Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!

Dorrino

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Interesting results . Were all these snipe attacks done on different players or are they a combination different targets but some on the same target or even a lot on the same targets ? Just curious as to how uncontrolled the test results are .

Purely raw snipe casts and hits. Some people got multiple hits and misses. Some got just one. No preference. Raw cyro experience. I tried to minimize any personal bias i could introduce.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just had another thought . Don't you have access to the number of people that run your addon or just the amount of people that downloaded it ?

The later one.

You can roughly extimate the number of people using it by evaluating the spike in downloads numbers after an update.

My (very rough) estimation is that total number of people that run it is about 1.5 - 2k.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If we knew those numbers while testing snipe on different targets then we would learn not just how many people running the addon but also how many running the feature that tells when to dodge . Those results would then show a small section of the effects of the addon against players using snipe .

It's really hard to make a controlled experiment like this.

You need to know beforehand if the guy runs it or not and then compare the percentages of hits between these 2 categories.

Rohamad_Ali

Dorrino wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Interesting results . Were all these snipe attacks done on different players or are they a combination different targets but some on the same target or even a lot on the same targets ? Just curious as to how uncontrolled the test results are .

Purely raw snipe casts and hits. Some people got multiple hits and misses. Some got just one. No preference. Raw cyro experience. I tried to minimize any personal bias i could introduce.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just had another thought . Don't you have access to the number of people that run your addon or just the amount of people that downloaded it ?

The later one.

You can roughly extimate the number of people using it by evaluating the spike in downloads numbers after an update.

My (very rough) estimation is that total number of people that run it is about 1.5 - 2k.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If we knew those numbers while testing snipe on different targets then we would learn not just how many people running the addon but also how many running the feature that tells when to dodge . Those results would then show a small section of the effects of the addon against players using snipe .

It's really hard to make a controlled experiment like this.

You need to know beforehand if the guy runs it or not and then compare the percentages of hits between these 2 categories.

I understand . At least you are looking to the effects for yourself to see how good or bad the situation is for chnl attcks .Are you going to try stealth at any point or do you already know where the results will probably land ? I know it goes against the premise of creating that feature inside the addon doing this but I applaud your research .

Dorrino

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Interesting results . Were all these snipe attacks done on different players or are they a combination different targets but some on the same target or even a lot on the same targets ? Just curious as to how uncontrolled the test results are .

Purely raw snipe casts and hits. Some people got multiple hits and misses. Some got just one. No preference. Raw cyro experience. I tried to minimize any personal bias i could introduce.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just had another thought . Don't you have access to the number of people that run your addon or just the amount of people that downloaded it ?

The later one.

You can roughly extimate the number of people using it by evaluating the spike in downloads numbers after an update.

My (very rough) estimation is that total number of people that run it is about 1.5 - 2k.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If we knew those numbers while testing snipe on different targets then we would learn not just how many people running the addon but also how many running the feature that tells when to dodge . Those results would then show a small section of the effects of the addon against players using snipe .

It's really hard to make a controlled experiment like this.

You need to know beforehand if the guy runs it or not and then compare the percentages of hits between these 2 categories.

I understand . At least you are looking to the effects for yourself to see how good or bad the situation is for chnl attcks .Are you going to try stealth at any point or do you already know where the results will probably land ? I know it goes against the premise of creating that feature inside the addon doing this but I applaud your research .

Thank you

Stealth like in trying to gank? I doubt so. I never ganked and i'll mostly likely won't be able to adequately understand what exactly is frustrating for gankers and what is not.

If i ambush a target from cloak and it dodges i feel happy for the target, because it avoided a really easy and at the same time very effective attack, i.e. cheese.

I'm not the best person to relate to ganker's mentality. I don't expect fights to be easy.

In any case snipe non-gank main hand playstyle felt so refreshing after constant melee fights:) Pewpewpew. Kinda cool.

LegendaryMage

Dorrino wrote: »

Ok, since some people were quite persistent at claiming that most people run the addon and in the result snipe became non-viable as a main spam ability (i.e. hit chance is abysmally low) i decided to make an experiment.

I slotted snipe and used it almost exclusively as a main damage spammable.

Conditions:

1. I didn't snipe from cloak/invisibility to obtain the lowest value on snipe hit percentage (i'm always visible).
2. I counted unblocked and undodged hits, i.e. hits that target didn't react to even if he got the notification.
3. Blocked, dodged, cloaked and otherwise missed snipe casts were considered a miss.
4. I didn't stick to a particular location and to particular set of players.
5. The test lasted about 3 hours.

Results:

Total number of snipes - 1015.
Total number of hits - 713.
Hit percentage - 70.24%

Given that snipe tooltip (bow bar) is about 38% higher than surprise attack (2h gs bar), the 70% hit chance makes it a noticeably more effective spammable damage-wise along with almost perfect safety of the player at snipes max range.

The only weak place of snipe that found is that its channel is interruptible. Otherwise it would be a great alternative to dizzying swing even at melee distance.

Generally i enjoyed this experience, even though in its current state snipe has limited viability in 1v1 situations (mostly because how easy it is to interrupt it).

LegendaryMage wrote: »

@Dorrino alright then bud, I've said everything I had to say, if you'd like to give yourself a few runs with me any time, go on PTS I'll be spending some time there nowadays, so add me when you're around @LegendaryMage and we'll have some fun.

Since you refuse to conduct a conversation until i demonstrate you your lack of pvp skills, i'd indulge you after a proper apology on the forums for you offensive attitude towards me.

I don't have to apologize to you for calling your add-on a bad name. I still stand behind it that it should never be allowed to exist even in its current form, and as for duels - I have no shortage of those either, the challenge is there for you, since you said you were bored and there's no challenges left for you anymore, which I find ridiculous.

So maybe there aren't any where you play, but where you play is just a small portion of the game's overall population so I find it amusing that you feel like that, hence the invitation to come and show me what you've got.

And the invitation is there also because you keep insisting that you'd do, or something would happen, without having any evidence to back it up, which is very arrogant and in my experience deserving of a nice beating session to sort that out. I happen to have a lot of experience with that and so I'm always there for you.

You will get an apology from me when you cut off the in-advance notifications from your add-on. I don't care about your tests, I've played an archer build for a long time by now and I know that it's totally messed up and made useless here where I'm playing. You need to apologize to me, and everyone else who can't fully enjoy their playstyle, because you didn't think that it's a problem, on a basis of having access to something that clearly should never have been allowed in a PVP environment. This says about you as a player a lot, and nothing good for that matter.

I am done with this discussion. The amount of people agreeing on the first post says it all. If you can't see that either, then that's sad.

Jade1986

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Interesting results . Were all these snipe attacks done on different players or are they a combination different targets but some on the same target or even a lot on the same targets ? Just curious as to how uncontrolled the test results are .

Purely raw snipe casts and hits. Some people got multiple hits and misses. Some got just one. No preference. Raw cyro experience. I tried to minimize any personal bias i could introduce.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I just had another thought . Don't you have access to the number of people that run your addon or just the amount of people that downloaded it ?

The later one.

You can roughly extimate the number of people using it by evaluating the spike in downloads numbers after an update.

My (very rough) estimation is that total number of people that run it is about 1.5 - 2k.

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

If we knew those numbers while testing snipe on different targets then we would learn not just how many people running the addon but also how many running the feature that tells when to dodge . Those results would then show a small section of the effects of the addon against players using snipe .

It's really hard to make a controlled experiment like this.

You need to know beforehand if the guy runs it or not and then compare the percentages of hits between these 2 categories.

I understand . At least you are looking to the effects for yourself to see how good or bad the situation is for chnl attcks .Are you going to try stealth at any point or do you already know where the results will probably land ? I know it goes against the premise of creating that feature inside the addon doing this but I applaud your research .

He is just doing that to appease people, but will never change the aspect of the add on because it is "awesome" and he thinks it is fine, using the evil is relative argument.

Jade1986

ZOS_AntonioP wrote: »

Hello everyone,

Recently we've had to remove a few posts for becoming far too heated. Keep in mind that flaming is against the Forum Rules, as it never leads anywhere good for a thread. We understand there will be several points in this topic that many will not agree on, but we ask that you stay constructive and respectful when arguing these points.

Thank you for understanding.

If you guys understand why its heated, then you also understand why the ranged community is in an uproar about this, and has been for a long time, so why on earth is there nothing being done, or at least an official statement so we can all move on to games that respect our playstyle.

UnseenTruth

addon is really awesome
nothing else

Jade1986

UnseenTruth wrote: »

addon is really awesome
nothing else

Nice phantom account to support him. xD

Feanor

The "ranged" community. Coward County.

Jade1986

Feanor wrote: »

The "ranged" community. Coward County.

Right, all ranged players are cowards for using the playstyle they like.

How could I ever argue with that logic. I could argue that all melee players are brain dead brutes, but that isn't true, just like your silly comment isn't true.

Also, your main is a sorc, so you just insulted yourself.

DDuke

Dorrino wrote: »

Ok, since some people were quite persistent at claiming that most people run the addon and in the result snipe became non-viable as a main spam ability (i.e. hit chance is abysmally low) i decided to make an experiment.

I slotted snipe and used it almost exclusively as a main damage spammable.

Conditions:

1. I didn't snipe from cloak/invisibility to obtain the lowest value on snipe hit percentage (i'm always visible).
2. I counted unblocked and undodged hits, i.e. hits that target didn't react to even if he got the notification.
3. Blocked, dodged, cloaked and otherwise missed snipe casts were considered a miss.
4. I didn't stick to a particular location and to particular set of players.
5. The test lasted about 3 hours.

Results:

Total number of snipes - 1015.
Total number of hits - 713.
Hit percentage - 70.24%

What do you know, there are still some people who don't use your addon.

...and even if some those people did, they probably didn't bother blocking/dodging when they saw a noob run up to them and spam snipe outside of stealth


Just curious: were you "1vX'ing/1v1'ing", or sniping people already fighting others? I think I know the answer already but let's hear it.

Dorrino wrote: »

Given that snipe tooltip (bow bar) is about 38% higher than surprise attack (2h gs bar), the 70% hit chance makes it a noticeably more effective spammable damage-wise along with almost perfect safety of the player at snipes max range.

Yet you completely choose to ignore the fact that it has a bloody cast time (1.1s), unlike Surprise Attack, and max range Snipes are not only far easier to dodge, but also cannot be weaved with light attacks (meaning no Hawk Eye stacks) or comboed with any other skills.

Your comparison of Snipe to Surprise Attack would be like comparing a weaker version of Wrecking Blow to Surprise Attack.


Fact is, one would currently get more skills spamming Surprise Attack in melee range with a bow equipped than by spamming Snipe.

Dorrino wrote: »

The only weak place of snipe that found is that its channel is interruptible. Otherwise it would be a great alternative to dizzying swing even at melee distance.

Generally i enjoyed this experience, even though in its current state snipe has limited viability in 1v1 situations (mostly because how easy it is to interrupt it).

So let me guess how your "test" went: you spammed snipe non-stop at people without utilizing any other skills that'd allow you to actually do so (cloak, snares, kiting, traps) then got interrupted and came to the conclusion that its only problem is it being interruptable?

The reason why its unusable (no, not "limited viability") in 1v1 (and everywhere else as long as even one person uses your addon) currently is the API & addons like yours.


If you think it's so viable, why don't you show me a recent 1vX video with bow being used as main weapon?

How about a 1v1 tournament winner with a snipe slotted? Or even a semi-finalist in a tournament? ...even someone who won one fight in a tournament with bow as a main weapon?


Or better yet, conduct an actual scientific experiment where the control group is using your addon, instead of random results from some random pug fight.

Feanor

laced wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The "ranged" community. Coward County.

Right, all ranged players are cowards for using the playstyle they like.

How could I ever argue with that logic. I could argue that all melee players are brain dead brutes, but that isn't true, just like your silly comment isn't true.

Also, your main is a sorc, so you just insulted yourself. xD

I have yet to see a Sorc that sits somewhere in stealth waiting for players to engage others and then start sniping away. There have been overload ganks with the Stygian set before it was nerfed, but that was very niche as not many players grasped the power of that set.

Archers on the other hand? Can't walk 3 steps in Cyrodiil without meeting someone living his dream to be Legolas at Helm's Deep.

I very well remember the time when most of Cyrodiil was a stamNB and you couldn't leave a keep without getting ganked. It's one of the main reasons we can enjoy the awesome tank and heal meta now. When people drop like flies they will do something about it. Gankers shouldn't complain. It's a *** playstyle for *** players.

I have met great stamNB players on my way. They don't gank. They don't need to because they get their kills anyway.

But I can see what you all want - get back to where Cyrodiil was all Stamblades. The bow will never be a balanced weapon if you want it to be more than support - it will be either too weak or too strong.

Jade1986

Feanor wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The "ranged" community. Coward County.

Right, all ranged players are cowards for using the playstyle they like.

How could I ever argue with that logic. I could argue that all melee players are brain dead brutes, but that isn't true, just like your silly comment isn't true.

Also, your main is a sorc, so you just insulted yourself. xD

I have yet to see a Sorc that sits somewhere in stealth waiting for players to engage others and then start sniping away. There have been overload ganks with the Stygian set before it was nerfed, but that was very niche as not many players grasped the power of that set.

Archers on the other hand? Can't walk 3 steps in Cyrodiil without meeting someone living his dream to be Legolas at Helm's Deep.

I very well remember the time when most of Cyrodiil was a stamNB and you couldn't leave a keep without getting ganked. It's one of the main reasons we can enjoy the awesome tank and heal meta now. When people drop like flies they will do something about it. Gankers shouldn't complain. It's a *** playstyle for *** players.

I have met great stamNB players on my way. They don't gank. They don't need to because they get their kills anyway.

But I can see what you all want - get back to where Cyrodiil was all Stamblades. The bow will never be a balanced weapon if you want it to be more than support - it will be either too weak or too strong.

You seem to be confusing ranged with stealth. Stealth =/= ranged. Until you can grasp that most basic of concepts, discussing anything else with you is pointless, and I won't entertain your nonsense. Also, warden archers cant stealth atm, because of the netch glitch, so we have had to improvise, and even we are screwed over. Again, until your get your facts straight, I am done with you. Grow up.

Tommy_The_Gun

To be honest since add-ons are enabled via in-game menu I simply don't know why it is even possible to use them in ANY PvP content. Sure you will not be able tu use mm in Cyro or IC, battlegrounds or PvP duel... but why would you ?

IMHO add-ons should be auto-disabled in ANY PvP content be default with now option to use them while in PvP zone or duelling.

btw. Is there ANY successfully competitive PvP game that allows mods / add-ons ?

Jade1986

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

To be honest since add-ons are enabled via in-game menu I simply don't know why it is even possible to use them in ANY PvP content. Sure you will not be able tu use mm in Cyro or IC, battlegrounds or PvP duel... but why would you ?

IMHO add-ons should be auto-disabled in ANY PvP content be default with now option to use them while in PvP zone or duelling.

btw. Is there ANY successfully competitive PvP game that allows mods / add-ons ?

No. I used to play CoD 2, WaW, Modern warfare, GoW, Halo3, Reach, and Halo 4, Starcraft 1 and 2, SWTOR and Wildstar ( RiP) all competitively and if there were ANY outside of vanilla game influences , said player would be banned from ever competing again. Hell, they would get banned if they had any other things running that ate up bandwidth except for capture cards / streaming programs. If this game were to ever get competitive, officially through mlg for example, it would only be on console, because there is no way to check who is running what atm in this game. I do like your idea though, completely disable add ons for cyro and battlegrounds. That would be an easy fix. ZoS wouldn't have to edit the api, they wouldn't have to edit their official stance, and they wouldn't have to change the ToS.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

laced wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

The "ranged" community. Coward County.

Right, all ranged players are cowards for using the playstyle they like.

How could I ever argue with that logic. I could argue that all melee players are brain dead brutes, but that isn't true, just like your silly comment isn't true.

Also, your main is a sorc, so you just insulted yourself. xD

I have yet to see a Sorc that sits somewhere in stealth waiting for players to engage others and then start sniping away. There have been overload ganks with the Stygian set before it was nerfed, but that was very niche as not many players grasped the power of that set.

If that is the way they choose to play the game, why shouldn't they?

The changes to Stygian were atrocious and ruined multiple awesome playstyles, including my Heavy Attack magicka NB (hardly a meta build that needed any nerfs).

Feanor wrote: »

Archers on the other hand? Can't walk 3 steps in Cyrodiil without meeting someone living his dream to be Legolas at Helm's Deep.

And so what? If they want to play that way, who are you to tell they shouldn't?

"I dislike sorcs camping mines & atronach, lets remove sorcs from the game."

Wtf kind of logic is that?

Feanor wrote: »

I very well remember the time when most of Cyrodiil was a stamNB and you couldn't leave a keep without getting ganked. It's one of the main reasons we can enjoy the awesome tank and heal meta now. When people drop like flies they will do something about it. Gankers shouldn't complain. It's a *** playstyle for *** players.

People dropped like flies because:

1. Snipe had 3 second cast time and around 3 times more damage.
2. Nightblades had a skill called "Haste" which allowed you to perfectly weave a full heavy attack & PI and have them land at the same time as that 3 second cast time Snipe.
3. There was no Battle Spirit.

Bow hasn't been viable for ganking (or anything) since 2015


The reason we "enjoy" the awesome tank & heal meta is because no other playstyle is viable anymore ("tank & heal" has always been viable), and that's due to people like you thinking they shouldn't be simply because you dislike those other playstyles.

Feanor wrote: »

I have met great stamNB players on my way. They don't gank. They don't need to because they get their kills anyway.

Yet they can still very well gank (which is perfectly fine, it's part of the game) with melee builds.

I can still erase your sorc from existence before you can even CC break with a Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap combo (not even sneak required for that).

Feanor wrote: »

But I can see what you all want - get back to where Cyrodiil was all Stamblades. The bow will never be a balanced weapon if you want it to be more than support - it will be either too weak or too strong.

Sorc will never be balanced, they'll either be too weak or too strong (see: forum threads).

Let's make an addon that makes sorcs obsolete. /s

DDuke

Tommy_The_Gun wrote: »

To be honest since add-ons are enabled via in-game menu I simply don't know why it is even possible to use them in ANY PvP content. Sure you will not be able tu use mm in Cyro or IC, battlegrounds or PvP duel... but why would you ?

IMHO add-ons should be auto-disabled in ANY PvP content be default with now option to use them while in PvP zone or duelling.

btw. Is there ANY successfully competitive PvP game that allows mods / add-ons ?

Well, define "successfully".

WoW allows addons and hosts eSports tournaments for their arena, but their addons aren't as exploitative (they don't tell you when a rogue is about to use a stealth skill on you for instance).
NCSoft generally excludes addons from its games (Blade&Soul, GW2, WildStar etc).
BDO doesn't allow addons.


That's all I can comment on, not sure about games like FFXIV etc

olivesforge

This is still going? Months after the question was pretty much settled and after Zeni's made it clear what's appropriate and what's not?

Maybe consider some gameplay videos to help play around the add-on.

How Stuff Works: Salt

Salt

DDuke

olivesforge wrote: »

This is still going? Months after the question was pretty much settled and after Zeni's made it clear what's appropriate and what's not?

Maybe consider some gameplay videos to help play around the add-on.

How Stuff Works: Salt

Salt

Yes, Zenimax did make clear what's appropriate and what's not:

Originally Posted by dorrino View Post
While you're here i have a question.

This change obviously severely limits the features of my addon. Can i (we) get an official stance on which parts of the addon are not desirable within ZOS design direction?

Even after the change i have some ideas how to still get the info i need for the addon to work. This will be noticeably more cumbersome and unreliable (probably) though.

In any case my intention is NOT to start an arms race with you guys. And i don't really want to spend hours of developing an intricate system to circumvent this change only to realize you will counter it with some other change

So, please, tell me which features are fine to have within your vision and which features will get an active countermeasures from you?

Thank you,

PS. Chip, in 5-10 min i'll PM you an exploit, that i found, that is very much possible with the current API. It technically allows to automate almost any players actions and CONDITIONALLY call protected and PRIVATE functions even when in combat. Cheers

ZOS_ChipHilseberg: I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

Now we're making it clear that their "fix" failed to actually fix anything other than the heavy attack timers showing for attacks from stealth.


I'll gladly make "How to Play Without Miat's Cheats" videos for you & our dear addon creator once they fix the API.

Feanor

DDuke wrote: »

If that is the way they choose to play the game, why shouldn't they?

The changes to Stygian were atrocious and ruined multiple awesome playstyles, including my Heavy Attack magicka NB (hardly a meta build that needed any nerfs).

It's not the players fault that the game allows stuff like that. That's true. That doesn't change the issue with it though. 100-0 within a few hits just shouldn't be possible.

And so what? If they want to play that way, who are you to tell they shouldn't?

"I dislike sorcs camping mines & atronach, lets remove sorcs from the game."

Wtf kind of logic is that?

Play what and like you want. It's the biggest failure of ZOS telling that to their audience and the root of so many problems within the game. When everything has to be viable because there surely always is someone who wants to do even the weirdest stuff balancing gets just so much harder.

BTW, Sorc mine camping doesn't kill anybody. You can just ignore if you choose too. Beside, with the HA meta people just eat the mines and still hardly take a dent. Atro mine camping isn't what it was and certainly not viable open world.

People dropped like flies because:

1. Snipe had 3 second cast time and around 3 times more damage.
2. Nightblades had a skill called "Haste" which allowed you to perfectly weave a full heavy attack & PI and have them land at the same time as that 3 second cast time Snipe.
3. There was no Battle Spirit.

Bow hasn't been viable for ganking (or anything) since 2015

You keep posting that over and over and over. It's your opinion. I don't agree though. The solution always has been: zerg up. Either if it's offensively or defensively. I regularly encounter 3 of more archers sniping to their hearts content on 1 target.

Yet they can still very well gank (which is perfectly fine, it's part of the game) with melee builds.

I can still erase your sorc from existence before you can even CC break with a Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap combo (not even sneak required for that).

I could play devil's advocate here and say the API is part of the game too. But we've been there before in these whole 1000 pages. No need to regurgitate.

As for that combo, yes, sure. It's another thing that's stupidly broken with cloak being a pimped up sneak. But somehow Sorc OP and NB a dead class nerfed to the ground and hated by devs. Right?

Sorc will never be balanced, they'll either be too weak or too strong (see: forum threads).

Let's make an addon that makes sorcs obsolete. /s

Forum threads are an awful source for balancing the game. So many people just follow their own agenda or have no knowledge about the game.

As you said, the addon affects Sorcs as well. I don't complain about it though.

DDuke

Feanor wrote: »

DDuke wrote: »

If that is the way they choose to play the game, why shouldn't they?

The changes to Stygian were atrocious and ruined multiple awesome playstyles, including my Heavy Attack magicka NB (hardly a meta build that needed any nerfs).

It's not the players fault that the game allows stuff like that. That's true. That doesn't change the issue with it though. 100-0 within a few hits just shouldn't be possible.

Yet it's possible for dozens of builds currently (not bow though).

Not that it's necessarily a bad thing - without burst how do you expect to kill zerglings with healbots spamming shields & heals left & right?

There's currently a big thread on PvP Combat&Skills subforum about stam warden Stampede->Shalks+DBOS->Rev Slice combo instagibbing people, which I find funny because melee stamblades can do same dmg in same time with Cloak->Heavy+SA->Incap.

Feanor wrote: »

And so what? If they want to play that way, who are you to tell they shouldn't?

"I dislike sorcs camping mines & atronach, lets remove sorcs from the game."

Wtf kind of logic is that?

Play what and like you want. It's the biggest failure of ZOS telling that to their audience and the root of so many problems within the game. When everything has to be viable because there surely always is someone who wants to do even the weirdest stuff balancing gets just so much harder.

"Biggest failure"? Imagine if they had advertised this game as "Tanks & Sorcerers Online", guess how many would've bought it?

You may not like archers/hunters, but they happen to be one of the biggest RPG archetypes (same with rogues/assassins) that attract people to even pick up the game.

Feanor wrote: »

BTW, Sorc mine camping doesn't kill anybody. You can just ignore if you choose too. Beside, with the HA meta people just eat the mines and still hardly take a dent. Atro mine camping isn't what it was and certainly not viable open world.

Sorc mines kill plenty of less skilled stam players who don't know their exact range and what kind of dmg they deal and walk into them, just like Snipe kills less skilled Sorcerers (assuming they don't use cheat addons like Miat's).

But yes, would you be happier if I brought up Soul Assault rather than mines? Or curse+frags? Pets?

Feanor wrote: »

People dropped like flies because:

1. Snipe had 3 second cast time and around 3 times more damage.
2. Nightblades had a skill called "Haste" which allowed you to perfectly weave a full heavy attack & PI and have them land at the same time as that 3 second cast time Snipe.
3. There was no Battle Spirit.

Bow hasn't been viable for ganking (or anything) since 2015

You keep posting that over and over and over. It's your opinion. I don't agree though. The solution always has been: zerg up. Either if it's offensively or defensively. I regularly encounter 3 of more archers sniping to their hearts content on 1 target.
[/quote]

Yes, just an opinion of someone who has actually played an archer build back when it was viable. If you think it's viable, why don't you prove it? Show me a "recent" (2015>) 1vX video where bow is used as main weapon, or a tournament where someone does well with a bow build. Go on, I'll wait.

Meanwhile, you can stop talking bs. If you require a zerg to kill anyone with a build, it's not a good build. It's not a viable build.

When you play a build you want to feel powerful, not someone who has to rely on friends to do anything (and you'd still do infinite times better as a melee build helping your friends).

Feanor wrote: »

Yet they can still very well gank (which is perfectly fine, it's part of the game) with melee builds.

I can still erase your sorc from existence before you can even CC break with a Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap combo (not even sneak required for that).

I could play devil's advocate here and say the API is part of the game too. But we've been there before in these whole 1000 pages. No need to regurgitate.

As for that combo, yes, sure. It's another thing that's stupidly broken with cloak being a pimped up sneak. But somehow Sorc OP and NB a dead class nerfed to the ground and hated by devs. Right?

Yes, let's not regurgitate. ZOS has made clear how they intend the gameplay to be:

ZOS_ChipHilseberg: I believe that it was anything that allows you to detect the presence or actions of a hostile player without having to see them.

The API is not supposed to give any information of actions of hostile players you can't see.

Abusing the API is thus the same as abusing Sharpened Maces in 2015 or Double Mundus.


The addon author even admitted that he didn't even report cast time abilities still showing after ZOS supposedly "fixed" them, nor did I see anyone else on esoui.com (where the person responsible for addons/API usually posts) reporting them to still be broken.

Shameful, selfish & dishonest behaviour.

And no, there's nothing wrong with Cloak->Heavy Attack+SA->Incap. Not any more so than with any of the other burst combos in the game.


You can do the same damage as sorc with Curse->Meteor->Frag+Rune Cage next patch, or just keep getting free kills on medium armor builds with Soul Assault combos.

Feanor wrote: »

Sorc will never be balanced, they'll either be too weak or too strong (see: forum threads).

Let's make an addon that makes sorcs obsolete. /s

Forum threads are an awful source for balancing the game. So many people just follow their own agenda or have no knowledge about the game.

As you said, the addon affects Sorcs as well. I don't complain about it though.

You don't see the irony in that?

Yes, the addon affects Sorcs - but it doesn't make them unplayable.


Guess what the addon doesn't affect, at all?

My current melee build, the one that can cloak->instagib light armor sorcs like yours & dodge every single frag & heavy attack you throw because of this addon.

Yet I complain, because this addon is bad for build diversity, bad for those who like skilled play and is killing the game on PC.

SodanTok

Why after 21 pages there is still discussion about archers or stealth. This is not a thread to tell ZoS pls buff this or nerfs this. If you think it is ok to get advantage from 3rd party source against playstyle you don't like, you are the wrong one. That is not even subjective in any way. You are simply wrong.
ZoS could make the most OP class/build combo possible and anyone thinking it is right to get 3rd party advantage against them would still be wrong.

ZoS are the wardens of the balance. Everyone has a right to lobby for or against anything they want. Nobody has any right to directly change the balance.

rfennell_ESO

Dorrino wrote: »

Ok, since some people were quite persistent at claiming that most people run the addon and in the result snipe became non-viable as a main spam ability (i.e. hit chance is abysmally low) i decided to make an experiment.

I slotted snipe and used it almost exclusively as a main damage spammable.

Conditions:

1. I didn't snipe from cloak/invisibility to obtain the lowest value on snipe hit percentage (i'm always visible).
2. I counted unblocked and undodged hits, i.e. hits that target didn't react to even if he got the notification.
3. Blocked, dodged, cloaked and otherwise missed snipe casts were considered a miss.
4. I didn't stick to a particular location and to particular set of players.
5. The test lasted about 3 hours.

Results:

Total number of snipes - 1015.
Total number of hits - 713.
Hit percentage - 70.24%

Given that snipe tooltip (bow bar) is about 38% higher than surprise attack (2h gs bar), the 70% hit chance makes it a noticeably more effective spammable damage-wise along with almost perfect safety of the player at snipes max range.

The only weak place of snipe that found is that its channel is interruptible. Otherwise it would be a great alternative to dizzying swing even at melee distance.

Generally i enjoyed this experience, even though in its current state snipe has limited viability in 1v1 situations (mostly because how easy it is to interrupt it).

LegendaryMage wrote: »

@Dorrino alright then bud, I've said everything I had to say, if you'd like to give yourself a few runs with me any time, go on PTS I'll be spending some time there nowadays, so add me when you're around @LegendaryMage and we'll have some fun.

Since you refuse to conduct a conversation until i demonstrate you your lack of pvp skills, i'd indulge you after a proper apology on the forums for you offensive attitude towards me.

The viability of "snipe" builds has always been limited (it was so before your addon). It's not going to one shot nearly anyone... and anyone paying attention can hear the snipe sound or notice a huge chunk of the health disappear.

It's strength has always been it's ability to hit others when they can't hit back as it outranges other abilities. With mobility and charges being what they are, that's not nearly enough to make it "good". It's very limited in it's effectiveness, however you can use it while out of range of other's response.

As for your test, it's probably not wrong. There are a large number of players that do not get the warnings. I can personally attest to that as I primarily engage with lethal arrow. The thing to keep in mind is that engaging a target from range and closing is viable as you are engaging a target that has reduced health, has major defile on them, is poisoned (health regen debuff) and can (and should) have poison injection ticking on them as well as a poison (if you choose to use one).

To be effective as a snipe build, you can't just be a snipe build (bow bow). Even as a nighblade using cloak (shadowy disguise) to hide your snipe casts. The true "archer" style is, has and likely will never be very effective unless you can control the front line of the fight (wall, tower, zerg). To be effective using snipe requires you to make decisions that hurt you, mostly things like giving up a cc or giving up defensive abilities and/or running a secondary offensive bar with 2h. A nightblade running magelight, shadowy disguise, relentless focus, rally and stacking stamina and weapon damage (hence giving up regen) CAN still hit hard (and make everything crit). Versus anyone worth their weight in salt you will have to close to finish them.

From personal experience the frequency of people immediately dodge rolling as you queue a snipe isn't high. However, the incidence of it with players that are good at pvp is high. Nearly all organized groups, small group players, 1vxers and the gambit of "experienced at pvp" types are nearly 100% running it.

It doesn't make using snipes totally ineffective though. You can block cast snipes to see who is using it or just to make the monkey start dodge rolling (it has the range that any medium armor nightblade isn't going to be revealed from a detect pot). Also, a key point is that dodged attacks do not remove stealth. If you fire off a snipe and they dodge it due to the addon, you haven't left stealth.... so you can just pick another target. It's still a ranged attack that can easily crit for 12k+ on targets without heavy or defensive abilities running.

It can be argued that snipe is only useful on potatoes. Sure, but it makes french fires out of them and it's makes them faster and crispier than most other options with less risk of counter attacks than any other setup. Many critical charge, ulti dump setups will kill someone quicker and with dodge roll and movement speed are going to get away. The difference is mostly in that you don't actually have to ulti dump to kill people, that and the simple fact that if you pick your targets wisely and kill them, you are back in stealth. The only thing that a snipe build (or build that has the option of snipe) has over others is the ability to kill without ultimate usage.

Publius_Scipio

Only ZOS can draw the line in the sand and say what it or isn’t allowed in their game. So Miat (or any addon creator) isn’t “wrong” as long as ZOS is allowing it. Even if there is some real nasty addon that is private, if ZOS doesn’t take those scenarios into account and keeps the API wide open, no player can be right or wrong on the matter. Where I absolutely disagree with Miat or anyone who is for the addon, is where they say it’s not an advantage for a player using it.

The addon was created to be advantageous to use. You don’t create an addon that then is detrimental to use. The addon gives the player using it cues and increases reaction time in PvP combat. That by definition is an advantage over someone who doesn’t see those cues.

DDuke

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

The viability of "snipe" builds has always been limited (it was so before your addon). It's not going to one shot nearly anyone... and anyone paying attention can hear the snipe sound or notice a huge chunk of the health disappear.

-snip-

Incorrect. Snipe/Bow Builds (same thing really) were very viable back in 2014 (and 2015, though 2015 was more of a Bow/DW hybrid era).

https://youtu.be/MILkeZ1MMdc?t=1m9s

It's quite interesting actually, the gradual shift towards DW in my videos (even ditching bow entirely for my 8th video & going DW/DW).

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

To be effective as a snipe build, you can't just be a snipe build (bow bow). Even as a nighblade using cloak (shadowy disguise) to hide your snipe casts. The true "archer" style is, has and likely will never be very effective unless you can control the front line of the fight (wall, tower, zerg). To be effective using snipe requires you to make decisions that hurt you, mostly things like giving up a cc or giving up defensive abilities and/or running a secondary offensive bar with 2h. A nightblade running magelight, shadowy disguise, relentless focus, rally and stacking stamina and weapon damage (hence giving up regen) CAN still hit hard (and make everything crit). Versus anyone worth their weight in salt you will have to close to finish them.

I would love to prove you wrong on PTS.

Bow could be in the best place it's been in a long time (perhaps ever), Bow/Bow being perfectly viable even in duels with a fun unique playstyle.

Well, that'd be the case if not for addons that made it completely useless garbage when everyone can see your burst combos coming 1,1 seconds before they're even in the air.


It's funny how ZOS wastes time creating items like Asylum Bow & buffing skills like Crystal Blast when it's just a waste of time when API allows cheating.

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

It can be argued that snipe is only useful on potatoes. Sure, but it makes french fires out of them and it's makes them faster and crispier than most other options with less risk of counter attacks than any other setup. Many critical charge, ulti dump setups will kill someone quicker and with dodge roll and movement speed are going to get away. The difference is mostly in that you don't actually have to ulti dump to kill people, that and the simple fact that if you pick your targets wisely and kill them, you are back in stealth. The only thing that a snipe build (or build that has the option of snipe) has over others is the ability to kill without ultimate usage.

Not really, there are (and have been) plenty of builds that can kill without ultimate usage.

E.g. Dark Flare->Jav->jbeam on consoles where you can actually land it due to absence of exploitative addons.

I'd also say that about 50% of time I don't even need to use the Incap to kill people on my current melee stamblade - I'll have to analyze & get back to you with an exact number.

Jade1986

Publius_Scipio wrote: »

Only ZOS can draw the line in the sand and say what it or isn’t allowed in their game. So Miat (or any addon creator) isn’t “wrong” as long as ZOS is allowing it. Even if there is some real nasty addon that is private, if ZOS doesn’t take those scenarios into account and keeps the API wide open, no player can be right or wrong on the matter. Where I absolutely disagree with Miat or anyone who is for the addon, is where they say it’s not an advantage for a player using it.

The addon was created to be advantageous to use. You don’t create an addon that then is detrimental to use. The addon gives the player using it cues and increases reaction time in PvP combat. That by definition is an advantage over someone who doesn’t see those cues.

You can still say it is wrong if they don't say anything. I have said it before many times. The " its ok because it is legal or allowed " is not a winning argument. Apply it to real world situations and you will see how much of a falacy it is.

Dorrino

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I don't have to apologize to you for calling your add-on a bad name. I still stand behind it that it should never be allowed to exist even in its current form, and as for duels - I have no shortage of those either, the challenge is there for you, since you said you were bored and there's no challenges left for you anymore, which I find ridiculous.

Duels are not a challenge in this game. They are always the same and always rely on lining up burst damage and proper prediction and defense against said burst damage. Nothing creative happens in duels after you are comfortable with the above.

I understand that some still consider duels a challenge though. To each their own.

I had fun for a while with 1v4+, but even that became a chore at this point.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

So maybe there aren't any where you play, but where you play is just a small portion of the game's overall population so I find it amusing that you feel like that, hence the invitation to come and show me what you've got.

I have zero desire to show anybody what i got:) NA Vivec knows what i got. They don't have questions. The only reason i might agree is to help you behave as a decent human being. I find it amusing that you need such an elaborate method to do so, that's why there's a slight glimpse of interest in me there. But again, it's just because i find your attitude peculiar, duels themselves are quite boring for me.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

And the invitation is there also because you keep insisting that you'd do, or something would happen, without having any evidence to back it up, which is very arrogant and in my experience deserving of a nice beating session to sort that out. I happen to have a lot of experience with that and so I'm always there for you.

See above about your attitude. Your arrogance was so cute so i poked you for a bit:)

LegendaryMage wrote: »

You will get an apology from me when you cut off the in-advance notifications from your add-on. I don't care about your tests, I've played an archer build for a long time by now and I know that it's totally messed up and made useless here where I'm playing.

But why would we take your lack of pvp skill as a token for the state of snipe? I did that - it's fun and works, within the limits of snipe.

Did you expect snipe to be a universally effective spammable?:) An 'Africa range' hard hitting skill with auto major defile?:)
Did it ever come to you that if it was that effective that would make all melee stam skills irrelevant?

You, people, are so weird:)

LegendaryMage wrote: »

You need to apologize to me, and everyone else who can't fully enjoy their playstyle

I expressed my regrets multiple times. Along with a reassurement that any frustration you can experience was not my intention.

If you still struggle using snipe i can only recommend get more experience playing with it, i.e. to git gud.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

on a basis of having access to something that clearly should never have been allowed in a PVP environment.

This is clearly should be a part of default ZOS ui from the start. It's weird it isn't yet:)

LegendaryMage wrote: »

This says about you as a player a lot, and nothing good for that matter.

The thing that you keep bashing me tells a lot about yourself as a person, not even a player.

Being an opinionated irrational person rarely can be shared by other people, unless they happen to be the same as you are and have the same opinion.

LegendaryMage wrote: »

I am done with this discussion. The amount of people agreeing on the first post says it all. If you can't see that either, then that's sad.

It's sad that so many people struggle in pvp , but i'm sure indulging their lack of desire to learn to play cannot make this game any better. The skill level of people in pvp is usually very low, even compared to other mmos, thus the concept of 1vx in this game.

Don't forget to tell me again that you're done with me after your next reply:P

DDuke wrote: »

What do you know, there are still some people who don't use your addon.

I thought you didn't:) It's raw pvp experience. Integrated over people running the addon and not running it.

DDuke wrote: »

...and even if some those people did, they probably didn't bother blocking/dodging when they saw a noob run up to them and spam snipe outside of stealth

5 duels on pts and after you lose all 5 you come back here and properly apologize?:)

DDuke wrote: »

Just curious: were you "1vX'ing/1v1'ing", or sniping people already fighting others? I think I know the answer already but let's hear it.

All of those. Again raw experience. Otherwise it'd be biased.

1v1 and 1vx using only snipe are hard because it's interruptible and because you're slowed while casting it. But if snipe is used instead of poison injection - as a ranged spammable - it works quite good.

DDuke wrote: »

Yet you completely choose to ignore the fact that it has a bloody cast time (1.1s)

Really? Didn't notice the cast time in 1000 snipes:D

DDuke wrote: »

max range Snipes are not only far easier to dodge

65%-75% at max range. Doing that wrong?

DDuke wrote: »

, but also cannot be weaved with light attacks (meaning no Hawk Eye stacks)

It can. Just like ds can. La+channel.

DDuke wrote: »

or comboed with any other skills.

On a stamblade you can't combo it from range. That's true. Though it hits hard enough for this to be irrelevant.

Warden's birds can't be comboed from range as well:)

DDuke wrote: »

Your comparison of Snipe to Surprise Attack would be like comparing a weaker version of Wrecking Blow to Surprise Attack.

I'm comparing a spammable with a spammable. Could've compared to ds or silver bolts. Or birds, as in above.

DDuke wrote: »

Fact is, one would currently get more skills spamming Surprise Attack in melee range with a bow equipped than by spamming Snipe.

And that's awesome. Why would anyone use SA if it was otherwise?

DDuke wrote: »

So let me guess how your "test" went: you spammed snipe non-stop at people without utilizing any other skills that'd allow you to actually do so (cloak, snares, kiting, traps) then got interrupted and came to the conclusion that its only problem is it being interruptable?

You're projecting again:) Snipe spam worked just fine, unless crushing shock/melee bash interrupted it mid channel.

I.e. it worked good with this caveat that limits its 1v1 and 1vx usage.

DDuke wrote: »

The reason why its unusable (no, not "limited viability") in 1v1 (and everywhere else as long as even one person uses your addon) currently is the API & addons like yours.

Again i'm not sure why do you expect everybody else to be as incapable in pvp as you are?

DDuke wrote: »

If you think it's so viable, why don't you show me a recent 1vX video with bow being used as main weapon?

*patiently* because of the reasons outlined above it has limited 1v1 and 1vx usage.

DDuke wrote: »

How about a 1v1 tournament winner with a snipe slotted? Or even a semi-finalist in a tournament? ...even someone who won one fight in a tournament with bow as a main weapon?

*even more patiently* because of the reasons outlined above it has limited 1v1 and 1vx usage.

DDuke wrote: »

Or better yet, conduct an actual scientific experiment where the control group is using your addon, instead of random results from some random pug fight.

I'm sure you can do that yourself. I think you can manage:)

Jade1986

Dorrino wrote: »

snip

People that speak their minds, and who do not sugar coat their language are generally more trustworthy than people who are overly polite and passive aggressive. That is neither here nor there though. If you find it regrettable that people get aggressive toward you, you should probably stop egging them on.

Dorrino

laced wrote: »

People that speak their minds, and who do not sugar coat their language are generally more trustworthy than people who are overly polite and passive aggressive.

Trustworthy as in 'you can trust that they hate you'?:) Probably.

But while doing so, they turn the whole environment into a fight, instead of a rational discussion.

You don't need to invent elaborate ways to express your disgust. You can just say that you experience it. That's enough.

And you, and some other people in the thread did that. You're heard. You don't like the addon.

What would you want to do next? Keep hating and expressing this hate over and over and over? What for? You're been heard first time you said it. And the second. Etc.

Why keep expressing it? What new message it supposed to convey?

Sugar-coating exists for the reason to get out of this constant hate. You sugar coat to help the other people to listen to you. To find a shared context.

I could've easily said that you're a bunch of low skill crybabies, and while being true would it help the discussion between us in any imaginable way? Would you trust me more?

I think not, and that's why i feel for your struggles and express my compassion instead.

laced wrote: »

That is neither here nor there though. If you find it regrettable that people get aggressive toward you, you should probably stop egging them on.

Trust me, i'm not trying to provoke anybody. It's not just boring and pointless. It's counter-productive.

LegendaryMage

@Dorrino stop tagging me dude, you're a hopeless little player that couldn't handle getting outplayed in PVP and therefore had to level out the playing field by developing the most idiotic add-on of all times, taking advantage of something that should have never been possible in the first place. That's all that's going on here, there's nothing more to it.

As for you being some kind of a superman player with no challenges left, sit down and be quiet before you get packed please. You have no clue how funny you sound to me with your braggadocio.

edit; Now stop tagging/quoting me, I don't want to see a single more notification from you. Understood? Good.