvE buffs in.... there's only so much you can do to save Wardens atm. Winter's Embrace already requires an overhaul for Magicka Wardens to work. Stamina Wardens are at least somewhat useable (still the worst Stam DPS) but now whiny PvPers here want to take that away instead of buffing the class.

You can drop a 20k AoE burst with very basic gear? No wonder you're asking for nerfs this way. Just right now you said you can drop a 20K AoE burst, then arbitrarily ask for a 10% damage nerf as a solution. I don't know if you're calculating only Subterranean Assault or all of your burst at once, but after this proposed 10% damage nerf you'll notice Stam Wardens become even worse in PvE with no noticeable change at all in PvP. It's a simple pattern. Again you would ask for more nerfs until ZOS butchers the skill. The OP even asked for a cast time to be added.

These PvP threads always ask for solutions which either change absolutely nothing or totally ruin the skill in either some or all content. In the end no one is happy.

In fact, it's funny you mention a 10% damage nerf since this was the solution to nerf Crystal Frags and nothing changed. Later they completely removed a feature from the morph (the CC). In Subterranean Assault terms, the only thing to remove would be the debuff if ZOS followed the same course as they did with Crystal Frags, which would 100% kill Stamina Wardens in PvE.

Quite simply, you're unfortunately wrong.

The frag nerf prevents most sorcs being able to put you into execute with a single combo. That's the same goal I'd like sub-assault nerf to achieve. I'm not trying to save pugs from getting slaughtered, I'm trying to see a slight damage adjustment so that we open up a wider array of builds which can compete with stam warden.

If you think small balance changes like this are bad then you're woefully uninformed. A small nerf to overperforming parts of the tool kit is better than seeing a class get over-nerfed.

Also, if you think NB is underperforming you're dreaming. I hope that was sarcasm.

ak_pvp

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

LOL. This is incredible.

So Warden is absolutely horrible in PvE. Magicka Warden is atrocious. Warden tank is much weaker than a DK and unwanted - groups would rather take almost any other tank before a Warden.
However, they are okay at Stamina DPS (thanks to Subterranean Assault's DPS+utlility) as well as Healing thanks to Secluded Grove (which they shouldn't use in trials but that's different story). Next patch they are nerfing the HoT on Secluded Grove, meaning that the Warden Healer is even farther behind a Templar Healer than before and Healing is honestly out the window if it wasn't already before.

This leaves a Stamina Warden DPS as the singular role that a Warden can choose without totally being a liability to the group, even though anyone who has been a part of any decent group understands you will take any other Stamina DPS before looking at the Warden. Now people are asking to nerf Subterranean Assault.

Are we ever going to fix this class or is it just going to remain a never-ending cycle of bad PvPers qqing that Kodi or Sypher killed them therefore nerf the entire class?

Excuse me? Now I'm a bad PvPer because I have a brain, can pick up a warden in very basic gear, and drop 20k aoe burst and realize that's too strong?

The Pve buffs to make warden competitive are fairly obvious and have nothing to do with the core Pvp toolkit.

Nerfing sub assault 10% isn't going to break the class for PVE if ZoS just ties the correct pve buffs in with this nerf then overall they should perform better in PvE than on live.

As a matter of fact, a 10% nerf won't do anything worth while, except for weaken the ability 10%. It would still deal high burst, do you think 5/600 less on a 20k burst mean anything. No... It's needless.

If a nerf is done, it should be how an ability is used, not just numbers etc. One idea is have it first be targeted on a player within x metres to avoid the ganks.

Solariken

Thogard wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I still don't know how NBs are getting away without any nerf threads

I mean we got nerf sorc
Nerf Warden
Nerf potions
Nerf poisons
Nerf BoL

I mean there were a few nerf cloak threads, I guess they count.

So... Dk, the one class I don't have leveled, is the red headed step child of the bunch?

NIght blades are annoying if you’re solo but they don’t contribute much to a group by nature of their play style. They CAN contribute if they build that way, but they never do.

Most NB fights for most people go like this:
NB tries to kill player and almost succeeds
Player survives and begins killing NB
NB escapes
Fight ends in stalemate.
(Then in BGs)NBs team loses because NB can’t play objectives.

Annoying but not overpowered.

Idk if my beer intake had anything to do with it but I LOL'd pretty hard at this. It's funny bc it's true.

I feel like Nightblades are super strong right now though. I really struggle against the good ones, but I wear medium so almost everything just rips right through me.

Waffennacht

I just spent the week leveling my stamden (Magden done for a while) and I will use it!

My concern has always been that a nerf, while maybe needed on the top end, eliminates viability even on the low end.

For example: Proxy det. This ability absolutely sees zero play except on a build designed only to try and maximize it (and even then...)

What was once a tool for a large variety of builds, both meta and more importantly non-meta, has been reduced to one build.

If you are to nerf sub assault, you limit it to only high damage stacking builds, a build that stacks more into Regen will get zero use for it as the cost will not justify the damage.

I hate seeing classes reduced to only using META sets to be viable i.e. mag sorc

Vaoh

Lexxypwns wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol. There are plenty of sets that add a ton of damage, sets that raise your weapon damage by 300 + when you roll, there are sets like the automaton that add nearly 400 weapon damage to all physical attacks, SnB is the weakest weapon set you can choose. All other weapons have a higher damage output potential.

SnB is the best back bar weapon choice though.

Vaoh wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

LOL. This is incredible.

So Warden is absolutely horrible in PvE. Magicka Warden is atrocious. Warden tank is much weaker than a DK and unwanted - groups would rather take almost any other tank before a Warden.
However, they are okay at Stamina DPS (thanks to Subterranean Assault's DPS+utlility) as well as Healing thanks to Secluded Grove (which they shouldn't use in trials but that's different story). Next patch they are nerfing the HoT on Secluded Grove, meaning that the Warden Healer is even farther behind a Templar Healer than before and Healing is honestly out the window if it wasn't already before.

This leaves a Stamina Warden DPS as the singular role that a Warden can choose without totally being a liability to the group, even though anyone who has been a part of any decent group understands you will take any other Stamina DPS before looking at the Warden. Now people are asking to nerf Subterranean Assault.

Are we ever going to fix this class or is it just going to remain a never-ending cycle of bad PvPers qqing that Kodi or Sypher killed them therefore nerf the entire class?

Excuse me? Now I'm a bad PvPer because I have a brain, can pick up a warden in very basic gear, and drop 20k aoe burst and realize that's too strong?

The Pve buffs to make warden competitive are fairly obvious and have nothing to do with the core Pvp toolkit.

Nerfing sub assault 10% isn't going to break the class for PVE if ZoS just ties the correct pve buffs in with this nerf then overall they should perform better in PvE than on live.

If ZOS ties the correct PvE buffs in.... there's only so much you can do to save Wardens atm. Winter's Embrace already requires an overhaul for Magicka Wardens to work. Stamina Wardens are at least somewhat useable (still the worst Stam DPS) but now whiny PvPers here want to take that away instead of buffing the class.

You can drop a 20k AoE burst with very basic gear? No wonder you're asking for nerfs this way. Just right now you said you can drop a 20K AoE burst, then arbitrarily ask for a 10% damage nerf as a solution. I don't know if you're calculating only Subterranean Assault or all of your burst at once, but after this proposed 10% damage nerf you'll notice Stam Wardens become even worse in PvE with no noticeable change at all in PvP. It's a simple pattern. Again you would ask for more nerfs until ZOS butchers the skill. The OP even asked for a cast time to be added.

These PvP threads always ask for solutions which either change absolutely nothing or totally ruin the skill in either some or all content. In the end no one is happy.

In fact, it's funny you mention a 10% damage nerf since this was the solution to nerf Crystal Frags and nothing changed. Later they completely removed a feature from the morph (the CC). In Subterranean Assault terms, the only thing to remove would be the debuff if ZOS followed the same course as they did with Crystal Frags, which would 100% kill Stamina Wardens in PvE.

Quite simply, you're unfortunately wrong.

The frag nerf prevents most sorcs being able to put you into execute with a single combo. That's the same goal I'd like sub-assault nerf to achieve. I'm not trying to save pugs from getting slaughtered, I'm trying to see a slight damage adjustment so that we open up a wider array of builds which can compete with stam warden.

If you think small balance changes like this are bad then you're woefully uninformed. A small nerf to overperforming parts of the tool kit is better than seeing a class get over-nerfed.

Also, if you think NB is underperforming you're dreaming. I hope that was sarcasm.

All the original Crystal Frag nerf did was make it slightly less enticing in PvE. Many Sorcs aren't even slotting it anymore in Vet trials. For PvP it was such a small nerf that Forum QQ actually increased because people weren't satisfied, which led to the CC being removed.

Stam Warden will have the exact same result. A tiny damage decrease only nerfs PvE where no nerfs are needed and the complainers are unsatisfied with the result. No one is happy.

Also..... you really need to chill if you think that my NB comment was serious about NBs being underpowered. No way you have that little sense of humor lol.

If you play a NB you are super super super super super super super super super skilled and are entitled to burst people because Sorcs and Wardens are the only OP classes in the game.

Nightblades are a rare breed and underpowered atm so if you play one you are also unique, unlike those gross meta Sorc and Warden classes. Also PvE doesn't matter. Also nerf Sorcs. Also nerf Wardens.

...... That's essentially PvP in a nutshell these days

^^^and the message you took was that I legit was saying NBs were underpowered.... smh

WreckfulAbandon

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

laced wrote: »

WreckfulAbandon wrote: »

Subterranean Assault is too strong right now, but heavy armor and S&B's offensive potential need to be nerfed as well. Otherwise it will make little difference.

@ZOS_Wrobel

I humbly request that the combat balance team look into the issue of being able to easily spec to permablock and also put out serious damage. This is literally a handicap for any not wearing S&B and heavy armor. It makes medium much less competitive than heavy, and while light isn't in a bad place in a vacuum, heavy armor builds are still able to check too many boxes in PvP.

Did you just say SnB offensive needs to be nerfed, are you out of your mind?!

Are you? Wrath passive? Free 5% weapon damage? Great sets like seventh legion to use with that permablock? Yes, it's highly unbalanced that such great offensive and defensive potential are available to S&B. Literally simultaneously available.

Wrath is not OP on its own, neither is 5% weapon damage. Look at the big picture. You can effortlessly permablock and still put out solid burst with S&B.

Wrath isnt even part of sword and shield.....you add far more weapon damage with outer abilities. This is just ridiculous, lol. There are plenty of sets that add a ton of damage, sets that raise your weapon damage by 300 + when you roll, there are sets like the automaton that add nearly 400 weapon damage to all physical attacks, SnB is the weakest weapon set you can choose. All other weapons have a higher damage output potential.

If you have the option to permablock all other bonuses should be severely limited imo. Even that cute little 5% weapon damage. And since I've been talking about Heavy Armor and S&B Wrath fits in there too. If you don't slot S&B you are at a disadvantage.

Xsorus

It took all of 10 seconds in beta of swapping my stam sorc setup over to a stam warden to see they would eventually get nerf calls. Granted this was when you could stack this *** burst with viper and tremors as well. I’m honestly surprised I didn’t see a whole lot more of pvp stam wardens to be honest. They’ve been fairly tame from what I’ve seen on live.

Twohothardware

Nope. If you're losing to Wardens because of Subterranean Assault it's a personal issue, not an imbalance issue. Subterranean Assault is easy to kite and it requires timing and aiming within melee range to land. Noob skills like Dark Flare you can stand way in the back and just spam.

Trinotops

I agree that Sub is a little too strong. I feel like, at the very least, making it require a target to cast and maybe a better visual cue would be good changes.

Thogard

Twohothardware wrote: »

Nope. If you're losing to Wardens because of Subterranean Assault it's a personal issue, not an imbalance issue. Subterranean Assault is easy to kite and it requires timing and aiming within melee range to land. Noob skills like Dark Flare you can stand way in the back and just spam.

If your subterranean assault is being kited then "it's a personal issue" on your end.

Here's a pro tip.

1. Out of LOS or range, hit the subterranean button.
2. wait 2 seconds
3. move in range and hit your "stampede" button
4. hit dawnbreaker of smiting immediately when stampede ends
5. watch as all three land at the same time.
6. Follow up with an reverse slice, or throw a bird on it if rolldodge.

The only counter is to block a stampede... if you roll dodge the stampede you will get caught in the DBoS stun and eat the full sub assault.

That is absolutely not a "learn to play" issue. And permablock builds cant DPS through a warden's tree ult anyway.

Thogard

Trinotops wrote: »

I agree that Sub is a little too strong. I feel like, at the very least, making it require a target to cast and maybe a better visual cue would be good changes.

Thanks man. I really value your opinion - youre one of the best warden players in BGs on PC NA.

Its also quite the coincidence that you're posting here.... does that pic in the original post maybe look a bit... familiar?

SirCritical

Oh man, a PvP related nerfWarden thread again!

How could I miss this from the start?!

SirCritical

Then my 2cents: dismiss all the *** warden class from Cyro, but let the *** us to play them freely in PvE!

CatchMeTrolling

The skill is a bit too strong as it is now but there's not many good wardens so people will be slow to realize it.

artal

Thogard wrote: »

If your subterranean assault is being kited then "it's a personal issue" on your end.

Here's a pro tip.

1. Out of LOS or range, hit the subterranean button.
2. wait 2 seconds
3. move in range and hit your "stampede" button
4. hit dawnbreaker of smiting immediately when stampede ends
5. watch as all three land at the same time.
6. Follow up with an reverse slice, or throw a bird on it if rolldodge.

The only counter is to block a stampede... if you roll dodge the stampede you will get caught in the DBoS stun and eat the full sub assault.

That is absolutely not a "learn to play" issue. And permablock builds cant DPS through a warden's tree ult anyway.

Well as much as i agree that subterranean assault is strong and maybe it should have some fine tuning, but here you are basically complaining about lets call it gank combo. So if you fight with warden in your face than its ok, but only if he is attacking you from los already prepared and catch you by surprise than its problem?
No counterplay you say. Block maybe? what is counterplay to bomblade that you dont see coming, stamblade with cloak, heavy, SA, incap?

To be honest it hurt to get hit by that combo but I'm fine with it. I'm much more bugged by birds being what they are, no dodge, no reflect.. they hurt when i'm outnumbered on medium armor and I hate them with passion.

Thogard

artal wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

If your subterranean assault is being kited then "it's a personal issue" on your end.

Here's a pro tip.

1. Out of LOS or range, hit the subterranean button.
2. wait 2 seconds
3. move in range and hit your "stampede" button
4. hit dawnbreaker of smiting immediately when stampede ends
5. watch as all three land at the same time.
6. Follow up with an reverse slice, or throw a bird on it if rolldodge.

The only counter is to block a stampede... if you roll dodge the stampede you will get caught in the DBoS stun and eat the full sub assault.

That is absolutely not a "learn to play" issue. And permablock builds cant DPS through a warden's tree ult anyway.

Well as much as i agree that subterranean assault is strong and maybe it should have some fine tuning, but here you are basically complaining about lets call it gank combo. So if you fight with warden in your face than its ok, but only if he is attacking you from los already prepared and catch you by surprise than its problem?
No counterplay you say. Block maybe? what is counterplay to bomblade that you dont see coming, stamblade with cloak, heavy, SA, incap?

To be honest it hurt to get hit by that combo but I'm fine with it. I'm much more bugged by birds being what they are, no dodge, no reflect.. they hurt when i'm outnumbered on medium armor and I hate them with passion.

The counter to bomb blades is to kill the damn bomb blade. No so easy to kill a warden.

Plus bomb blades have to make significant gear and skill sacrifices to get their builds. Wardens don’t.

lynog85

Maulkin wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

I don't see a problem with that picture. I mean if instead of Stampede, Dawnbreaker, Shalk, Executioner you had Crushing Shock, Meteor, Curse, Fury would it have been any different?

Stamdens are bursty. The delayed damage from the Shalks makes them that. In the same way the delayed damage from Curse makes Sorcs bursty.

Bursty classes be bursty.

yes. if a sorc casts those four abilities back to back it means they haven't recast their shield. furthermore, it means the sorc was in range for all 4s.

Takes 4 seconds to fire 4 instant abilities and the shields last 6. Also "in range", a Sorc can pull that combo off from 28m away, the Stamden has to be with 5 meters for the Dawnbreaker and Executioner to hit.

I'm sorry what was your point again?

Sorcs burst can only kill one person at a time. Wardens can burst down groups in seconds.

ToRelax

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If you play sorc or DK. Root, turn around. They can heavy attack to turn, but then it fks their burst. If you play NB. Cloak and move. If you play templar. Javelin them? (Less usability tbh.) If you play warden, well, then you are probably using it.

I can do the same as a DK, my ST burst combo is prebuff inferno. Talons, deep breath, whip, power whip. Deep breath, power whip, and inferno pop at the same time. Thats 2 abilities ignoring GCD. 3 if you count a random skoria proc. Or more close to the warden example. Breath, talons, leap. with DB explosion and a probable skoria popping to deal decent damage to groups. But mine is full AoE

Same with POTL or curse. Imo shalk is fine and doesn't need a nerf. IF ANYTHING. Then it has to be within range to cast.

I dont know how many times i have to say it.

The stam warden activates shalks off screen and out of range. 2 seconds later, the stam warden moves into range and uses stampede. The shalks hit right when stampede hits. There is zero counterplay.

EDIT: took out some mean things i said. i apologize for that.

1 counter play would be use a shield if mag
Another would be block
Another is have more than 20k health

I just can't feel bad about a DD being dealt damage, that's your trade off, you can kill like non other, but you die just as easily as you kill.

If you had 30-40k health or were defensive oriented you wouldn't have these issues.

I think too many players are too offensively oriented and lead this game into pure glass cannons.

Everyone wants to be a 1vXer which isn't good for the game

The problem isn't that everyone wants to deal as much damage as possible (though certainly true for many) but that you can't kill any decent player if you don't, because you're not going to run them out of resources or burst them down with a more defensive setup. When you could run almost anyone out of resources after a while before 1.6, most players invested heavily into max health (which also was more efficient then).

Xsorus

In beta you could do SA, cliff, invasion and hit which would set off viper with it and sa and cliff would hit at same time... you were stunned from invasion and a split second later ate a piece, tremors, bash, light attack with weapon enchant.

You basically could instant kill damn near everyone in beta if you ran that setup. You didn’t even need dawn breaker as the burst was insane.

Waffennacht

ToRelax wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

.

Thogard wrote: »

ak_pvp wrote: »

If you play sorc or DK. Root, turn around. They can heavy attack to turn, but then it fks their burst. If you play NB. Cloak and move. If you play templar. Javelin them? (Less usability tbh.) If you play warden, well, then you are probably using it.

I can do the same as a DK, my ST burst combo is prebuff inferno. Talons, deep breath, whip, power whip. Deep breath, power whip, and inferno pop at the same time. Thats 2 abilities ignoring GCD. 3 if you count a random skoria proc. Or more close to the warden example. Breath, talons, leap. with DB explosion and a probable skoria popping to deal decent damage to groups. But mine is full AoE

Same with POTL or curse. Imo shalk is fine and doesn't need a nerf. IF ANYTHING. Then it has to be within range to cast.

I dont know how many times i have to say it.

The stam warden activates shalks off screen and out of range. 2 seconds later, the stam warden moves into range and uses stampede. The shalks hit right when stampede hits. There is zero counterplay.

EDIT: took out some mean things i said. i apologize for that.

1 counter play would be use a shield if mag
Another would be block
Another is have more than 20k health

I just can't feel bad about a DD being dealt damage, that's your trade off, you can kill like non other, but you die just as easily as you kill.

If you had 30-40k health or were defensive oriented you wouldn't have these issues.

I think too many players are too offensively oriented and lead this game into pure glass cannons.

Everyone wants to be a 1vXer which isn't good for the game

The problem isn't that everyone wants to deal as much damage as possible (though certainly true for many) but that you can't kill any decent player if you don't, because you're not going to run them out of resources or burst them down with a more defensive setup. When you could run almost anyone out of resources after a while before 1.6, most players invested heavily into max health (which also was more efficient then).

First it's annoying as get out that healing is tied into the same stat as attacks.

My style is more defensive leaning, I do not want to be pigeonholed into a permablocker build because there is no reason to try to have any offensive capabilities due to nerfs.

I feel the LoS complaint is valid, I dislike things that prevent counter play, having to have a target to initially active it sounds fair (However LoS better not cancel it)

Valencer

Subterranean Assault hits about as hard as a Dawnbreaker's initial hit. It's also unblockable, undodgeable, applies major fracture and is AoE in addition to being delayed and thus really easy to line up with the rest of your burst.

It's hard not to call it overperforming