Shieldbreaker escaped proc set nerfs

Alpheu5

Derra wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t know of any player who has managed to make a competetive magsorc build without shields. Every other class can.

Because hardly anybody tries, and most of those that do give up on it because the playstyle paradigm is so atypical that it's like relearning the class from the ground up.

@Alpheu5 or it might be that the class just does not support it as well as other classes.
NB, templar, warden and DK work well in light armor without a shield - because they have more or less reliable class healing mechanics.
The only reliable heal sorc gets is a bird with 12k hp - that ironically needs a shield to stay alive for more than one second.

Sorc class simply has no access to healing that would be even near sufficient to substitute for shields. I´ve known countless players who tried and i´ve tried a handful of times myself wasting probably hundreds of gold mats in the process.

I have not found a way. I´ve never seen anyone who found a way.

Compared to that it took my shield magblade half an hour to come up with a light amor build without shields that was competetive. But yeah it´s the sorc community...

Like I said, relearning the class. That doesn't happen in half an hour.

Biro123

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Although there are the odd ones that you do manage to identify, or separate from the crowd - and if you're not in too much bad shape (unlikely) that you can land a burst combo - they always die.. Why? Because they have NEVER l
earned to defend themselves in the game - are terrible players and rely on a stupid set like this to make them effective.

This is the problem that people don't understand with it... The only counter is bursting the offender.... IF and this is a BIG "if" you can identify them - and IF they haven't a clue how to defend themselves.

Biggest problems with shieldbreaker..:

1. You do not know if it present when you decide to engage.
2. It is VERY difficult to see who is using it to try to LOS or burst them
3. It makes total incompetent noobs into people you have to run from.
4. It is still rare enough that it takes a couple of seconds to register what is happening (which puts you 6k health down to start with)
5. It does nothing against non-shield-users - making it an all or nothing set.. Bad mechanic.
6. It does more damage than viper ever did - from range - and undefendable
7. Damage is too much.

See how the damage complaint comes last in the list of all that is wrong with it. ?

All these counter arguments of 'you're a noob if you cant heal through it' and L2P.. Well I find it really funny when aimed at Derra - one of the top sorcs on EU. Fair enough when aimed at me - I'm only average.. But I know the class inside-out - just not so great at implementing it! SO I'm fine with advice that is workable - that I have to practice at. I just havn't heard anything that's workable yet.

So, enlighten me - oh wise one, how to heal through it.? As an example.. I use the twilight matriarch.. It heals for around 8k.. with major defile - 5-6k. In combat with a light-attacking shealdbreaker.. he does 2200 every 0.6 seconds. Any shieldbreaker user with half a brain opens with lethal-arrow for the major defile - so it takes 1.8 seconds to do 6600 damage.
So to survive my rotation is... Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. The heal is relying on crits to out heal the damage over time. This is one of the strongest heals in the game, remember.
The ONLY way to free up 3 seconds to land a single burst is with resto ulti and you get one chance of that landing.. ofc somebody created an addon to make sure that burst usually fails... but that's a totally different subject. And that's assuming you've managed to identify the culprit...

Those who say 2.2k every 0.6 seconds is nothing... those are just BS claims too when one of the strongest heals in game struggles with it.

Derra

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t know of any player who has managed to make a competetive magsorc build without shields. Every other class can.

Because hardly anybody tries, and most of those that do give up on it because the playstyle paradigm is so atypical that it's like relearning the class from the ground up.

@Alpheu5 or it might be that the class just does not support it as well as other classes.
NB, templar, warden and DK work well in light armor without a shield - because they have more or less reliable class healing mechanics.
The only reliable heal sorc gets is a bird with 12k hp - that ironically needs a shield to stay alive for more than one second.

Sorc class simply has no access to healing that would be even near sufficient to substitute for shields. I´ve known countless players who tried and i´ve tried a handful of times myself wasting probably hundreds of gold mats in the process.

I have not found a way. I´ve never seen anyone who found a way.

Compared to that it took my shield magblade half an hour to come up with a light amor build without shields that was competetive. But yeah it´s the sorc community...

Like I said, relearning the class. That doesn't happen in half an hour.

No but the theorycrafting usually happens in that time.
I´ve also stated that i put a lot more time into it - and compared it to my NB where it took a fraction (half an hour) of that to come up with something way better than anything i managed to achieve on sorc.

What do you suggest then?
How would you heal?
Why would relearning the class be a reasonable approach when all other classes don´t have to in the first place?

Let´s hear your ideas...

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

Every time it was used by a capable NB. So probably between 10 and 20 times - though the set was a lot less usable before the introduction of weapons for IC sets.
That goes for without using los - i don´t consider using line of sight a valid tactic for 1v1 encounters as basically nobody dies when using los.

As you said, nobody dies in a 1v1 when using LOS. So, how come you died anyway?

I'm trying to picture the scenario in my head. A sorc who dies to 5+secs of light attack spam.
If there is LOS, you LOS him.
If there isn't, and hes close, you bolt though him, then bolt again while he is breaking free, and you're out of range.
If he's far, you bolt in the other direction and you're out of range.

Unless you let him shoot you on purpose, i don't see how you could possibly have lost that fight.

pieratsos

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t know of any player who has managed to make a competetive magsorc build without shields. Every other class can.

Because hardly anybody tries, and most of those that do give up on it because the playstyle paradigm is so atypical that it's like relearning the class from the ground up.

@Alpheu5 or it might be that the class just does not support it as well as other classes.
NB, templar, warden and DK work well in light armor without a shield - because they have more or less reliable class healing mechanics.
The only reliable heal sorc gets is a bird with 12k hp - that ironically needs a shield to stay alive for more than one second.

Sorc class simply has no access to healing that would be even near sufficient to substitute for shields. I´ve known countless players who tried and i´ve tried a handful of times myself wasting probably hundreds of gold mats in the process.

I have not found a way. I´ve never seen anyone who found a way.

Compared to that it took my shield magblade half an hour to come up with a light amor build without shields that was competetive. But yeah it´s the sorc community...

Like I said, relearning the class. That doesn't happen in half an hour.

No it doesnt, it happens with time and players that mastered the class after months and years of playing it know what its capable of and what its not. The entire class is designed to defend by shielding. Its common sense that a competitive build without shields wont work.

pieratsos

But lol to the players defending shieldbreaker and telling people to L2P at the same time. The irony...

Mojomonkeyman

You can find my fair share of complaints about sorcs on this forum. But this thread is a parody of a discussion.

I haven't found a msorc who could beat me on s&b/resto shieldbreaker-blackrose a few patches back. It was simply impossible even for players I consider to be some of the greatest in the game. The fights were 100% in my favor, every single time.

I don't know if its a matter of NA meta being so different, but this Dorrino guy seems to be completely out of touch with the game or intentionally trying to manipulate plebs to support his opinion. I mean, honestly, how low can someone fall to not only rely on self-made addons that bypass crucial elements of skilled play (situational awareness) but also to equip one of the most broken sets in the game and claims it sets things straight.

Is this guy really considered a source for credible input on balance on NA? Hilarious.

WaltherCarraway

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

You can find my fair share of complaints about sorcs on this forum. But this thread is a parody of a discussion.

I haven't found a msorc who could beat me on s&b/resto shieldbreaker-blackrose a few patches back. It was simply impossible even for players I consider to be some of the greatest in the game. The fights were 100% in my favor, every single time.

I don't know if its a matter of NA meta being so different, but this Dorrino guy seems to be completely out of touch with the game or intentionally trying to manipulate plebs to support his opinion. I mean, honestly, how low can someone fall to not only rely on self-made addons that bypass crucial elements of skilled play (situational awareness) but also to equip one of the most broken sets in the game and claims it sets things straight.

Is this guy really considered a source for credible input on balance on NA? Hilarious.

Dorrino aka Miat.

Sharee

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Biro123

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Try it on a sorc. Seriously.. I mean its not massively common - but those with shieldbreaker always make a bee-line for the sorc. Many of them will stealth up and change their gear to shieldbreaker especially for that sorc.

I don't see it every day (but I don't use boundless - so its not all that obvious I'm a sorc from a distance).. but when I do see it - its the same few people and if you keep pushing that same keep (ie stay in the same area) they will keep looking for you - and you get it again and again till you just go somewhere else or log a different class.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

As you said, nobody dies in a 1v1 when using LOS. So, how come you died anyway?

I'm trying to picture the scenario in my head. A sorc who dies to 5+secs of light attack spam.
If there is LOS, you LOS him.
If there isn't, and hes close, you bolt though him, then bolt again while he is breaking free, and you're out of range.
If he's far, you bolt in the other direction and you're out of range.

Unless you let him shoot you on purpose, i don't see how you could possibly have lost that fight.

To quote myself:

Derra wrote: »

That goes for without using los

Because i don´t play musical chairs around a stone in a 1v1. It´s idiotic.

But thanks for making my point. You agree that the counter to that is basically running away. Which is found in one of my original statements.

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Lucky you.
I encounter shieldbreaker spam literally every 2nd fight.

I can name ~10 pvp regulars that resort to pure shieldbreaker spam on top of my head and there are a lot more that i simply don´t meet that often.

I even get lightattack spammed (shieldbreaker) on my NB that does not use shields.

I´d go as far as saying shieldbreaker is after bonepirate and hundings the most commonly used medium armor set in pvp on PC EU.

pieratsos

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Maybe because there is no reason to target you with shieldbreaker? You do realise that they intentionally use shieldbreaker with the sole purpose of attacking sorcs specifically right? And i mean that literally. You could be zergsurfing with 50 people and u'll still get shieldbreaker spammed the second you get in range of bow light attacks. You can change side of the zerg, doesnt matter they will just follow. Wherever you go, whatever you do. As long as you are close to their zerg and in range of light attacks, you will get spammed. Its like they are obsessed with killing sorcs with shieldbreaker.

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

Because i don´t play musical chairs around a stone in a 1v1. It´s idiotic.

Well I am not sure "yes i can counter SB but i wont because i think it is idiotic" is a convincing argument for nerfing SB.

Derra

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Maybe because there is no reason to target you with shieldbreaker? You do realise that they intentionally use shieldbreaker with the sole purpose of attacking sorcs specifically right?

It´s a superb set against magica wardens aswell.

It proccs on shimmering armor. Maybe people have not realized that yet wherever he/she plays.

Biro123

'Run Away' can be used to say that nothing is overpowered....

People complain about undodgeable bird spam and soul assault.. Run Away!

Or Shieldbreaker.. Run Away

They used to comaplain about multi-proc-sets - Run away!

On no-cp ppl complain about coldfire.. Run Away!

Unblockable Curse... Run Away!

One-shot berserker strike - Run Away!

I'm sorry but 'Run away' is NOT an answer to 'This is overpowered'

In fact, this sums up shieldbreaker quite well..:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92gP2J0CUjc

Sharee

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Maybe because there is no reason to target you with shieldbreaker? You do realise that they intentionally use shieldbreaker with the sole purpose of attacking sorcs specifically right?

Yea im sure every one of those thousands of shieldbreaker-users in cyrodiil disrobed and changed to some other set everytime they were about to engage me. Nevermind that 10K dampen shield.

/rollseyes

pieratsos

Sharee wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Maybe because there is no reason to target you with shieldbreaker? You do realise that they intentionally use shieldbreaker with the sole purpose of attacking sorcs specifically right?

Yea im sure every one of those thousands of shieldbreaker-users in cyrodiil disrobed and changed to some other set everytime they were about to engage me. Nevermind that 10K dampen shield.

/rollseyes

Can you even read before posting ur BS or common sense is too hard for you? I said they dont attack you because they target sorcs specifically. Get it now?

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Because i don´t play musical chairs around a stone in a 1v1. It´s idiotic.

Well I am not sure "yes i can counter SB but i wont because i think it is idiotic" is a convincing argument for nerfing SB.

That it´s only counterable by not getting attacked is imo a pretty compelling argument that it´s overperforming.

Hey you can counter it - just don´t get hit, kappa.

That is the best argument i´ve ever heared.

Sharee

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Maybe because there is no reason to target you with shieldbreaker? You do realise that they intentionally use shieldbreaker with the sole purpose of attacking sorcs specifically right?

Yea im sure every one of those thousands of shieldbreaker-users in cyrodiil disrobed and changed to some other set everytime they were about to engage me. Nevermind that 10K dampen shield.

/rollseyes

Can you even read before posting ur BS or common sense is too hard for you? I said they dont attack you because they target sorcs specifically. Get it now?

So according to you there are hordes of shieldbreaker-wielding enemies who simply ignore the shielded warden because they specifically set out to kill shielded sorcerers.

That's even more /rollseyes, you know.

pieratsos

Derra wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Maybe because there is no reason to target you with shieldbreaker? You do realise that they intentionally use shieldbreaker with the sole purpose of attacking sorcs specifically right?

It´s a superb set against magica wardens aswell.

It proccs on shimmering armor. Maybe people have not realized that yet wherever he/she plays.

Its good against anyone with a shield. Thing is only sorc cant survive without a shield up. And only sorcs will play with prety much 100% uptime on shields because if ur shields are down u are about to explode in any second. So not only its more effective against sorcs but u could be attacked by shieldbreaker on other classes and not even realise it cause ur shields are not up and they eventually switched targets because their useless snb/bow build with light attack as a spammable isnt effective on you. Which was the entire point he tried to make. That there are not many shieldbreakers because he is not being targeted by one.

pieratsos

Sharee wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

Maybe because there is no reason to target you with shieldbreaker? You do realise that they intentionally use shieldbreaker with the sole purpose of attacking sorcs specifically right?

Yea im sure every one of those thousands of shieldbreaker-users in cyrodiil disrobed and changed to some other set everytime they were about to engage me. Nevermind that 10K dampen shield.

/rollseyes

Can you even read before posting ur BS or common sense is too hard for you? I said they dont attack you because they target sorcs specifically. Get it now?

So according to you there are hordes of shieldbreaker-wielding enemies who simply ignore the shielded warden because they specifically set out to kill shielded sorcerers.

That's even more /rollseyes, you know.

Whats even more /rollseyes is believing that sorcs are not being targetted by shieldbreaker because ur warden isnt targeted by shieldbreakers. *Logic*. And btw i never said hordes. I guess you cant read after all. Glad that we straighten that out.
And whats even more /rollseyes than that is defending a completely bs that serves absolutely nothing and clearly failed to do whatever its intended purpose was.

Mojomonkeyman

Sharee wrote: »

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

equip one of the most broken sets in the game

If spending my youth playing computer games taught me anything, it is that there is no such thing as as 'most broken set' that noone uses.

I've been playing my magicka warden from morrowind release to about 2 weeks ago. You know how many times i saw shieldbreaker in my combat log during that time?

Once.

I agree with your first statement. Makes no difference though, when taking the context of my message into account - that I doubt someone who
a) invents and uses an addon to make up for shortcomings as a player
b) seems to prefer broken sets
c) claims those broken sets are needed
is a good enough player to give credible input on balance when discussing those broken sets.

Regarding your second anectode: play some bgs, enjoy the shieldbreaker-knightslayer party. It's disgusting and not rare at all. I main a magwarden as well, shield breaker alone (even paired with oblivion enchant infused) is not dangerous to us, because trellis. It is completely gamechanging for magsorcs tho.

A well played shieldbreaker-knightslayer dw stambuild cannot be handled with a shield depended light armor magwarden build. I have between 3-8k pvp hps in bgs, and I couldnt because the incoming damage cannot be countered cost efficiently.

I have both sets and a stamsorc, if you are playing PC EU and want to verify my input, we can meet up and I'd be glad to show you what I mean.

Best regards

Dorrino

@Sharee

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Because i don´t play musical chairs around a stone in a 1v1. It´s idiotic.

Well I am not sure "yes i can counter SB but i wont because i think it is idiotic" is a convincing argument for nerfing SB.

I don't know you, but i love you already:)

CyrusArya

@Dorrino

Im not saying your opinion is ignorant, if you truly have a magicka sorc. That comment was for people who discuss balance without having played the class they think is op.

Its quite simple. You're not wrong....its nearly impossible to burst a good sorc through their shields. However, the trick is this. Every other classes has strong passive mitigation, heals/heal over time affects that are relatively cheap, or both. Aside from mobility and kiting mines (both of which can be countered), shields are the sorcs only line of defense. And in contrast to other builds, shielding is an active mechanic. One that is also very costly per stack, and also one that must be refreshed every 6 seconds regardless of how much damage you take.

Long story short, you outplay a sorc by outplaying their shields. Either landing the burst when you know the shield will be down, or by running them outta magicka with relentless pressure. I ask for a duel not out of animosity or cockiness, but to genuinely demonstrate to you how much a magicka sorc struggles against a class/build that can sufficiently mitigate the sorcs burst while applying enough pressure to win the battle of resource attrition.

Its this comment i take objection to: "It's op because it's much harder for a mag sorc to die (and at the same time much easier to kill other players) than for most other specs."

With the caveat that you're talking about a good sorc (bad sorcs drop faster than anything in cyrodiil), I completely disagree that its easier to kill other players than most specs. I will take any stam class over a sorc in regards to kill potential, and I'd say mageblade is tied or surpasses sorc in this regard as well. Precisely because sorc is the single most easily countered class in the game...everything besides curse can be mitigated and a templar can render that moot as well. An issue further compounded by a certain add on that holds the users hand and tell em exactly when to block or roll. A sorc that is being properly pressured will not only do no damage, but will run themselves dry shield stacking.

DeadlyRecluse

Remember when Shieldbreaker first was announced, and there were hypothetical complaints about a DK igneous shielding people so that their Shieldbreaker buddies on another faction could kill them?

That was funny.

bardx86

Devilhand wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Tried out Shield Breaker today. It's a set I'd been meaning to give a go, and just hadn't gotten around to it.

I have to say, it works pretty well

---

on guys that didn't bother to get themselves any health and don't have any health heals whatsoever on their bars, that is. I mean, it positively shreds folks sitting at sub 20k hp underneath all those shields.....unless they bother to have vigor or surge or even bother hitting with a dark magic attack, at that point it pretty much mitigates it since the shield is eating all the other damage.

People that actually prepare for the fights forced me to bother using skills as well as light attacking, and used things of their own to mitigate the direct health damage because seriously, it's 2500 damage per light attack, it's not like they can't outheal that with basic self maintenance.

Frankly, I haven't decided it I'm even going to keep it or just swap it out for something more globally useful.

Bit sorcs can't heal it with basic self maintenance.. They have no tools for that.

WRONG.
You have clearly a L2P issue.

There are plenty of counter to it, you just dont know them or even worse just cry in here because you dont want to adapt.

bardx86 wrote: »

Curse doesn't hit for 10k anymore. Curse is about 4-5k on anyone that has a good build. Frags is around 6-7 k.

WRONG.
My sorc hits regularly between 8 to 10k curses. You are doing it wrong. Dont take advice from the dude you quoted

Biro123 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

The problem we had with proc sets was (primarily) that they allowed for no real counter play.

Look at some of the remedies we now have. The solution we got for Viper was to convert the large burst damage into a DOT ... the amount of damage didn't change, only that it now occurs over 8 seconds (or whatever the timeframe is). What was the solution to Selene? LOL! Now, a split second before the bear hits you over the head, the player will glow green.

Honestly, why are we complaining about Shield Breaker ... a set that has been around for a long long time. It doesn't do a single "high burst' of lethal damage like Viper used to do, but rather it does mediocre damage with each light attack (and it generally takes several attacks to kill someone).

So what if a new player can spam enough pew-pews to whittle down the health of someone wearing a damage shield to protect their low health build! I mean, who in the heck just stands there and allows themselves to be hit like that without taking any counter measures?

If you have a low health build that has just taken a hit on your health in pvp land ... well, you are going to be the focus of other pvp'ers anyway, whether they wear SB or not ... it's just the nature of pvp (focus on easy, low health, low CP targets (as well as healers)).

If you are a high health build/tank ... well ... immortality (near immortality) can't be allowed to exist in a game for obvious reasons. Such tanks are harmless you say? LOL! You can harm a player .... you can also harm a campaign ... one doesn't necessarily depend on the other.

So, viper did around 4k every 4 seconds.. Cos battle-spirit affected it. It was then further reduced by resists, shields, etc. And was melee only.

Shieldbreaker does 5k every 2 seconds, can not be reduced by anything and from range.
Viper was a baby compared to shieldbreaker.

WRONG, again.
Viper was universally good. With the right build and skill set up could hit over 6k dmg with battle spirit on, after the patch that didnt allow it to crit... Yep, learn ESO mechanics.
That allowed any NB, or stam class (harder), to burst any player in 2 shoots.
Specifically against sorcs, i take viper over shieldbreaker any time.

If you die to a SB user that is just sppaming light attacks on you... You should be ashamed.

Valencer wrote: »

As Devilhand tells us multiple times - we can adapt.

Med armor adapted to play around undodgable birds and undodgable AND unblockable scorch.

I trust mag sorcs are capable to adapt to shieldbreaker as well. It's a considerably easier task.

This is a stamblade being delusional. You didnt adapt to anything - your class simply gets saved by having access to cloak. Medium armour players are screwed on any other class.

So asking sorcs to adapt to something they simply cant adapt to unless they start running a build that cant kill anything that knows how to defend itself (serious sacrifices are needed to be able to heal effectively and constantly on a mag sorc) is really silly.

Shieldbreaker is stupid... deal with it.[/quote]

hmm... I dont think he is delusional. I adapted too.
And why other stam classes would want to go medium? the have better tools to survive wearing heavy due to class passives and skills, not to mentio they even get more damage from heavy sets. Its not like they want to wear medium, its just not worthy and they know it.

And lastly, THEY CAN ADAPT.

Scene: Mag sorc fighting a noob/cheesy SB user.
- SB user sppams Liaght attacks
- - Sorc sppams shields.
- Sorc dies.

Happens every time, and that says 1 thing... L2P.

Biro123 wrote: »

Guess what..? Shield-breaker damage ignores resists.. So can stack as much heavy armour as you want under those shields - and it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference..

Double-guess what? Sorcs have absolutely no choice other than to shield for their defence. Other magica classes get shield (from light armour) + something else.. heals, cloaks, reflects, etc.. Sorcs get NOTHING. I've been trying to come up with a viable magsorc build that doesn't have to rely on shields for quite a while now - y'know what? Haven't managed it. I'm open to any suggestions you may have of course..

Give me a break... Sorcs DO HAVE a lot of ways around it, no wonders you havent managed it.

[/quote]

How am I doing it wrong, am i not hitting the button hard enough or something? 8-10k frags are a thing, against potatoes. Anyone with a good build they don't hit that hard.

bardx86

davey1107 wrote: »

@Derra

You're really big into the logical fallacies when you talk about sorcs. You use the same arguments here that you use in my overly long posts about them being OP, lol. Someone says "sorcs are a little OP" then you say "I kill a lot of sorcs...blah blah bad attitude, how are they OP then...lots of sorcs die...blah blah ad hominem attack...blah..." Ha.

When people are complaining about Sorcs being OP, what they're saying is that they're like 10% more powerful...not infinitely more powerful. Let's imagine that one might be able to grade a player's performance based on a combination of player skills and toon capabilities. On my stamblades, I'd call my grade an A- based on my kill skill and survivability.

Under this hypothetical, I should generally be able to kill most any player graded less than me, having an easier time as the grades go lower. A B+ player should be disadvantaged slightly but have a solid shot at beating me, with a good performance or a little luck. A C+ player can kill me, but it's going to have to be pretty lucky. A D+ player will almost never kill me unless I utterly screw up, etc.

A class or build being OP means that whole curve is lifted. In an extreme OP situation, C+ players are now generally comparable to A- players of the other classes. In such a situation the bottom half of players in the OP class are still going to have it rough against good opponents. And B+ players will die a lot. But they'll all perform a little better than players of the same skill grade of other classes.

You don't have to agree that sorcs are OP...but your system of measuring whether this is the case or not is not mathematically sound or logical.

Well if 10% is your number then by definition they wouldn't be OP. Maybe SMP?(slightly more powered)

Dorrino

@CyrusArya

CyrusArya wrote: »

Either landing the burst when you know the shield will be down, or by running them outta magicka with relentless pressure.

My dear Arya, but this is obvious and it's exactly what i said.

The sorc (not his opponent) has to either:
- fail at renewing shields;
- fail to manage his mag and stam

And i, as an opponent, have exactly zero reliable methods to force the sorc to do either.

I can't prevent him to manage his shields. That's fully on him.

As to his resources, even ravage mag, after the nerf, is not reliable anymore. Most due to dark conversion.

The only way to pressure the sorc is to interrupt each single dark conversion, which i found almost impossible in practice.

Yes, i can bash, say 80% of dark conversions. That's not enough.

If it had at least 2 sec cast time AND a considerably higher noticeable animation, then it would've been probably possible to starve a mag sorc on resources.

But we're not there and that's it.

If a mag sorc dies in 1v1, it's solely his fault. So if i win, it's because he failed at quite simple tasks (relative to the efforts i need to put to win). That's why i prefer not to duel mag sorcs:)

CyrusArya wrote: »

applying enough pressure to win the battle of resource attrition.

Maybe you're much better than me as a player and can bash conversions after streak stun. Maybe you manage to block 95% of "turn around and streak through you". Maybe you don't need to take pauses to recover your own resources.

In that case i agree it's l2p issue on my part.

But even if it's so, don't you think that it's much easier for a mag sorc to pull off a dark conversion than for me to prevent that? And since, as we see, that's the only 'reliable' way to force a mag sorc to lose, doesn't it make the fight quite uneven, so mag sorc's opponents have to be way better than the sorc to win?:)

I.e. we can confirm the op-ness of mag sorc atm?:)

CyrusArya wrote: »

With the caveat that you're talking about a good sorc (bad sorcs drop faster than anything in cyrodiil), I completely disagree that its easier to kill other players than most specs. I will take any stam class over a sorc in regards to kill potential, and I'd say mageblade is tied or surpasses sorc in this regard as well. Precisely because sorc is the single most easily countered class in the game...everything besides curse can be mitigated and a templar can render that moot as well. An issue further compounded by a certain add on that holds the users hand and tell em exactly when to block or roll. A sorc that is being properly pressured will not only do no damage, but will run themselves dry shield stacking.

Again, the point is how easy it is for a mag sorc to pull off both really strong defense and really strong offence. Other classes might perform better in specific circumstances (like kiting a zerg as a nightblade), but overall let me quote @davey1107:

davey1107 wrote: »

A class or build being OP means that whole curve is lifted. In an extreme OP situation, C+ players are now generally comparable to A- players of the other classes. In such a situation the bottom half of players in the OP class are still going to have it rough against good opponent

@Derra

Obviously when i said 1v1 a bow sb spammer is not a problem for a mag sorc, i didn't mean the mag sorc standing in the middle of the field and outhealing bow sb light attacks while shielding non-stop:)

Mag sorc uses los and dodges to reduce pressure if necessary. Mag sorc chooses not to shield while the spammer is at range and go back to shielding when and if the guy charges in.

In the situation that you described you've been trolled by the guy at max range. Then why would you even shield, at the first place?

Obviously the guy won't be able to kill you from range, and if he decides to go melee, a good mag sorc won't let him get away.

So it's either the guy stays ranged all the time and you don't need to shield (while still damaging the guy with full sorc ranged burst) or he goes melee and won't be able to spam light bow sb.

@Sharee put it perfectly (still giggling). It feels like you prefer not to play around it and stick to the mentality "ima mag sorc, i should be able to tank anything'.

CyrusArya

Dorrino wrote: »

And i, as an opponent, have exactly zero reliable methods to force the sorc to do either
[............]
I a mag sorc dies in 1v1, it's solely his fault. So if i win, it's because he failed at quite a simple tasks (relative to the efforts i need to put to win). That's why i prefer not to duel mag sorcs:)

@Dorrino

You do have a reliable method to force the sorc to mess up at shielding, its by simply by properly applying pressure. You don't need to bash every single conversion, just one or two at the right time. I agree with you that sorcs have the ability to stall out fights better than other classes..but a stall is a stall. A sorc that is constantly shielding is a sorc that isn't dealing damage. But in a situation where the sorc is on the defensive more than the offensive, it will eventually lose the war of attrition. The one thing that makes an exception to my claims is the resto ulti which is just plain OP in any circumstance.

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, its just not my experience that sorcs are particularly op vs a strong opponent, either playing as one or against one. But then again we may have a difference in perspective that influences this.