Shieldbreaker escaped proc set nerfs

Dorrino · September 2017

@CyrusArya

CyrusArya wrote: »

You do have a reliable method to force the sorc to mess up at shielding, its by simply by properly applying pressure.

But as you confirmed above i won't be able to succeed at this. I can't outdamage the shields. And i can't prevent the sorc to casually renew the shields with a simple button press.

CyrusArya wrote: »

You don't need to bash every single conversion, just one or two at the right time.

Unfortunately i do. Against good sorcs. I tested that. Either i bash all or almost all of them, or he survives.

CyrusArya wrote: »

I agree with you that sorcs have the ability to stall out fights better than other classes..but a stall is a stall. A sorc that is constantly shielding is a sorc that isn't dealing damage.

But dealing damage is not the point of the discussion. The point is if i can force him to lose:)

CyrusArya wrote: »

But in a situation where the sorc is on the defensive more than the offensive, it will eventually lose the war of attrition.

This is where i disagree.

He won't be able to lose because dark conversion and healing ult.

That's what i mean. He can only lose if he decides to.

Like in yolo ults.

You can win a mag sorc playing recklessly. You can't otherwise.

CyrusArya wrote: »

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, its just not my experience that sorcs are particularly op vs a strong opponent, either playing as one or against one. But then again we may have a difference in perspective that influences this.

Yep, and again, OP strictly in the form of effectiveness to skills/efforts ratio.

I cannot die 1v1 vs a mag sorc if i don't make mistakes as well. The point in question is what's required for me to play perfectly, and what's required for a mag sorc.

A+ class vs say B+ class:)

Derra · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

@Derra

Obviously when i said 1v1 a bow sb spammer is not a problem for a mag sorc, i didn't mean the mag sorc standing in the middle of the field and outhealing bow sb light attacks while shielding non-stop:)

Mag sorc uses los and dodges to reduce pressure if necessary. Mag sorc chooses not to shield while the spammer is at range and go back to shielding when and if the guy charges in.

In the situation that you described you've been trolled by the guy at max range. Then why would you even shield, at the first place?

Obviously the guy won't be able to kill you from range, and if he decides to go melee, a good mag sorc won't let him get away.

So it's either the guy stays ranged all the time and you don't need to shield (while still damaging the guy with full sorc ranged burst) or he goes melee and won't be able to spam light bow sb.

@Sharee put it perfectly (still giggling). It feels like you prefer not to play around it and stick to the mentality "ima mag sorc, i should be able to tank anything'.

I just don´t use line of sight in duels. I think it´s just bad mannered bc using line of sight you can avoid 95% of all scenarios that get you killed. I think it´s flatout trolling. If you go down that path you can aswell just walk into a corner where your opponent eats more than 3 mines when gapclosing.

If a nb shieldbreakers you from medium range and you don´t cast a shield they cloak - now you basically ahve to shield or you will eat a blocked incap or fear incap (as in ambush from cloak does not decloak you - the incap does).
So the NB can bait a shield or if you don´t shield go for ambush fear incap putting you at ~50% health and draining 4k stam - at that point you have to shield or resto.
The just NB goes at range again and shieldbreakers just because or waits out restoult and repeats baiting shield or dmging the unshielded sorc.
Now the NB hast a ~10s window for the next incap where there will be no restoult available and the sorc won´t be at full hp either way.

If the fight starts with an active shield with shieldbreaker from sneak the sorc is 8k hp down within the first 1.2 s from receiving dmg without any soundcue for shieldbreaker.

Outside of porting to the next line of sight object there is no realitic option for a sorc to kill the NB or survive for an extended period of time.
I think when "don´t get hit" is the only option to survive it indicates that the underlying mechanic is overperforming.

The problem about the "ima magsorc i should tank anything" is. The classes defense is setup in that way. There is no alternative route you can go as a magsorc.
The class revolves around it´s classshield tanking dmg.
It´s not the most fun mechanic nor the most challenging (and i do agree it´s somewhat overperforming against - well other sustain setup magica classes and stamblades / dks - dmg setups should be and are able to break sorcs) and i think most sorcs would be glad if there were any alternatives - but there are none.
So what are you expecting sorcs to do realisticly?
I´d love for harness to be nonstackable for that matter - it would solve a lot of perceived issues with the class.

Imo you´re complaint is that a potatoemasher mashes potatoes. Stamblade/StamDK vs Magsorc is about the only 1v1 where i´d give the magsorc an albeit questionable edge at all.

Devilhand · September 2017

bardx86 wrote: »

How am I doing it wrong, am i not hitting the button hard enough or something? 8-10k frags are a thing, against potatoes. Anyone with a good build they don't hit that hard.

Nope, you just have to hit button as everyone else. The problem is you lack knowledge, as most of the people complaining in here about SB.
Copy/pasting builds from youtube amd expecting to be sucesfull to those 1vX'ers streamers is being delusional. A build dont bring with it self skills, practice does and learning how to deal with what is killing you. Unfortunately to you guys, not my task to show you how to deal with it. It's your job.

Biro123 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Although there are the odd ones that you do manage to identify, or separate from the crowd - and if you're not in too much bad shape (unlikely) that you can land a burst combo - they always die.. Why? Because they have NEVER l
earned to defend themselves in the game - are terrible players and rely on a stupid set like this to make them effective.

This is the problem that people don't understand with it... The only counter is bursting the offender.... IF and this is a BIG "if" you can identify them - and IF they haven't a clue how to defend themselves

Dude, by the way you explain your problem: You are a wanna be player, copy/paste build from streamers and expect to do as well as they do in 1vX situations. Well, let me tell you a secret: THEY do DIE to, and a build doesnt mean being skillful, you need practice. You clearly show lack of it, identifying squishy or must die targets is part of 1vX 101 lecture lol.

Practice more, learn to adapt and quit crying.

Biro123 wrote: »

Biggest problems with shieldbreaker..:

1. You do not know if it present when you decide to engage.
2. It is VERY difficult to see who is using it to try to LOS or burst them
3. It makes total incompetent noobs into people you have to run from.
4. It is still rare enough that it takes a couple of seconds to register what is happening (which puts you 6k health down to start with)
5. It does nothing against non-shield-users - making it an all or nothing set.. Bad mechanic.
6. It does more damage than viper ever did - from range - and undefendable
7. Damage is too much.

See how the damage complaint comes last in the list of all that is wrong with it. ?

All these counter arguments of 'you're a noob if you cant heal through it' and L2P.. Well I find it really funny when aimed at Derra - one of the top sorcs on EU. Fair enough when aimed at me - I'm only average.. But I know the class inside-out - just not so great at implementing it! SO I'm fine with advice that is workable - that I have to practice at. I just havn't heard anything that's workable yet.

So, enlighten me - oh wise one, how to heal through it.? As an example.. I use the twilight matriarch.. It heals for around 8k.. with major defile - 5-6k. In combat with a light-attacking shealdbreaker.. he does 2200 every 0.6 seconds. Any shieldbreaker user with half a brain opens with lethal-arrow for the major defile - so it takes 1.8 seconds to do 6600 damage.
So to survive my rotation is... Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. The heal is relying on crits to out heal the damage over time. This is one of the strongest heals in the game, remember.
The ONLY way to free up 3 seconds to land a single burst is with resto ulti and you get one chance of that landing.. ofc somebody created an addon to make sure that burst usually fails... but that's a totally different subject. And that's assuming you've managed to identify the culprit...

Those who say 2.2k every 0.6 seconds is nothing... those are just BS claims too when one of the strongest heals in game struggles with it.

1) You dont know anyones build when you decide to engage, beside the ones with bubbles/orbs, imperial city tel-var stone one...
So you expect ZOS to get a big SB sign over their heads?. Hilarious.

2) No its not. Answered before, lack of experience clearly.

4) WAIT... here is your problem, below you say its 2.2k every 0,6 sec (which i doubt is accurate, more like per 1 sec), and realize on a couple of seconds? Come on, the first time you get hit YOU HEAR the UNIQUE sound of it. What happen later? 95% of sorcs spamm hardened ward non stop until they die 10-14 seconds later if the SB user just spamms Light Attacks. To my understanding, thats the sorcs fault for NOT knowing how to counter such a handicap set.
And yes, why handicap? because most of time only excels against magsorcs. While a Stam NB can get a LOT more of utility from other 5 pieces set.
Want to nerf SB? Sure, bring Viper back then. Quit complaining about everything.

5) Does nothing against non shield users. Right.. Thats why its not OP, it is not universally good, which means you will actually have to drop other 5 pieces bonus to be good against 1 class in particular. Fair trade.

6) Just no. You have no idea what youre talking about. I had explained before this.
Want to trade SB for Viper? Sure.

3 and 7) LOL. If you dieng to noobs spamming it, then you are the noob for not knowing how to counter it. Period.

Stop complaing about things because you lack the knowledge to counter it.

Perhaps you can ask the streamers you copy/paste builds to figure out a way to survive thru it... In the end, they are the ones sharing toxic builds out there, that over perform in zergs because followers fail trying to 1vX, and instead of blaming them self for the lack of experience they blame what ever is killing them.

And for those that think Cloak is "fine", No its not. There are plenty of skills that break it, as Dorrino has explained.
And for the dude crying about other stam classes not being able to wear medium armour? They can, its just more difficult and less eficient then wearing heavy sets with better trade off.

This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

Derra · September 2017

Devilhand wrote: »

Stop complaing about things because you lack the knowledge to counter it.

What´s the counter to shieldbreaker apart from not getting hit?

Been asking that for quite a few pages now and in essence the only response i got (after arguing for two pages) - well better don´t get hit.

bardx86 · September 2017

Devilhand wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

How am I doing it wrong, am i not hitting the button hard enough or something? 8-10k frags are a thing, against potatoes. Anyone with a good build they don't hit that hard.

Nope, you just have to hit button as everyone else. The problem is you lack knowledge, as most of the people complaining in here about SB.
Copy/pasting builds from youtube amd expecting to be sucesfull to those 1vX'ers streamers is being delusional. A build dont bring with it self skills, practice does and learning how to deal with what is killing you. Unfortunately to you guys, not my task to show you how to deal with it. It's your job.

Biro123 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Although there are the odd ones that you do manage to identify, or separate from the crowd - and if you're not in too much bad shape (unlikely) that you can land a burst combo - they always die.. Why? Because they have NEVER l
earned to defend themselves in the game - are terrible players and rely on a stupid set like this to make them effective.

This is the problem that people don't understand with it... The only counter is bursting the offender.... IF and this is a BIG "if" you can identify them - and IF they haven't a clue how to defend themselves

Dude, by the way you explain your problem: You are a wanna be player, copy/paste build from streamers and expect to do as well as they do in 1vX situations. Well, let me tell you a secret: THEY do DIE to, and a build doesnt mean being skillful, you need practice. You clearly show lack of it, identifying squishy or must die targets is part of 1vX 101 lecture lol.

Practice more, learn to adapt and quit crying.

Biro123 wrote: »

Biggest problems with shieldbreaker..:

1. You do not know if it present when you decide to engage.
2. It is VERY difficult to see who is using it to try to LOS or burst them
3. It makes total incompetent noobs into people you have to run from.
4. It is still rare enough that it takes a couple of seconds to register what is happening (which puts you 6k health down to start with)
5. It does nothing against non-shield-users - making it an all or nothing set.. Bad mechanic.
6. It does more damage than viper ever did - from range - and undefendable
7. Damage is too much.

See how the damage complaint comes last in the list of all that is wrong with it. ?

All these counter arguments of 'you're a noob if you cant heal through it' and L2P.. Well I find it really funny when aimed at Derra - one of the top sorcs on EU. Fair enough when aimed at me - I'm only average.. But I know the class inside-out - just not so great at implementing it! SO I'm fine with advice that is workable - that I have to practice at. I just havn't heard anything that's workable yet.

So, enlighten me - oh wise one, how to heal through it.? As an example.. I use the twilight matriarch.. It heals for around 8k.. with major defile - 5-6k. In combat with a light-attacking shealdbreaker.. he does 2200 every 0.6 seconds. Any shieldbreaker user with half a brain opens with lethal-arrow for the major defile - so it takes 1.8 seconds to do 6600 damage.
So to survive my rotation is... Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. The heal is relying on crits to out heal the damage over time. This is one of the strongest heals in the game, remember.
The ONLY way to free up 3 seconds to land a single burst is with resto ulti and you get one chance of that landing.. ofc somebody created an addon to make sure that burst usually fails... but that's a totally different subject. And that's assuming you've managed to identify the culprit...

Those who say 2.2k every 0.6 seconds is nothing... those are just BS claims too when one of the strongest heals in game struggles with it.

1) You dont know anyones build when you decide to engage, beside the ones with bubbles/orbs, imperial city tel-var stone one...
So you expect ZOS to get a big SB sign over their heads?. Hilarious.

2) No its not. Answered before, lack of experience clearly.

4) WAIT... here is your problem, below you say its 2.2k every 0,6 sec (which i doubt is accurate, more like per 1 sec), and realize on a couple of seconds? Come on, the first time you get hit YOU HEAR the UNIQUE sound of it. What happen later? 95% of sorcs spamm hardened ward non stop until they die 10-14 seconds later if the SB user just spamms Light Attacks. To my understanding, thats the sorcs fault for NOT knowing how to counter such a handicap set.
And yes, why handicap? because most of time only excels against magsorcs. While a Stam NB can get a LOT more of utility from other 5 pieces set.
Want to nerf SB? Sure, bring Viper back then. Quit complaining about everything.

5) Does nothing against non shield users. Right.. Thats why its not OP, it is not universally good, which means you will actually have to drop other 5 pieces bonus to be good against 1 class in particular. Fair trade.

6) Just no. You have no idea what youre talking about. I had explained before this.
Want to trade SB for Viper? Sure.

3 and 7) LOL. If you dieng to noobs spamming it, then you are the noob for not knowing how to counter it. Period.

Stop complaing about things because you lack the knowledge to counter it.

Perhaps you can ask the streamers you copy/paste builds to figure out a way to survive thru it... In the end, they are the ones sharing toxic builds out there, that over perform in zergs because followers fail trying to 1vX, and instead of blaming them self for the lack of experience they blame what ever is killing them.

And for those that think Cloak is "fine", No its not. There are plenty of skills that break it, as Dorrino has explained.
And for the dude crying about other stam classes not being able to wear medium armour? They can, its just more difficult and less eficient then wearing heavy sets with better trade off.

This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

How in the world would you even begin to know my knowledge level in this game? Or skill for that matter? Who said anything about cookie cutter builds? Or dying? You presume to much sir. I can also do the same and say you only fight noobs.

ak_pvp · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Not defending shieldbreaker as a concept, its an all or nothing, no counter lazy mechanic, but most people wear it not because they are sorc haters, but because sorcs are the most common class in cyro, being undoubtedly the best for openworld. NBs and wardens run shields too, so it also counters them.

Derra · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Not defending shieldbreaker as a concept, its an all or nothing, no counter lazy mechanic, but most people wear it not because they are sorc haters, but because sorcs are the most common class in cyro, being undoubtedly the best for openworld. NBs and wardens run shields too, so it also counters them.

I´d like to dispute the statement of sorcs being the most common class.

On my NB - 1.5 million ap made in the past ~4 weeks i can kill basically anything i encounter open world.
39%nb 23% sorc 15% DK/templar rest warden.

On my Sorc - 22mio ap made since homestead - can´t kill permablock templars or DKs but most sorcs or nbs.
48% nb 26% sorc 12% DK 11% templar rest warden.

Sorcs are the most commong class you can see outside of zergs with "see" being the important part.

buttaface · September 2017

Derra wrote: »

Anyway @buttaface mind telling me which heal to slot on top of surge healingward and rapidregen to outheal shieldbreaker?

1. NO light armor high damage build (that isn't a Templar and even then) is supposed to stand there and "outheal" any incoming damage, not from SB, nor from the dozens if not hundreds of spike combos that do FAR more damage in far less time. The heal is to get you a -second- or two to react, streak, LOS, CC, stealth or other pot, etc. If your mindset is "outhealing" incoming damage, you better not be pretty much -any- high damage light armor build. The way you phrase the above reveals an unrealistic expectation that I think frames this issue accurately. Expecting to fight toe to toe in light armor without lots of evasive tactics... well, no one else gets to do that, why should sorcs?

2. Consider replacing healing ward and rapid with mutagen and blessing/combat prayer, always run defensive rune. Do what every other LA/MA low health high damage build does and juke with the tools you have, and sorcs have GOOD ones. Deal/Exchange is arguably the best self heal in the game, you just have to be aware of the environment before using it. Expect to die when outnumbered by decent players, everyone else other than low damage tanks does.

3. My sorc uses coward jewelry weapons and one body piece and prisoner's light impen pieces, 25k health in cyrodiil. It doesn't hit as hard, plenty hard though, and is -very- slippery with that level of magicka regen and mitigation while sprinting. Can streak all day, large stam regen and low sprint cost. No shields at all. Keeps rune up at all times. Always stays in stealth in between combat, still DIES LOTS. Tradeoffs.

SanTii.92 · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

@CyrusArya

CyrusArya wrote: »

You do have a reliable method to force the sorc to mess up at shielding, its by simply by properly applying pressure.

But as you confirmed above i won't be able to succeed at this. I can't outdamage the shields. And i can't prevent the sorc to casually renew the shields with a simple button press.

CyrusArya wrote: »

You don't need to bash every single conversion, just one or two at the right time.

Unfortunately i do. Against good sorcs. I tested that. Either i bash all or almost all of them, or he survives.

CyrusArya wrote: »

I agree with you that sorcs have the ability to stall out fights better than other classes..but a stall is a stall. A sorc that is constantly shielding is a sorc that isn't dealing damage.

But dealing damage is not the point of the discussion. The point is if i can force him to lose:)

CyrusArya wrote: »

But in a situation where the sorc is on the defensive more than the offensive, it will eventually lose the war of attrition.

This is where i disagree.

He won't be able to lose because dark conversion and healing ult.

That's what i mean. He can only lose if he decides to.

Like in yolo ults.

You can win a mag sorc playing recklessly. You can't otherwise.

CyrusArya wrote: »

I guess we will have to agree to disagree, its just not my experience that sorcs are particularly op vs a strong opponent, either playing as one or against one. But then again we may have a difference in perspective that influences this.

Yep, and again, OP strictly in the form of effectiveness to skills/efforts ratio.

I cannot die 1v1 vs a mag sorc if i don't make mistakes as well. The point in question is what's required for me to play perfectly, and what's required for a mag sorc.

A+ class vs say B+ class:)

You can't force a win agaisnt any class, as long as they just spam heavies and defensive ults. Not really a sorc thing.

Dorrino · September 2017

@Derra

Derra wrote: »

I just don´t use line of sight in duels.

I didn't realize we're talking about a duel between a magicka sorc and a bow light sb spammer:)

Do you stand in front of each other holding block and jump to indicate the duel started and then he proceeds to light attack you?:P

Derra wrote: »

I think it´s just bad mannered bc using line of sight you can avoid 95% of all scenarios that get you killed.

If you're incapable to hold the damage you use los or anything else at your disposal:)

Isn't it a bit weird to complain on the forums instead?

I can't take much damage without cloaking, and if cloak breaks should i go on the forums instead of adapting?:)

Derra wrote: »

I think it´s flatout trolling. If you go down that path you can aswell just walk into a corner where your opponent eats more than 3 mines when gapclosing.

it's about the fight.

Do you not los 5 people on you? Just tank them by spamming shield?

People don't los to troll. People los to survive. Do you really expect to survive without using terrain to your advantage?

Derra wrote: »

If a nb shieldbreakers you from medium range and you don´t cast a shield they cloak - now you basically ahve to shield or you will eat a blocked incap or fear incap (as in ambush from cloak does not decloak you - the incap does).
So the NB can bait a shield or if you don´t shield go for ambush fear incap putting you at ~50% health and draining 4k stam - at that point you have to shield or resto.

Well, if he cloaks at med range, you can steak away once:)

Or shield and steak to him.

He should have your curse on him so you'd get him out of cloak soon enough.

And do you not welcome detect pots in your life?:)

Derra wrote: »

The just NB goes at range again and shieldbreakers just because or waits out restoult and repeats baiting shield or dmging the unshielded sorc.

But why do you allow the nightblade to keep his distance, though?

In your own example he was at med range. 1-2 steaks - you're on top on him.

Derra wrote: »

Now the NB hast a ~10s window for the next incap where there will be no restoult available and the sorc won´t be at full hp either way.

You see, you either force him to melee range and won't be able to use sb effectively or you force him outside of the bow range. With the same result.

You either streak to or streak away.

Stamblades can't perma cloak.

Derra wrote: »

If the fight starts with an active shield with shieldbreaker from sneak the sorc is 8k hp down within the first 1.2 s from receiving dmg without any soundcue for shieldbreaker.

I still don't see how did you come up with 8k. That's 4 hits. First hit takes him out of stealth.

Derra wrote: »

Outside of porting to the next line of sight object there is no realitic option for a sorc to kill the NB or survive for an extended period of time.
I think when "don´t get hit" is the only option to survive it indicates that the underlying mechanic is overperforming.

But, well, 'don't get hit' is one of the main properties of most if not all hard hitting skills in the game.

You don't want to get hit by frags/snipes/leaps/meteors/incaps etc etc etc.

Maybe from a mag sorc perspective this looks different though:)

Derra wrote: »

The problem about the "ima magsorc i should tank anything" is. The classes defense is setup in that way. There is no alternative route you can go as a magsorc.
The class revolves around it´s classshield tanking dmg.
It´s not the most fun mechanic nor the most challenging (and i do agree it´s somewhat overperforming against - well other sustain setup magica classes and stamblades / dks - dmg setups should be and are able to break sorcs) and i think most sorcs would be glad if there were any alternatives - but there are none.
So what are you expecting sorcs to do realisticly?
I´d love for harness to be nonstackable for that matter - it would solve a lot of perceived issues with the class.

What are you expecting med armor to do against a huge list of hard hitting stuff going through dodge?

Only on mag sorcs we got curses, endless fury, dawnbreaker/meteor(if they run it).

Med armor adapted. Somehow.

If dawnbreaker + curse + endless oneshots you - block dawnbreaker. Predict and block it. Hard to predict? Get gud.

If curse + endless + soul assault prevent you from cloaking the burst - don't let you hp go below 80% if sorc got the ult. Hard to do that? Get gud.

Got hit by frags for 8k before the combo above? Block/dodge all the frags next time. Can't prevent all the frags? Get gud.

Etc etc.

And you complain about one trolling set.

Mag sorcs (and mag wardens) are the troll classes for med armor.

And yet med armor still is able to adapt.

That's unfair, but that's what people are adapting to.

Many give up and go heavy.

Many give up and complain on the forums.

The rest take it as a challenge and adapt.

buttaface wrote: »

The way you phrase the above reveals an unrealistic expectation that I think frames this issue accurately. Expecting to fight toe to toe in light armor without lots of evasive tactics... well, no one else gets to do that, why should sorcs?

Yep.

HiImRex · September 2017

@Dorrino eyyy wheres that regen tick add-on my friend? eagerly awaiting for you to share with the rest of the community so we can all perfect our play

Dorrino · September 2017

@HiImRex

HiImRex wrote: »

@Dorrino eyyy wheres that regen tick add-on my friend? eagerly awaiting for you to share with the rest of the community so we can all perfect our play

I'm not happy with it.

It kinda works. Ticks tick:) But i wasn't able to come up with a good way to present the information. So it would be noticeable when you need it and ignorable when you don't.

It's not a technical challenge. It's a UI/UX challenge that i wasn't able to solve yet.

Dorrino · September 2017

SanTii.92 wrote: »

You can't force a win agaisnt any class, as long as they just spam heavies and defensive ults. Not really a sorc thing.

It's not just sorc thing.

The sorc thing is overwhelming damage on top of this type of survivability.

Mag warden can turtle with trees as well, as long as he's in heavy and thus having a substantially lesser burst than in light.

Mag sorcs are unique in this regard because they can have both.

Biro123 · September 2017

Devilhand wrote: »

bardx86 wrote: »

How am I doing it wrong, am i not hitting the button hard enough or something? 8-10k frags are a thing, against potatoes. Anyone with a good build they don't hit that hard.

Nope, you just have to hit button as everyone else. The problem is you lack knowledge, as most of the people complaining in here about SB.
Copy/pasting builds from youtube amd expecting to be sucesfull to those 1vX'ers streamers is being delusional. A build dont bring with it self skills, practice does and learning how to deal with what is killing you. Unfortunately to you guys, not my task to show you how to deal with it. It's your job.

Biro123 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Although there are the odd ones that you do manage to identify, or separate from the crowd - and if you're not in too much bad shape (unlikely) that you can land a burst combo - they always die.. Why? Because they have NEVER l
earned to defend themselves in the game - are terrible players and rely on a stupid set like this to make them effective.

This is the problem that people don't understand with it... The only counter is bursting the offender.... IF and this is a BIG "if" you can identify them - and IF they haven't a clue how to defend themselves

Dude, by the way you explain your problem: You are a wanna be player, copy/paste build from streamers and expect to do as well as they do in 1vX situations. Well, let me tell you a secret: THEY do DIE to, and a build doesnt mean being skillful, you need practice. You clearly show lack of it, identifying squishy or must die targets is part of 1vX 101 lecture lol.

Practice more, learn to adapt and quit crying.

Biro123 wrote: »

Biggest problems with shieldbreaker..:

1. You do not know if it present when you decide to engage.
2. It is VERY difficult to see who is using it to try to LOS or burst them
3. It makes total incompetent noobs into people you have to run from.
4. It is still rare enough that it takes a couple of seconds to register what is happening (which puts you 6k health down to start with)
5. It does nothing against non-shield-users - making it an all or nothing set.. Bad mechanic.
6. It does more damage than viper ever did - from range - and undefendable
7. Damage is too much.

See how the damage complaint comes last in the list of all that is wrong with it. ?

All these counter arguments of 'you're a noob if you cant heal through it' and L2P.. Well I find it really funny when aimed at Derra - one of the top sorcs on EU. Fair enough when aimed at me - I'm only average.. But I know the class inside-out - just not so great at implementing it! SO I'm fine with advice that is workable - that I have to practice at. I just havn't heard anything that's workable yet.

So, enlighten me - oh wise one, how to heal through it.? As an example.. I use the twilight matriarch.. It heals for around 8k.. with major defile - 5-6k. In combat with a light-attacking shealdbreaker.. he does 2200 every 0.6 seconds. Any shieldbreaker user with half a brain opens with lethal-arrow for the major defile - so it takes 1.8 seconds to do 6600 damage.
So to survive my rotation is... Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. Shield. Heal. The heal is relying on crits to out heal the damage over time. This is one of the strongest heals in the game, remember.
The ONLY way to free up 3 seconds to land a single burst is with resto ulti and you get one chance of that landing.. ofc somebody created an addon to make sure that burst usually fails... but that's a totally different subject. And that's assuming you've managed to identify the culprit...

Those who say 2.2k every 0.6 seconds is nothing... those are just BS claims too when one of the strongest heals in game struggles with it.

1) You dont know anyones build when you decide to engage, beside the ones with bubbles/orbs, imperial city tel-var stone one...
So you expect ZOS to get a big SB sign over their heads?. Hilarious.

2) No its not. Answered before, lack of experience clearly.

4) WAIT... here is your problem, below you say its 2.2k every 0,6 sec (which i doubt is accurate, more like per 1 sec), and realize on a couple of seconds? Come on, the first time you get hit YOU HEAR the UNIQUE sound of it. What happen later? 95% of sorcs spamm hardened ward non stop until they die 10-14 seconds later if the SB user just spamms Light Attacks. To my understanding, thats the sorcs fault for NOT knowing how to counter such a handicap set.
And yes, why handicap? because most of time only excels against magsorcs. While a Stam NB can get a LOT more of utility from other 5 pieces set.
Want to nerf SB? Sure, bring Viper back then. Quit complaining about everything.

5) Does nothing against non shield users. Right.. Thats why its not OP, it is not universally good, which means you will actually have to drop other 5 pieces bonus to be good against 1 class in particular. Fair trade.

6) Just no. You have no idea what youre talking about. I had explained before this.
Want to trade SB for Viper? Sure.

3 and 7) LOL. If you dieng to noobs spamming it, then you are the noob for not knowing how to counter it. Period.

Stop complaing about things because you lack the knowledge to counter it.

Perhaps you can ask the streamers you copy/paste builds to figure out a way to survive thru it... In the end, they are the ones sharing toxic builds out there, that over perform in zergs because followers fail trying to 1vX, and instead of blaming them self for the lack of experience they blame what ever is killing them.

And for those that think Cloak is "fine", No its not. There are plenty of skills that break it, as Dorrino has explained.
And for the dude crying about other stam classes not being able to wear medium armour? They can, its just more difficult and less eficient then wearing heavy sets with better trade off.

This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

So you're only answer is 'you're a noob'..? Hah. So you don't know how to counter it as a magsorc either?

I think its beneath me to even respond any further. I ain't joining you in that gutter.

CyrusArya · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

But as you confirmed above i won't be able to succeed at this. I can't outdamage the shields. And i can't prevent the sorc to casually renew the shields with a simple button press.

[........]

But dealing damage is not the point of the discussion. The point is if i can force him to lose:)

No, thats not what I confirmed. What I said is you cant burst thru a good sorcs shields in one go. You absolutely can out damage the shields and the resources it takes to sustain em over time. Dealing damage is entirely the point of the discussion, and properly dealing damage is 100% how you force a sorc to lose.

Biro123 · September 2017

ak_pvp wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

For me? Almost every time I come across one.

Why? because they ALWAYS hide in packs, you never know they are there till they engage - and they will chase you to the ends of the earth while you're still trying to figure out which one of them is spamming it. Then you get the T-bag - because EVERY SINGLE shieldbrekaer user is a biased sorc-hater. Basically if they weren't, then they wouldn't be running it - but the fact that I have NEVER been killed with shieldbreaker without a t-bag kind of proves it.

Not defending shieldbreaker as a concept, its an all or nothing, no counter lazy mechanic, but most people wear it not because they are sorc haters, but because sorcs are the most common class in cyro, being undoubtedly the best for openworld. NBs and wardens run shields too, so it also counters them.

I can only speak from experience.. Its rare I get TBagged in game, but I have never been killed by a shieldbreaker user without also getting t-bagged.

I think some of the bile and hatred thrown out in this thread by those defending this set along with attempts at turning it into anorher nerf-sorcs thread kind of reinforces my view on that.

HiImRex · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

@HiImRex

HiImRex wrote: »

@Dorrino eyyy wheres that regen tick add-on my friend? eagerly awaiting for you to share with the rest of the community so we can all perfect our play

I'm not happy with it.

It kinda works. Ticks tick:) But i wasn't able to come up with a good way to present the information. So it would be noticeable when you need it and ignorable when you don't.

It's not a technical challenge. It's a UI/UX challenge that i wasn't able to solve yet.

cool good luck with that one

. Also you know how confusing it is to have Derra and Dorrino the two people whose names I confused all the time arguing about something. Really confusing.

Dorrino · September 2017

@CyrusArya

CyrusArya wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

But as you confirmed above i won't be able to succeed at this. I can't outdamage the shields. And i can't prevent the sorc to casually renew the shields with a simple button press.

[........]

But dealing damage is not the point of the discussion. The point is if i can force him to lose:)

No, thats not what I confirmed. What I said is you cant burst thru a good sorcs shields in one go. You absolutely can out damage the shields and the resources it takes to sustain em over time. Dealing damage is entirely the point of the discussion, and properly dealing damage is 100% how you force a sorc to lose.

My experience strongly implies that you can't win by outdamaging propely maintained shield stack of a mag sorc.

But, once again, i presume you can support your claim.

Please take a good mag sorc. Faso or Kodi would do - and demonstrate it to us all.

I can personally ask Kodi to participate.

Doing that 2/3 times would prove your point and i'll go back learning to get good.

If you need some motivation i can spare say 100k gold if you succeed.

I'll ask them to record the fight as well, so we all would have the evidence for further discussions.

Note: we're talking about your claim that you can outdamage the shield stack specifically. So your goal would be to win by pure damage without unlucky (for the mag sorc) cc. Reliably demonstrating it would prove your point.

Derra · September 2017

buttaface wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Anyway @buttaface mind telling me which heal to slot on top of surge healingward and rapidregen to outheal shieldbreaker?

1. NO light armor high damage build (that isn't a Templar and even then) is supposed to stand there and "outheal" any incoming damage, not from SB, nor from the dozens if not hundreds of spike combos that do FAR more damage in far less time. The heal is to get you a -second- or two to react, streak, LOS, CC, stealth or other pot, etc. If your mindset is "outhealing" incoming damage, you better not be pretty much -any- high damage light armor build. The way you phrase the above reveals an unrealistic expectation that I think frames this issue accurately. Expecting to fight toe to toe in light armor without lots of evasive tactics... well, no one else gets to do that, why should sorcs?

Literally every class gets to do that.
NB, Templar, Warden, and DK all can choose to run light armor without being forced to run shields along with it since morrowind hit.

buttaface wrote: »

2. Consider replacing healing ward and rapid with mutagen and blessing/combat prayer, always run defensive rune. Do what every other LA/MA low health high damage build does and juke with the tools you have, and sorcs have GOOD ones. Deal/Exchange is arguably the best self heal in the game, you just have to be aware of the environment before using it. Expect to die when outnumbered by decent players, everyone else other than low damage tanks does.

3. My sorc uses coward jewelry weapons and one body piece and prisoner's light impen pieces, 25k health in cyrodiil. It doesn't hit as hard, plenty hard though, and is -very- slippery with that level of magicka regen and mitigation while sprinting. Can streak all day, large stam regen and low sprint cost. No shields at all. Keeps rune up at all times. Always stays in stealth in between combat, still DIES LOTS. Tradeoffs.

I guess i could try to argue with my doggos on that one. I´ll do that.

Dorrino wrote: »

@Derra

Derra wrote: »

I just don´t use line of sight in duels.

I didn't realize we're talking about a duel between a magicka sorc and a bow light sb spammer:)

Do you stand in front of each other holding block and jump to indicate the duel started and then he proceeds to light attack you?:P

Derra wrote: »

I think it´s just bad mannered bc using line of sight you can avoid 95% of all scenarios that get you killed.

If you're incapable to hold the damage you use los or anything else at your disposal:)

Isn't it a bit weird to complain on the forums instead?

I can't take much damage without cloaking, and if cloak breaks should i go on the forums instead of adapting?:)

Derra wrote: »

I think it´s flatout trolling. If you go down that path you can aswell just walk into a corner where your opponent eats more than 3 mines when gapclosing.

it's about the fight.

Do you not los 5 people on you? Just tank them by spamming shield?

People don't los to troll. People los to survive. Do you really expect to survive without using terrain to your advantage?

Derra wrote: »

If a nb shieldbreakers you from medium range and you don´t cast a shield they cloak - now you basically ahve to shield or you will eat a blocked incap or fear incap (as in ambush from cloak does not decloak you - the incap does).
So the NB can bait a shield or if you don´t shield go for ambush fear incap putting you at ~50% health and draining 4k stam - at that point you have to shield or resto.

Well, if he cloaks at med range, you can steak away once:)

Or shield and steak to him.

He should have your curse on him so you'd get him out of cloak soon enough.

And do you not welcome detect pots in your life?:)

Derra wrote: »

The just NB goes at range again and shieldbreakers just because or waits out restoult and repeats baiting shield or dmging the unshielded sorc.

But why do you allow the nightblade to keep his distance, though?

In your own example he was at med range. 1-2 steaks - you're on top on him.

Derra wrote: »

Now the NB hast a ~10s window for the next incap where there will be no restoult available and the sorc won´t be at full hp either way.

You see, you either force him to melee range and won't be able to use sb effectively or you force him outside of the bow range. With the same result.

You either streak to or streak away.

Stamblades can't perma cloak.

Derra wrote: »

If the fight starts with an active shield with shieldbreaker from sneak the sorc is 8k hp down within the first 1.2 s from receiving dmg without any soundcue for shieldbreaker.

I still don't see how did you come up with 8k. That's 4 hits. First hit takes him out of stealth.

Derra wrote: »

Outside of porting to the next line of sight object there is no realitic option for a sorc to kill the NB or survive for an extended period of time.
I think when "don´t get hit" is the only option to survive it indicates that the underlying mechanic is overperforming.

But, well, 'don't get hit' is one of the main properties of most if not all hard hitting skills in the game.

You don't want to get hit by frags/snipes/leaps/meteors/incaps etc etc etc.

Maybe from a mag sorc perspective this looks different though:)

Derra wrote: »

The problem about the "ima magsorc i should tank anything" is. The classes defense is setup in that way. There is no alternative route you can go as a magsorc.
The class revolves around it´s classshield tanking dmg.
It´s not the most fun mechanic nor the most challenging (and i do agree it´s somewhat overperforming against - well other sustain setup magica classes and stamblades / dks - dmg setups should be and are able to break sorcs) and i think most sorcs would be glad if there were any alternatives - but there are none.
So what are you expecting sorcs to do realisticly?
I´d love for harness to be nonstackable for that matter - it would solve a lot of perceived issues with the class.

What are you expecting med armor to do against a huge list of hard hitting stuff going through dodge?

Only on mag sorcs we got curses, endless fury, dawnbreaker/meteor(if they run it).

Med armor adapted. Somehow.

If dawnbreaker + curse + endless oneshots you - block dawnbreaker. Predict and block it. Hard to predict? Get gud.

If curse + endless + soul assault prevent you from cloaking the burst - don't let you hp go below 80% if sorc got the ult. Hard to do that? Get gud.

Got hit by frags for 8k before the combo above? Block/dodge all the frags next time. Can't prevent all the frags? Get gud.

Etc etc.

And you complain about one trolling set.

Mag sorcs (and mag wardens) are the troll classes for med armor.

And yet med armor still is able to adapt.

That's unfair, but that's what people are adapting to.

Many give up and go heavy.

Many give up and complain on the forums.

The rest take it as a challenge and adapt.

buttaface wrote: »

The way you phrase the above reveals an unrealistic expectation that I think frames this issue accurately. Expecting to fight toe to toe in light armor without lots of evasive tactics... well, no one else gets to do that, why should sorcs?

Yep.

You agreed earlier that you basically can´t die to a sorc unless you jump into mines on a nb.

Also i specifically stated i don´t los in 1v1 situations - because average and above players on open world builds have an easy enough time to force a draw in most situations without resorting to silly line of sight games.
No idea why you´d come up with 5v1 suddenly.

Now you want the sorc to engange into the nb out of his mines, use one of the two avaialbe burst heals not to heal but to counter cloak (hint - it does not as cloak still forcemisses projectiles even with potion active) and use an offensive ultimate to top it off?
Just a question - what if the NB survives - which basically any decent nb does?

Thank you for telling me i can streak away though. I mentioned that option myself in the first post.

As for how do i get to 8k dmg: 0s sorc gets hit by first lightattack + glyphe 2125 + 16xx, 0.6s lightattack 2125, 1.2s 2125
The fight starts when the first attack lands on the sorc - after which it takes 1.2s for the next two lightattacks to land of which only the last produces the sb soundcue.

Spare me that "last hero of mediumarmor" nonsense.
I don´t see too many mediumarmor players adapt particularly well but just bc mediumarmor is in a tough spot it isn´t in any way a justification for sb to exist in it´s current form.
Two wrongs don´t make a right somehow - atleast for me they don´t. You seem to be of a different opinion.

CyrusArya · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

My experience strongly implies that you can't win by outdamaging propely maintained shield stack of a mag sorc.

But, once again, i presume you can support your claim.

Please take a good mag sorc. Faso or Kodi would do - and demonstrate it to us all.

Last time I dueled Kodi on his sorc it was with my heavy armor stam sorc, and it ended in a draw after about 10 minutes. I think you are misinterpreting my claims tho. Obviously sorc is a powerful class, and I am not claiming I can beat any sorc every time. What I am saying is, the class is not particularly overpowered. In a fight between a sorc and any other class, between equally skilled opponents, the match will be competitive. Because it is fairly balanced. Wether you win or lose, you won or lost to the player....not the class. There absolutely is counter play to sorcs that does not require shield breaker.

The problem is, players like you who have an agenda against the class flat out refuse to see or understand the fight from the sorc's perspective. All you see is the endless damage being absorbed, but not the strain on the resources or more importantly the fact that a sorc is at any given time 2-3 hits away from dying under the shields. You don't win vs a sorc by out damaging the shields, and thats not at all what im claiming. You win vs a sorc by maintaining pressure over time till they cannot maintain the shields, or by catching em with the burst in a momentary lapse of shielding.

But you don't care for the reasoning or logic or perspective, you just wanna rationalize that shield breaker is a reasonable and fair counter because sorcs are just plain overpowered. Again, I would just suggest that maybe as a eternal hunt stamblade your perspective is skewed. Sorc is very powerful against your playstyle. Against a stamplar, or heavy armor stamina bleed build, or a magicka dk, or a magicka nb? Not so much.

Dorrino · September 2017

@Derra

Derra wrote: »

You agreed earlier that you basically can´t die to a sorc unless you jump into mines on a nb.

Not exactly that. I as a player won't die to a mag sorc if i don't make mistakes.

Jumping into the mines part was the reply to your statements about silly nightblades doing that. And the meaning was that if they don't pop your mines - they are not fighting you. I.e. they can't not to pop them if they intend to fight you.

Derra wrote: »

Also i specifically stated i don´t los in 1v1 situations - because average and above players on open world builds have an easy enough time to force a draw in most situations without resorting to silly line of sight games.

Therefore you should have no problems forcing a draw vs your light attacks sb spammer?

Then could you remind me the point of this discussion?:)

Derra wrote: »

No idea why you´d come up with 5v1 suddenly.

I don't know how far your refusal to los stretches.

Derra wrote: »

Now you want the sorc to engange into the nb out of his mines, use one of the two avaialbe burst heals not to heal but to counter cloak (hint - it does not as cloak still forcemisses projectiles even with potion active) and use an offensive ultimate to top it off?

As far as i know it doesn't force miss projectiles unless he cloaks at the same time.

Derra wrote: »

Just a question - what if the NB survives - which basically any decent nb does?

Then he's still visible to you (detect) and is at 30% (say) hp from your burst. Still can't cloak. Should i teach you what to do next?

Derra wrote: »

Thank you for telling me i can streak away though. I mentioned that option myself in the first post.

You complained you didn't know what to do. it wasn't obvious which options have you considered.

Derra wrote: »

As for how do i get to 8k dmg: 0s sorc gets hit by first lightattack + glyphe 2125 + 16xx, 0.6s lightattack 2125, 1.2s 2125
The fight starts when the first attack lands on the sorc - after which it takes 1.2s for the next two lightattacks to land of which only the last produces the sb soundcue.

I can write you an addon that notifies you about shieldbreaker specifically. WIll it solve this problem?:)

Derra wrote: »

Spare me that "last hero of mediumarmor" nonsense.

Right when you start sparing me of your 'i can't do anything about shieldbreaker, besides i know what to do exactly about shieldbreaker, but don't want to, because mag sorcs are supposed to tank through any damage thrown at them':)

Shieldbreaker by itself can't be the problem if functionality serves an important purpose.

We're still waiting on Arya to prove us that mag sorcs are perfectly fine. Until that mag sorcs are overperforming and shieldbreaker fixes that pvp balance shortcoming.

Derra wrote: »

I don´t see too many mediumarmor players adapt particularly well but just bc mediumarmor is in a tough spot it isn´t in any way a justification for sb to exist in it´s current form.

But it is a justification to help underperforming specs to manage overperforming. What would they do if sb gets removed?:) Reroll mag sorcs?:)

Derra wrote: »

Two wrongs don´t make a right somehow - atleast for me they don´t. You seem to be of a different opinion.

The major 'wrong' here is the state of mag sorcs specifically.

If we can't correct it, we can at least use some countermeasures.

Derra · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Also i specifically stated i don´t los in 1v1 situations - because average and above players on open world builds have an easy enough time to force a draw in most situations without resorting to silly line of sight games.

Therefore you should have no problems forcing a draw vs your light attacks sb spammer?

Then could you remind me the point of this discussion?:)

Yay you basically have no arguments left so you´re just trolling.
Yadda yadda yadda bla bla insert random response here.
Considering all else. What @CyrusArya wrote.

I personally think you are either not good enough or unwilling to form a reflected opinion on the matter at hand or magica sorc as a whole.
I don´t know any good player who still considers magsorcs particularly strong let alone overperforming (outside of dueling petbuilds). Only potatoes do that. So continue on potating or trolling whatever you prefer

pieratsos · September 2017

Devilhand wrote: »

This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

Nah, this thread like every other sorc thread is full of clueless people like you when it comes to sorcs and still pretending to be experts.

Dorrino · September 2017

@Derra

Derra wrote: »

Yay you basically have no arguments left so you´re just trolling.
Yadda yadda yadda bla bla insert random response here.
Considering all else. What @CyrusArya wrote.

This is unfortunate that you decided to treat me like this:)

I don't see a discussion anymore since you told us you don't have problems avoiding the shieldbreaker spammer.

Thus the topic is closed.

Derra wrote: »

I personally think you are either not good enough or unwilling to form a reflected opinion on the matter at hand or magica sorc as a whole.

I personally think a lot of things. And about how good i am, you can ask people playing NA Vivec.

Ironically though, you use ad hominem argument, when you complain you can't solve a trivial task to survive vs a shield breaker spammer:)

But since we know now you're perfectly capable to survive and you just don't want to take simple additional steps for it - this concludes our discussion.

Please don't forget to inform me if you need that addon that notifies you about shieldbreaker or not:)

Derra wrote: »

I don´t know any good player who still considers magsorcs particularly strong let alone overperforming (outside of dueling petbuilds). Only potatoes do that. So continue on potating or trolling whatever you prefer

Well, you found one. And i supported my claims strong enough. It's your choice to understand it or not.

SanTii.92 · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

SanTii.92 wrote: »

You can't force a win agaisnt any class, as long as they just spam heavies and defensive ults. Not really a sorc thing.

It's not just sorc thing.

The sorc thing is overwhelming damage on top of this type of survivability.

Mag warden can turtle with trees as well, as long as he's in heavy and thus having a substantially lesser burst than in light.

Mag sorcs are unique in this regard because they can have both.

While sorcs have a strong burst, it's also the most telegraphed and easy to avoid, and on top of that they just lack the sustained pressure pretty much any other class have.

About turtling, any class is capable of on any spec, if that's their intention, no idea what sorcs have to do with that.

So not sure what's your point here. Msorcs are by no means Op, and shieldbreaker is really a cheap mechanic that should be reworked.

Drummerx04 · September 2017

Devilhand wrote: »

This thread/discussion was, is and will be a "Im a mag sorc that runs glasscannon builds, and im dieng to Shieldbreaker. NERF IT". Even Lilith gived up answering back, because in the end you all know you are the ones that are wrong, because you dont want to adapt.

Oh look, I went to sleep and when I woke up I see a sorc hater using my absence as a way to reinforce his opinions...
Also, I think it was you and I don't feel like finding the post to quote again, but I would 100% take viper (pre lastest nerf) over shieldbreaker all day long.

Dorrino wrote: »

Yep, and again, OP strictly in the form of effectiveness to skills/efforts ratio.

I cannot die 1v1 vs a mag sorc if i don't make mistakes as well. The point in question is what's required for me to play perfectly, and what's required for a mag sorc.

A+ class vs say B+ class:)

Oh this should be good, what exactly is required for you to play perfectly that is so much harder?

You have to make sure vigor/rally stays up? I have to make sure shields stay up.

You have to dodge roll hard hitting attacks? I have to dodge or shield/block(CC) hard hitting attacks.

Too many people on you at the same time, cloak/shade port? I have to streak and usually mistform (purge the snares that are ALWAYS on me).

Got CC'd so you immediately break free and anicancel with dodge roll? Usually I have to do the same because global cooldowns+server delay often mean an additional attack will hit me unshielded.

Took a little too much damage pressure so you recast rally for a bit of heal burst? I took too much pressure so I cast healing ward.

Too many DoTs on you, just cloak and they stop dealing damage while you heal. I have to shield the damage on top of all the other damage I may be taking (could purge some of it depending on specific build).

Too many people coming after you and it's time to escape, you use shade port to traverse 3 levels of a tower instantly through LoS and cloak away? I have to streak and hope the people chasing me don't have gap closers.

If your defenses lapse or you get CC'd at the wrong time, you die. If my defenses lapse or I get CC'd at the wrong time, I die.

I'm failing to see the significant difference in survival tactics. In general replace LoS+dodge+hots with LoS+shield+heal shield and that's that.

There are differences in how the two builds would approach the same situation, but you act like sorcs can just stand and tank 15+ people and kill them all with a casual wave of the hand, while the poor defenseless stamblades have to dodge and cloak away from 15+ people while on the edge of death the whole time... the reality is exactly the same for sorcs. When I kite around that many people I'm really just wasting as much of their time as I can with no real hope of coming out on top.
If a sorc can win (actually win not just stalemate) a 1v3+, then almost all of those players were crap players or they got so tunnel visioned that they didn't think they would need to defend themselves and cast no self or ally heals, AND they don't rez each other.

Maybe one day I'll find the motivation to make a "miss/dodge" montage. Just hundreds upon hundreds of miss/dodge prompts, followed by uncloaking 2 seconds later with full health into an incap burst combo.

Dorrino · September 2017

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Oh this should be good, what exactly is required for you to play perfectly that is so much harder?

Easy. Play one. It's not that hard to level a stamblade.

Over the course of this thread alone you demonstrated blatant lack of knowledge about nightblades as a whole and stamblades specifically.

Med stamblade can literally be bursted from 100% to 0% in la+forcepulse->frags+curse+explosion.

And curse+explosion part is purely unavoidable.

So during the fight a stamblade has to play around dying each 3.5sec.

No jokes here. Each 3.5sec i expect to die unless i do very specific things to prevent it.

The major thing is not to get hit by frags. Ever. Each crit frag hitting me can easily mean death.

At range i can more or less reliably react to a frag, but upclose i either predict it or die.

Note, i didn't mention ultimates as all. Just normal sorc dps rotation.

If we add ults into the play, i need not to get caught weapon swapping on meteor.

It's not just desirable. It's necessary.

Because meteor + curse + explosion is 100%->0% without frags.

I never fail blocking meteor. What i fail randomly is weapon swapping. If you hold block and try to weapon swap there's a 0.5 sec gap in the block.

Again, all this is not something that is desirable to do. It's mandatory.

One mistake on this can mean death depending if sorcs crits or not.

Additionally, i can effectively use only 80% of my health. Anything below is instant death.

Speaking of ults, if i got destro-ed with curse+explosion on me that usually means death as well if i don't have the image ready.

As mentioned above, soul assault + curse + explosion is death as well if my health is below max and i don't have a pot up.

All that forces me to die.

Now name me one thing i can do to a mag sorc that can force him to die in a similar manner?

As long as at least one shield is up i can't burst the sorc.

It can be easily demonstrates with counter burst with ballista.

If the sorc doesn't shield right after ballista is cast and right before i ambush in - he might die.

If he manages to press one single button during these 2 sec - he will survive.

Anything else that i have provides considerably less burst than ballista combo.

So how exactly are you supposed to be in danger if you make sure your shield (just one of them) is renewed in time?

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I'm failing to see the significant difference in survival tactics. In general replace LoS+dodge+hots with LoS+shield+heal shield and that's that.

The significant difference is the margin of error. You need to make sure one button of yours is pressed often enough.

I need to make sure i avoid semi-unavoidable burst each 3.5 sec.

You get to 1%hp and manage to press one button? You won't die.

I get to 19% hp at any point of the fight? I die.

You can prevent me to cloak, i can't prevent you to shield.

More significant differences, honey?:)

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Maybe one day I'll find the motivation to make a "miss/dodge" montage. Just hundreds upon hundreds of miss/dodge prompts, followed by uncloaking 2 seconds later with full health into an incap burst combo.

This piece is remarkable:)

One of your major concerns is that you can't kill a guy. One of my major concerns is that i die in 2 sec if i don't outplay the opponent.

Biro123 · September 2017

Dorrino wrote: »

This piece is remarkable:)

One of your major concerns is that you can't kill a guy. One of my major concerns is that i die in 2 sec if i don't outplay the opponent.

How do you twist a thread about a set that kills sorcs very easily into a thread about dying as a NB?

Joy_Division · September 2017

Sorcerer is an "easy" class to play, very forgiving, can almost kill people by accident.

That being said, I'm not sure the class's ceiling is the highest. And I certainly don't think the game needs a gimmick set to counter them.

For all the talk on these forums about wanting a game predicated on skill, people here are defending a very dubious set that goes contrary to the idea that fights should be won by skilled gaemplay. As if ZoS needs any encouragement to make gimmick sets that address balance issues.

I would agree with those people who dislike sorcs about one thing, it is very difficult to impose your will and defeat a good sorc through brute force. It's hard because the sorc can almost instantly light you up, which in turn forces you to play more conservatively, and sorcerers in a sticky situations have very strong and easy "oh ***" buttons to quickly and effectively extricate themselves from danger. Even an average sorc can be difficult to kill if they don't make a mistake.

Does this make them OP or unique? I don't think so because every class played by someone who is good and experienced is hard to kill. You know the names of players you run into in cyrodiil that are virtual cockroaches and just don't die no matter what you through at them, every class, both mag and stam. I believe it easier to do this on a mag sorc, but I'm not convinced they are particularly better at it. Maybe in a 1v1 but no way when they have multiple players focusing them.

I feel the bet way to go is to throw shieldbreaker set into the garbage heap and adjust - as opposed to nerf - sorcs so the class is not so forgiving. I'd be very curious to see what would happen if harness+hardened stacking is removed and the streak penalty is also removed if the sorcerer hits players (thus using it tactically rather than just a panic run away method). It's worth trying rather than encourage gimmick gear (as if there isn't enough of that).

Dorrino · September 2017

Biro123 wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

This piece is remarkable:)

One of your major concerns is that you can't kill a guy. One of my major concerns is that i die in 2 sec if i don't outplay the opponent.

How do you twist a thread about a set that kills sorcs very easily into a thread about dying as a NB?

And yet again.

Sorcs concerns with sb are only validated if sorcs don't overperform.

Then we have a perfectly balanced class being put at a disadvantage. Which is the problem.

But in the case of sorcs, we have an imbalanced class, and that's why shieldbreaker serves a globally beneficial function at the expense of being locally detrimental to the overperforming class.

Nightblades problems are one of the justifications of the existance of shieldbreaker in this sense.