Shieldbreaker escaped proc set nerfs

Derra

Biro123 wrote: »

Double-guess what? Sorcs have absolutely no choice other than to shield for their defence. Other magica classes get shield (from light armour) + something else.. heals, cloaks, reflects, etc.. Sorcs get NOTHING. I've been trying to come up with a viable magsorc build that doesn't have to rely on shields for quite a while now - y'know what? Haven't managed it. I'm open to any suggestions you may have of course..

I don´t know of any player who has managed to make a competetive magsorc build without shields. Every other class can.

Dorrino

Derra wrote: »

I don´t know a NB who adapted to undodgeable birds + scorch that´s still running bow+2h fighting a capable opponent.

Now you do:)

I've been running 2h+bow for about 2 years now.

Good mag wardens are quite manageable in 1v1.

Good tanky stam wardens can't die, though. But then can't kill me if i don't make mistakes.

Derra wrote: »

Same as i don´t know a magsorc that adapted to shieldbreaker fighting a capable opponent.

You overestimate shieldbreaker. A good mag sorc can still stall the fight even against shieldbreaker. Resto ult takes care of it.

Derra wrote: »

And getting hit by 6k/s while healing for 2.5k and being able to attack while doing it is in what way different to getting hit for 3.7k/s healing for 2k but not being able to do anything else?

Who are you referring to with the last example?

Mag sorcs are more than capable to fight vs shieldbreaker giving out normal 'mag sorc level' return pressure.

Derra wrote: »

Just that you think magsorc is a top pvp class shows a very limited view on pvp.

Unfortunately (for you) it's quite hard to accuse me with the lack of pvp experience:) Ask people playing in NA server.

Derra wrote: »

The only classes that should have problems with magsorcs at all are stamblade and stamDK.
MagDK, -templar, -NB, -warden outclass magsorc or a flatout able to hardcounter them (outside of petspecs that aren´t vaible outside of duels).

Again unfortunately none of the classes/specs hardcounter mag sorcs.

This view, seems to show your limited view on pvp:P

Derra wrote: »

You think it´s unfair you can´t kill magsorcs 1v1.

Not me:)

I can reliably kill any mag sorc besides really good ones.

With the latter it's a draw.

Again you can't kill a really good mag sorc, the mag sorc can fail with simple defense they have and choose to die.

You can't force them. Even with shieldbreaker it's hard, long, and probably still not possible if they really want to survive.

Those who are easily killed with shieldbreaker, are quite easily killed without.

Derra wrote: »

But every time i get into that argument with a NB i ask them what realistic chance does the sorc have to kill the NB if you´re not a greedy idiot jumping in mines - the response always is: None.

If a nightblade is not 'jumping in mines' he doesn't fight that sorc:) He might as well just run away.

Derra wrote: »

So you can´t kill each other but their mechanic of not dying is somehow worse than yours and deserves a hardcounter that makes the whole class basically unplayable if enough people wear it? Always makes me wonder.

See above. And wardens.

Again you're overestimating shieldbreaker. If in your merntal picture you have 3-4 people ranged spamming shieldbreaker on the poor sorc, imaging 3-4 mag sorc spamming their balanced attacks on a nightblade. Or 3-4 wardens:)

As a nightblade i don't survive that if los is farther away than a 5 sec sprint.

Why would you want it to be different for mag sorcs?:)

Derra wrote: »

Meanwhile i play my NB and laugh at other NBs claiming sorcs are an overpowered class.

I play a mag sorc as well and i can easily claim it's overpowered in both pvp and pve. I'm sorry:)

Derra wrote: »

If you don´t figure in templar, DK or NB they are - and warden ironically hardcounters sorc so even if i can´t really assess their power relative to all other classes i know they don´t have issues with sorcs.

*sighs*

edit: btw when i say 'overpowered' i never mean 'i can't kill them'. I mean both their defense and offense require much less efforts to be overwhelmingly effective than most if not all other classes. Purely effort-to-effectiveness ratio.

Biro123

Yay for using ulti's for countering light attacks for a short while... How can anyone not see what's wrong with that?

Dorrino

Biro123 wrote: »

Yay for using ulti's for countering light attacks for a short while... How can anyone not see what's wrong with that?

You don't use ulti to counter light attacks. You use it to counter all the damage plus the shieldbreaker.

2.1k/sec is irrelevant on its own, unless the sorc is afk.

olsborg

Valencer wrote: »

Shieldbreaker is stupid... deal with it.

Pretty much yes. And yea medium armor needs buffs to be viable on anything, but a nightblade...and even there its relatively limited compared to heavy armor...but thats another discussion entirely.

Lord-Otto

Yeah, that heavy attack spam from sorcs is absolutely OP in PvE. With that 35k self-buffed parse while other classes, especially stam (DK), don't leave their bed before 40k. If it wasn't for Concussion support, sorcs would be much less desirable.

And in PvP, you know, with zergs left and right, sorcs with their non-scaling shields are so OP when attacked by two or more players. Really good in open combat, sorcs' supposed forté. While NBs can gank, temps heal, DKs CC; ON TOP of being balanced for open 1v1 combat. That's why EVERYONE in Cyro is magsorc. MagDK was never meta. Or bomblades. Or procblades. That time when 90% on the leaderboard was NBs. No, sorcs have been OP since day 1.

Guys, why are we even still listening to these ridiculous people? They clearly just want to push their biased agenda.

Derra, my magblade also laughs in PvP. Fear alone makes her ten times more dangerous than my sorc, but Cloak does let me escape situations my sorc would have died in.

Biro123

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yay for using ulti's for countering light attacks for a short while... How can anyone not see what's wrong with that?

You don't use ulti to counter light attacks. You use it to counter all the damage plus the shieldbreaker.

2.1k/sec is irrelevant on its own, unless the sorc is afk.

Not 2.1k that goes through every defence on a class with poor healing, it isn't.

Not 2.1k that any noob can equip, and light-attack from miles away with a weapon that is difficult to see where its coming from while you're already under pressure form someone else, it isn't. Cos PVP is always 1v1, right?

Not 2.1k that is a hard counter, where you have absolutely no idea that that hard counter is there before you decide to engage - meaning you have absolutely no way to gauge the odds, it isn't.

Perhaps 2.1k on a stam toon with Vigour always up and always critting and an on-demand burst heal every 20secs or so.. maybe there it would be irrelevant... But then you could just avoid half those attacks anyway.. so I guess it would be doubly irrelevant..

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

Now you do:)

I've been running 2h+bow for about 2 years now.

Good mag wardens are quite manageable in 1v1.

You overestimate shieldbreaker. A good mag sorc can still stall the fight even against shieldbreaker. Resto ult takes care of it.

How do i overestimate shieldbreaker?

Honest question - even if you can force a draw against shieldbreaker by using resto ult on cooldown (which you can´t from what i´ve tested unless you wear bloodspawn and heavily rely on line of sight) - do you think a magsorc can kill someone wearing shieldbreaker without using an offensive ultimate and without mine dmg - bc the nb does not have to jump in there the sorc has to play offensive.
I always love getting told by people how i don´t know how to play my main class. Show me an actual sorc player that can counter shieldbreaker lightattack spam on them for an extended period of time.

Any class that uses block as their main defense basically hardcounters any projectile build. If you can permablock against one opponent you should not die to a sorc (ie templar or DK).
Magwarden is untouchable by sorcs bc of shimmering acting as a boosted version of hardened. It´s shieldstacking on steriods against projectile based builds.
Magblade depends entirely on spec/gear - i´ve not had an equal fight against them so far.

Playing magsorc, magblade and magplar in pvp atm - i rate my sorc even though i have vastly more experience on the class than on the two others combines third by quite a large margin.
Because i don´t rate how easy it is to be effective but where the classes limits are. A templar or NB has vastly more potential compared to a sorc.

How have you managed to adapt to wardens? Perhaps because cloak is functional against them? Have you met one that used soultrap so far to eleminate the use of your main defense?

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Yay for using ulti's for countering light attacks for a short while... How can anyone not see what's wrong with that?

You don't use ulti to counter light attacks. You use it to counter all the damage plus the shieldbreaker.

2.1k/sec is irrelevant on its own, unless the sorc is afk.

See - shieldbreakers dps if spammed with bow lightattacks is 3600 because bow lightattacks fire every 0.6s.
Not that 2100 dps would be irrelevant - you don´t reach 2100 hps on sorc generally speaking.
Now add in oblivion enchant (+ infused) bc honestly if you´re going for shieldbreaker bow combining that is just consequent.

So you´re looking at 4000 to 4500 dps if you´re using your main defense.

But sure. No issue.

Dorrino

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that goes through every defence on a class with poor healing, it isn't.

if surge heals and healing ward heals are not enough to offset 2.1k a sec then probably there are some other skills that help with healing.

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that any noob can equip, and light-attack from miles away with a weapon that is difficult to see where its coming from while you're already under pressure form someone else, it isn't. Cos PVP is always 1v1, right?

Just like above-mentioned wardens.

And speaking of noobs. Any noob can spam a whole range of skills in xv1. That's exactly what you need to play around.

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that is a hard counter, where you have absolutely no idea that that hard counter is there before you decide to engage - meaning you have absolutely no way to gauge the odds, it isn't.

Again. Compare 2.1k with 6k from birds through dodge and let's cry on each other's shoulders about zos design.

Derra wrote: »

How do i overestimate shieldbreaker?

Honest question - even if you can force a draw against shieldbreaker by using resto ult on cooldown (which you can´t from what i´ve tested unless you wear bloodspawn and heavily rely on line of sight) - do you think a magsorc can kill someone wearing shieldbreaker without using an offensive ultimate and without mine dmg - bc the nb does not have to jump in there the sorc has to play offensive.

You seem to mix together 2 different uses of shield breaker. Bow light attack spam and front melee bar added damage.

The first one is irrelevant in 1v1 since you would just burst the guy down.

The first one in xv1 is annoying, but totally within pvp design philosophy.

Any good geared mag sorc in xv1 is a pain, why would we not nerf them to start with?

Derra wrote: »

I always love getting told by people how i don´t know how to play my main class.

Well, you made this claim about myself for some reason:)

Derra wrote: »

Show me an actual sorc player that can counter shieldbreaker lightattack spam on them for an extended period of time.

Any decent sorc can kill a solo shieldbreaker spammer.

See above about xv1.

Derra wrote: »

Any class that uses block as their main defense basically hardcounters any projectile build. If you can permablock against one opponent you should not die to a sorc (ie templar or DK).

This is a peculiar use of the word 'counter':) If you can't kill them it doesn't mean they counter you. They counter you if you can't survive.

Derra wrote: »

Magwarden is untouchable by sorcs bc of shimmering acting as a boosted version of hardened. It´s shieldstacking on steriods against projectile based builds.

Can they kill you, though?

Derra wrote: »

How have you managed to adapt to wardens? Perhaps because cloak is functional against them? Have you met one that used soultrap so far to eleminate the use of your main defense?

By kiting, as always. You can make them miss deep fissure. The rest is irrelevant as long as you kite for the duration of cc immunity from a pot.

To clarify - i'm talking exclusively about top mag wardens. Everythign below is easy with fears and cloaking around.

I don't count on cloak. It's good if it works. But that's too much too ask of it:)

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

You seem to mix together 2 different uses of shield breaker. Bow light attack spam and front melee bar added damage.

The first one is irrelevant in 1v1 since you would just burst the guy down.

What?

How would you burst a nb that literally only has to play defensive while lighattacking you (because you can´t outheal the dmg execept for 5s with using your ultimate)?
Are you kidding me? Have you ever been bursted down by a sorc while you were on range?

How do you even think you´d have the initiative in this fight. You miss ~8khp within the first second without shieldbreaker soundcue bc that does not work on attacks from stealth.

I´m sorry but this comment is so utterly disconnected from how fighting against someone with a brain using shieldbreaker plays out i don´t even know what to say.
Just try it. Use it on bowbar. Spam lightattacks while dodging/cloaking. If the sorc uses resto ulti - you have to play that game for ~15s longer (if they use lingering health + a hot you have to wait out a second resto). If the sorc uses an offensive ultimate you have to survive that - incap and return to lightattack spam and win.

We can agree that shieldbreaker on melee/frontbar is balanced. No issue taken in that. It can make for interesting fights. The issue is exclusively bowbar + oblivion glyph when spammend. It´s the most efficient use and if it´s used in a 1v1 by someone who does not get bursted down in one rotation (as mentioned in my first comment) - you´re toast unless you run/los.

CyrusArya

play a mag sorc as well and i can easily claim it's overpowered in both pvp and pve. I'm sorry:)

@Dorrino

I like you Miat and I respect you as a player, but I think you are extremely biased in this situation if you think sorc is as op as you claim or if you think that shield breaker is a reasonable counter.

You have a magicka sorc? Please come duel me and I'll show you exactly how to counter a sorc and how it's not as strong as you claim. And I'll do that on a stamblade...forget stamplar or another class that actually counters sorc. It's easy to think sorc is OP if you never actually face the situations in which it struggles.

I extend this challenge to anyone that thinks sorc is op and actually has one. If you think sorc is op and don't have one, your ignorant opinion is invalid.

Drummerx04

Derra wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

You seem to mix together 2 different uses of shield breaker. Bow light attack spam and front melee bar added damage.

The first one is irrelevant in 1v1 since you would just burst the guy down.

What?

How would you burst a nb that literally only has to play defensive while lighattacking you (because you can´t outheal the dmg execept for 5s with using your ultimate)?
Are you kidding me? Have you ever been bursted down by a sorc while you were on range?

How do you even think you´d have the initiative in this fight. You miss ~8khp within the first second without shieldbreaker soundcue bc that does not work on attacks from stealth.

I´m sorry but this comment is so utterly disconnected from how fighting against someone with a brain using shieldbreaker plays out i don´t even know what to say.

@Derra I've fought a NB ganker with shieldbreaker before, he basically chilled out at max range and spammed light attacks and dots and whenever I attacked him he would just cloak and reposition. Without an offensive ultimate from me, even a braindead light attack spammer can dodge a few attacks from max range and cloak away.

If I ever let my shields drop, he'd ambush me and drop an incap + standard stamblade burst

We really shouldn't be surprised by Dorrino's adamant defense that shieldbreaker is balanced pretty much because he is gearing with shieldbreaker in another thread, so obviously he doesn't want it nerfed.

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that goes through every defence on a class with poor healing, it isn't.

if surge heals and healing ward heals are not enough to offset 2.1k a sec then probably there are some other skills that help with healing.

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that any noob can equip, and light-attack from miles away with a weapon that is difficult to see where its coming from while you're already under pressure form someone else, it isn't. Cos PVP is always 1v1, right?

Just like above-mentioned wardens.

And speaking of noobs. Any noob can spam a whole range of skills in xv1. That's exactly what you need to play around.

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that is a hard counter, where you have absolutely no idea that that hard counter is there before you decide to engage - meaning you have absolutely no way to gauge the odds, it isn't.

Again. Compare 2.1k with 6k from birds through dodge and let's cry on each other's shoulders about zos design.

Derra wrote: »

How do i overestimate shieldbreaker?

Honest question - even if you can force a draw against shieldbreaker by using resto ult on cooldown (which you can´t from what i´ve tested unless you wear bloodspawn and heavily rely on line of sight) - do you think a magsorc can kill someone wearing shieldbreaker without using an offensive ultimate and without mine dmg - bc the nb does not have to jump in there the sorc has to play offensive.

You seem to mix together 2 different uses of shield breaker. Bow light attack spam and front melee bar added damage.

The first one is irrelevant in 1v1 since you would just burst the guy down.

The first one in xv1 is annoying, but totally within pvp design philosophy.

Any good geared mag sorc in xv1 is a pain, why would we not nerf them to start with?

Derra wrote: »

I always love getting told by people how i don´t know how to play my main class.

Well, you made this claim about myself for some reason:)

Derra wrote: »

Show me an actual sorc player that can counter shieldbreaker lightattack spam on them for an extended period of time.

Any decent sorc can kill a solo shieldbreaker spammer.

See above about xv1.

Derra wrote: »

Any class that uses block as their main defense basically hardcounters any projectile build. If you can permablock against one opponent you should not die to a sorc (ie templar or DK).

This is a peculiar use of the word 'counter':) If you can't kill them it doesn't mean they counter you. They counter you if you can't survive.

Derra wrote: »

Magwarden is untouchable by sorcs bc of shimmering acting as a boosted version of hardened. It´s shieldstacking on steriods against projectile based builds.

Can they kill you, though?

Derra wrote: »

How have you managed to adapt to wardens? Perhaps because cloak is functional against them? Have you met one that used soultrap so far to eleminate the use of your main defense?

By kiting, as always. You can make them miss deep fissure. The rest is irrelevant as long as you kite for the duration of cc immunity from a pot.

To clarify - i'm talking exclusively about top mag wardens. Everythign below is easy with fears and cloaking around.

I don't count on cloak. It's good if it works. But that's too much too ask of it:)

Surge heals rely on crits... which don't happen against dodge rolling stam SB builds, but if an attack does crit, then the heal is maybe 1k.

Sorcs generally aren't attacking during a shield rotation, so that's another 2-3 seconds of no crits... it does pair decently well with a dot you can place on multiple people, but destructive reach/clench is otherwise pretty underwhelming in the damage department, and the only other dot to even consider in most cases is entropy... but at that point you are also doubling up on major sorcery buff, or otherwise morphing to crit surge for literally just the marginally better HoT.

Honestly surge just isn't reliable enough in pvp (it's great in pve) to rely on in most situations, so a lot of sorcs don't slot it over entropy.

Healing ward is decent when it actually works instead of healing for 10 health, but the primary burst heal is on a 6 second delay and gets weakened significantly when the shield takes damage. The cast heal is completely negated by shieldbreaker.

And you handle magwarden in exactly the same way that you've always played the game on stamblade, and thus only top tier magwarden's are actually dangerous to you? So I guess warden's don't hard counter your build since only top magwarden are even a threat to you apparently. Good to know.

Biro123

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that goes through every defence on a class with poor healing, it isn't.

if surge heals and healing ward heals are not enough to offset 2.1k a sec then probably there are some other skills that help with healing.

Problem there is that surge helaing ward relies on low health for a strong heal.. AFTER 6 seconds. so it relies on the shield stopping you from dying during that time.. which isn't gonna fly with shieldbreaker..

Surge heals for half the amount, half the time = assuming that you can land an attack every single cd.. and they don't get dodged, or you're not busy healing/buffing/shielding/repositioning....

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that any noob can equip, and light-attack from miles away with a weapon that is difficult to see where its coming from while you're already under pressure form someone else, it isn't. Cos PVP is always 1v1, right?

Just like above-mentioned wardens.

Those birds that you can see from miles away, and know exactly what direction they're coming from.

Dorrino wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

Not 2.1k that is a hard counter, where you have absolutely no idea that that hard counter is there before you decide to engage - meaning you have absolutely no way to gauge the odds, it isn't.

Again. Compare 2.1k with 6k from birds through dodge and let's cry on each other's shoulders about zos design.

And I also believe that an undodgeable, ranged, spammable spammable shouldn't be in game either.

josh.lackey_ESO

The set is clearly bugged, and has been since it was introduced. It's called Shieldbreaker not Shieldbypasser.

Consider the tooltip text:

• When you deal damage with a Light or Heavy Attack against a Player with a damage shield, you deal an additional 2150 Oblivion Damage to them.

There is nothing to indicate it's supposed to deal damage that bypasses your shields and directly applies to your healthbar. If you didn't know how it worked from experience, you would assume that light and heavy attacks would do an additional 2150 damage to people with shields, and that the damage would ignore resistances because it is of the type Oblivion. Damage shields are not the same mechanic as resistances, and no place in the game describes them as the same mechanic.

This set has always been literally broken. You guys are debating whether or not the bugged damage is balanced or not. I think you ought to fix the bug first, then discuss whether a free 2150 extra damage to anyone with a damage shield is balanced or not.

Dorrino

@Derra

Derra wrote: »

,

What?

How would you burst a nb that literally only has to play defensive while lighattacking you (because you can´t outheal the dmg execept for 5s with using your ultimate)?

Exactly how you burst anybody else. Curse+frags+explosion. With ult as a flavor.

I don't really understand how can you make a single guy spamming light attack a problem.

All crits that you do heal you. Your potion heals you. A bunch of cp nodes heal you. Healing ward spam heals you both on application and on expiration. Your dark conversion heals you for a lot.

How do you even plan to die to a single guy spamming shieldbreaker?

Derra wrote: »

Are you kidding me? Have you ever been bursted down by a sorc while you were on range?

If i fail to defend (dodge/cloak/block frags) - easily.

Derra wrote: »

How do you even think you´d have the initiative in this fight. You miss ~8khp within the first second without shieldbreaker soundcue bc that does not work on attacks from stealth.

8k? 4 hits without you realizing what's going on? On a mag sorc? Solo?

This conversation becomes amusing. Unfortunately.

Derra wrote: »

I´m sorry but this comment is so utterly disconnected from how fighting against someone with a brain using shieldbreaker plays out i don´t even know what to say.

This comment is based on taking shieldbreaker damage from bow attacks and dealing shieldbreaker via both bow and 2h attacks. I'm not sure what other experience is necessary to make comments about shieldbreaker.

I run it on the front bar. Because it's bis currently.

Derra wrote: »

Just try it. Use it on bowbar. Spam lightattacks while dodging/cloaking.

I did. Sorcs heal to full without much problems. Good sorcs. Not a sorc that keep spamming hardened ward.

Derra wrote: »

If the sorc uses resto ulti - you have to play that game for ~15s longer (if they use lingering health + a hot you have to wait out a second resto). If the sorc uses an offensive ultimate you have to survive that - incap and return to lightattack spam and win.

Again, i don't know about any example (mine, friends, pvp streams - anything) about a good mag sorc having problems with shieldbreaker that you describe. On the contrary, all my information (firsthand and otherwise) strongly implies that a bow sb spamming guy is a huge annoyance in xv1. Nothing more. Just like any magicka sorcs for a stam nb.

Derra wrote: »

We can agree that shieldbreaker on melee/frontbar is balanced. No issue taken in that. It can make for interesting fights. The issue is exclusively bowbar + oblivion glyph when spammend. It´s the most efficient use and if it´s used in a 1v1 by someone who does not get bursted down in one rotation (as mentioned in my first comment) - you´re toast unless you run/los.

This is easily testable.

And so far all my tests prove this wrong. Unless infused shieldbreaker bow with oblivion dmg skews the results that much.

@CyrusArya

CyrusArya wrote: »

I like you Miat and I respect you as a player, but I think you are extremely biased in this situation if you think sorc is as op as you claim or if you think that shield breaker is a reasonable counter

I'm not sure how can i be biased if i fought thousands of mag sorcs on a nightblade, dozens of other players of all classes on my mag sorc and watched hundreds of hours (combined) of top pvp players playing mag sorcs.

I fought you specifically dozens of times. Could you claim that i failed to do a magic trick to reliably win there?

I know what a mag sorc does. I know what their opponents have to do to try to win. I know that if the mag sorc doesn't fail shielding and doesn't fail resource management it cannot be forced to die in 1v1.

That's what i know.
I know that i won't be able to die in 1v1 if i don't fail those 2 things as a mag sorc.

I know i won't die to one guy spamming shieldbreaker given decent pvp experience on a mag sorc (mostly muscle memory)

CyrusArya wrote: »

You have a magicka sorc? Please come duel me and I'll show you exactly how to counter a sorc and how it's not as strong as you claim.

What is that you're going to show me that i don't know already? I'm genuinely curious. People keep mentioning 'you just need to learn to counter them'. Let's assume you know the trick. Tell me, and everybody here what is that trick? I might be oblivious during all these years. Who knows, people can be stupid to any degree, myself included.

None of my friends in game knows that trick. Literally none of them. I have no idea about that trick at all. So if you indeed possess some knowledge dozens of decent-to-good pvp players fail to obtain during 2+ years of pvp - please help us.

But please, try to assume that 'wait out their shields before attacking' or 'weaken the shields before attacking' or 'interrupt dark conversion' or 'counterpressure on their ult' or something else of this caliber is well known and extensively used already.

CyrusArya wrote: »

if you never actually face the situations in which it struggles.

How is it not possible for me to know that there are situations where mag sorcs struggle? I never claimed the class can handle literally everything with ease. I said and i insist that the class handles a vast majority of pvp situations with noticeably greater efficiency than most if not all other classes. It's op not because it can't die. It's op because it's much harder for a mag sorc to die (and at the same time much easier to kill other players) than for most other specs.

CyrusArya wrote: »

I extend this challenge to anyone that thinks sorc is op and actually has one. If you think sorc is op and don't have one, your ignorant opinion is invalid.

My ignorant opinion will be perfectly valid until at least you'll be able to produce the description of the promised magic trick that beats magicka sorcs. Please indulge me.

Dorrino

Drummerx04 wrote: »

We really shouldn't be surprised by Dorrino's adamant defense that shieldbreaker is balanced pretty much because he is gearing with shieldbreaker in another thread, so obviously he doesn't want it nerfed.

This attitude towards other players is exactly what prevents meaningful discussions on this forum:)

People assume everybody's their enemy and doesn't care about the state of the game.

That other people would love for the game to be cheesy if only they could get those sweet-sweet kills, right?

You see, i don't care about shieldbreaker. Briarheart front does more damage and is more fun to use.

I picked shieldbreaker this patch because it allows to reduce ttk against healing ward spam. And, obviously, to make mag sorcs become a bit self-conscious about the power of their class.

The thing is i never get salty duel invites from anybody besides magicka sorcs.

One guy, playing a mag templar, after failing to 6v2 me and Miz even offered me a duel on his magicka sorc. You see, people are perfectly aware how disproportionately strong mag sorcs are. Which indeed leads to a superiority bias on some mag sorc players. They start thinking way too high about their pvp capabilities, forgetting which part their spec plays in there.

Shieldbreaker is a perfect method to return them back to earth.

At least i find it enjoyable.

But if, suddenly, shieldbreaker is removed from the game, i'll happily go back to briarheart and will keep mumbling 'damn sorc was at 1%hp' from time to time:) This is fine.

Drummerx04

Dorrino wrote: »

Drummerx04 wrote: »

We really shouldn't be surprised by Dorrino's adamant defense that shieldbreaker is balanced pretty much because he is gearing with shieldbreaker in another thread, so obviously he doesn't want it nerfed.

This attitude towards other players is exactly what prevents meaningful discussions on this forum:)

Exactly what attitude? All I did was point out that you actively sought out and use this set, so you will defend its use and functionality. Where exactly is that statement inaccurate or unnecessarily harsh or insulting?

And what meaningful discussion is being hindered exactly? The last 4+ pages of this thread have basically been:

• Shield breaker is OP for what it does
• No it isn't because...
• Yes it is because...
• You don't know sorcs like we do
• Yes we do know sorcs
• Sorcs are OP
• Parallels drawn with some other class
• Those parallels aren't really parallels
• If you were a good sorc shieldbreaker bypassing your primary defense wouldn't be a problem.
• Shieldbreaker is OP
• No it isn't, I just kill shield users with it all day long.
• Shieldbreaker further empowers Xv1
• You can't judge something based on how it performs Xv1
• Clearly sorcs are OP because I can't survive 4 sorcs cursing me at the same time.
• etc

At what point has either side of the debate acknowledged that the other side has merit? At this point, what can be gained by continuing this discussion?

Dorrino wrote: »

You see, i don't care about shieldbreaker. Briarheart front does more damage and is more fun to use.

I picked shieldbreaker this patch because it allows to reduce ttk against healing ward spam. And, obviously, to make mag sorcs become a bit self-conscious about the power of their class.

The thing is i never get salty duel invites from anybody besides magicka sorcs.

One guy, playing a mag templar, after failing to 6v2 me and Miz even offered me a duel on his magicka sorc. You see, people are perfectly aware how disproportionately strong mag sorcs are. Which indeed leads to a superiority bias on some mag sorc players. They start thinking way too high about their pvp capabilities, forgetting which part their spec plays in there.

Shieldbreaker is a perfect method to return them back to earth.

At least i find it enjoyable.

But if, suddenly, shieldbreaker is removed from the game, i'll happily go back to briarheart and will keep mumbling 'damn sorc was at 1%hp' from time to time:) This is fine.

So you don't care about shieldbreaker, but you'll post 9 times in defense of the set and state that you enjoy using it...

And the vast majority of my salty whispers or duel invites come from stamblades.

One stamblade in particular even mounted up with his 2 buddies to chase me half way around a keep to ult dump me and then tbag after whispering about my inevitable doom and his vast superiority and power over life and death in ESO for 30 minutes, and also whispered members of my evenly sized group (3v3) asking them to step aside to allow for an easier kill on me.

Dorrino

Drummerx04 wrote: »

Exactly what attitude? All I did was point out that you actively sought out and use this set, so you will defend its use and functionality. Where exactly is that statement inaccurate or unnecessarily harsh or insulting?

You assume that my words are meaningless. That i'm trying to 'defend' something that i enjoy to use because i enjoy to use it.

In the meanwhile i'm justifying shieldbreaker or similar mechanics only as an offset to the power of specific specs in the game.

Until there're no reliable ways to pressure mag sorcs and alike outside of zos's provided gimmick (or until Arya teaches us to counter sorcs), shieldbreaker should not be changed, because its purpose is too valuable to get rid of.

So on the topic. Even though shieldbreaker can be abused in a similar manner warden's birds can be, it plays a really important role of toning down otherwise outperforming pvp specs.

With the adjustments to those specs shieldbreaker might become redundant.

Ideally both adjustments (to shields and shieldbreaker) should happen in the same patch.

That's why this topic is not about shieldbreaker. It's about mag sorcs and whether shieldbreaker works as a solution to keep them at bay.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

At what point has either side of the debate acknowledged that the other side has merit? At this point, what can be gained by continuing this discussion?

Your 'side' definitely has merits. It's frustrating to play against shieldbreaker spam. But until you 'side' acknowledges the purpose of shieldbreaker and problems with shields and mag sorc's shields specifically, this thread won't go anywhere.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

So you don't care about shieldbreaker, but you'll post 9 times in defense of the set and state that you enjoy using it...

My sweet mag sorc:) I don't defend shieldbreaker. I'm showing the one-sidedness of the approach. And i'm helping to direct the discussion from 'i don't like it - get rid of it' to a much more constructive 'let's solve the problem shieldbreaker tries to solve differently, before we rework shieldbreaker'.

Drummerx04 wrote: »

And the vast majority of my salty whispers or duel invites come from stamblades.

One stamblade in particular even mounted up with his 2 buddies to chase me half way around a keep to ult dump me and then tbag after whispering about my inevitable doom and his vast superiority and power over life and death in ESO for 30 minutes, and also whispered members of my evenly sized group (3v3) asking them to step aside to allow for an easier kill on me.

Honestly i'd do a very similar thing to you specifically (besides teabagging part), because of your actions in the game. But that's outside of the topic at hand:)

Devilhand

Lord-Otto wrote: »

And you...
I was here before you and will be here after you left crying about classes.
I'm sure everyone in Cyro is a magsorc, absolutely. Your comment tells me that you simply lack any experience and are not here for a reasoned discussion. Best to ignore you, not worth anyone's time.

Dude...For real?

Yes you were here before me, and probably will be after me because YOU ARE THE ONE CRYING. And also, you are the one that lacks experience for your non-sense commentaries.

"dodgebreaker"?
Come on... I just dont want to waste my time explaining someone like you something that has been already writen by Dorrino (aka Miat) a couple of post behind. Go there and educate your self about the game...

and as far as I see you and Lilith are the ones pretty much complaining, not me.

And please please please, stop answering in forums, you will make everyone a favour.

PD: @Dorrino Keep up the good work, thank you for the support. Unfortunately they wont ever understand and will keep crying and calling us liars.

Lord-Otto

Ah, Miat.
The dude who specifically designed a counter to projectiles. I doubt that is a good argument.
And of course, the double standard. Shieldbreaker hardcounter is okay, because self-expiring, non-scaling shields have absolutely noooooo counter. But Dodgebreaker would be ridiculous, because everyone spams Pulsar left and right.
xD

Devilhand

Biro123 wrote: »

Thrymbauld wrote: »

Tried out Shield Breaker today. It's a set I'd been meaning to give a go, and just hadn't gotten around to it.

I have to say, it works pretty well

---

on guys that didn't bother to get themselves any health and don't have any health heals whatsoever on their bars, that is. I mean, it positively shreds folks sitting at sub 20k hp underneath all those shields.....unless they bother to have vigor or surge or even bother hitting with a dark magic attack, at that point it pretty much mitigates it since the shield is eating all the other damage.

People that actually prepare for the fights forced me to bother using skills as well as light attacking, and used things of their own to mitigate the direct health damage because seriously, it's 2500 damage per light attack, it's not like they can't outheal that with basic self maintenance.

Frankly, I haven't decided it I'm even going to keep it or just swap it out for something more globally useful.

Bit sorcs can't heal it with basic self maintenance.. They have no tools for that.

WRONG.
You have clearly a L2P issue.

There are plenty of counter to it, you just dont know them or even worse just cry in here because you dont want to adapt.

bardx86 wrote: »

Curse doesn't hit for 10k anymore. Curse is about 4-5k on anyone that has a good build. Frags is around 6-7 k.

WRONG.
My sorc hits regularly between 8 to 10k curses. You are doing it wrong. Dont take advice from the dude you quoted

Biro123 wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

The problem we had with proc sets was (primarily) that they allowed for no real counter play.

Look at some of the remedies we now have. The solution we got for Viper was to convert the large burst damage into a DOT ... the amount of damage didn't change, only that it now occurs over 8 seconds (or whatever the timeframe is). What was the solution to Selene? LOL! Now, a split second before the bear hits you over the head, the player will glow green.

Honestly, why are we complaining about Shield Breaker ... a set that has been around for a long long time. It doesn't do a single "high burst' of lethal damage like Viper used to do, but rather it does mediocre damage with each light attack (and it generally takes several attacks to kill someone).

So what if a new player can spam enough pew-pews to whittle down the health of someone wearing a damage shield to protect their low health build! I mean, who in the heck just stands there and allows themselves to be hit like that without taking any counter measures?

If you have a low health build that has just taken a hit on your health in pvp land ... well, you are going to be the focus of other pvp'ers anyway, whether they wear SB or not ... it's just the nature of pvp (focus on easy, low health, low CP targets (as well as healers)).

If you are a high health build/tank ... well ... immortality (near immortality) can't be allowed to exist in a game for obvious reasons. Such tanks are harmless you say? LOL! You can harm a player .... you can also harm a campaign ... one doesn't necessarily depend on the other.

So, viper did around 4k every 4 seconds.. Cos battle-spirit affected it. It was then further reduced by resists, shields, etc. And was melee only.

Shieldbreaker does 5k every 2 seconds, can not be reduced by anything and from range.
Viper was a baby compared to shieldbreaker.

WRONG, again.
Viper was universally good. With the right build and skill set up could hit over 6k dmg with battle spirit on, after the patch that didnt allow it to crit... Yep, learn ESO mechanics.
That allowed any NB, or stam class (harder), to burst any player in 2 shoots.
Specifically against sorcs, i take viper over shieldbreaker any time.

If you die to a SB user that is just sppaming light attacks on you... You should be ashamed.

Valencer wrote: »

As Devilhand tells us multiple times - we can adapt.

Med armor adapted to play around undodgable birds and undodgable AND unblockable scorch.

I trust mag sorcs are capable to adapt to shieldbreaker as well. It's a considerably easier task.
[/quote]

This is a stamblade being delusional. You didnt adapt to anything - your class simply gets saved by having access to cloak. Medium armour players are screwed on any other class.

So asking sorcs to adapt to something they simply cant adapt to unless they start running a build that cant kill anything that knows how to defend itself (serious sacrifices are needed to be able to heal effectively and constantly on a mag sorc) is really silly.

Shieldbreaker is stupid... deal with it.[/quote]

hmm... I dont think he is delusional. I adapted too.
And why other stam classes would want to go medium? the have better tools to survive wearing heavy due to class passives and skills, not to mentio they even get more damage from heavy sets. Its not like they want to wear medium, its just not worthy and they know it.

And lastly, THEY CAN ADAPT.

Scene: Mag sorc fighting a noob/cheesy SB user.
- SB user sppams Liaght attacks
- - Sorc sppams shields.
- Sorc dies.

Happens every time, and that says 1 thing... L2P.

Biro123 wrote: »

Guess what..? Shield-breaker damage ignores resists.. So can stack as much heavy armour as you want under those shields - and it doesn't make the blindest bit of difference..

Double-guess what? Sorcs have absolutely no choice other than to shield for their defence. Other magica classes get shield (from light armour) + something else.. heals, cloaks, reflects, etc.. Sorcs get NOTHING. I've been trying to come up with a viable magsorc build that doesn't have to rely on shields for quite a while now - y'know what? Haven't managed it. I'm open to any suggestions you may have of course..

Give me a break... Sorcs DO HAVE a lot of ways around it, no wonders you havent managed it.

davey1107

@Derra

You're really big into the logical fallacies when you talk about sorcs. You use the same arguments here that you use in my overly long posts about them being OP, lol. Someone says "sorcs are a little OP" then you say "I kill a lot of sorcs...blah blah bad attitude, how are they OP then...lots of sorcs die...blah blah ad hominem attack...blah..." Ha.

When people are complaining about Sorcs being OP, what they're saying is that they're like 10% more powerful...not infinitely more powerful. Let's imagine that one might be able to grade a player's performance based on a combination of player skills and toon capabilities. On my stamblades, I'd call my grade an A- based on my kill skill and survivability.

Under this hypothetical, I should generally be able to kill most any player graded less than me, having an easier time as the grades go lower. A B+ player should be disadvantaged slightly but have a solid shot at beating me, with a good performance or a little luck. A C+ player can kill me, but it's going to have to be pretty lucky. A D+ player will almost never kill me unless I utterly screw up, etc.

A class or build being OP means that whole curve is lifted. In an extreme OP situation, C+ players are now generally comparable to A- players of the other classes. In such a situation the bottom half of players in the OP class are still going to have it rough against good opponents. And B+ players will die a lot. But they'll all perform a little better than players of the same skill grade of other classes.

You don't have to agree that sorcs are OP...but your system of measuring whether this is the case or not is not mathematically sound or logical.

Alpheu5

Derra wrote: »

I don´t know of any player who has managed to make a competetive magsorc build without shields. Every other class can.

Because hardly anybody tries, and most of those that do give up on it because the playstyle paradigm is so atypical that it's like relearning the class from the ground up.

buttaface

Dorrino wrote: »

You don't use ulti to counter light attacks. You use it to counter all the damage plus the shieldbreaker. 2.1k/sec is irrelevant on its own, unless the sorc is afk.

Everyone reading the thread knows already its about maintaining insane tool tip damage numbers while sacking health and heals. That's what the whole debate is really about. "I want to have 20k of shields over my low health and near one shot with curse and frags with impunty. Slotting heals or defensive rune or running more health or all the tradeoffs other lesser beings have to make in this game is for thee and not for me" I wish one of them would just step up and admit it.

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

@Derra

Derra wrote: »

,

What?

How would you burst a nb that literally only has to play defensive while lighattacking you (because you can´t outheal the dmg execept for 5s with using your ultimate)?

Exactly how you burst anybody else. Curse+frags+explosion. With ult as a flavor.

I don't really understand how can you make a single guy spamming light attack a problem.

All crits that you do heal you. Your potion heals you. A bunch of cp nodes heal you. Healing ward spam heals you both on application and on expiration. Your dark conversion heals you for a lot.

How do you even plan to die to a single guy spamming shieldbreaker?

Derra wrote: »

Are you kidding me? Have you ever been bursted down by a sorc while you were on range?

If i fail to defend (dodge/cloak/block frags) - easily.

Derra wrote: »

How do you even think you´d have the initiative in this fight. You miss ~8khp within the first second without shieldbreaker soundcue bc that does not work on attacks from stealth.

8k? 4 hits without you realizing what's going on? On a mag sorc? Solo?

This conversation becomes amusing. Unfortunately.

Derra wrote: »

I´m sorry but this comment is so utterly disconnected from how fighting against someone with a brain using shieldbreaker plays out i don´t even know what to say.

This comment is based on taking shieldbreaker damage from bow attacks and dealing shieldbreaker via both bow and 2h attacks. I'm not sure what other experience is necessary to make comments about shieldbreaker.

I run it on the front bar. Because it's bis currently.

Derra wrote: »

Just try it. Use it on bowbar. Spam lightattacks while dodging/cloaking.

I did. Sorcs heal to full without much problems. Good sorcs. Not a sorc that keep spamming hardened ward.

Derra wrote: »

If the sorc uses resto ulti - you have to play that game for ~15s longer (if they use lingering health + a hot you have to wait out a second resto). If the sorc uses an offensive ultimate you have to survive that - incap and return to lightattack spam and win.

Again, i don't know about any example (mine, friends, pvp streams - anything) about a good mag sorc having problems with shieldbreaker that you describe. On the contrary, all my information (firsthand and otherwise) strongly implies that a bow sb spamming guy is a huge annoyance in xv1. Nothing more. Just like any magicka sorcs for a stam nb.

Derra wrote: »

We can agree that shieldbreaker on melee/frontbar is balanced. No issue taken in that. It can make for interesting fights. The issue is exclusively bowbar + oblivion glyph when spammend. It´s the most efficient use and if it´s used in a 1v1 by someone who does not get bursted down in one rotation (as mentioned in my first comment) - you´re toast unless you run/los.

This is easily testable.

And so far all my tests prove this wrong. Unless infused shieldbreaker bow with oblivion dmg skews the results that much.

Mind telling me what these sorcs are healing with?
Anything short of healingsprings is not able to outheal shieldbreaker. Add to that you can´t use an offensive ultimate to begin with.

Have these good sorcs actually fought someone they consider good that resorted to just spamming shieldbreaker because they can?

Ofc we can argue from the point that a bow lightattack spammer dies to one offensive rotation. But the sorc dies to one incap combo aswell - if that´s the skilllevel we´re arguing on.
You´ve said yourself it´s hard to die to a sorc if you don´t jump into mines - which you never have to do if you run sb on bow.

davey1107 wrote: »

@Derra

You're really big into the logical fallacies when you talk about sorcs. You use the same arguments here that you use in my overly long posts about them being OP, lol. Someone says "sorcs are a little OP" then you say "I kill a lot of sorcs...blah blah bad attitude, how are they OP then...lots of sorcs die...blah blah ad hominem attack...blah..." Ha.

When people are complaining about Sorcs being OP, what they're saying is that they're like 10% more powerful...not infinitely more powerful. Let's imagine that one might be able to grade a player's performance based on a combination of player skills and toon capabilities. On my stamblades, I'd call my grade an A- based on my kill skill and survivability.

Under this hypothetical, I should generally be able to kill most any player graded less than me, having an easier time as the grades go lower. A B+ player should be disadvantaged slightly but have a solid shot at beating me, with a good performance or a little luck. A C+ player can kill me, but it's going to have to be pretty lucky. A D+ player will almost never kill me unless I utterly screw up, etc.

A class or build being OP means that whole curve is lifted. In an extreme OP situation, C+ players are now generally comparable to A- players of the other classes. In such a situation the bottom half of players in the OP class are still going to have it rough against good opponents. And B+ players will die a lot. But they'll all perform a little better than players of the same skill grade of other classes.

You don't have to agree that sorcs are OP...but your system of measuring whether this is the case or not is not mathematically sound or logical.

Maybe that´s bc i don´t want to argue if sorc is op or not.
I have no issues with the class and don´t die to them. The best a sorc can hope for (outside of a pet build) is a stalemate. Sorcs that are not good die.
Mainly playing NB and a little templar as of late i can hardly think of why someone would actually argue about sorc bein OP. I only perceive the class as very limited.

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable - and that a hardcounter mechanic to one classes core defense mechanic (the only one mind you) is bullcrap.
I can´t outheal 4k dps on sorc. I´m a pretty decent sorc. Not the best probably but i´m pretty well known for soloing on PC EU since the games release.

I will die to someone who´s able to survive sorc offense for more than a minute that knows how and whem to spam shieldbreaker with a bow on me.
So far nobody could provide me with sound advice how to counter it. All i get is anecdotal references that "stream buddys and the likes dont have an issue".
Well i didn´t have an issue aswell because 99% of sb users are idiots that die in one rotation because all they ever did was spam lightattacks.
Then i´ve met good players using it - those that can stalemate me even without shieldbreaker.
All my sorc peers on PC EU that i´ve asked told me they can´t counter it aswell.
So far i only have NBs telling me that you can easily outheal it...

Derra

buttaface wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

You don't use ulti to counter light attacks. You use it to counter all the damage plus the shieldbreaker. 2.1k/sec is irrelevant on its own, unless the sorc is afk.

Everyone reading the thread knows already its about maintaining insane tool tip damage numbers while sacking health and heals. That's what the whole debate is really about. "I want to have 20k of shields over my low health and near one shot with curse and frags with impunty. Slotting heals or defensive rune or running more health or all the tradeoffs other lesser beings have to make in this game is for thee and not for me" I wish one of them would just step up and admit it.

The thing is.

I don´t stack shields. I only use hardened not harness. One of the main issues when encountering shieldbreaker - you need more shields to cover your healing ward.
The counter to shieldbreaker is running more shields and one dimensional builds. Ironically what you complain about.

But yeah everyone is on an agenda

Anyway @buttaface mind telling me which heal to slot on top of surge healingward and rapidregen to outheal shieldbreaker?

Alpheu5 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I don´t know of any player who has managed to make a competetive magsorc build without shields. Every other class can.

Because hardly anybody tries, and most of those that do give up on it because the playstyle paradigm is so atypical that it's like relearning the class from the ground up.

@Alpheu5 or it might be that the class just does not support it as well as other classes.
NB, templar, warden and DK work well in light armor without a shield - because they have more or less reliable class healing mechanics.
The only reliable heal sorc gets is a bird with 12k hp - that ironically needs a shield to stay alive for more than one second.

Sorc class simply has no access to healing that would be even near sufficient to substitute for shields. I´ve known countless players who tried and i´ve tried a handful of times myself wasting probably hundreds of gold mats in the process.

I have not found a way. I´ve never seen anyone who found a way.

Compared to that it took my shield magblade half an hour to come up with a light amor build without shields that was competetive. But yeah it´s the sorc community...

Sharee

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

Derra

Sharee wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

I´m arguing that shieldbreaker isn´t counterable

How many times did you die to someone spamming you with shieldbreaker light attacks 1v1 since the set was released?

Every time it was used by a capable NB. So probably between 10 and 20 times - though the set was a lot less usable before the introduction of weapons for IC sets.
That goes for without using los - i don´t consider using line of sight a valid tactic for 1v1 encounters as basically nobody dies when using los.

Add to that that most NBs i know/talk to just think using that set on bowbar is simply beneath them as most admit it is indeed not realisticly counterable.
So the majority of players you encounter wearing it are indeed curse fury fragment pulse dead material. I only talk about those that are not.

Where do you want to go with that question?

Drazkyth

QQing about a counter to your noob friendly class. Hilarious.