Shieldbreaker escaped proc set nerfs

Devilhand

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I am seriously considering asking Gina to slap a sticky on the front page about Curse.

Curse was made unblockable when Streak was made blockable. You complain about 10k every four seconds? I could slap you with 40k every five seconds before that nerf. Nightblades complain about undodgable, unblockable Curse? Convenient to look away from an undodgable, unblockable CC. That is AoE, slows you, repositions you, maims you, grants 5k resistances, is notoriously buggy.

You want that Curse-with-Streak-change reversed?
BE MY EFFING GUEST! YOU. WILL. REGRET.
Glad we could talk about that.

And another sorc lover.

Yes, I do find Curse is OP as hell right now, and anyone with a brain will say the same.
But, did I ask for a nerf? NO.
Did I ask for a change? NO

I said:
If you keep "nerfing" or modifing every single counter stam classes have against shield stacking classes, then you have to deal with shield stacking classes too or they will become "god mode". And I said all those things about sorcs because THEY are OP, and by the attitude you have you know it is truth.

Oh, yea ofc NB's will complain for all the reasons you posted + the fact it breaks the specific class survival ability they use (cloak). Which is... Hardcounter. I had to adapt to it on my NB's, specially when you have 10 people following you and 2-3 sorcs sppaming that *** on you so you just pop up and get zerg, same with power of the light. I am complaining lately in forums about that? NO.

If you cant deal against shield breaker as a mag sorc, then you have to rethink about your build. I had to adapt to it too on my mag sorc.

This whole thread/discussion is just a L2P issue, coming from some sorcs that cant adapt and desire to run full glasscannon builds 3 shooting everything in the path and surviving. Come on...

There will ALWAYS be a hardcounter for any build in this game, thats the problem with it and thats the reason by +3 years of ESO there is still no balance, and i doubt there will ever be. Just adapt to it, live with it, and move foward.
And if you dont know how to deal against shield breaker, then why the hell you fighting those guys in the first place by your self? Ignore them, or get a friend and group up. Few of us soloers out there now a days, no shame in grouping since cyrodil is pretty much a zerg vs zerg 24/7 right now.

Anyone with a brain would have read more cautiously. Don't need to be a sorc lover to have basic comprehension skills, really.

I didn't say I can't deal with Shieldbreaker. Keep trying to lecture me about sorc play, amateur, very amusing. You think sorc players know less about how to deal with SB than the ones using/defending it?

What I do criticize is how exponentially stronger it gets in zergs. If you think four players of the same class and a damage build targetting you at the same time with no purging healer around and no way to prepare in four seconds, is as common as a single dude of any class with an unleveled bow light attacking from stealth behind a zerg, well... Loss of reality? No clue about Cyrodiil? Ate too many cookies?

Trust me, Streak nerf was much worse than Curse buff. But, sorc haters gonna hate, no matter what.

Dude. Like you had responded before to people complaining about curse. Why you suppouse to survive 4 players or a zerg?
As the game is now, if you get 4 curses from 4 different mag sorcs, you are pretty much screwed, I understand that. On the other hand, if you are fighting 4 players on your mag sorc and 1 of those have shield breaker you might die if you dont kite around LOS or burst the dude fast, but why do you guys think you should be able to survive thru that? Practice makes the expert, want to be able to 1vX, then practice and stop complaining.

Want to survive zergs? group up or about them. Period.

Ate to many cookies??

Dying to four curses is insanely specific. Having one Shieldbreaker on you with three whatever people distracting you is way, way easier to orchestrate. It's the same BS exaggeration as is 35k shields. Just nothing honest about it and pure sorc hate.

Cry me a river.
No exageration at all, you are just doing it wrong.
And im glad not the only one thinking this way, just go read Dorrino post.

Be gone now.

MrDenimChicken

People can get abilities that instantly counter nb's (magelight). So what's the big deal if people can get a set that counters mag sorc. IMO having to get an entire set that makes you weaker vs other classes but stronger vs 1 class is a pretty big investment, and not overpowered.

SelfTherapy

So I just farmed this set, tested it out on some random sorc on my nb and totally killed him with just light attacks, followed by paragraphs of how I'm garbage. Thank god for this set.

Drakkdjinn

TIL that a proc set is any set that kills sorcs.

Drummerx04

Dorrino wrote: »

This thread is really tasty:)



- You don't understand! "One good player has already dealt 15-25k damage to them leaving you with an actual shield stack of only 10-15k tops."

Hilarious:)

No, my dear mag sorc, no player good or not can burst through 15-25k shield in 3 sec. The game doesn't work like this.

You can't pressure mag sorc through the full shield stack with healing ward underneath.

And the reason for that is not 20k+ shields. The reason is those 20k+ shields are uncrittable. You can't burst without crits.


In the meanwhile for a med armor build, relying on dodge as a primary means of defense, warden's cliffracers are the shieldbreaker. Warden's scorch is the shieldbreaker. Dawnbreaker/leap/destro ult are the shieldbreaker. Curse is a shieldbreaker as well. Stacking delayed shieldbreaker. Endless fury, as a cherry on the top, is the shieldbreaker with oneshot from 20%hp.

Yes, good players can and regularly do burst through shields that fast and I meet them regularly in Cyrodiil. Between light attacks, dots, spammables, enchants (infused or not), and powerful attacks that also CC like ultimates, it is entirely plausible to deal in the range of 15-25k damage in 3 seconds. I mean hell, I can pressure most sorcs hard enough with just light attack+crushing shock spam to force another shield rotation before they get more than one or two attacks off.

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

This thread is really tasty:)

- Mag sorcs are fine, you just need to learn to counter them!

*shows shieldbreaker*

- Nononono! Don't counter me like this! Counter me without shieldbreaker!

- But, hm, there's no other counter against mag sorcs:)

- You don't understand! "One good player has already dealt 15-25k damage to them leaving you with an actual shield stack of only 10-15k tops."

Hilarious:)

No, my dear mag sorc, no player good or not can burst through 15-25k shield in 3 sec. The game doesn't work like this.

You can't pressure mag sorc through the full shield stack with healing ward underneath.

And the reason for that is not 20k+ shields. The reason is those 20k+ shields are uncrittable. You can't burst without crits.

This fact alone make any fight predictable for a mag sorc. Mag sorc is always in the control. Solely because the uncritability of the shields.

The only way for a 'good player' to win against a good mag sorc is for mag sorc to fail shield stacking.

Or a shieldbreaker. Which just shifts the pendulum away from the poor powerless mag sorc.

In the meanwhile for a med armor build, relying on dodge as a primary means of defense, warden's cliffracers are the shieldbreaker. Warden's scorch is the shieldbreaker. Dawnbreaker/leap/destro ult are the shieldbreaker. Curse is a shieldbreaker as well. Stacking delayed shieldbreaker. Endless fury, as a cherry on the top, is the shieldbreaker with oneshot from 20%hp.

And all of them are much more effective at their job than 2.1k dmg each sec if light attack lands.

So please, for once, take a look at the game from a non-mag sorc perspective. The game will still be good, trust me.

So because stacked shields are dogsh*t we better have a horsesh*t mechanic to counter them?
Because warden birds and spammable undodgeable attacks are apesh*t there should be more such things in the game?

What about hardcounters being sh*t gameplay is so hard to understand.

Next time someone brings up mark being an idiotic counter to cloak - or birds being an idiotic counter to dodge i´ll bring up shieldbreaker being an idiotic counter to shields.
What matters it if you die to birds atleast you didn´t get shieldbreakered.
Check your privilege...

If that´s everything you can come up with to justify this sets existance i guess we´re in a pretty sad state.

Btw: If anyone is annoyed by cloak who can not access mark - just slot soultrap and morphs. It drops a NB out of cloak with every dmg tick. Apparently it´s desireable to have things like that poisoning the pvp in this game. Enjoy.

Biro123

35k+ shields. Lol

Rarok_Yariy

Shieldbreaker + bow + WW the best way to make running shieldspamers dead.

Dorrino

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Yes, good players can and regularly do burst through shields that fast and I meet them regularly in Cyrodiil. Between light attacks, dots, spammables, enchants (infused or not), and powerful attacks that also CC like ultimates, it is entirely plausible to deal in the range of 15-25k damage in 3 seconds. I mean hell, I can pressure most sorcs hard enough with just light attack+crushing shock spam to force another shield rotation before they get more than one or two attacks off.

25k non-crit damage?:) I'd honor to meet those fabled 'good players' and beg them to share their secrets with mediocre players like myself.

In the meanwhile mediocre players like myself aren't capable to outdamage healing ward spam alone:) Time to git gud, right?

And la+crushing outdamages 10k/sec shield spam is hilarious on its own.

I feel you, it sucks when nobody understands how to fight magicka sorcs.

Derra wrote: »

So because stacked shields are dogsh*t we better have a horsesh*t mechanic to counter them?

We can wait another 2-3 years for zos to do something about the shields.

Until then why wouldn't we counter shields with whatever zos provided already?:)

Derra wrote: »

Because warden birds and spammable undodgeable attacks are apesh*t there should be more such things in the game?

As Devilhand tells us multiple times - we can adapt.

Med armor adapted to play around undodgable birds and undodgable AND unblockable scorch.

I trust mag sorcs are capable to adapt to shieldbreaker as well. It's a considerably easier task.

Derra wrote: »

What about hardcounters being sh*t gameplay is so hard to understand.

Tell this to zos. They design intrinsically unfair pvp system. Deliberately. As the design choice. Look at mag sorcs, for instance:P

Derra wrote: »

Next time someone brings up mark being an idiotic counter to cloak - or birds being an idiotic counter to dodge i´ll bring up shieldbreaker being an idiotic counter to shields.

At least shieldbreaker don't hit you for 6k/sec:)

Derra wrote: »

Btw: If anyone is annoyed by cloak who can not access mark - just slot soultrap and morphs. It drops a NB out of cloak with every dmg tick. Apparently it´s desireable to have things like that poisoning the pvp in this game. Enjoy.

If only this - that would be nightblade's paradise.

Speaking of sorcs, did you know that application of curse and endless fury breaks cloak?:) Not just the explosions - the very application.

Drummerx04

Dorrino wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Yes, good players can and regularly do burst through shields that fast and I meet them regularly in Cyrodiil. Between light attacks, dots, spammables, enchants (infused or not), and powerful attacks that also CC like ultimates, it is entirely plausible to deal in the range of 15-25k damage in 3 seconds. I mean hell, I can pressure most sorcs hard enough with just light attack+crushing shock spam to force another shield rotation before they get more than one or two attacks off.

25k non-crit damage?:) I'd honor to meet those fabled 'good players' and beg them to share their secrets with mediocre players like myself.

In the meanwhile mediocre players like myself aren't capable to outdamage healing ward spam alone:) Time to git gud, right?

And la+crushing outdamages 10k/sec shield spam is hilarious on its own.

I feel you, it sucks when nobody understands how to fight magicka sorcs.

Derra wrote: »

So because stacked shields are dogsh*t we better have a horsesh*t mechanic to counter them?

We can wait another 2-3 years for zos to do something about the shields.

Until then why wouldn't we counter shields with whatever zos provided already?:)

Derra wrote: »

Because warden birds and spammable undodgeable attacks are apesh*t there should be more such things in the game?

As Devilhand tells us multiple times - we can adapt.

Med armor adapted to play around undodgable birds and undodgable AND unblockable scorch.

I trust mag sorcs are capable to adapt to shieldbreaker as well. It's a considerably easier task.

Derra wrote: »

What about hardcounters being sh*t gameplay is so hard to understand.

Tell this to zos. They design intrinsically unfair pvp system. Deliberately. As the design choice. Look at mag sorcs, for instance:P

Derra wrote: »

Next time someone brings up mark being an idiotic counter to cloak - or birds being an idiotic counter to dodge i´ll bring up shieldbreaker being an idiotic counter to shields.

At least shieldbreaker don't hit you for 6k/sec:)

Derra wrote: »

Btw: If anyone is annoyed by cloak who can not access mark - just slot soultrap and morphs. It drops a NB out of cloak with every dmg tick. Apparently it´s desireable to have things like that poisoning the pvp in this game. Enjoy.

If only this - that would be nightblade's paradise.

Speaking of sorcs, did you know that application of curse and endless fury breaks cloak?:) Not just the explosions - the very application.

Actually no. The application of curse does not break cloak. A NB is only revealed by the curse detonation, and cloak force misses fury's lightning bolt and I have to assume the application of the execute debuff.

The primary difference between birds and shieldbreaker is the way your class/build handles whatever damage gets through your active defenses (shields/dodge). Dodge builds, like your's specifically, tend to come packaged with pretty noteworthy self heals. To paraphrase you from one of our in game conversations, "If a burst combo doesn't one shot me, I pretty much heal instantly back to full health "

And not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm pretty sure you can block birds, which means that you have the option to reduce bird damage without drastically modifying your build. I'm also about 90% sure that birds can be cloaked away.

Fwiw, I also think that birds and shalks are two of the most bulls**t skills in the entire game. Shalks are basically a melee version of the sorc curse that everyone complains about... except it comes with a CC and hits multiple targets, and birds seem to hit really hard for something that is spammable and undodgeable.

Dorrino

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Actually no. The application of curse does not break cloak. A NB is only revealed by the curse detonation, and cloak force misses fury's lightning bolt and I have to assume the application of the execute debuff.

Actually yes, the application of curse does break cloak if you happen to cloak at the same time.

Same goes for endless fury application, power of the light/purifying light applications and some other spells that are considered to be aoe even though their application doesn't do damage.

Same goes for application and each tick of lightning staff heavy.

That's why btw 2 sorcs on stam nb effectively prevent him from cloaking just by spamming endless fury/renewing curse.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

The primary difference between birds and shieldbreaker is the way your class/build handles whatever damage gets through your active defenses (shields/dodge).

It doesn't. My class does not handle the damage going through dodge. If by 'handle' we mean anything more than 'surviving for 2 sec required to get into a los'.

You seems to have huge misconceptions about nightblades specifically.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Dodge builds, like your's specifically, tend to come packaged with pretty noteworthy self heals.

They don't. You demonstrate surprising lack of knowledge about stamblades.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

To paraphrase you from one of our in game conversations, "If a burst combo doesn't one shot me, I pretty much heal instantly back to full health "

You didn't understand me. I don't heal to full instantly. I can't. The class is not equipped for that.

Best i can do is about 3k heals per sec. If everything crits. Typical value is about 2.5k. If tk procs that another 1.6k per sec.

So total best is about 4.5k hp per sec. In the meanwhile dps geared mag warden hits for 5-6k with the bird alone.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

And not to put too fine a point on it, but I'm pretty sure you can block birds, which means that you have the option to reduce bird damage without drastically modifying your build. I'm also about 90% sure that birds can be cloaked away.

You can't block 1 sec spam skill. You can block a couple. Then you'll be running out of stam.

And no, med armor builds (not just stamblades) can't use blocks for prolonged amount of time. Block essentially is used not to get bursted between dodges/cloaks.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Fwiw, I also think that birds and shalks are two of the most bulls**t skills in the entire game. Shalks are basically a melee version of the sorc curse that everyone complains about... except it comes with a CC and hits multiple targets, and birds seem to hit really hard for something that is spammable and undodgeable.

'Stalks' are avoidable. Curse is not. Curse is effectively a shieldbreaker for med armor classes that hits up to 7-8k each 3 sec. Not preventable.

And as you've been told above its application breaks cloak if you happen to cloak at the same time.

Lord-Otto

Good. We talked about it. Next is Dodgebreaker for Clockwork City. I'm tired of the dodge stackers, and hey, hard counters are okay now, right?

*waits for hypoblades to jump from behind the tree*
>=3

Lord-Otto

Devilhand wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Devilhand wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I am seriously considering asking Gina to slap a sticky on the front page about Curse.

Curse was made unblockable when Streak was made blockable. You complain about 10k every four seconds? I could slap you with 40k every five seconds before that nerf. Nightblades complain about undodgable, unblockable Curse? Convenient to look away from an undodgable, unblockable CC. That is AoE, slows you, repositions you, maims you, grants 5k resistances, is notoriously buggy.

You want that Curse-with-Streak-change reversed?
BE MY EFFING GUEST! YOU. WILL. REGRET.
Glad we could talk about that.

And another sorc lover.

Yes, I do find Curse is OP as hell right now, and anyone with a brain will say the same.
But, did I ask for a nerf? NO.
Did I ask for a change? NO

I said:
If you keep "nerfing" or modifing every single counter stam classes have against shield stacking classes, then you have to deal with shield stacking classes too or they will become "god mode". And I said all those things about sorcs because THEY are OP, and by the attitude you have you know it is truth.

Oh, yea ofc NB's will complain for all the reasons you posted + the fact it breaks the specific class survival ability they use (cloak). Which is... Hardcounter. I had to adapt to it on my NB's, specially when you have 10 people following you and 2-3 sorcs sppaming that *** on you so you just pop up and get zerg, same with power of the light. I am complaining lately in forums about that? NO.

If you cant deal against shield breaker as a mag sorc, then you have to rethink about your build. I had to adapt to it too on my mag sorc.

This whole thread/discussion is just a L2P issue, coming from some sorcs that cant adapt and desire to run full glasscannon builds 3 shooting everything in the path and surviving. Come on...

There will ALWAYS be a hardcounter for any build in this game, thats the problem with it and thats the reason by +3 years of ESO there is still no balance, and i doubt there will ever be. Just adapt to it, live with it, and move foward.
And if you dont know how to deal against shield breaker, then why the hell you fighting those guys in the first place by your self? Ignore them, or get a friend and group up. Few of us soloers out there now a days, no shame in grouping since cyrodil is pretty much a zerg vs zerg 24/7 right now.

Anyone with a brain would have read more cautiously. Don't need to be a sorc lover to have basic comprehension skills, really.

I didn't say I can't deal with Shieldbreaker. Keep trying to lecture me about sorc play, amateur, very amusing. You think sorc players know less about how to deal with SB than the ones using/defending it?

What I do criticize is how exponentially stronger it gets in zergs. If you think four players of the same class and a damage build targetting you at the same time with no purging healer around and no way to prepare in four seconds, is as common as a single dude of any class with an unleveled bow light attacking from stealth behind a zerg, well... Loss of reality? No clue about Cyrodiil? Ate too many cookies?

Trust me, Streak nerf was much worse than Curse buff. But, sorc haters gonna hate, no matter what.

Dude. Like you had responded before to people complaining about curse. Why you suppouse to survive 4 players or a zerg?
As the game is now, if you get 4 curses from 4 different mag sorcs, you are pretty much screwed, I understand that. On the other hand, if you are fighting 4 players on your mag sorc and 1 of those have shield breaker you might die if you dont kite around LOS or burst the dude fast, but why do you guys think you should be able to survive thru that? Practice makes the expert, want to be able to 1vX, then practice and stop complaining.

Want to survive zergs? group up or about them. Period.

Ate to many cookies??

Dying to four curses is insanely specific. Having one Shieldbreaker on you with three whatever people distracting you is way, way easier to orchestrate. It's the same BS exaggeration as is 35k shields. Just nothing honest about it and pure sorc hate.

Cry me a river.
No exageration at all, you are just doing it wrong.
And im glad not the only one thinking this way, just go read Dorrino post.

Be gone now.

And you...
I was here before you and will be here after you left crying about classes.
I'm sure everyone in Cyro is a magsorc, absolutely. Your comment tells me that you simply lack any experience and are not here for a reasoned discussion. Best to ignore you, not worth anyone's time.

Drummerx04

Dorrino wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Actually no. The application of curse does not break cloak. A NB is only revealed by the curse detonation, and cloak force misses fury's lightning bolt and I have to assume the application of the execute debuff.

Actually yes, the application of curse does break cloak if you happen to cloak at the same time.

Same goes for endless fury application, power of the light/purifying light applications and some other spells that are considered to be aoe even though their application doesn't do damage.

Same goes for application and each tick of lightning staff heavy.

[...]

In hundreds of hours fighting in cyrodiil and thousands upon thousands of curse casts against NB, I have never whitnessed the application of curse pulling NB out of stealth.

Just how precise does the timing have to be to pull this off? I have NB force missing my projectiles with cloak even when I have a detect pot running in range. Cloak seems pretty effective. Multiple patches ago perhaps, I hear cloak was broken by someone looking angrily in your general direction, but certainly not in morrowind or hotr.

I feel like you completely left out rally in your analysis of your self heal capabilities.

Dorrino wrote: »

It doesn't. My class does not handle the damage going through dodge. If by 'handle' we mean anything more than 'surviving for 2 sec required to get into a los'.

You seems to have huge misconceptions about nightblades specifically.
[...]
They don't. You demonstrate surprising lack of knowledge about stamblades.

Yes, well easily 90% of the time 1vXers will aim to fight near some sort of LoS, at which point you can have at least a second or two to heal without the bird spam. And the next time I see you kiting, dodging, cloaking, and shade porting 15+ players on a keep wall for 5 minutes, I'll be sure to remind myself that your build has very low survivability.

And honestly, you seem to lack an understanding of what it's like to actually play on a sorc.
You see that we hit you with an 8k curse, but fail to recognize that that's the ONLY thing we've landed on you in 3.5 seconds.
You see sorcs shieldstacking to survive against 2-3 players for 10 seconds, but conveniently ignore that we are casting basically nothing besides defensive skills.
You point out that sorcs can streak to LoS, but ignore the stacking costs of streak and how little ground is actually covered for the cost when the sorc is snared (which is pretty much always)

---

But frankly, this thread did not even begin as a "Woe is me, I'm a poor unfortunate magsorc."

I started this thread to point out that shieldbreaker is basically the only direct damage set in this game right now that can be straight spammed to hose out instantaneous oblivion damage on every light attack.

Does it affect magsorc more? Yes, and I openly admitted my obvious biases in the OP.

Remember people complaining about viper, widowmaker, selene, tremorscale, etc? Why wasn't that a learn to play issue? Why did those sets get nerfed? If someone wanted to run 15k pure proc burst on a tanky block build, isn't that their right? Are we not happier that direct damaging sets have been toned down? I'm pretty sure "nerf procsets" was one of the most requested changes since NB started ganking with viper+velidreth back in SoTH patch.

SB is currently the only set in the game that you can place on a first time ESO pvp player... and pretty much HEAVILY pressure a subset of players just by spamming light attacks. Like you can literally roll 50k health permablock dk tank and equip shieldbreaker and just pressure the crap out people with the set bonus.

What other set in the game lets you do that right now?

Dorrino

Drummerx04 wrote: »

In hundreds of hours fighting in cyrodiil and thousands upon thousands of curse casts against NB, I have never whitnessed the application of curse pulling NB out of stealth.

I'm not sure how lack of observation on your part can be of value here. I play it. And above-mentioned things break cloak. There are more things that happen to break it in a similar manner.

Again we're not talking about taking you out of cloak after a while. We're talking about cloaking and immediately (within 100ms) losing cloak to the things in the list.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I have NB force missing my projectiles with cloak even when I have a detect pot running in range. Cloak seems pretty effective.

We're not talking about projectiles at all. Those are fine.

We're talking about instantaneous debuffs a nightblade gains.

Example.

Warden's birds don't break cloak.

Sorc's frags don't break cloak.

Sorc's curse does.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Multiple patches ago perhaps, I hear cloak was broken by someone looking angrily in your general direction, but certainly not in morrowind or hotr.

I like your certainty. It's reassuring.

The only thing that changed from that time are gap-closers/dizzying swings that stopped breaking it. Everything else from the 'fun list' back in the days still does.

Even more. Say a sorc casts a frag at a nightblade. Nightblade cloaks (successfully). After 0.5 sec (frags still in the air, nightblade is cloaked) cloak breaks because of a reason unrelated to the frags. The frags still hits the nightblade.

There's a whole lot of quite compelling reasons why good nightblades cloak while holding block. Because it's expected for the cloak to randomly break. Block is there to cover for this.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I feel like you completely left out rally in your analysis of your self heal capabilities.

3k is with rally.

1.1k rally crit + 1.8-1.9k vigor crit.

I got a point when i claim that nightblades heal for nothing.

Did you really expect 3k vigor crits?:D

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Yes, well easily 90% of the time 1vXers will aim to fight near some sort of LoS, at which point you can have at least a second or two to heal without the bird spam.

Now that's the argument for the birds:D

No i don't fight near a los 90% of time. I try to, but it doesn't happen that often. And no it doesn't validate bird spam to any degree. On the contrary. Med armor is forced to fight near a los because wardens and mag sorcs primarily.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

And the next time I see you kiting, dodging, cloaking, and shade porting 15+ players on a keep wall for 5 minutes, I'll be sure to remind myself that your build has very low survivability.

You started with self-heals. My survivability comes from outplaying opponents. Not from heals. I don't have even 2 sec of dmg uptime against 3-4 people. At all. I die.

The only reason you observe long fights against 10 people is exactly the squishiness of nightblades. Otherwise the fight would be over much sooner.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

And honestly, you seem to lack an understanding of what it's like to actually play on a sorc.

A mag sorc was my first character in this game. And still is one of the two i got above lvl 50. I got flawless on it as well:)

The only reason i don't play it in pvp is that it got much lower skill cap than the stamblade. I find playing it too boring. it excels at both offense and defense. At the same time. I felt guilty killing people with it.

Now tell me about mag sorcs:)

Drummerx04 wrote: »

You see that we hit you with an 8k curse, but fail to recognize that that's the ONLY thing we've landed on you in 3.5 seconds.

Nope. The only reason if that happens is because i avoided everything else a mag sorc tried to throw at me.

The only reason why a stamblade is capable to fight a mag sorc is because he can pre cloak curse explosion, thus preventing split second burst on it.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

You see sorcs shieldstacking to survive against 2-3 players for 10 seconds, but conveniently ignore that we are casting basically nothing besides defensive skills.

When you see a stamblde kiting 3-4 people in the tower you conveniently ignore that he's frantically trying to survive and find an opportunity to have 3-4 sec 1v1 with one of the pursuers.

You sound like other classes can defend against 4 people and do damage at the same time:D

Only stam wardens in heavy are capable to do that.

And, well, mag sorcs, because they can setup their burst in between shield stacking:)

Drummerx04 wrote: »

You point out that sorcs can streak to LoS, but ignore the stacking costs of streak and how little ground is actually covered for the cost when the sorc is snared (which is pretty much always)

I never mentioned streak.

And it's quite hard to ignore its stacking costs, don't you think? Why would i do that?

Drummerx04 wrote: »

But frankly, this thread did not even begin as a "Woe is me, I'm a poor unfortunate magsorc."

It became one, though. You whole line of reasoning can be ironically summarized as 'i'm not supposed to die as a mag sorc, but shieldbreaker makes my class less op. Plz fix'.

You've been told by multiple people to get out of your shell and start adapting.

Unfortunately you ignore their advice.

Have you ever thought that something might not be right when every other mag build is forced into heavy (or light with s&b), besides mag sorcs?:)

Other classes adapted. Could it be that it's finally mag sorcs turn?

Drummerx04 wrote: »

I started this thread to point out that shieldbreaker is basically the only direct damage set in this game right now that can be straight spammed to hose out instantaneous oblivion damage on every light attack.

Knightslayer is spammable in a similar manner.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Does it affect magsorc more? Yes, and I openly admitted my obvious biases in the OP.

But you still refuse to understand that this behavior happens purely in the result of Zos design.

It feels that you happen to have an illusion that it's an oversight.

Shields are supposed to be a no-brainer defensive solution to any danger in pvp, right?:)

Well, you can have my condolences.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Remember people complaining about viper, widowmaker, selene, tremorscale, etc? Why wasn't that a learn to play issue?

It was.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Why did those sets get nerfed?

Because there was an huge outcry in the community for months.

Just like the one about mag sorcs:) Don't you see the similarity?

Drummerx04 wrote: »

If someone wanted to run 15k pure proc burst on a tanky block build, isn't that their right?

It is.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Are we not happier that direct damaging sets have been toned down?

Some are. Some are not. People are adapting. It's fine.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

SB is currently the only set in the game that you can place on a first time ESO pvp player... and pretty much HEAVILY pressure a subset of players just by spamming light attacks.

Just like any type of warden is a class a "first time ESO pvp player" can play and "pretty much HEAVILY pressure a subset of players just by spamming" one skill. That hits at least for 1.5-2 times more than sb, even on a sub 50 player:)

Welcome to zos pvp design paradigm.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Like you can literally roll 50k health permablock dk tank and equip shieldbreaker and just pressure the crap out people with the set bonus.

50k permablock bow build?:D Otherwise how would he pressure a mag sorc?:)

Drummerx04 wrote: »

What other set in the game lets you do that right now?

What other sets in the game can provide a strong offense against a shielding target?:)

Don't you think there's a reason why i'm pushing sb stam meta in cyro?:)

Because shields give so much of an edge that after burst damage went down sb is the only strong gearing choice against all the varieties of pvp targets.

Sorry that your god mode starts shaking. I'd indeed try to adapt if i were you.

But i'm not:)

buttaface

They whined and whined and got oblivion dmg and torug's overnerfed, now as I knew for sure, they are back to whining about shieldbreaker. Nerf herders never stop whining, it's as if every playstyle in the game deserves overnerfing but theirs. Transparent.

Maryal

The problem we had with proc sets was (primarily) that they allowed for no real counter play.

Look at some of the remedies we now have. The solution we got for Viper was to convert the large burst damage into a DOT ... the amount of damage didn't change, only that it now occurs over 8 seconds (or whatever the timeframe is). What was the solution to Selene? LOL! Now, a split second before the bear hits you over the head, the player will glow green.

Honestly, why are we complaining about Shield Breaker ... a set that has been around for a long long time. It doesn't do a single "high burst' of lethal damage like Viper used to do, but rather it does mediocre damage with each light attack (and it generally takes several attacks to kill someone).

So what if a new player can spam enough pew-pews to whittle down the health of someone wearing a damage shield to protect their low health build! I mean, who in the heck just stands there and allows themselves to be hit like that without taking any counter measures?

If you have a low health build that has just taken a hit on your health in pvp land ... well, you are going to be the focus of other pvp'ers anyway, whether they wear SB or not ... it's just the nature of pvp (focus on easy, low health, low CP targets (as well as healers)).

If you are a high health build/tank ... well ... immortality (near immortality) can't be allowed to exist in a game for obvious reasons. Such tanks are harmless you say? LOL! You can harm a player .... you can also harm a campaign ... one doesn't necessarily depend on the other.

Mureel

Merkabeh wrote: »

[insert popcorn gif here]

Why don't people PVP? *Oidunno* These threads?

bardx86

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I am seriously considering asking Gina to slap a sticky on the front page about Curse.

Curse was made unblockable when Streak was made blockable. You complain about 10k every four seconds? I could slap you with 40k every five seconds before that nerf. Nightblades complain about undodgable, unblockable Curse? Convenient to look away from an undodgable, unblockable CC. That is AoE, slows you, repositions you, maims you, grants 5k resistances, is notoriously buggy.

You want that Curse-with-Streak-change reversed?
BE MY EFFING GUEST! YOU. WILL. REGRET.
Glad we could talk about that.

Curse doesn't hit for 10k anymore. Curse is about 4-5k on anyone that has a good build. Frags is around 6-7 k.

Thrymbauld

Tried out Shield Breaker today. It's a set I'd been meaning to give a go, and just hadn't gotten around to it.

I have to say, it works pretty well

---

on guys that didn't bother to get themselves any health and don't have any health heals whatsoever on their bars, that is. I mean, it positively shreds folks sitting at sub 20k hp underneath all those shields.....unless they bother to have vigor or surge or even bother hitting with a dark magic attack, at that point it pretty much mitigates it since the shield is eating all the other damage.

People that actually prepare for the fights forced me to bother using skills as well as light attacking, and used things of their own to mitigate the direct health damage because seriously, it's 2500 damage per light attack, it's not like they can't outheal that with basic self maintenance.

Frankly, I haven't decided it I'm even going to keep it or just swap it out for something more globally useful.

Biro123

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Tried out Shield Breaker today. It's a set I'd been meaning to give a go, and just hadn't gotten around to it.

I have to say, it works pretty well

---

on guys that didn't bother to get themselves any health and don't have any health heals whatsoever on their bars, that is. I mean, it positively shreds folks sitting at sub 20k hp underneath all those shields.....unless they bother to have vigor or surge or even bother hitting with a dark magic attack, at that point it pretty much mitigates it since the shield is eating all the other damage.

People that actually prepare for the fights forced me to bother using skills as well as light attacking, and used things of their own to mitigate the direct health damage because seriously, it's 2500 damage per light attack, it's not like they can't outheal that with basic self maintenance.

Frankly, I haven't decided it I'm even going to keep it or just swap it out for something more globally useful.

Bit sorcs can't heal it with basic self maintenance.. They have no tools for that.

Biro123

Maryal wrote: »

The problem we had with proc sets was (primarily) that they allowed for no real counter play.

Look at some of the remedies we now have. The solution we got for Viper was to convert the large burst damage into a DOT ... the amount of damage didn't change, only that it now occurs over 8 seconds (or whatever the timeframe is). What was the solution to Selene? LOL! Now, a split second before the bear hits you over the head, the player will glow green.

Honestly, why are we complaining about Shield Breaker ... a set that has been around for a long long time. It doesn't do a single "high burst' of lethal damage like Viper used to do, but rather it does mediocre damage with each light attack (and it generally takes several attacks to kill someone).

So what if a new player can spam enough pew-pews to whittle down the health of someone wearing a damage shield to protect their low health build! I mean, who in the heck just stands there and allows themselves to be hit like that without taking any counter measures?

If you have a low health build that has just taken a hit on your health in pvp land ... well, you are going to be the focus of other pvp'ers anyway, whether they wear SB or not ... it's just the nature of pvp (focus on easy, low health, low CP targets (as well as healers)).

If you are a high health build/tank ... well ... immortality (near immortality) can't be allowed to exist in a game for obvious reasons. Such tanks are harmless you say? LOL! You can harm a player .... you can also harm a campaign ... one doesn't necessarily depend on the other.

So, viper did around 4k every 4 seconds.. Cos battle-spirit affected it. It was then further reduced by resists, shields, etc. And was melee only.

Shieldbreaker does 5k every 2 seconds, can not be reduced by anything and from range.
Viper was a baby compared to shieldbreaker.

davey1107

I guess stam players got so accustomed to being carried by proc sets

Really? They used an ability given to them in order to score points? J'accuse! The scoundrels!

I play a stamblade, and I've actually never used a proc set in Cyrodiil pvp. I've always favored other 5th trait buffs. Regardless, it's not hard to figure out why players are favoring shieldbreaker. Magic builds are all running massively powerful shields. Sorcs are OP owing to their ability to stack shields, restore health and magic under them, and pump out "point and click" easy mode damage.

This has become the meta for magic players, especially magsorcs. So you guys all run the exact same build, then you're shocked when that results in others feeling comfortable sacrificing a 5th trait to become sorc hunters by using a specific set. I'd be comfortable running shieldbreaker, only because I'd know it'd work against 65% of the players I face.

Also, the reason shieldbreaker is so lethal is because the current mets is also to run bare minimum health and resistance so you can use your gigantic magic pool as a crutch. Slot some heals and tone down the toon's power in exchange for some higher armor. As a NB I sacrifice a lot of spots on my gear for defense instead of offense. Your problem isn't that shieldbreaker is OP....2000 isn't a lot of damage. It's that you're so utterly weak under the shield that you can't survive without them.

Biro123

Lol.. Who mentioned that sorcs should be forced into heavy armour, sword and board like anyone else..

I'd love that.. Ofc. You'd also have to give them either a class spammable or a reliable heal that didn't take 3 slot s (yes, you have to keep that pet shielded). Cos to use sword and board, to not use shields, well, the only heals you can get is from resto..
Snb, resto magsorc.. Poor heals, no pressure, nothing synergising with blocking to help sustain.. Yeah, give the class either a class spammable, or reliable class heal or a defence mechanism for that isn't a shield.
Then you can talk about sorcs not having to shield..

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Yes, good players can and regularly do burst through shields that fast and I meet them regularly in Cyrodiil. Between light attacks, dots, spammables, enchants (infused or not), and powerful attacks that also CC like ultimates, it is entirely plausible to deal in the range of 15-25k damage in 3 seconds. I mean hell, I can pressure most sorcs hard enough with just light attack+crushing shock spam to force another shield rotation before they get more than one or two attacks off.

25k non-crit damage?:) I'd honor to meet those fabled 'good players' and beg them to share their secrets with mediocre players like myself.

In the meanwhile mediocre players like myself aren't capable to outdamage healing ward spam alone:) Time to git gud, right?

And la+crushing outdamages 10k/sec shield spam is hilarious on its own.

I feel you, it sucks when nobody understands how to fight magicka sorcs.

Derra wrote: »

So because stacked shields are dogsh*t we better have a horsesh*t mechanic to counter them?

We can wait another 2-3 years for zos to do something about the shields.

Until then why wouldn't we counter shields with whatever zos provided already?:)

Derra wrote: »

Because warden birds and spammable undodgeable attacks are apesh*t there should be more such things in the game?

As Devilhand tells us multiple times - we can adapt.

Med armor adapted to play around undodgable birds and undodgable AND unblockable scorch.

I trust mag sorcs are capable to adapt to shieldbreaker as well. It's a considerably easier task.

Derra wrote: »

What about hardcounters being sh*t gameplay is so hard to understand.

Tell this to zos. They design intrinsically unfair pvp system. Deliberately. As the design choice. Look at mag sorcs, for instance:P

Derra wrote: »

Next time someone brings up mark being an idiotic counter to cloak - or birds being an idiotic counter to dodge i´ll bring up shieldbreaker being an idiotic counter to shields.

At least shieldbreaker don't hit you for 6k/sec:)

Derra wrote: »

Btw: If anyone is annoyed by cloak who can not access mark - just slot soultrap and morphs. It drops a NB out of cloak with every dmg tick. Apparently it´s desireable to have things like that poisoning the pvp in this game. Enjoy.

If only this - that would be nightblade's paradise.

Speaking of sorcs, did you know that application of curse and endless fury breaks cloak?:) Not just the explosions - the very application.

I don´t know a NB who adapted to undodgeable birds + scorch that´s still running bow+2h fighting a capable opponent.
Same as i don´t know a magsorc that adapted to shieldbreaker fighting a capable opponent.

And getting hit by 6k/s while healing for 2.5k and being able to attack while doing it is in what way different to getting hit for 3.7k/s healing for 2k but not being able to do anything else?

Just that you think magsorc is a top pvp class shows a very limited view on pvp. The only classes that should have problems with magsorcs at all are stamblade and stamDK.
MagDK, -templar, -NB, -warden outclass magsorc or a flatout able to hardcounter them (outside of petspecs that aren´t vaible outside of duels).

You think it´s unfair you can´t kill magsorcs 1v1. But every time i get into that argument with a NB i ask them what realistic chance does the sorc have to kill the NB if you´re not a greedy idiot jumping in mines - the response always is: None.
So you can´t kill each other but their mechanic of not dying is somehow worse than yours and deserves a hardcounter that makes the whole class basically unplayable if enough people wear it? Always makes me wonder.

Meanwhile i play my NB and laugh at other NBs claiming sorcs are an overpowered class. If you don´t figure in templar, DK or NB they are - and warden ironically hardcounters sorc so even if i can´t really assess their power relative to all other classes i know they don´t have issues with sorcs.

Elsterchen

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Keep in mind, this set has no internal cooldown, and the only "counterplay" is to not cast shields... which isn't really practical or even counterplay. You could make an argument that healing is the counterplay... but it was also the counterplay for every other damaging proc set, so its a hypocritical argument at best. You are still getting 2k dps straight through all mitigating abilities via the armor you are wearing.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Sure, it's called timing burst and CC around shield cooldowns. Roots and snares are also incredibly effective at preventing mobility or draining resources.
Edit: a surprisingly effective counter to shields is also to deal a lot of damage. Shields don't get the damage mitigation from armor or blocking so they scale less effectively against strong continuous damage from dots and strong single target spammables. So for instance, if a stamplar casts POTL, 1 dot or CC, and then blasts away with jabs, he will chew through sorc shields like it's his job.

This is gonne be fun

First off, it's always a good move to start a discussion with implying that all stam players are biased. Will 100% get the best arguments out of a topic.

Then you deny healing as counterplay, you say it's "hypocritical" as it's counterplay to every incoming damage. So what, is it a counter now or not? Also you continue to say damage is the counterplay to shields. This doesn't add up. Damage is the only way to kill somebody. Talking about hypocritical arguments...

In another sentence you highlight how shields aren't boosted by armor resistance. However you conceal that they are immune to extra crit damage (not to being critted) as well. I'm starting to believe you were right when you said you are biased too.

Oh, and I hope you complain about Way of the Fire as well, since it's still unavoidable and instant.

But back to the real issue: yes, shieldbreaker is broken. It recieved a fix this patch but it's still broken. Wards need a counter but this isn't the one that is healthy for the game. Your suggestion with the +20% dmg to shields is nice. Also the debuff to wards. They could also change the 5 piece bonus to something like "x% of the extra dmg ignores shields" or ha/la deals X dmg that ignores shields but are mitigated by armor".

psshhhh ... maybe no-one heard it yet. ^^

... afflicted isn't changed, too
... shalk still works as before...

Lord-Otto

bardx86 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

I am seriously considering asking Gina to slap a sticky on the front page about Curse.

Curse was made unblockable when Streak was made blockable. You complain about 10k every four seconds? I could slap you with 40k every five seconds before that nerf. Nightblades complain about undodgable, unblockable Curse? Convenient to look away from an undodgable, unblockable CC. That is AoE, slows you, repositions you, maims you, grants 5k resistances, is notoriously buggy.

You want that Curse-with-Streak-change reversed?
BE MY EFFING GUEST! YOU. WILL. REGRET.
Glad we could talk about that.

Curse doesn't hit for 10k anymore. Curse is about 4-5k on anyone that has a good build. Frags is around 6-7 k.

Oh, I know. It never has. Just wanted to jump on the exaggetrain.
(^_-)

olsborg

Shieldbreaker is only a problem if youre fighting someone with a tanky'ish build spamming light atks with a bow. Even shieldbuilds should have some kinda heal to heal through from shieldbreaker, sure SB provides pressure, but isnt impossible to beat. Granted the way SB currently works with no cooldown and if there are more then one players using it on the same target, it becomes completely ridiculous.
If you fight someone using SB who only proccs it on LA weaves it isnt a problem, its actually fairly balanced and provides pressure where there otherwise would be none (shieldstacking is still just as ridiculous as SB)

Personally id like to see one of two things happen to SB. Either make the dmg procc on the shield, not under it. Or give the set a cooldown of 2s (on the target) so ppl cant just wtf LA spam you to death, that just promotes idiotic gameplay.

Valencer

Is it that hard for everyone to agree that shieldbreaker is a stupid set and undodgeable birds are a stupid game mechanic?

The devs screw up PvP more and more every update and people rather take out their frustration on each other instead of sending a clear message back to the devs. Pretty sad.

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Because warden birds and spammable undodgeable attacks are apesh*t there should be more such things in the game?

As Devilhand tells us multiple times - we can adapt.

Med armor adapted to play around undodgable birds and undodgable AND unblockable scorch.

I trust mag sorcs are capable to adapt to shieldbreaker as well. It's a considerably easier task.

This is a stamblade being delusional. You didnt adapt to anything - your class simply gets saved by having access to cloak. Medium armour players are screwed on any other class.

So asking sorcs to adapt to something they simply cant adapt to unless they start running a build that cant kill anything that knows how to defend itself (serious sacrifices are needed to be able to heal effectively and constantly on a mag sorc) is really silly.

Shieldbreaker is stupid... deal with it.

Biro123

davey1107 wrote: »

I guess stam players got so accustomed to being carried by proc sets

Really? They used an ability given to them in order to score points? J'accuse! The scoundrels!

I play a stamblade, and I've actually never used a proc set in Cyrodiil pvp. I've always favored other 5th trait buffs. Regardless, it's not hard to figure out why players are favoring shieldbreaker. Magic builds are all running massively powerful shields. Sorcs are OP owing to their ability to stack shields, restore health and magic under them, and pump out "point and click" easy mode damage.

This has become the meta for magic players, especially magsorcs. So you guys all run the exact same build, then you're shocked when that results in others feeling comfortable sacrificing a 5th trait to become sorc hunters by using a specific set. I'd be comfortable running shieldbreaker, only because I'd know it'd work against 65% of the players I face.

Also, the reason shieldbreaker is so lethal is because the current mets is also to run bare minimum health and resistance so you can use your gigantic magic pool as a crutch. Slot some heals and tone down the toon's power in exchange for some higher armor. As a NB I sacrifice a lot of spots on my gear for defense instead of offense. Your problem isn't that shieldbreaker is OP....2000 isn't a lot of damage. It's that you're so utterly weak under the shield that you can't survive without them.

Guess what..? Shield-breaker damage ignores resists.. So can stack as much heavy armour as you want under those shields - and it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference..

Double-guess what? Sorcs have absolutely no choice other than to shield for their defence. Other magica classes get shield (from light armour) + something else.. heals, cloaks, reflects, etc.. Sorcs get NOTHING. I've been trying to come up with a viable magsorc build that doesn't have to rely on shields for quite a while now - y'know what? Haven't managed it. I'm open to any suggestions you may have of course..