Shieldbreaker escaped proc set nerfs

Biro123

And a again. Two wrongs won't make a right..

IF sorcs are overpowered (which is very subjective) then fix what's overpowered. Don't be adding other broken mechanics to offset it.

And for the record, I don't think sorcs are overpowered. Strong , but not overpowered, but I will say that I find stamblades easiest to beat out of all classes.

I've said it before, the main problem with sorcs is that stamblades expect them to be their natural prey, where the truth is the opposite.

The other problem is how their defensive mechanism scales with multiple opponents. Shields should be weaker 1v1 but stronger vs multiple opponents to be balanced with other defensive mechanisms.

But none of that is relevant to shieldbreaker. If 2 things are broken you fix em both. You don't say 'well, the one I use is fine because yours is broken too.

Dorrino

@CyrusArya

CyrusArya wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

My experience strongly implies that you can't win by outdamaging propely maintained shield stack of a mag sorc.

But, once again, i presume you can support your claim.

Please take a good mag sorc. Faso or Kodi would do - and demonstrate it to us all.

Last time I dueled Kodi on his sorc it was with my heavy armor stam sorc, and it ended in a draw after about 10 minutes. I think you are misinterpreting my claims tho. Obviously sorc is a powerful class, and I am not claiming I can beat any sorc every time. What I am saying is, the class is not particularly overpowered. In a fight between a sorc and any other class, between equally skilled opponents, the match will be competitive. Because it is fairly balanced. Wether you win or lose, you won or lost to the player....not the class. There absolutely is counter play to sorcs that does not require shield breaker.

The problem is, players like you who have an agenda against the class flat out refuse to see or understand the fight from the sorc's perspective. All you see is the endless damage being absorbed, but not the strain on the resources or more importantly the fact that a sorc is at any given time 2-3 hits away from dying under the shields. You don't win vs a sorc by out damaging the shields, and thats not at all what im claiming. You win vs a sorc by maintaining pressure over time till they cannot maintain the shields, or by catching em with the burst in a momentary lapse of shielding.

But you don't care for the reasoning or logic or perspective, you just wanna rationalize that shield breaker is a reasonable and fair counter because sorcs are just plain overpowered. Again, I would just suggest that maybe as a eternal hunt stamblade your perspective is skewed. Sorc is very powerful against your playstyle. Against a stamplar, or heavy armor stamina bleed build, or a magicka dk, or a magicka nb? Not so much.

There are 2 problems with your approach to the discussion:

1. You don't understand me. Which is fine, as long as you keep trying.
2. You imply that i'm stupid. This is much harder to overcome, and generally leads to counterproductive results.

It's obvious that if a guy mostly plays one class he has no clue about playing other classes, right?

And whatever he claims has to be taken as biased through his first hand experience?

In the result, instead of discussing the problem at hand - we discuss me.

When you disagreed and claimed that you're capable to force a good sorc to lose did i tell you that you're wrong, even though i got compelling reasons to believe that you are?

No, due to respect i assumed that despite those reasons you might still be correct. I gave you the benefit of a doubt.

I used Kodi not as an example of a good player, i used him as an example of a good magicka sorc player. If you're correct and you can force a mag sorc to lose, surely you should be able to force him to lose, right?

It's not about players, otherwise we wouldn't have this discussion. I personally can reliably win against any magicka sorc beside a dozen at most.

I don't have a problem winning.

You ignored the major point here that was the combination of one of the strongest burst offense in the game combined with one of the strongest defense in the game topped with the simplicity of both - that are magicka sorcs currently.

Again and again i try to clarify that magicka sorcs are not overpowered in the sense that you can reliably kill 2+ equally skilled players on you. Assuming this is ridiculous.

It is overpowered in the sense i descibed to you above. Glass cannon burst majorly unavoidable damage with uncrittable 150%+ effective hp. And both are achievable in the simplest manner possible.

Furthermore i claimed that out of the 2 ways to kill a really skilled (tm) magicka sorc (outdamage shields and starve on resources) both are not possible in practice.

And instead of proving me wrong you decided to attack me as a person.

I.e. I'm wrong not because specific arguments, but because i'm biased.

No i'm not biased here. That's the assumption you have to take in order to have a reasonable discussion. Just like i took the same assumption about you.

Prove that i'm biased! Prove that's i'm wrong!

Prove that you can reliably force a good magicka sorc to lose.

I don't know any class in the game that can do this. Including magicka sorcs themselves.

Prove me wrong.

Again, killing A magicka sorc is easy. Show me a way to force a GOOD magicka sorc to lose.

I know a bunch of ways to do that to a stamblade (any stamblade). Or a madblade. I know a bunch of ways to do that do a mag and stam dk. I know how to do that to a stam sorc. To a magplar. To non-heavy wardens of any kinds and to non-heavy stamplar.

Prove that mag sorcs are no different. I can prove that they won't die:) Prove that they will.

As to the competitiveness it's true that it can be abybody's fight between a mag sorc and any other class. The op part comes into play when it's much easier and considerably less dangerous for a mag sorc to fight than for most if not all other players.

If a mag sorc survives - that's expected.

It's a class that always has a chance to win (besidea proper tanks) and never has a chance to lose if player properly. No matter who he fights.

SanTii.92

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This piece is remarkable:)

One of your major concerns is that you can't kill a guy. One of my major concerns is that i die in 2 sec if i don't outplay the opponent.

How do you twist a thread about a set that kills sorcs very easily into a thread about dying as a NB?

But in the case of sorcs, we have an imbalanced class, and that's why shieldbreaker serves a globally beneficial function at the expense of being locally detrimental to the overperforming class.

Just because mag sorcs are a (soft)counter to your class, med armor stamnb, does not mean that the class is overpowered. Could you agree with that?

Dorrino

SanTii.92 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This piece is remarkable:)

One of your major concerns is that you can't kill a guy. One of my major concerns is that i die in 2 sec if i don't outplay the opponent.

How do you twist a thread about a set that kills sorcs very easily into a thread about dying as a NB?

But in the case of sorcs, we have an imbalanced class, and that's why shieldbreaker serves a globally beneficial function at the expense of being locally detrimental to the overperforming class.

Just because mag sorcs are a (soft)counter to your class, med armor stamnb, does not mean that the class is overpowered. Could you agree with that?

This statement is correct.

Besides being correct this statement is obvious thus i wouldn't use it as the basis of any of my arguments.

pieratsos

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This piece is remarkable:)

One of your major concerns is that you can't kill a guy. One of my major concerns is that i die in 2 sec if i don't outplay the opponent.

How do you twist a thread about a set that kills sorcs very easily into a thread about dying as a NB?

And yet again.

Sorcs concerns with sb are only validated if sorcs don't overperform.

Then we have a perfectly balanced class being put at a disadvantage. Which is the problem.

But in the case of sorcs, we have an imbalanced class, and that's why shieldbreaker serves a globally beneficial function at the expense of being locally detrimental to the overperforming class.

Nightblades problems are one of the justifications of the existance of shieldbreaker in this sense.

If you find sorcs unbalanced ask for specific sorc nerfs. Not defending a set that hardcounters the entire class without them being able to do anything. Is this really so hard to understand?

When you defend sb the only thing that you show is that you dont give a damn about balance. You just like the easy kills on sorcs and you dont want to lose that.

buttaface

Derra wrote: »

Literally every class gets to do that.

No they do not. Light armor high damage builds, no matter what they are, do not get to stand there and "outheal" incoming damage from reasonably competent players. They LOS, streak, dodge, stealth, CC, whatever, or they die as they should. That you think you should be able to "stand and outheal," unlike ANY OTHER LA DAMAGE BUILD, and you obviously do think that because you are sticking on it, frames the disconnect in this debate nicely as to the ridiculous expectations of players who play shield stacking sorc and whine near infinitely about a counter.

Posters have claimed that people "switch into shieldbreaker" to easily "hunt sorcs" without also acknowledging that they have the exact same options available via different gear sets and skill bars. This also frames the disconnect. I posted a single viable sorc option with no shields and you snarked with some "doggo" comment. This also frames the issue with you perpetual nerfherders.

To reiterate, certain players expect to have very high damage, very high survivability and very high mobility at the same time... without meaningful counters. That's pure, unrealistic "for thee but not for me" thinking and there's really no rational response possible. It is what it is.

Fine, nerf shield breaker... in the same patch that they a)put a heavy diminishing return on stacked shields, and b) allow them to be critically hit.

EDIT: and the latest inanity I see here, that SB is a "hard counter" to the "entire class" also frames the disconnect in its absurdity.

Lord-Otto

Hm...
I think Miat's base of argumentation is the issue here. It seems he is running a REALLY squishy build and takes that for the norm.
Most good NBs I meet, Curse hits for 6k. Frag, if it hits, which it never does, for 8k. And the execute often fails to kill. Might be vampire passive. And I am already running more offense than should be good. I pack bigger punch than even Kodi.
I dunno... No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

Dorrino

Lord-Otto wrote: »

No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

Even though it's irrelevant to the topic, 6 impen, 55 resilient, 21k hp, 5/1/1 with minor protection from dark cloak.

Tanky enough for med armor?:)

Even using your numbers 21-8-6 = 7k. 20% of 21k = 4.2k. Difference after crit frag and crit curse = 2.8k. Exactly force pulse.

Lord-Otto

Dorrino wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

Even though it's irrelevant to the topic, 6 impen, 55 resilient, 21k hp, 5/1/1 with minor protection from dark cloak.

Tanky enough for med armor?:)

Oh, I think it's relevant.
Your HP seem to be the kicker. I get that low with Witchmother on a sorc. Many NBs mock me for that, running 24k themselves.

Vizier

Have to disagree. As annoying as it is to watch as my health inexplicably vanishes while spamming shields on my MagWard I have no choice but to see shieldbreaker and Oblivion damage to be one of the only counters to shield spamming sorcs. So..have to throw in a heal too..shrug. Now maybe Sorcs have to use Bolt Escape to actually escape.

Dorrino

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

Even though it's irrelevant to the topic, 6 impen, 55 resilient, 21k hp, 5/1/1 with minor protection from dark cloak.

Tanky enough for med armor?:)

Oh, I think it's relevant.
Your HP seem to be the kicker. I get that low with Witchmother on a sorc. Many NBs mock me for that, running 24k themselves.

You run 24k hp in heavy only.

Med armor tops at 22k. Mine's 21.9k to be precise.

There's no way to get to 24k unless you're willing to sacrifice about 3k max stam.

In any case even in your example 24k doesn't make a difference.

It increases the gap to 5.2k. la+pulse hit for 3-4k combined at least. 1-2k difference is irrelevant.

The thing is unless you go heavy increasing raw hp only worsen your effectiveness.

Pure unpreventable oneshots from stealth are for the most part gone.

Note: don't you think that 'you just need to have more hp' is a bit obvious to talk about?:) If it would help why wouldn't i do it?

Lord-Otto

Dorrino wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

Even though it's irrelevant to the topic, 6 impen, 55 resilient, 21k hp, 5/1/1 with minor protection from dark cloak.

Tanky enough for med armor?:)

Oh, I think it's relevant.
Your HP seem to be the kicker. I get that low with Witchmother on a sorc. Many NBs mock me for that, running 24k themselves.

You run 24k hp in heavy only.

Med armor tops at 22k. Mine's 21.9k to be precise.

There's no way to get to 24k unless you're willing to sacrifice about 3k max stam.

In any case even in your example 24k doesn't make a difference.

It increases the gap to 5.2k. la+pulse hit for 3-4k combined at least. 1-2k difference is irrelevant.

The thing is unless you go heavy increasing raw hp only worsen your effectiveness.

Pure unpreventable oneshots from stealth are for the most part gone.

Note: don't you think that 'you just need to have more hp' is a bit obvious to talk about?:) If it would help why wouldn't i do it?

'cause you want that damage of a rolldodge glasscannon.
(^_-)
Eh... I dunno. 22k, you say? Maybe a health monster piece is involved. Maybe emp buff. Maybe heavy. But it is usually 24k, and they don't die easily.

Kram8ion

Well this thread is going to make shield breaker popular even if it's crappy

Dorrino

Lord-Otto wrote: »

'cause you want that damage of a rolldodge glasscannon.

I'm running as tanky version of effective med armor as it gets.

Lord-Otto wrote: »

(^_-)
Eh... I dunno. 22k, you say? Maybe a health monster piece is involved. Maybe emp buff. Maybe heavy. But it is usually 24k, and they don't die easily.

2k more doesn't make a difference and i don't die easily at all:)

Kram8ion wrote: »

Well this thread is going to make shield breaker popular even if it's crappy

Shh! You!

How am i supposed to push sb meta if people like you give out the secret like this?!!

^_^

Azurya

I mainly didn´t use the Shieldbreaker unto I read this here. Remembering I have two complete sets somewhere, I put one set on my Stamblade and went for Cyro. There I mainly run with a small group of guildies, mostly under 10 ppl, every now and then we have above 12. Here I used the Shieldbreaker to put dmg on those having shields.
I did get a lot of kills, but not really more as running with my normal set-up.

I will test it on my Stammag, remembering her to do really well with Shieldbreaker combined with Vicious Death jewelry, 1 Armor pcs and 1 weapon on each bar.
And I will let you know. I mainly play CP-campaigns

Drummerx04

Vizier wrote: »

Have to disagree. As annoying as it is to watch as my health inexplicably vanishes while spamming shields on my MagWard I have no choice but to see shieldbreaker and Oblivion damage to be one of the only counters to shield spamming sorcs. So..have to throw in a heal too..shrug. Now maybe Sorcs have to use Bolt Escape to actually escape.

Right, so again the only counter to shieldbreaker suggested is to run the hell away. That's a really exciting and engaging gameplay counter for sure.

But in seriousness, bolt escape is surprisingly bad at escaping. Try bolt escaping from even 3 players in an open field... 1 is a templar spamming snares, one is a DK fossilizing you (both use gap closers), and the third just mounts up to chase you down for free. After about 3 streaks, it's a really bad idea to cast another because it will cost around 12k magicka.

bardx86

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hm...
I think Miat's base of argumentation is the issue here. It seems he is running a REALLY squishy build and takes that for the norm.
Most good NBs I meet, Curse hits for 6k. Frag, if it hits, which it never does, for 8k. And the execute often fails to kill. Might be vampire passive. And I am already running more offense than should be good. I pack bigger punch than even Kodi.
I dunno... No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

This! And i even think 8k Frag might even be a little high. Also now everyone and there mother is running an add-on that completely negates the Frag anyhow.

Biro123

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hm...
I think Miat's base of argumentation is the issue here. It seems he is running a REALLY squishy build and takes that for the norm.
Most good NBs I meet, Curse hits for 6k. Frag, if it hits, which it never does, for 8k. And the execute often fails to kill. Might be vampire passive. And I am already running more offense than should be good. I pack bigger punch than even Kodi.
I dunno... No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

This! And i even think 8k Frag might even be a little high. Also now everyone and there mother is running an add-on that completely negates the Frag anyhow.

I know ! I find it really disingenuous of Dorrino of all people to complain about getting hit by a frag.

Funny thing is, one of the reasons shields are so strong now is that most sorcs are combining it with dodge to protect those shields from the big hits.. And how do those sorcs know when to dodge those big hits and to conserve their precious Stam by not needlessly dodging? Well, there's an add-on for that.
There's a reason amberplasm is so popular on sorcs... I don't use it, but a bit of Stam recov from shacklebreaker and 4 well-fitted pieces does me fine.

Its been a long time since it was 'just shields'.. Even so, the odd dodge can only deal with burst/cc, not the constant plink of shieldbreaker every 0.6 seconds.

Drummerx04

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hm...
I think Miat's base of argumentation is the issue here. It seems he is running a REALLY squishy build and takes that for the norm.
Most good NBs I meet, Curse hits for 6k. Frag, if it hits, which it never does, for 8k. And the execute often fails to kill. Might be vampire passive. And I am already running more offense than should be good. I pack bigger punch than even Kodi.
I dunno... No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

This! And i even think 8k Frag might even be a little high. Also now everyone and there mother is running an add-on that completely negates the Frag anyhow.

I have hit 13k frags in Cyrodiil this patch, but that's an empowered frag with 3.2k spell damage and 42k mag... most likely the player was in full divines, full light armor, nothing in ironclad CP, no resists or damage reduction, etc.

Average frag hits on a crit against a "soft target" is around 7-9k if their build is less stupid than the above.

I generally agree with the 5-7k curse. I laugh when people claim they

Biro123 wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Hm...
I think Miat's base of argumentation is the issue here. It seems he is running a REALLY squishy build and takes that for the norm.
Most good NBs I meet, Curse hits for 6k. Frag, if it hits, which it never does, for 8k. And the execute often fails to kill. Might be vampire passive. And I am already running more offense than should be good. I pack bigger punch than even Kodi.
I dunno... No offense, Miat, but your stamblade seems unsuited for any general conclusions.

This! And i even think 8k Frag might even be a little high. Also now everyone and there mother is running an add-on that completely negates the Frag anyhow.

I know ! I find it really disingenuous of Dorrino of all people to complain about getting hit by a frag.

Funny thing is, one of the reasons shields are so strong now is that most sorcs are combining it with dodge to protect those shields from the big hits.. And how do those sorcs know when to dodge those big hits and to conserve their precious Stam by not needlessly dodging? Well, there's an add-on for that.
There's a reason amberplasm is so popular on sorcs... I don't use it, but a bit of Stam recov from shacklebreaker and 4 well-fitted pieces does me fine.

Its been a long time since it was 'just shields'.. Even so, the odd dodge can only deal with burst/cc, not the constant plink of shieldbreaker every 0.6 seconds.

Amused to see I'm not the only sorc who feels they much make judicious use of dodge roll to protect the shields from big damage.

I broke down how a triple shield stack costs something like 6.5-9k magicka in another thread (the variance comes from whether harness actually returns magicka 3 times) . I don't think anyone even read it and instead continue to think that shields are a free and unlimited press-this-button-to-not-die skill.

Ever see a magsorc fight a stamina dot build? Those things burn through shields and magicka especially with cost poisons as a result.

pieratsos

buttaface wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Literally every class gets to do that.

No they do not. Light armor high damage builds, no matter what they are, do not get to stand there and "outheal" incoming damage from reasonably competent players. They LOS, streak, dodge, stealth, CC, whatever, or they die as they should. That you think you should be able to "stand and outheal," unlike ANY OTHER LA DAMAGE BUILD, and you obviously do think that because you are sticking on it, frames the disconnect in this debate nicely as to the ridiculous expectations of players who play shield stacking sorc and whine near infinitely about a counter.

Posters have claimed that people "switch into shieldbreaker" to easily "hunt sorcs" without also acknowledging that they have the exact same options available via different gear sets and skill bars. This also frames the disconnect. I posted a single viable sorc option with no shields and you snarked with some "doggo" comment. This also frames the issue with you perpetual nerfherders.

To reiterate, certain players expect to have very high damage, very high survivability and very high mobility at the same time... without meaningful counters. That's pure, unrealistic "for thee but not for me" thinking and there's really no rational response possible. It is what it is.

Fine, nerf shield breaker... in the same patch that they a)put a heavy diminishing return on stacked shields, and b) allow them to be critically hit.

EDIT: and the latest inanity I see here, that SB is a "hard counter" to the "entire class" also frames the disconnect in its absurdity.

No normal sorc can sit still and "outheal" any incoming dmg. Stop stating ur bs as facts. Any competent player will chew through ur 19k shields faster than u can cast them. You need to streak through them, cc them otherwise u are going to die. The only builds that cant get through that are some tank builds that simply dont have enough dmg. But then again those builds can actually sit and "outheal" any dmg a competent player does including you even tho you do actually have a lot of dmg so why the hell should they also be able to kill you ?

No you didnt post a single viable sorc option without shields. You posted a light armor build with 2 stamina sets. Thats not viable. Thats the exact opposite. Any competent player will smoke you in 5 seconds and even full potatoes will kill you in 1vX. That build also cant kill anything with half a brain. A light armor build to be viable without shields needs some serious mitigation/healing and/or the ability to dodge. Sorcs dont have that and ur build most definitely dont have that.

And no, mutagen and blessing of restoration cannot replace healing ward. And please tell me more how a 4k heal attached to an ability with a cast time is the best selfheal in the game. The only burst heal available to sorcs is the pet that requires 2 slots, its not reliable and ironically requires a shield to stay alive. So even then you are still forced to play with a shield otherwise the pet will die and you will die as well.

I dont know where do you play but everything you posted just show that you have never done any PVP solo or in small groups at least. It just shows someone playing in zergs, getting carried by others and thinking he is the one doing the job. Or you are playing solo but you've set the bar so low to the point where killing potatoes in 1v1 is enough.

And if shieldstacking is an issue, you solve shieldstacking. You dont introduce a set that hardcounters that. The only thing you get this way, is to still have shieldstacking in the game that its still a problem for anyone not using shieldbreaker, and then you also have shieldstacker complaining about that specific set and for good reason.

So please tell me again how the hell did shieldbreaker solved the shieldstacking issue when every single day a new nerf sorc thread pops.

Devilhand

Biro123 wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

How am I doing it wrong, am i not hitting the button hard enough or something? 8-10k frags are a thing, against potatoes. Anyone with a good build they don't hit that hard.

Nope, you just have to hit button as everyone else. The problem is you lack knowledge, as most of the people complaining in here about SB.
Copy/pasting builds from youtube amd expecting to be sucesfull to those 1vX'ers streamers is being delusional. A build dont bring with it self skills, practice does and learning how to deal with what is killing you. Unfortunately to you guys, not my task to show you how to deal with it. It's your job.

Biro123 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Although there are the odd ones that you do manage to identify, or separate from the crowd - and if you're not in too much bad shape (unlikely) that you can land a burst combo - they always die.. Why? Because they have NEVER l
earned to defend themselves in the game - are terrible players and rely on a stupid set like this to make them effective.

This is the problem that people don't understand with it... The only counter is bursting the offender.... IF and this is a BIG "if" you can identify them - and IF they haven't a clue how to defend themselves

Dude, by the way you explain your problem: You are a wanna be player, copy/paste build from streamers and expect to do as well as they do in 1vX situations. Well, let me tell you a secret: THEY do DIE to, and a build doesnt mean being skillful, you need practice. You clearly show lack of it, identifying squishy or must die targets is part of 1vX 101 lecture lol.

Practice more, learn to adapt and quit crying.

Biro123 wrote: »

Biggest problems with shieldbreaker..:

1. You do not know if it present when you decide to engage.
2. It is VERY difficult to see who is using it to try to LOS or burst them
3. It makes total incompetent noobs into people you have to run from.
4. It is still rare enough that it takes a couple of seconds to register what is happening (which puts you 6k health down to start with)
5. It does nothing against non-shield-users - making it an all or nothing set.. Bad mechanic.
6. It does more damage than viper ever did - from range - and undefendable
7. Damage is too much.

See how the damage complaint comes last in the list of all that is wrong with it. ?

All these counter arguments of 'you're a noob if you cant heal through it' and L2P.. Well I find it really funny when aimed at Derra - one of the top sorcs on EU. Fair enough when aimed at me - I'm only average.. But I know the class inside-out - just not so great at implementing it! SO I'm fine with advice that is workable - that I have to practice at. I just havn't heard anything that's workable yet.

So, enlighten me - oh wise one, how to heal through it.? As an example.. I use the twilight matriarch.. It heals for around 8k.. with major defile - 5-6k. In combat with a light-attacking shealdbreaker.. he does 2200 every 0.6 seconds. Any shieldbreaker user with half a brain opens with lethal-arrow for the major defile - so it takes 1.8 seconds to do 6600 damage.
So to survive my rotation is... Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. The heal is relying on crits to out heal the damage over time. This is one of the strongest heals in the game, remember.
The ONLY way to free up 3 seconds to land a single burst is with resto ulti and you get one chance of that landing.. ofc somebody created an addon to make sure that burst usually fails... but that's a totally different subject. And that's assuming you've managed to identify the culprit...

Those who say 2.2k every 0.6 seconds is nothing... those are just BS claims too when one of the strongest heals in game struggles with it.

1) You dont know anyones build when you decide to engage, beside the ones with bubbles/orbs, imperial city tel-var stone one...
So you expect ZOS to get a big SB sign over their heads?. Hilarious.

2) No its not. Answered before, lack of experience clearly.

4) WAIT... here is your problem, below you say its 2.2k every 0,6 sec (which i doubt is accurate, more like per 1 sec), and realize on a couple of seconds? Come on, the first time you get hit YOU HEAR the UNIQUE sound of it. What happen later? 95% of sorcs spamm hardened ward non stop until they die 10-14 seconds later if the SB user just spamms Light Attacks. To my understanding, thats the sorcs fault for NOT knowing how to counter such a handicap set.
And yes, why handicap? because most of time only excels against magsorcs. While a Stam NB can get a LOT more of utility from other 5 pieces set.
Want to nerf SB? Sure, bring Viper back then. Quit complaining about everything.

5) Does nothing against non shield users. Right.. Thats why its not OP, it is not universally good, which means you will actually have to drop other 5 pieces bonus to be good against 1 class in particular. Fair trade.

6) Just no. You have no idea what youre talking about. I had explained before this.
Want to trade SB for Viper? Sure.

3 and 7) LOL. If you dieng to noobs spamming it, then you are the noob for not knowing how to counter it. Period.

Stop complaing about things because you lack the knowledge to counter it.

Perhaps you can ask the streamers you copy/paste builds to figure out a way to survive thru it... In the end, they are the ones sharing toxic builds out there, that over perform in zergs because followers fail trying to 1vX, and instead of blaming them self for the lack of experience they blame what ever is killing them.

And for those that think Cloak is "fine", No its not. There are plenty of skills that break it, as Dorrino has explained.
And for the dude crying about other stam classes not being able to wear medium armour? They can, its just more difficult and less eficient then wearing heavy sets with better trade off.



This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

So you're only answer is 'you're a noob'..? Hah. So you don't know how to counter it as a magsorc either?

I think its beneath me to even respond any further. I ain't joining you in that gutter.

No, im not only saying you are a noob, you simply dont understand what you read.
Im not the one complaining about SB, i am? Besides that I said multiple times I have no issues against it on my mag sorc in open world pvp, yet why the hell i have to share my way to counter it?
Do oyu really think crying in here will make the devs change anything? Youre loosing valuable time buddy, better start adapting.

Biro123

Of course you don't *have* to share anything - but then not sharing just kind of makes you look full of it.

Devilhand

pieratsos wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

Nah, this thread like every other sorc thread is full of clueless people like you when it comes to sorcs and still pretending to be experts.

Whos the clueless? We are? because we defend a SET bonus over a WHOLE class that overperforms since launch? Give me a break.
You cant see under your nose.

Imagine SB gets nerf, whats next? Knigh slayer? Torugs with oblivion? So you guys can roam cyrodil and never expect to die, IF you are such a great player you call your self to be.

I have at least 1 of each class, fully lvled and geared. Run solo 95% of the time and although lately 1vXing has become more difficult, due to the massive zergs (Cant say im wrong with that...), im not complaining because in the end i know i will die to +10 people.
On the other hand, you guys complaining about 1 set bonus and refusing to find a way to counter it. And, yes, there are ways to nullfil it.
Mag sorc is a noob friendly class, fast fingers with a good latency and FPS, and you can be unkillable. What other class can do that? You have the sustain, the mobility, the damage, and best defence in game. And yet you are complaining for 1, 5 piece set bonus?

And as Dorrino said, there are plenty of abilities/skills that are "shield breakers" against dodge, yet I am not complaining because its part of the game.
There are multiple skills/abilities that BREAK cloak (skill DOESNT work properly), and yet im not complaining.

Right now if you cant deal against a stam NB as a magicka class then you have problems. There are SO SO many counters that makes their class defence mechanism useless. Yet, I am not complaining in forums.

What is annoying is the fact you people cry about one set, a set that has been in the game for 2 years? because you dont know how to deal with it. But yet, dont realize the problem is not the set, its shield stacking and being a glasscannon at same time.

Lastly, its pvp you have to expect to die. There will always someone that can kill you, deal with it and stop being an snowflake.

Devilhand

Joy_Division wrote: »

Sorcerer is an "easy" class to play, very forgiving, can almost kill people by accident.

That being said, I'm not sure the class's ceiling is the highest. And I certainly don't think the game needs a gimmick set to counter them.

For all the talk on these forums about wanting a game predicated on skill, people here are defending a very dubious set that goes contrary to the idea that fights should be won by skilled gaemplay. As if ZoS needs any encouragement to make gimmick sets that address balance issues.

I would agree with those people who dislike sorcs about one thing, it is very difficult to impose your will and defeat a good sorc through brute force. It's hard because the sorc can almost instantly light you up, which in turn forces you to play more conservatively, and sorcerers in a sticky situations have very strong and easy "oh ***" buttons to quickly and effectively extricate themselves from danger. Even an average sorc can be difficult to kill if they don't make a mistake.

Does this make them OP or unique? I don't think so because every class played by someone who is good and experienced is hard to kill. You know the names of players you run into in cyrodiil that are virtual cockroaches and just don't die no matter what you through at them, every class, both mag and stam. I believe it easier to do this on a mag sorc, but I'm not convinced they are particularly better at it. Maybe in a 1v1 but no way when they have multiple players focusing them.

I feel the bet way to go is to throw shieldbreaker set into the garbage heap and adjust - as opposed to nerf - sorcs so the class is not so forgiving. I'd be very curious to see what would happen if harness+hardened stacking is removed and the streak penalty is also removed if the sorcerer hits players (thus using it tactically rather than just a panic run away method). It's worth trying rather than encourage gimmick gear (as if there isn't enough of that).

Agree.

But what would happen if this ever gets to testing is:

- SB gets nerfed => no buddy complains, people adapt.
- Shield stacking gets nerfed => Sorcs complain in PTS forums => Hardened ward will shield target twice after 6 seconds of initial application => goes live.

CyrusArya

Dorrino wrote: »

You ignored the major point here that was the combination of one of the strongest burst offense in the game combined with one of the strongest defense in the game topped with the simplicity of both - that are magicka sorcs currently.

@Dorrino

First of all, I don't think and never meant to imply that you are stupid or bad. I'm sorry if it came across like that. My disagreements are strictly on the topic of discussion, nothing personal. Unlike the vast majority of people who complain about sorcs, I know you're a skilled player with a deep understanding of mechanics.

Clearly, this debate is going nowhere. So I'm gonna make my peace by just reiterating my main points.

1.) Yes, on paper mag sorc has incredible burst....if it all lines up. In practice, its not that simple. Go duel a strong stam player on a magicka sorc and tell me how consistently you can line up that burst.

2.) It costs less to deal 15k damage than to throw up 15k in shields.

3.) Sorc has the most counter-able offensive scheme in the game, with only one source of guaranteed damage.

4.) A sorc is 2-3 hits from death under their shields at any given time.

Thats all. Of course sorc is a powerful class. And yes, I also agree that its a simple class with a relatively low skill floor. But its not so powerful that it eclipses other classes and builds. I much prefer to play stamina builds for 1v1 and small scale pvp these days, and there is a reason for that. But as always, we are all entitled to our own opinions.

Drakkdjinn

10 pages of sorc salt so far.

If a set that requires 5 pieces to be effective vs. 1 class and turns a player into a potato vs. anything but a shieldstacker is causing so much QQ, its a clear indication that shieldstacking is a hyper-prevalent & overtuned crutch amongst the PvP population. If shields were properly tuned the opportunity cost of wearing this set would be so high you would not see it anymore.

That said, I don't see the hordes of shieldbreakers these posters are moaning about, whereas EVERY PvP specc'd magsorc I encounter will be shieldstacking -- its too broken not to cheese with it.

Gan Xing

Minno wrote: »

Change the 5 piece to do 5k oblivion DMG on anyone with more than 30k Stam/mag.

This will be a nerf for everyone.
This will be a buff for us forumplars who can't play ESO at work and rely on forum-salt for our fix .

I wouldn't mind this at all, on my DK... people will be trying to spam this on me and i'll just be walking around wondering what they are doing

Also

Mindblowing:

Magicka poison...

Sureshawt

This joke of a thread still going?

Against good sorcs shield breaker is NOT a hard counter at all. Well played sorcs will streak away and easily heal through the measly damage that shield breaker does. At best it puts pressure on sorcs and forces them to move away and go on defensive briefly.

If it is intended to be an actual hard counter to shields like say the long list of hard counters to stealth/invisibility (you know the ones that actually completely nullify the skill) then it needs a buff.

pieratsos

Devilhand wrote: »

pieratsos wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

Nah, this thread like every other sorc thread is full of clueless people like you when it comes to sorcs and still pretending to be experts.

Whos the clueless? We are? because we defend a SET bonus over a WHOLE class that overperforms since launch? Give me a break.
You cant see under your nose.

Imagine SB gets nerf, whats next? Knigh slayer? Torugs with oblivion? So you guys can roam cyrodil and never expect to die, IF you are such a great player you call your self to be.

I have at least 1 of each class, fully lvled and geared. Run solo 95% of the time and although lately 1vXing has become more difficult, due to the massive zergs (Cant say im wrong with that...), im not complaining because in the end i know i will die to +10 people.
On the other hand, you guys complaining about 1 set bonus and refusing to find a way to counter it. And, yes, there are ways to nullfil it.
Mag sorc is a noob friendly class, fast fingers with a good latency and FPS, and you can be unkillable. What other class can do that? You have the sustain, the mobility, the damage, and best defence in game. And yet you are complaining for 1, 5 piece set bonus?

And as Dorrino said, there are plenty of abilities/skills that are "shield breakers" against dodge, yet I am not complaining because its part of the game.
There are multiple skills/abilities that BREAK cloak (skill DOESNT work properly), and yet im not complaining.

Right now if you cant deal against a stam NB as a magicka class then you have problems. There are SO SO many counters that makes their class defence mechanism useless. Yet, I am not complaining in forums.

What is annoying is the fact you people cry about one set, a set that has been in the game for 2 years? because you dont know how to deal with it. But yet, dont realize the problem is not the set, its shield stacking and being a glasscannon at same time.

Lastly, its pvp you have to expect to die. There will always someone that can kill you, deal with it and stop being an snowflake.

Yes you are clueless because you defend a set that is a hardcounter to an entire class. If you actually had a clue about how you achieve a balanced and good PVP you would ask for specific nerfs to the root of the problem which is shieldstacking. Not advocating for a set that removes skill from the game.

You dont care about balance or that sorc is OP. You just like ur easy kills and u dont want to lose that. And yes, oblivion, knight slayer and all that sh*t fall to the same category.

You are playing solo and u are wondering why its incredibly difficult to do it lately. Thats because of trash mechanics, sets and abilities like shieldbreaker, oblivion dmg, soul assaults, undodgeable birds etc. The list is endless. They remove skill from the game. If you cant outplay them then it just boils down to numbers and u end up with that zergy skilless PVP you have today. Thats how it works. First get a clue about what skilled gameplay is and then you can tell people to L2P.

And the funny thing is that you are missing the entire point. I dont need to deal with it. Its not about dying. Thats not even the point. So your attempt to be the smartass is a fail. The point is how you die. If i die because i got outplayed or i did my best and still died well ok. Fair game. I tried and failed. But when i die because i got screwed by stupid mechanics and not because i got outplayed then yes i have a problem. When you die to a complete potato that has no clue about what he is doing and he just spams left click then u have an issue.

Lord-Otto

Sureshawt wrote: »

This joke of a thread still going?

Against good sorcs shield breaker is NOT a hard counter at all. Well played sorcs will streak away and easily heal through the measly damage that shield breaker does. At best it puts pressure on sorcs and forces them to move away and go on defensive briefly.

If it is intended to be an actual hard counter to shields like say the long list of hard counters to stealth/invisibility (you know the ones that actually completely nullify the skill) then it needs a buff.

This has already been adressed.
If your answer is "just run away"... MagDK OP? Just run away. Vicious Death bomb OP? Just run away. Lag OP? Just run away from the keep.
Unfortunately, if you wanna contribute to your alliance and don't just wanna be a tryhard posting 1vX vids against potatoes, there are plenty fights you have to take. And those SB dudes will chase you down. With a zerg squad they can hide in.