Zenimax, Restrict Your API!!!
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kyle.wilson✭✭✭✭✭
✭I think that people are too focused on 1 addon, and not the fact that ZOS allows this in game.
I guarentee that there are more addons that are being spread privetly that are far worse.
I think the best course of action is to, fill every ZOS employee's inbox with your suggestions on what the API allows.
Start with @ZOS_MattFiror.
I still dont understand how this thread wasn't shut down yesterday, cosidering the warnings I've received for far less.1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Read my last post in here - i think it´s more important.
BTW i wish i could make videos. Just today playing from 11am to 1pm i´ve had 13 different occasions where snipes hit me because the soundcue played after i got stunned and the snipe + sound hit me in breakfree animation (no lightattack hit prior to that atleast to combatlog). I got stunned before the arrow soundcue happened (meaning no string release sound happend at all for me) and there were no other players around.
It´s a behavior that i have consistently happen with snipe. Due to the time i played it can´t really be attributed to lag aswell.
I have no idea why it happens and i have no idea how to reproduce it. I know it´s not working as intended as it´s different in duels where i can clearly hear and dodge snipes - but i also always hear the arrow release sound of the string there regardless of range.
My guess is that is has something to due with bugged sound/effect culling when there is other stuff happening in the general area of cyrodiil.
Yes i deactivated the soundcue from the addon and i made a tally for that because i´m that old.
And I'll gladly support any thread you make regarding snipe sound cue. I've personally never (since 2014) had problems with it, but I'll take your word for it that some other people might.
However, with or without this addon (and similar ones), are bow & other cast time builds making PvP unplayable for your build? Rhetorical question, since you just wrote you played PvP from 11am to 1pm & I know you still spend time in Cyrodiil (I don't, bored of playing same build for years & being unable to try out different playstyles that interest me, i.e. bow builds)
That's kind of the point I'm getting at: you still get to play PvP - cast time builds don't (atleast if they like winning).
For me, the course of action ZOS needs to take is crystal clear: get rid of these API functions posthaste, asap, immediately & then work on those sound cues that are bugged(?) for some people.kyle.wilson wrote: »I think that people are too focused on 1 addon, and not the fact that ZOS allows this in game.
I guarentee that there are more addons that are being spread privetly that are far worse.
I think the best course of action is to, fill every ZOS employee's inbox with your suggestions on what the API allows.
Start with @ZOS_MattFiror.
I still dont understand how this thread wasn't shut down yesterday, cosidering the warnings I've received for far less.
It's cool now, "the best stamblade NA" is sleeping & we can discuss the actual topic and listen to different opinions.
I did title this thread specifically "Restrict Your API" because I didn't want to single out any particular addon - the creator of the most popular "combat alert" one out there starting to argue with people here of course drew attention to that addon, unfortunately.Edited by DDuke on October 7, 2017 1:24PM2 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
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@Dorrino alright then bud, I've said everything I had to say, if you'd like to give yourself a few runs with me any time, go on PTS I'll be spending some time there nowadays, so add me when you're around @LegendaryMage and we'll have some fun.
@Derra I've reviewed the functions of the add-on carefully, both on text and in practice (not on my machine though, but on another), and as I said there is good stuff in it, and even stuff that should be a part of the game officially.
But the functions that I don't like (even in its current form) are just too much for me to even consider installing it, let alone previous versions with even more questionable functionality.
With that being said, I personally never used combat add-ons in ESO, I feel like they're not helping me at all in most of situations, but this one really messes up my archer setup, I'm tired of players dodging like pros before they even have a clue what's going on.
That my friend, should not be possible at all.
I would go as far as to say, that ANY 3rd party additional notifications for incoming attacks shouldn't be possible at all - and if I'm wrong, do correct me, but I don't see anything remotely possible within the game's native UI. And for a reason.
In fact, even the auto-music-play when combat starts should be looked into in my opinion.
If they want combat to be better and different than most other stale MMOs out there, then it should not work like most other MMOs out there that depend on auto attacks, notifications gallore and so on. But that's just me.6 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
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A person who is unhappy about something is much more likely to be vocal about it - so you get an overwhelmingly negative feedback because the persons that are content with how things are with miats will probably not bother to post in the first place - also due to the animosity or downright hostility and insults they would have to face for their opinion.
It´s in human nature to interpret information in a way it favor their personal pov.
Ultimately it´s on ZOS to give a definitive stance on this addon and they´re the only instance that can resolve the issue.
Sadly having almost a year of inaction makes it look like there is simply no need for them to take action in the current state of affairs.
Compare it to proccsets - something that got equally negative feedback on the forums as miats did/does and has been around about a month longer.
It also had only implications on pvp encounters. Proccsets got adjusted multiple times by now due to this pvp specific feedback.
Edit: On top of that - IF someone at ZOS had decided the addon was fine as is. Would you dare posting that on the forums given the responses to expected? I wouldn´t probably.
If they flat out came out and said they think it is ok, I would drop the game in a heartbeat. And I am sure I am not alone.4 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭LegendaryMage wrote: »
@Dorrino alright then bud, I've said everything I had to say, if you'd like to give yourself a few runs with me any time, go on PTS I'll be spending some time there nowadays, so add me when you're around @LegendaryMage and we'll have some fun.
@Derra I've reviewed the functions of the add-on carefully, both on text and in practice (not on my machine though, but on another), and as I said there is good stuff in it, and even stuff that should be a part of the game officially.
But the functions that I don't like (even in its current form) are just too much for me to even consider installing it, let alone previous versions with even more questionable functionality.
With that being said, I personally never used combat add-ons in ESO, I feel like they're not helping me at all in most of situations, but this one really messes up my archer setup, I'm tired of players dodging like pros before they even have a clue what's going on.
That my friend, should not be possible at all.
I would go as far as to say, that ANY 3rd party additional notifications for incoming attacks shouldn't be possible at all - and if I'm wrong, do correct me, but I don't see anything remotely possible within the game's native UI. And for a reason.
In fact, even the auto-music-play when combat starts should be looked into in my opinion.
If they want combat to be better and different than most other stale MMOs out there, then it should not work like most other MMOs out there that depend on auto attacks, notifications gallore and so on. But that's just me.
It's not just you. All three of my pvp guilds say the same thing. And we have discussed this in length. All three have between 150-400 active players. The general consensus is the addon would be fine if it werent for the cheat timers. You would literally see the toxicity over the add on disappear over night if these types of things were not allowed in the game. ZoS wouldnt even have to edit the API, they could make it clear that such things are not allowed through the TOS.Edited by Jade1986 on October 7, 2017 3:03PM0 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭It's not just the forums, Cyrodiil & most of the player base that hates the API functions, here's a reddit post from 7 months ago:
https://www.reddit.com/r/elderscrollsonline/comments/5yqw9k/miats_pvp_alerts_is_back_and_its_just_a_cheaty_as/
Look at the comments.. lol.
Mind-boggling how this is still allowed.
Granted, ZOS isn't known for fixing things quickly... but it's been over half a year and this is much, much more harmful to the game than things like Sharpened Maces or Double Mundus exploits were back in the days (which also took a long time to fix).2 -
Murador178✭✭✭✭LegendaryMage wrote: »
All I'm telling you is, I've got tells and whispers of so many players claiming to be 'the best' at whatever and so far not one has proven that they're (at most) slightly above average.
Now, if that's the case, why should you be any different? If you want a challenge, come to PC EU Alikr where I've set up duels that are going on almost 24/7 and see for yourself just how 'best' you are at anything, including dueling.
I don't think, I guarantee you, you will be in for a surprise. I fought plenty of NA players over the years and infinitely more EU ones and I can tell you from first hand experience, that the metas are different on the servers and you will absolutely, under no circumstance, even have a chance with a medium build against anyone who's been dueling for awhile now. Not stamblade, not dk, not stamplar, not stamden, not whatever, you will need to up your game a lot more to take down some of the builds that lurk around there.
That's not to say you're not a good player, it's to say that there's so much more that you haven't even experienced and to assume that you're 'the best at anything' is not doing yourself a favor at all.
There's your challenge if you're bored.
As for me, I'll be there (PC EU Alikr) too. I barely play ESO nowadays but I'm always up for a fight so it will be my pleasure to show you around.
@Ragnaroek93 medium armor stamblade, what's the prediction in this current meta? I'd say almost no chance against anyone competent in light/heavy. What say you.
Now enough of this ego talk, we're here to talk about questionable ZOS in-game policies and what should and shouldn't be allowed.
As for me, I might come off as blunt and too direct sometimes but time is limited and I got no time to sugar coat anything I don't like. I don't like some of the features of your add-on and I hope that ZOS will eliminate it altogether over time. I also understand that you've invested time and effort into creating something that you like, but as always - there are certain things you've got wrong and if you don't want to eliminate them, someone else will have to.
I'm still winning some fights on medium, but why even bother.... But from watching the NA tournament, that Kodi organized, I'd say NA players are doing duels right. They fight in normal openworld builds. So still most (if not all) would have no chance against one of the EU duel builds. I wish we would go back to fighting with normal builds....1 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
✭Murador178 wrote: »
I'm still winning some fights on medium, but why even bother.... But from watching the NA tournament, that Kodi organized, I'd say NA players are doing duels right. They fight in normal openworld builds. So still most (if not all) would have no chance against one of the EU duel builds. I wish we would go back to fighting with normal builds....
It's not happening bud, the only thing that can save the dueling world in ESO is if armors and abilities are better balanced. Until then, it will be a mess as it has been for the last year or so.
The funny thing is, they just need to edit a few sets and values here and there and this game would be 500% more balanced than it is now. And not just for dueling, but for bigger fights too. I for one, will be happy to see the heavy meta toned down for starters.
It's not just you. All three of my pvp guilds say the same thing. And we have discussed this in length. All three have between 150-400 active players. The general consensus is the addon would be fine if it werent for the cheat timers. You would literally see the toxicity over the add on disappear over night if these types of things were not allowed in the game. ZoS wouldnt even have to edit the API, they could make it clear that such things are not allowed through the TOS.
Yep, same here. I've been running a 200, 300, 400, 500 member guild for over 2 years now (I'm reducing it in size nowadays because I feel like 500 people is way too much) and I am 99% confident that most of my guild members feel the same.2 -
Publius_Scipio✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Murador178 wrote: »
I'm still winning some fights on medium, but why even bother.... But from watching the NA tournament, that Kodi organized, I'd say NA players are doing duels right. They fight in normal openworld builds. So still most (if not all) would have no chance against one of the EU duel builds. I wish we would go back to fighting with normal builds....
We will see if the coming armor skill line changes will get the ball rolling on balancing the armor weight choices out more.0 -
Nifty2g✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭See that ZOS replied to this thread only to see that it is deleted posts.
Let down#MOREORBS5 -
Zer0oo✭✭✭✭✭
✭Best popcorn thread since a long time.
The pvp forum is so dead since they made pvp with every update more and more unplayable.
- Update 23Ice Furnace: This item set now grants Spell Damage, rather than Weapon Damage for the 4 piece bonus0 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Publius_Scipio wrote: »
We will see if the coming armor skill line changes will get the ball rolling on balancing the armor weight choices out more.
I honestly dont think so, i mean, it all went downhill when they turned HA into a pvp dps armor instead of the tank armor it is supposed to be.2 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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I honestly dont think so, i mean, it all went downhill when they turned HA into a pvp dps armor instead of the tank armor it is supposed to be.
Well, I have a pretty clear (but different) opinion of that:
I think Heavy Armor dealing a lot of damage (even as much as medium) is fine. It allows players to play the "warrior" archetype present in other MMORPGs.
The only problem is that the "warrior" archetype is currently much, much more viable than the medium armor wearing "rogue" one.
Should the heavy armor user mitigate more damage? Yeah. Deal equal damage? Yeah. Survive better in general? No.
Medium needs its own way of surviving that isn't mitigation (like heavy armor), that's all imo - we'll see how the Shuffle change affects that.
That said, while we're talking of archetypes there's one pretty big one that's completely unplayable: "archer" - and it never will be playable & enjoyable on PC PvP until the API is fixed and I think this is a pretty important point to bring forth.
I mean, just as no one should be able to tell us "you shouldn't play an archer because I don't like it" (let alone create an addon & make that scenario a reality) we shouldn't say "you shouldn't play a warrior because I don't like it", or demand changes that'd make it an impossibility.Edited by DDuke on October 7, 2017 4:41PM3 -
LegendaryMage✭✭✭✭✭
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Well, I have a pretty clear (but different) opinion of that:
I think Heavy Armor dealing a lot of damage (even as much as medium) is fine. It allows players to play the "warrior" archetype present in other MMORPGs.
The only problem is that the "warrior" archetype is currently much, much more viable than the medium armor wearing "rogue" one.
Should the heavy armor user mitigate more damage? Yeah. Deal equal damage? Yeah. Survive better in general? No.
Medium needs its own way of surviving that isn't mitigation (like heavy armor), that's all imo - we'll see how the Shuffle change affects that.
That said, while we're talking of archetypes there's one pretty big one that's completely unplayable: "archer" - and it never will be playable & enjoyable on PC PvP until the API is fixed and I think this is a pretty important point to bring forth.
I mean, just as no one should be able to tell us "you shouldn't play an archer because I don't like it" (let alone create an addon & make that scenario a reality) we shouldn't say "you shouldn't play a warrior because I don't like it", or demand changes that'd make it an impossibility.
Yeah but it's not just the archer build(s) that are affected now, it's anyone being in the right situation trying to do 'something' while the other player has a heads-up add-on info displayed on their screen, knowing that something is coming to them even if the other person should be in an advantageous position (ex, trying to frag someone from behind, or any other ranged channeled ability for that matter).
This is my biggest critique for ZOS's API, it should not be feeding this type of info in PVP at least.
edit; I've been chasing around players who use this add-on and it's incredible how much PVP advantage they have with it, knowing exactly when to dodge or block to negate your hard hitters. This is not something an add-on should help with.
Besides, I still got those 'tutorials' enabled and I never see any of that stuff telling me to block and dodge, I don't even know what it does tbh. Edited by LegendaryMage on October 7, 2017 5:33PM3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyone one loses to is a cheater/exploiter/hacker anyway. That way everyone feels better.
The discussion is hilarious. ESO is not a competitive game. Not by a lightyear.Edited by Feanor on October 7, 2017 7:15PMMain characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:All chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.SpoilerNecrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar1 -
Ackwalan✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Just imagine what add-on is out there that are not public. It's the bear you don't that you need to worry about.3 -
Feanor✭✭✭✭✭
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There is a reason for that....
It is actually much more competitive on console.
Yeah the reason is that outside 1v1 you can't talk about actual skill anyway just because the combat system is what it is. It had nothing to do with addons or anything. The game is not designed to be competitive, because it's main target audience is casuals.Main characters: Feanor the Believer - AD Altmer mSorc - AR 50 - Flawless Conqueror (PC EU)Idril Arnanor - AD Altmer mSorc - CP 217 - Stormproof (PC NA)Other characters:All chars 50 @ CP 1900+. Playing and enjoying PvP with RdK mostly on PC EU.SpoilerNecrophilius Killgood - DC Imperial NecromancerFearscales - AD Argonian Templar - Stormproof (healer)Draco Imperialis - AD Imperial DK (tank)Cabed Naearamarth - AD Dunmer mDKValirion Willowthorne - AD Bosmer stamBladeTuruna - AD Altmer magBladeKheled Zaram - AD Redguard stamDKKibil Nala - AD Redguard stamSorc - StormproofYavanna Kémentárí - AD Breton magWardenAzog gro-Ghâsh - EP Orc stamWardenVidar Drakenblød - DC Nord mDKMarquis de Peyrac - DC Breton mSorc - StormproofRawlith Khaj'ra - AD Khajiit stamWardenTu'waccah - AD Redguard Stamplar1 -
DDuke✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah the reason is that outside 1v1 you can't talk about actual skill anyway just because the combat system is what it is. It had nothing to do with addons or anything. The game is not designed to be competitive, because it's main target audience is casuals.
In other news: water is wet.
I don't know how the game's competitiveness relates to the discussion at hand, but what I can tell you is that the less competitive it gets, the less twitch streamers & youtubers (and views on both platforms) this game has.
You can actually see this trend if you look at recent videos, or browse twitch to find ESO.
That's never good for a game, no matter who you design it for.Edited by DDuke on October 7, 2017 8:27PM3 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Everyone one loses to is a cheater/exploiter/hacker anyway. That way everyone feels better.
The discussion is hilarious. ESO is not a competitive game. Not by a lightyear.
I don't think it ever was meant to be competitive or hardcore. That doesn't mean it can't be fun.
Feeling pressured to use an add-on that tells your opponent to get out of the way of an attack they can't see is not the way to go IMHO, but that's probably Matt Frior's call.3 -
KingMagaw✭✭✭✭✭
✭Any chance of ZoS replying on this thread or they just waiting until everyone quits:
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror - At least show the minimum interest in your game.4 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭
Yeah the reason is that outside 1v1 you can't talk about actual skill anyway just because the combat system is what it is. It had nothing to do with addons or anything. The game is not designed to be competitive, because it's main target audience is casuals.
Another excellent cop out. You can actually see him rationalizing it word by word.
not competitive must mean it's ok to cheat....amirite?3 -
Jade1986✭✭✭✭✭
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Yeah the reason is that outside 1v1 you can't talk about actual skill anyway just because the combat system is what it is. It had nothing to do with addons or anything. The game is not designed to be competitive, because it's main target audience is casuals.
But it does have something to do with add ons. If there were no add ons and it were a level playing field it would be a lot more, or at least could be competitive. As is now, there would have to be a round table meeting on which add ons would be allowed, and then there would have to be someone to monitor all add ons being used somehow by everyone.
This is off topic though, but I have to add that ZoS stated at beta that add ons that would give another player a palpable combat advantage, that would put players that do not use the add on at a disadvantage, would not be allowed. Yet that clearly was ignored to the umpteenth deggree.Edited by Jade1986 on October 7, 2017 11:53PM3 -
![[Deleted User]](https://us.v-cdn.net/5020507/uploads/06301530861bfae62d56b72eef4ac33d.png)
[Deleted User]Soul ShrivenHello everyone,
Recently we've had to remove a few posts for becoming far too heated. Keep in mind that flaming is against the Forum Rules, as it never leads anywhere good for a thread. We understand there will be several points in this topic that many will not agree on, but we ask that you stay constructive and respectful when arguing these points.
Thank you for understanding.2 -
Dredlord✭✭✭✭✭Any chance of ZoS replying on this thread or they just waiting until everyone quits:
@ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror - At least show the minimum interest in your game.
and to be absolutely crystal clear (sans heat) @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror
The reason the API needs changes in PVP is so it does not provide the information that can be used by an addon, script or third party program to block, dodge, invis, heal, shield, break free based on preset resource thresholds and the type of attack incoming, all automatically.1 -
kyle.wilson✭✭✭✭✭
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and to be absolutely crystal clear (sans heat) @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @ZOS_MattFiror
The reason the API needs changes in PVP is so it does not provide the information that can be used by an addon, script or third party program to block, dodge, invis, heal, shield, break free based on preset resource thresholds and the type of attack incoming, all automatically.
Message them directly, I think the only people reading these posts are the mods.
Then again, Matt Firor cannot even be bothered to check on his forum.
Edited by kyle.wilson on October 8, 2017 1:00AM3 -
Dorrino✭✭✭✭✭Ok, since some people were quite persistent at claiming that most people run the addon and in the result snipe became non-viable as a main spam ability (i.e. hit chance is abysmally low) i decided to make an experiment.
I slotted snipe and used it almost exclusively as a main damage spammable.
Conditions:
1. I didn't snipe from cloak/invisibility to obtain the lowest value on snipe hit percentage (i'm always visible).
2. I counted unblocked and undodged hits, i.e. hits that target didn't react to even if he got the notification.
3. Blocked, dodged, cloaked and otherwise missed snipe casts were considered a miss.
4. I didn't stick to a particular location and to particular set of players.
5. The test lasted about 3 hours.
Results:
Total number of snipes - 1015.
Total number of hits - 713.
Hit percentage - 70.24%
Given that snipe tooltip (bow bar) is about 38% higher than surprise attack (2h gs bar), the 70% hit chance makes it a noticeably more effective spammable damage-wise along with almost perfect safety of the player at snipes max range.
The only weak place of snipe that found is that its channel is interruptible. Otherwise it would be a great alternative to dizzying swing even at melee distance.
Generally i enjoyed this experience, even though in its current state snipe has limited viability in 1v1 situations (mostly because how easy it is to interrupt it).LegendaryMage wrote: »@Dorrino alright then bud, I've said everything I had to say, if you'd like to give yourself a few runs with me any time, go on PTS I'll be spending some time there nowadays, so add me when you're around @LegendaryMage and we'll have some fun.
Since you refuse to conduct a conversation until i demonstrate you your lack of pvp skills, i'd indulge you after a proper apology on the forums for you offensive attitude towards me.Edited by Dorrino on October 8, 2017 3:56AM2 -
Rohamad_Ali✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Ok, since some people were quite persistent at claiming that most people run the addon and in the result snipe became non-viable as a main spam ability (i.e. hit chance is abysmally low) i decided to make an experiment.
I slotted snipe and used it almost exclusively as a main damage spammable.
Conditions:
1. I didn't snipe from cloak/invisibility to obtain the lowest value on snipe hit percentage (i'm always visible).
2. I counted unblocked and undodged hits, i.e. hits that target didn't react to even if he got the notification.
3. Blocked, dodged, cloaked and otherwise missed snipe casts were considered a miss.
4. I didn't stick to a particular location and to particular set of players.
5. The test lasted about 3 hours.
Results:
Total number of snipes - 1015.
Total number of hits - 713.
Hit percentage - 70.24%
Given that snipe tooltip (bow bar) is about 38% higher than surprise attack (2h gs bar), the 70% hit chance makes it a noticeably more effective spammable damage-wise along with almost perfect safety of the player at snipes max range.
The only weak place of snipe that found is that its channel is interruptible. Otherwise it would be a great alternative to dizzying swing even at melee distance.
Generally i enjoyed this experience, even though in its current state snipe has limited viability in 1v1 situations (mostly because how easy it is to interrupt it).
Since you refuse to conduct a conversation until i demonstrate you your lack of pvp skills, i'd indulge you after a proper apology on the forums for you offensive attitude towards me.
Interesting results . Were all these snipe attacks done on different players or are they a combination different targets but some on the same target or even a lot on the same targets ? Just curious as to how uncontrolled the test results are .
I just had another thought . Don't you have access to the number of people that run your addon or just the amount of people that downloaded it ? If we knew those numbers while testing snipe on different targets then we would learn not just how many people running the addon but also how many running the feature that tells when to dodge . Those results would then show a small section of the effects of the addon against players using snipe .0
This discussion has been closed.