PTS Update 16 - Feedback Thread for Dragonknights

Kilandros

Minno wrote: »

So petrify now cannot be cast on cc immunity targets?

Did I read that right?

I didn't think it ever could. This may just have been a fix to a bug introduced this PTS.

ak_pvp

We got effectively nothing again. It'd be great if they fixed wings to include more projectiles and reflect the status effects.

@ZOS_Wrobel Read this thread. Read my summary thread. The other 2 threads abut stonefist/petrify. Act.

NBrookus

Minno wrote: »

So petrify now cannot be cast on cc immunity targets?

Did I read that right?

It wouldn't work on the target anyway, unless CC immunity was bugging out (nah, that never happens). Pretty sure all they are doing is not charging you the cost of magicka for spamming it on a CC immune target. If so, that's bad design IMO, because it discourages paying attention and using the skill appropriately.

NBrookus

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

RNG chance to reflect means not using it.

I'm fine with reworking Wings, but if I can't reflect an incoming projectile when I need to... why would I use that skill?

Minno

NBrookus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

So petrify now cannot be cast on cc immunity targets?

Did I read that right?

It wouldn't work on the target anyway, unless CC immunity was bugging out (nah, that never happens). Pretty sure all they are doing is not charging you the cost of magicka for spamming it on a CC immune target. If so, that's bad design IMO, because it discourages paying attention and using the skill appropriately.

Ah ok. It suffered from the same terrible bug as templars eclipse.

That's good in a way; no more useless mag drain.

NBrookus

Minno wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

So petrify now cannot be cast on cc immunity targets?

Did I read that right?

It wouldn't work on the target anyway, unless CC immunity was bugging out (nah, that never happens). Pretty sure all they are doing is not charging you the cost of magicka for spamming it on a CC immune target. If so, that's bad design IMO, because it discourages paying attention and using the skill appropriately.

Ah ok. It suffered from the same terrible bug as templars eclipse.

That's good in a way; no more useless mag drain.

Well I disagree, it's not useless to drain magicka if you are spamming a skill that has a clear visible tell that it won't work on the target. For all the supposed focus on resource management the past few updates, why remove the active component of resource management?

dirtykdx

Minno wrote: »

So petrify now cannot be cast on cc immunity targets?

Did I read that right?

Yeah, it's a roundabout way to buff sustain if you ask me. But, sorcs also got it.

krathos

Well.This is depressing but not unexpected.

beetleklee

Wasn't expecting anything, and got just that.

krathos

It's clear nobody at ZOS plays DK, mag or stam, and they clearly don't understand the mechanics of the class. This class has no direction. ZOS doesn't know what to do with it.

Toc de Malsvi

Kilandros wrote: »

Minno wrote: »

So petrify now cannot be cast on cc immunity targets?

Did I read that right?

I didn't think it ever could. This may just have been a fix to a bug introduced this PTS.

It could on console, double CC happens, but it happened much more with petrify than anything else in my experience. I would break free lose stam and then be immediately stunned again.

Toc de Malsvi

NBrookus wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

RNG chance to reflect means not using it.

I'm fine with reworking Wings, but if I can't reflect an incoming projectile when I need to... what would I use that skill?

The same reason anyone uses Shuffle/Blur. It's a long lasting defensive bonus, it would give you mobility based on the changes I suggested.

krathos

Joy_Division

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wings is too strong against projectiles even in its current form. Mag Dk with wings can lock out mag NB and bow attacks. It isnt strong against several projectile based attack sources. But it is ridiculous one on one.

It needs a buff from another angle, ie Major/Minor buffs for longer duration.

I good change for wings would be Major Expedition for 5-6 seconds. Plus perhaps some sort of hop effect like dragon leap but without the damage on landing.

I would like to see wings buffed, but in a way that doesnt completely lock down ranged builds.

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

Isn't this RNG based result the sort of game-play we like to discourage rather than enable? I'd rather not lose a fight because RNG dictated this projectile would be redirected to my face but the previous 5 did not.

Just because something is unknown or a risk doesn't necessarily make it more exciting or encourage play-counterplay.

krathos

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wings is too strong against projectiles even in its current form. Mag Dk with wings can lock out mag NB and bow attacks. It isnt strong against several projectile based attack sources. But it is ridiculous one on one.

It needs a buff from another angle, ie Major/Minor buffs for longer duration.

I good change for wings would be Major Expedition for 5-6 seconds. Plus perhaps some sort of hop effect like dragon leap but without the damage on landing.

I would like to see wings buffed, but in a way that doesnt completely lock down ranged builds.

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

Isn't this RNG based result the sort of game-play we like to discourage rather than enable? I'd rather not lose a fight because RNG dictated this projectile would be redirected to my face but the previous 5 did not.

Just because something is unknown or a risk doesn't necessarily make it more exciting or encourage play-counterplay.

i think all combat should be down to just chance. they should take out active abilities and the moment you hover over your opponent you have a 50/50 chance of killing them or dying yourself. Sorc and NB will of course have a passive that gives increased 25% chance to kill their opponent.

Toc de Malsvi

krathos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wings is too strong against projectiles even in its current form. Mag Dk with wings can lock out mag NB and bow attacks. It isnt strong against several projectile based attack sources. But it is ridiculous one on one.

It needs a buff from another angle, ie Major/Minor buffs for longer duration.

I good change for wings would be Major Expedition for 5-6 seconds. Plus perhaps some sort of hop effect like dragon leap but without the damage on landing.

I would like to see wings buffed, but in a way that doesnt completely lock down ranged builds.

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

Isn't this RNG based result the sort of game-play we like to discourage rather than enable? I'd rather not lose a fight because RNG dictated this projectile would be redirected to my face but the previous 5 did not.

Just because something is unknown or a risk doesn't necessarily make it more exciting or encourage play-counterplay.

i think all combat should be down to just chance. they should take out active abilities and the moment you hover over your opponent you have a 50/50 chance of killing them or dying yourself. Sorc and NB will of course have a passive that gives increased 25% chance to kill their opponent.

Why not have an auto win setup then? Just setup a rock-paper-scissors. Dk beats NB, NB beats Sorc, Sorc beats Warden, Warden beats Templar, Templar beats DK. That way there is no chance involved.

I get that people dont like chance based effects. I was throwing out an idea, one that fits within the scheme of what they already do. Also one that is much stronger in general compared to the current option.

I like the idea for damage reduction from projectiles. I dont like the idea of 100% reflect, just like I dont like the idea of purging DoTs with no consequence.

I mean I may be biased towards bow characters. But it is not as if bow builds are destroying Mag DKs. Nor are Mag NBs the bane of mag DKs. Wings as fully reflect disproportionately affects specific builds and does nothing to help DKs against the other builds out there. It also offers nothing for group utility.

eroticdiscoheat

@ZOS_Wrobel This thread is what getting *** looks like.

I hope you like what you did to DK.

Toc de Malsvi

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wings is too strong against projectiles even in its current form. Mag Dk with wings can lock out mag NB and bow attacks. It isnt strong against several projectile based attack sources. But it is ridiculous one on one.

It needs a buff from another angle, ie Major/Minor buffs for longer duration.

I good change for wings would be Major Expedition for 5-6 seconds. Plus perhaps some sort of hop effect like dragon leap but without the damage on landing.

I would like to see wings buffed, but in a way that doesnt completely lock down ranged builds.

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

Isn't this RNG based result the sort of game-play we like to discourage rather than enable? I'd rather not lose a fight because RNG dictated this projectile would be redirected to my face but the previous 5 did not.

Just because something is unknown or a risk doesn't necessarily make it more exciting or encourage play-counterplay.

I would like my: "if you attempt to apply a dot to me you take damage instead" skill.

Or how about a: "if you try and damage me with a 'melee' attack you take damage".

There isnt counter play to wings. There is only complete avoidance.

Projectiles are already the most easily mitigated form of damage. You can see and hear them coming, you can block/dodge/absorb/heal/los the damage. Projectiles are also a minority of skills that disproportionately effect specific classes and weapons.

It is not as if bows are out there ruling cyrodiil. Bows are hardly lethal to any decent player, so the argument for wings reflecting more I find very wanting.

Wings needs to have more utility and that doesnt need to come from more reflections.

krathos

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wings is too strong against projectiles even in its current form. Mag Dk with wings can lock out mag NB and bow attacks. It isnt strong against several projectile based attack sources. But it is ridiculous one on one.

It needs a buff from another angle, ie Major/Minor buffs for longer duration.

I good change for wings would be Major Expedition for 5-6 seconds. Plus perhaps some sort of hop effect like dragon leap but without the damage on landing.

I would like to see wings buffed, but in a way that doesnt completely lock down ranged builds.

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

Isn't this RNG based result the sort of game-play we like to discourage rather than enable? I'd rather not lose a fight because RNG dictated this projectile would be redirected to my face but the previous 5 did not.

Just because something is unknown or a risk doesn't necessarily make it more exciting or encourage play-counterplay.

i think all combat should be down to just chance. they should take out active abilities and the moment you hover over your opponent you have a 50/50 chance of killing them or dying yourself. Sorc and NB will of course have a passive that gives increased 25% chance to kill their opponent.

Why not have an auto win setup then? Just setup a rock-paper-scissors. Dk beats NB, NB beats Sorc, Sorc beats Warden, Warden beats Templar, Templar beats DK. That way there is no chance involved.

I get that people dont like chance based effects. I was throwing out an idea, one that fits within the scheme of what they already do. Also one that is much stronger in general compared to the current option.

I like the idea for damage reduction from projectiles. I dont like the idea of 100% reflect, just like I dont like the idea of purging DoTs with no consequence.

I mean I may be biased towards bow characters. But it is not as if bow builds are destroying Mag DKs. Nor are Mag NBs the bane of mag DKs. Wings as fully reflect disproportionately affects specific builds and does nothing to help DKs against the other builds out there. It also offers nothing for group utility.

DKs rarely run wings tho because:
1) it's expensive af
2) it's unreliable and i often get fragged right through it
3) it gets mostly absorbed by light attacks
4) we don't have space on our bar due to extremely 1 dimensional skills.

Toc de Malsvi

krathos wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Toc de Malsvi wrote: »

Wings is too strong against projectiles even in its current form. Mag Dk with wings can lock out mag NB and bow attacks. It isnt strong against several projectile based attack sources. But it is ridiculous one on one.

It needs a buff from another angle, ie Major/Minor buffs for longer duration.

I good change for wings would be Major Expedition for 5-6 seconds. Plus perhaps some sort of hop effect like dragon leap but without the damage on landing.

I would like to see wings buffed, but in a way that doesnt completely lock down ranged builds.

A more powerful and useful version of wings would immulate shuffle. Say 20s of 15% chance to reflect, with 20s of minor expedition and 5 seconds major on cast.

Random chance reflects mean you cant lock down certain builds. But they are also more dangerous in general because opponents dont know what is or isnt going to be reflected. Thus they cannot effectly predict when to dodge/block.

Isn't this RNG based result the sort of game-play we like to discourage rather than enable? I'd rather not lose a fight because RNG dictated this projectile would be redirected to my face but the previous 5 did not.

Just because something is unknown or a risk doesn't necessarily make it more exciting or encourage play-counterplay.

i think all combat should be down to just chance. they should take out active abilities and the moment you hover over your opponent you have a 50/50 chance of killing them or dying yourself. Sorc and NB will of course have a passive that gives increased 25% chance to kill their opponent.

Why not have an auto win setup then? Just setup a rock-paper-scissors. Dk beats NB, NB beats Sorc, Sorc beats Warden, Warden beats Templar, Templar beats DK. That way there is no chance involved.

I get that people dont like chance based effects. I was throwing out an idea, one that fits within the scheme of what they already do. Also one that is much stronger in general compared to the current option.

I like the idea for damage reduction from projectiles. I dont like the idea of 100% reflect, just like I dont like the idea of purging DoTs with no consequence.

I mean I may be biased towards bow characters. But it is not as if bow builds are destroying Mag DKs. Nor are Mag NBs the bane of mag DKs. Wings as fully reflect disproportionately affects specific builds and does nothing to help DKs against the other builds out there. It also offers nothing for group utility.

DKs rarely run wings tho because:
1) it's expensive af
2) it's unreliable and i often get fragged right through it
3) it gets mostly absorbed by light attacks
4) we don't have space on our bar due to extremely 1 dimensional skills.

Right, which is where increasing its duration to 20s greatly eases cost. Adding mobility or other benefits greatly increases desireability. Unreliability will never ultimately change as thats just a ZOS thing. Having multiple effects, ie reflect chance + mobility means its multidimensional.

Kilandros

Solution: Change Wings to be an AoE Missile Dampening for yourself and nearby allies that reduces the damage of ranged attacks by 35%.

NBrookus

I realize you are coming from this from an archer point of view. So the sheer number of other skills that can't be reflected or the number of times wings bugs out and doesn't reflect anything for the cost of 3400 magicka is not on your radar the way it is on a DKs.

Bow builds are about the only thing Wings actually shuts down defensively, and there's about zero chance a mDK getting sniped from max range has of actually catching that player anyway.

The fact that 99% of bow builds in Cyrodiil are reduced to glass cannon NB snipers that can cloak away at the slightest danger you might get near them, and will wait until you are already under pressure from multiple opponents before attacking is an issue that needs to be addressed separately, not by nerfing DKs one defense against them.

Maulkin

There's two buffs on this patch, what's the complain about? Because not enough buffs?

krathos

Maulkin wrote: »

There's two buffs on this patch, what's the complain about? Because not enough buffs?

Because there's 2 buffs, which are absolute crap, one to a useless skill that remains useless, the other is a half-arsed change that won't make any impact. Now, there were SUPPOSED to be 2 more buffs but due to ZOS not understanding the class they ended up being nerfs... one of those being a catastrophic nerf to the class (petrify change).

Maulkin

krathos wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

There's two buffs on this patch, what's the complain about? Because not enough buffs?

Because there's 2 buffs, which are absolute crap, one to a useless skill that remains useless, the other is a half-arsed change that won't make any impact. Now, there were SUPPOSED to be 2 more buffs but due to ZOS not understanding the class they ended up being nerfs... one of those being a catastrophic nerf to the class (petrify change).

Dunno, bugs aside I find Wings quite useful in BGs. In all modes, but especially when running relics. Fends off Clench, Frag and Cripple CC pretty nicely. Crap in open PvP though, as it gets consumed very quickly.

Has that change to Pertify gone through yet or is it just talk, like the increasing cost of the defensive ults, the Frag nerf etc? I do hope they'll back out of that one.

Toc de Malsvi

NBrookus wrote: »

I realize you are coming from this from an archer point of view. So the sheer number of other skills that can't be reflected or the number of times wings bugs out and doesn't reflect anything for the cost of 3400 magicka is not on your radar the way it is on a DKs.

Bow builds are about the only thing Wings actually shuts down defensively, and there's about zero chance a mDK getting sniped from max range has of actually catching that player anyway.

The fact that 99% of bow builds in Cyrodiil are reduced to glass cannon NB snipers that can cloak away at the slightest danger you might get near them, and will wait until you are already under pressure from multiple opponents before attacking is an issue that needs to be addressed separately, not by nerfing DKs one defense against them.

While the bulk of my experience is using a Bow. It is also using one on a DK. I have max level mag and stam versions of NB, Sorc, and DK.

However 70% of that is on the Mag and Stam DK. I will openly point out that I do not have as much experience on mag DK as stam DK. Yet I am very aware of the cost, of wings.

Wings was nerfed along a continual line because of how strong it is. The shell that is left is indeed wanting in open world pvp, provided you have several sources of projectiles. The fact of the matter is that you dont need to keep it up, you only need to cast it once you see Snipe/frag incoming.

Wings primary fault lies in the fact that it us too strong vs projectiles while being too costly and also useless vs non projectiles. The fix to wings is to reduce the effectiveness as a pure reflect but to add more benefits to your group as well as to yourself.

krathos

Maulkin wrote: »

krathos wrote: »

Maulkin wrote: »

There's two buffs on this patch, what's the complain about? Because not enough buffs?

Because there's 2 buffs, which are absolute crap, one to a useless skill that remains useless, the other is a half-arsed change that won't make any impact. Now, there were SUPPOSED to be 2 more buffs but due to ZOS not understanding the class they ended up being nerfs... one of those being a catastrophic nerf to the class (petrify change).

Dunno, bugs aside I find Wings quite useful in BGs. In all modes, but especially when running relics. Fends off Clench, Frag and Cripple CC pretty nicely. Crap in open PvP though, as it gets consumed very quickly.

Has that change to Pertify gone through yet or is it just talk, like the increasing cost of the defensive ults, the Frag nerf etc? I do hope they'll back out of that one.

yes. it went through last patch notes.

krathos

I hope everyone here realizes that DKs just got hit the hardest by this Siphoner change. It affects passive abilities (not active skills) and armor sets so dark deal, repentance, etc aren't affected (not that I'm saying they should be).

But what this means is that it does affect battleroar and helping hands. So, the class with the worst sustain just took the brunt of the hit on a sustain nerf yet again.

It also means popular DK sustain sets such as Desert Rose and Syrabane are affected as well.

They really don't understand DK. They really, truly, don't understand this class. Absolute insanity.

scipionumatia

What is everyone gonna run on their stam dk bars? I'm scratching my head really have no clue. With shuffle gone, and switching rally to forward momentum there's no other class skills that are relevant? I guess put on FoO? Or evil hunter just to fill the space?

Seriously though what are your stam dk bars gonna look like next patch.

Jjitsuboy98

scipionumatia wrote: »

What is everyone gonna run on their stam dk bars? I'm scratching my head really have no clue. With shuffle gone, and switching rally to forward momentum there's no other class skills that are relevant? I guess put on FoO? Or evil hunter just to fill the space?

Seriously though what are your stam dk bars gonna look like next patch.

Think I'm done with the class.