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Shieldbreaker escaped proc set nerfs
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KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
0 -
generalmyrick✭✭✭✭✭
✭So you have a counter to your build
I think your supposed to isn't that the point
i agree...
what's the stamblade (i have one, but don't play it much) supposed to do? come to the forum and ask for a nerfing of mag shields?
if the shields get nerfed? you come and ask for shields back? then the stam blade will ask for proc sets back? mmm, i think mag shields (i use them 90% of the time!) are quite op as it is."The red pill and its opposite, the blue pill, are a popular cultural meme, a metaphor representing the choice between:
Knowledge, freedom, uncertainty and the brutal truths of reality (red pill)
Security, happiness, beauty, and the blissful ignorance of illusion (blue pill)"
Insight to Agree to Awesome Ratio = 1:6.04:2.76 as of 1/25/2019
Compared to people that I've ignored = I am 18% more insightful, 20% less agreeable, and 88% more awesome.1 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
And most sorcs will also have 0 points into healing received and healing done.
There may be more attacks that can hit through dodge roll, but with the exception of ultimate abilities and wardens, most classes don't have much to spam against a dodge build, which still generally runs fairly strong HoTs and maybe troll king health regen.
Shields have a hard cap per sorc on the amount of damage they can mitigate per second if just spammed continuously, while dodge roll could literally dodge the direct damage skills from a 24 man group dealing 0 damage. Are dodge builds upset by destro bomb trains? I mean guess what, those generally come with negates and unblockable CC's which will prevent shield casting and usually result in instant death.
There are two cases where I think dodge builds may have actual cause for complaints - Soul Assault and warden bird spam.
PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
Notable Completions:
vAS (72k), vMoL HM (160k), vAA HM (135k), vHRC HM, vSO HM (141k), vHoF HM (168k), vCR+3(129k), vDSA 45k, vMA 591k
Original Addons:
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Bot Scanner 2000
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Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Strawman argument. Not all dodge counters are accessible for everyone nor can most of them be spammed at will.
There is no comparable situation ingame to the relationship of sorc to shieldbreaker. It hardcounters the class in magica specs unless the sorc runs a petbuild.
Detect pot and NB.
Timer based - same as soulassault.
Mark target would have been comparable - but that´s nb specific.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Most sorcs use those points into for example might and ironclad which reduce the damage shields take from those attacks.Not to mentioned shadowrend or pirate skeleton which reduce the damage shields take by 15-30%.All sorcs use Restro ultimate which give major protection and force.Drummerx04 wrote: »
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
And most sorcs will also have 0 points into healing received and healing done.
There may be more attacks that can hit through dodge roll, but with the exception of ultimate abilities and wardens, most classes don't have much to spam against a dodge build, which still generally runs fairly strong HoTs and maybe troll king health regen.
Shields have a hard cap per sorc on the amount of damage they can mitigate per second if just spammed continuously, while dodge roll could literally dodge the direct damage skills from a 24 man group dealing 0 damage. Are dodge builds upset by destro bomb trains? I mean guess what, those generally come with negates and unblockable CC's which will prevent shield casting and usually result in instant death.
There are two cases where I think dodge builds may have actual cause for complaints - Soul Assault and warden bird spam.
Stambuild have to fight melee.Magic has access to more abilities that go through dodge roll than stam does.If there anymore abilities that went through dodge roll stam would be died imagine if crystal frags were undodgable every meduim stambuild 8k curse with a 9k frag GG.IF classes had more things to spam against dodge roll dodge rolling would be useless/meduim would be useless.
One most 24 man groups run few Single target dodgeable abilities usually tbey fight groups there sizes or bigger,So funnel or force pulse the whole 24 man wouldn't be just DPS.That stam build has about 15 dodge rolls in a row before he out of stam less if he not wearing all well fitted.While there a hard CAP for how much damage you can take its a hard CAP to how much rolling I can do.Lets not add healing to the mix.If I just dodge roll multiple times in a row not waiting out the 4 second cooldown ill run out of stam before you rub oiut of magic spamming your shields. Everyone die to a 24 Destro train unless they like you and I'm not a likeable guy they told me.
I have yet to see a time were a magsorc has a right to complain.0 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Strawman argument. Not all dodge counters are accessible for everyone nor can most of them be spammed at will.
There is no comparable situation ingame to the relationship of sorc to shieldbreaker. It hardcounters the class in magica specs unless the sorc runs a petbuild.
Detect pot and NB.
Timer based - same as soulassault.
Mark target would have been comparable - but that´s nb specific.
I thought we were still talking outnumbered. I already said, after all, that 1v1 this wasn't an issue and the consensus was that was correct.
One person popping one detect pot = GG nightblade, if you bring them out of stealth. You hard counter their class specific defense, and when there are more people you benefit more from split up times.
Or, alternatively, we can acknowledge that it's a numbers problem, not a SB problem. Either or.Edited by DocFrost72 on September 6, 2017 8:10PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Strawman argument. Not all dodge counters are accessible for everyone nor can most of them be spammed at will.
There is no comparable situation ingame to the relationship of sorc to shieldbreaker. It hardcounters the class in magica specs unless the sorc runs a petbuild.
Detect pot and NB.
Timer based - same as soulassault.
Mark target would have been comparable - but that´s nb specific.
I thought we were still talking outnumbered. I already said, after all, that 1v1 this wasn't an issue and the consensus was that was correct.
One person popping one detect pot = GG nightblade, if you bring them out of stealth. You hard counter their class specific defense, and when there are more people you benefit more from split up times.
Or, alternatively, we can acknowledge that it's a numbers problem, not a SB problem. Either or.
1v1 shieldbreaker only isn´t an issue if you consider bolting into the sunset a valid tactic in that regard.
I´ve never actually fought a capable player (because most think/thought of themselves better than that) with shieldbreaker up to a few days ago. You can´t fight it as a sorc. It´s that simple.
Assuming roughly comparable skill someone with shieldbreaker on bowbar who knows what they´re doing will toast you flatout (as in outhealing 1 lightattack will cost you roughly 3500 magica - which is not sustainable for any build that i know of).Edited by Derra on September 6, 2017 8:41PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Sedare✭✭✭I've been forced to use Shilebreaker due to the overpower that is double and tri-shields. Rarely will you kill a shieldy just from the shieldbreaker proc solo. It's a nuisance and fun to make shield abusers scared, but it doesn't do enough. Burst is a key and nerfing the resto shield's heal is the other or just shields in general.
And no, Shieldbreaker does not need nerfing.Edited by Sedare on September 6, 2017 8:42PM1 -
DocFrost72✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Strawman argument. Not all dodge counters are accessible for everyone nor can most of them be spammed at will.
There is no comparable situation ingame to the relationship of sorc to shieldbreaker. It hardcounters the class in magica specs unless the sorc runs a petbuild.
Detect pot and NB.
Timer based - same as soulassault.
Mark target would have been comparable - but that´s nb specific.
I thought we were still talking outnumbered. I already said, after all, that 1v1 this wasn't an issue and the consensus was that was correct.
One person popping one detect pot = GG nightblade, if you bring them out of stealth. You hard counter their class specific defense, and when there are more people you benefit more from split up times.
Or, alternatively, we can acknowledge that it's a numbers problem, not a SB problem. Either or.
1v1 shieldbreaker only isn´t an issue if you consider bolting into the sunset a valid tactic in that regard.
I´ve never actually fought a capable player (because most think/thought of themselves better than that) with shieldbreaker up to a few days ago. You can´t fight it as a sorc. It´s that simple.
Assuming roughly comparable skill someone with shieldbreaker on bowbar who knows what they´re doing will toast you flatout (as in outhealing 1 lightattack will cost you roughly 3500 magica - which is not sustainable for any build that i know of).
I guess you really don't want to use mutagen, to the point you'll say shieldbreaker makes it impossible to win a 1v1 as a sorc.
I can't contribute anymore (constructively) to that conversation, sorry.2 -
Brazilionaire✭✭✭I've only seen trashy players running shield breaker. They're usually bowtard stamblades hitting you from the backline who might as well have only one skill in their bar (cloak) and and a five-piece set, nothing else.
You wanna keep the set and damage as is? Fine by me, just add one word to it: "When you deal MELEE damage..."Brazilionaire [PC-NA]2 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Strawman argument. Not all dodge counters are accessible for everyone nor can most of them be spammed at will.
There is no comparable situation ingame to the relationship of sorc to shieldbreaker. It hardcounters the class in magica specs unless the sorc runs a petbuild.
Detect pot and NB.
Timer based - same as soulassault.
Mark target would have been comparable - but that´s nb specific.
I thought we were still talking outnumbered. I already said, after all, that 1v1 this wasn't an issue and the consensus was that was correct.
One person popping one detect pot = GG nightblade, if you bring them out of stealth. You hard counter their class specific defense, and when there are more people you benefit more from split up times.
Or, alternatively, we can acknowledge that it's a numbers problem, not a SB problem. Either or.
1v1 shieldbreaker only isn´t an issue if you consider bolting into the sunset a valid tactic in that regard.
I´ve never actually fought a capable player (because most think/thought of themselves better than that) with shieldbreaker up to a few days ago. You can´t fight it as a sorc. It´s that simple.
Assuming roughly comparable skill someone with shieldbreaker on bowbar who knows what they´re doing will toast you flatout (as in outhealing 1 lightattack will cost you roughly 3500 magica - which is not sustainable for any build that i know of).
I guess you really don't want to use mutagen, to the point you'll say shieldbreaker makes it impossible to win a 1v1 as a sorc.
I can't contribute anymore (constructively) to that conversation, sorry.
Mutagen heals ~650 to 1100 every 1.5s
Shieldbreaker has ~3700 dps.
Mutagen can not outheal shieldbreaker.
Rapid regen (which heals every second) can not outheal shieldbreaker.
Blessing of restoration can not outheal shieldbreaker (this is where it gets interesting).
Healing springs can - barely (you´ll most likely want the other morph here).
Rapid regen + healing ward spam can just about stall your hp vs shieldbreaker.
All of these cost a tremendous amount of resources compared to free lightattacks.
If you´re really trying to tell me that slotting mutagen will allow me to reasonably combat someone who´s not a potatoe using shieldbreaker - i´m sorry you have not been contributing contructively to this discussion at all.
I´m not talking about players that die to curse fury soulassault or curse fury dawnbreaker fragment. I talk about those that survive your offensive ultimate and make you bite your behind for not having used resto.Edited by Derra on September 6, 2017 9:10PM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Kram8ion✭✭✭✭✭Simple if you're dying to shield breaker it's most definitely L2P
Edited by Kram8ion on September 6, 2017 9:34PMAussie lag is real!1 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »DocFrost72 wrote: »Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Strawman argument. Not all dodge counters are accessible for everyone nor can most of them be spammed at will.
There is no comparable situation ingame to the relationship of sorc to shieldbreaker. It hardcounters the class in magica specs unless the sorc runs a petbuild.
Detect pot and NB.
Timer based - same as soulassault.
Mark target would have been comparable - but that´s nb specific.
I thought we were still talking outnumbered. I already said, after all, that 1v1 this wasn't an issue and the consensus was that was correct.
One person popping one detect pot = GG nightblade, if you bring them out of stealth. You hard counter their class specific defense, and when there are more people you benefit more from split up times.
Or, alternatively, we can acknowledge that it's a numbers problem, not a SB problem. Either or.
1v1 shieldbreaker only isn´t an issue if you consider bolting into the sunset a valid tactic in that regard.
I´ve never actually fought a capable player (because most think/thought of themselves better than that) with shieldbreaker up to a few days ago. You can´t fight it as a sorc. It´s that simple.
Assuming roughly comparable skill someone with shieldbreaker on bowbar who knows what they´re doing will toast you flatout (as in outhealing 1 lightattack will cost you roughly 3500 magica - which is not sustainable for any build that i know of).
I guess you really don't want to use mutagen, to the point you'll say shieldbreaker makes it impossible to win a 1v1 as a sorc.
I can't contribute anymore (constructively) to that conversation, sorry.
Mutagen doesn't outheal shieldbreaker. I really want to see how you easily outheal shieldbreaker while putting enough damage on the opponent to actually kill him (the shieldbreaker can also add overbuffed Major Defile on top of that if they are true tryhards).I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.1 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭DocFrost72 wrote: »
I guess you really don't want to use mutagen, to the point you'll say shieldbreaker makes it impossible to win a 1v1 as a sorc.
I can't contribute anymore (constructively) to that conversation, sorry.
See, once again, it's not that shieldbreaker makes it impossible to win. Crap players on shieldbreaker are still crap players, sure they can now pressure me pretty hard, but will likely die to one little combo and still be pretty ineffective.
Shieldbreaker scales in effectiveness with players that also don't suck at their class. So you take a couple shieldbreaker hits you put on your mutagen and take a 9-12k incap from stealth getting CC'd and defiled, break free at which point all your shields are gone and you take another 2-3k light attack and 5k surprise attack which bypassed your shields as you cast them because server latency, so now you are at like 5k health taking active pressure from both shieldbreaker and execute damage.
Either way, shieldbreaker is applying massive amounts of pressure. What people don't seem to acknowledge is that damage gets through shields already if the sorc is going offensive at all, and whatever tiny hots we get through surge or mutagen goes to fixing that damage. Shieldbreaker therefore negates all of those hots and then deals some extra damage on top of it.
You want a combo to really *** off the sorcs? I ran into an infused oblivion, shield breaker, knight slayer, heavy bow attack the other day. Hits like a third of my health to oblivion damage for every heavy attack.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
Notable Completions:
vAS (72k), vMoL HM (160k), vAA HM (135k), vHRC HM, vSO HM (141k), vHoF HM (168k), vCR+3(129k), vDSA 45k, vMA 591k
Original Addons:
Lilith's Group Manager
Lilith's Lazy Hacks - Auto Recharge/Repair
Bot Scanner 2000
Lilith's Command History
Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
As far as my peers go I seem to be a somewhat capable sorc. I´ve made roughly 90 million ap on the class now mainly playing solo and in small groups.
I can assure you if i fight a somewhat capable opponent using it i will die if i don´t escape (note that this is exclusively limited to bow LA spam) - because i can neither outheal the dmg for longer periods of time nor can i kill my opponent fast enough.
I asked other sorcs what they do about it. With responses ranging from: "curse fury soulassault hope he sucks" to "that´s one of the reasons i´m playing templar now - lol"
What i didn´t hear was even one player saying shieldbreaker was counterable for them over an extended period of time.Edited by Derra on September 7, 2017 10:27AM<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Drummerx04✭✭✭✭✭
✭
As far as my peers go I seem to be a somewhat capable sorc. I´ve made roughly 90 million ap on the class now mainly playing solo and in small groups.
I can assure you if i fight a somewhat capable opponent using it i will die if i don´t escape - because i can neither outheal the dmg for longer periods of time nor can i kill my opponent fast enough.
I asked other sorcs what they do about it. With responses ranging from: "curse fury soulassault hope he sucks" to "that´s one of the reasons i´m playing templar now - lol"
What i didn´t hear was even one player saying shieldbreaker was counterable for them over an extended period of time.
Thank you. I make no claims to be the greatest sorc in the world, but I like to think that anyone that fights with or against me recognizes that I'm at least competent with my class, and you sound like you are in the same position. It is therefore nice to see we and other sorcs share the same opinion of the set.
If we can't kill you immediately, our only options are to run away or die.
A pet or resto ult sorc can maybe sustain through shieldbreaker, but at the expense of popping a defensive ult on cooldown, or casting extra healing from a pet taking up 2 skill slots and basically wasting global cooldowns. Either way, the damage pressure from just shieldbreaker is enough to force the sorc to attack far less.
We saw plenty of complaints against damage from sets overperforming in pvp. It's amazing that the community would be so hypocritical when it comes to a set like this.PC/NA - Nightfighters, Raid Leader and Officer
Lilith Arujo - DC sorc tank/dps/healer - Dro-m'Athra Destroyer, Gryphon Heart, Grand Warlord
Lilith Tortorici - DC templar trials healer
Notable Completions:
vAS (72k), vMoL HM (160k), vAA HM (135k), vHRC HM, vSO HM (141k), vHoF HM (168k), vCR+3(129k), vDSA 45k, vMA 591k
Original Addons:
Lilith's Group Manager
Lilith's Lazy Hacks - Auto Recharge/Repair
Bot Scanner 2000
Lilith's Command History
Maintained Addons:
Kill Counter0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
Point is, you split between Precise and Shattering, as specializing in one will leave you vulnerable to the other defense type. And that is your counter. Both won't work on a successful dodge, and all non-dodgable moves are intentionally weak or ultimates. With the special exception of birds for balancing purposes.0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
Point is, you split between Precise and Shattering, as specializing in one will leave you vulnerable to the other defense type. And that is your counter. Both won't work on a successful dodge, and all non-dodgable moves are intentionally weak or ultimates. With the special exception of birds for balancing purposes.
I don´t think birds being undodgeable is a good move balancingwise though.
Hardcounters are just bad gamedesign. It makes the receiving end unenjoyable.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 501 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
Point is, you split between Precise and Shattering, as specializing in one will leave you vulnerable to the other defense type. And that is your counter. Both won't work on a successful dodge, and all non-dodgable moves are intentionally weak or ultimates. With the special exception of birds for balancing purposes.
I don´t think birds being undodgeable is a good move balancingwise though.
Hardcounters are just bad gamedesign. It makes the receiving end unenjoyable.
That's a key part of the problem - along with the fact that those hard-counters are not recognisable in advance (well, I guess you can spot a Warden - but not a shieldbreaker-user). There are competetive games out there that do use hard counters, and/or rock/paper/scissors style gameplay - but with these, you KNOW what their toolkit is just by looking at them.. I mean, you come across the rock to your scissors, and you immediately start making distance, going defensive, buying time, asking for help etc...
With shieldbreaker you have no clue its there.. you can be knee-deep in a situation that you were reasonably confident you could handle - then you hear that noise, and know its time to go and put the kettle-on... The point is - if you knew it was there in advance, you wouldn't have engaged in the first place - or would have been much more wary, skirting the outskirts and kiting more from the beginning of the combat.
That's my single, biggest problem with it. When a counter is that hard - you should know that its coming.
I also don't like that I can't play while listening to my music anymore - cos I need to hear those shieldbreaker audio-queues.
And I don't like that it makes a total noob who would normally have no chance against you into someone you have to run from.
Edited by Biro123 on September 7, 2017 10:03AMMinalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.2 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Adding points to shattering blows isn't a great counter when mighty ,ironclad reduce the damage shields take on top of Bastion 20%.Your still gonna have stronger shields than damage On a balanced Build for a stam Build VS a Balanced standards Magic sorc CP setup Shield will be stronger.
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
Point is, you split between Precise and Shattering, as specializing in one will leave you vulnerable to the other defense type. And that is your counter. Both won't work on a successful dodge, and all non-dodgable moves are intentionally weak or ultimates. With the special exception of birds for balancing purposes.
Let's talk about all the weak undodgable abilities like curse that hit me meduim build 8k damage while having Blood spawn up and major resolve and ward.Most undodgable abilities are magic and used in your build For example sweeps,curse,POTL.Only stam ability that you would use that undodgeable is Jabs and hurricane.There no reason for wardens birds to be undodgable other than making the class you have to pay for even stronger.
Only hard counter for shield stacking is shield breaker and knightslayer.I will say a Fury Shield breaker Blood spawn S&B Stamdk dueling build wouldn't be bad setup and would really hurt a low health stamdk trying to pop igneous.Probably the build @Derra .0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Except curse doesn't hit for 8k in those circumstances...
I crit someone for a 1k curse yesterday - and I don't exactly run a low-damage build.Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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I get hit for 8k curse all the time on my stamblade with BS up.Except curse doesn't hit for 8k in those circumstances...
I crit someone for a 1k curse yesterday - and I don't exactly run a low-damage build.
I want to know what they guy was running to only be hit by a 1k curse.He would have to have major protection,main even with your penetration have max resistance.This is intresting.Edited by KingJ on September 7, 2017 1:11PM0 -
Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Only hard counter for shield stacking is shield breaker and knightslayer.I will say a Fury Shield breaker Blood spawn S&B Stamdk dueling build wouldn't be bad setup and would really hurt a low health stamdk trying to pop igneous.Probably the build @Derra .
What hurts the most is lightattack spam with a bow - best coupled with an oblivion glyph for full cheddar.<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 500 -
KingJ✭✭✭✭✭
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Full Gouda but that setup stops the Curse fury soul assault combo.Only hard counter for shield stacking is shield breaker and knightslayer.I will say a Fury Shield breaker Blood spawn S&B Stamdk dueling build wouldn't be bad setup and would really hurt a low health stamdk trying to pop igneous.Probably the build @Derra .
What hurts the most is lightattack spam with a bow - best coupled with an oblivion glyph for full cheddar.
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Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
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Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
Point is, you split between Precise and Shattering, as specializing in one will leave you vulnerable to the other defense type. And that is your counter. Both won't work on a successful dodge, and all non-dodgable moves are intentionally weak or ultimates. With the special exception of birds for balancing purposes.
I don´t think birds being undodgeable is a good move balancingwise though.
Hardcounters are just bad gamedesign. It makes the receiving end unenjoyable.
I agree. But, this was ZOS' decision. I'm just explaining their reasoning.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
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Adding points to shattering blows isn't a great counter when mighty ,ironclad reduce the damage shields take on top of Bastion 20%.Your still gonna have stronger shields than damage On a balanced Build for a stam Build VS a Balanced standards Magic sorc CP setup Shield will be stronger.
Who the hell put 100 points into precise strikes?No one one.With putting points into bless,Master at arms,Pen,mighty probably gonna only have 10% into shattering blows while most sorc gonna have 20% into boosting bastion.While Dodge roll has many hard counters shields have few.Drummerx04 wrote: »EdmundTowers wrote: »Is there really groups out in cyro running shield breaker?
Yes, you know those AD stamblade groups? I've encountered the same groups and players for months now. At least 4 of them are now primarily running shield breaker (good stamblades, not ones that just roll over and die when you look at them), or at the very least slot it when they see me coming (yeah kudos for planning ahead).Groups in shield breaker sounds hilarious but unlikely
Come talk to me when you encounter 2 grand overlord, permadodge, shade porting, cloaking stamblades each running shieldbreaker, and running with a magDK for lockdown and dot pressure.
Oh, or my personal favorite. A pack of 6 Werewolves and one or two of them were wearing shieldbreaker.How to avoid shieldbreaker proc damage:
Dont spam cast your shields-> no shield means no proc damage
Oh? Don't cast shields? Wow, why didn't I think of that? Oh right, because a NB running shieldbreaker can still land an 8k incap.
@DocFrost72 For the suggestion to run mutagen and critsurge to counter shieldbreaker, I want to point out that you have to be actively dealing damage and landing hits for surge to proc. You are not attacking while shielding the rest of the damage, and you are not landing hits that get dodged or "missed" with cloak. Add in more time lost for breaking CC or dodging or even blocking a CC.
But a real player will also apply actual damage in a 1v1, and if the player is even a little decent, some of that damage will make it through the shields. Your mutagen and surge get overcome very quickly in practice. Yes, resto ult is also an option, but at that point you are sacrificing offensive burst which you NEED to kill some of the players pressuring with this set. Miat's and similar addons make dodging frag burst a joke.
Look, I understood that this topic would be unpopular because sorcs are just so OP, and thus people think it's fair or their right to bypass shields with oblivion damage. Hell in zone chat I'll see complaints that 5+ people couldn't kill this one magsorc then subsequently wiped to him, then some random 300CP AR16 stamblade and I go in and kill him within a minute or two. But we can't call that an L2P issue or we trigger someone else.
Let me propose some 5 piece sets to give you an idea of why shieldbreaker is basically broken powerful.
Dodgebreaker: If your enemy dodges your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
Guardbreaker: If your enemy blocks your light or heavy attacks, you deal (inseart shieldbreaker oblivion damage).
I mean what's the problem? If you don't dodge or block the light attacks then you won't take any damage from the set... Oh wait, that's your primary method of mitigating damage? Too bad, that guy in the back is wearing a 5 piece set.
Dodge has plenty of counters in the game right now, no need to equip a set for that.
Shields can't be crit, CPs are front loaded. Don't put 100 points into Precise Strikes, but split them between Shattering Blows and Precise. All of a sudden EVERYTHING you do counters shields.
There is no anti-dodge CP. That's the reasoning behind non-dodgable skills. It's up to you to decide if that's a sufficient reasoning.
Point is, you split between Precise and Shattering, as specializing in one will leave you vulnerable to the other defense type. And that is your counter. Both won't work on a successful dodge, and all non-dodgable moves are intentionally weak or ultimates. With the special exception of birds for balancing purposes.
Let's talk about all the weak undodgable abilities like curse that hit me meduim build 8k damage while having Blood spawn up and major resolve and ward.Most undodgable abilities are magic and used in your build For example sweeps,curse,POTL.Only stam ability that you would use that undodgeable is Jabs and hurricane.There no reason for wardens birds to be undodgable other than making the class you have to pay for even stronger.
Only hard counter for shield stacking is shield breaker and knightslayer.I will say a Fury Shield breaker Blood spawn S&B Stamdk dueling build wouldn't be bad setup and would really hurt a low health stamdk trying to pop igneous.Probably the build @Derra .
Ironclad is the equivalent to Master at Arms.
Curse takes four seconds, PotL... errr... also takes a defined amount of seconds. Those aren't spammables for that exact reason.0 -
Biro123✭✭✭✭✭
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I get hit for 8k curse all the time on my stamblade with BS up.Except curse doesn't hit for 8k in those circumstances...
I crit someone for a 1k curse yesterday - and I don't exactly run a low-damage build.
I want to know what they guy was running to only be hit by a 1k curse.He would have to have major protection,main even with your penetration have max resistance.This is intresting.
Me too! Funny enough, I think it was on @Ragnaroek93 who posts here fairly often. I think it was a couple of days ago in a 3-way nr Alessia bridge.
I do often get very low hits with curse - and just as often some quite high hits too - but it's VERY rare I see one that low. I'm thinking it MUST have involved major protection (and maim on me) - and possibly minor protection too (if he's running shadowy cloak).. I don't know what his health was at the time either - it wasn't a 1v1.. could have possibly also involved vamp and low health? dunno - just guessing.
Can't remember what build I was running - but Its VERY rare I'm at less than 50k mag.. usually I vary spell-damage/sustain when switching around (one goes up, other down) - but I always (bar one, experimental build which I wasn't using at the time) run between 49 and 53k+ magica.
To get 8k on you with those buffs up, though.. it must have been empowered, and I'd guess you may have had your resists debuffed too.
Minalan owes me a beer.
PC EU Megaserver
Minie Mo - Stam/Magblade - DC
Woody Ron - Stamplar - DC
Aidee - Magsorc - DC
Notadorf - Stamsorc - DC
Khattman Doo - Stamblade - Relegated to Crafter, cos AD.0 -
Ragnaroek93✭✭✭✭✭
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I get hit for 8k curse all the time on my stamblade with BS up.Except curse doesn't hit for 8k in those circumstances...
I crit someone for a 1k curse yesterday - and I don't exactly run a low-damage build.
I want to know what they guy was running to only be hit by a 1k curse.He would have to have major protection,main even with your penetration have max resistance.This is intresting.
Me too! Funny enough, I think it was on @Ragnaroek93 who posts here fairly often. I think it was a couple of days ago in a 3-way nr Alessia bridge.
I do often get very low hits with curse - and just as often some quite high hits too - but it's VERY rare I see one that low. I'm thinking it MUST have involved major protection (and maim on me) - and possibly minor protection too (if he's running shadowy cloak).. I don't know what his health was at the time either - it wasn't a 1v1.. could have possibly also involved vamp and low health? dunno - just guessing.
Can't remember what build I was running - but Its VERY rare I'm at less than 50k mag.. usually I vary spell-damage/sustain when switching around (one goes up, other down) - but I always (bar one, experimental build which I wasn't using at the time) run between 49 and 53k+ magica.
To get 8k on you with those buffs up, though.. it must have been empowered, and I'd guess you may have had your resists debuffed too.
That's not possible against my build to be honest, if you did really hit me for only 1k than that must be a bug (I'm medium armor, no vampire and only 17k resists) ^^I used to think that PvP was a tragedy, but now I realize, it's a comedy.0
