Mundus, trait and CP optimisation for PVE damage dealers

Bam_Bam

LOL. Could someone please explain the results to me using NON-MATHEMATICAL, laymans terms?

MLGProPlayer

Baranthus wrote: »

LOL. Could someone please explain the results to me using NON-MATHEMATICAL, laymans terms?

At the very start of the post, he has a section called "summary"...

Croblasta

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Sanctuary wrote: »

LilySix wrote: »

Hi !

Just to make sure I understand things the right way.

For raid groups DDs, they now have to use infused trait and not precise ?

It's still unclear. Gilliam's ingame testings and Asayre's calculations seem to give different results. Knowing ZOS, i'll tend to follow the former.

C'est encore sujet à débat. Les tests sur mannequin de Gilliam et les calculs d'Asayre semblent donner des résultats différents. De plus les résultats d'Asayre sont obtenus avec la pierre de l'amant tandis que Gilliam a testé 4 ou 5 pierres. Enfin avec ce dont est capable ZOS, je préfère me fier aux tests réels. Donc pour l'instant je pense m'orienter vers PRÉCIS + OMBRE.

Thats because the uptime for infused determines the effectiveness. In Asayre's calculations the uptime is optimal (or close to optimal) which I believe wasnt the case in Gilliams test.

Most players are probably better off with precise for groups and sharpened/charged for solo.

I'm still confused about how this affects vMA/vDSA staves. Infused would not affect the uptime, correct? Just the enchantment bonus?

So does the same weapon trait order apply?

dpencil1

@Croblasta
You're right. The value of Infused on vMA/DSA staves is not very high because there is no proc cool down to diminish. It's not terrible, better than no trait or Powered, but certainly not BiS.

Pastas

https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/profile/Asayre

Thank you so much for your posts

MLGProPlayer

Has anyone tested Mother's Sorrow?

For example:

5pc Mother's Sorrow + 5pc MD vs. 5pc Julianos + 5pc MD

I'm thinking Julianos should still outperform it, but if anyone has tested, please share.

Draqone

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

I'm thinking Julianos should still outperform it, but if anyone has tested, please share.

I haven't tested but i did the math for a sorc build.

4x Infal + 5x Necro/MS + 2x Ilambris

MS:
-5% DPS on pet abilities, +0.4% on regular abilities, +10% on LA and HA

Necro is with Thief, MS with Shadow
No horn

C4Bliss

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Has anyone tested Mother's Sorrow?

For example:

5pc Mother's Sorrow + 5pc MD vs. 5pc Julianos + 5pc MD

I'm thinking Julianos should still outperform it, but if anyone has tested, please share.

I get slightly better results with mother sorrow but difference is really small... but if they don't fix torugs that will be bis...

Septimus_Magna

C4Bliss wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Has anyone tested Mother's Sorrow?

For example:

5pc Mother's Sorrow + 5pc MD vs. 5pc Julianos + 5pc MD

I'm thinking Julianos should still outperform it, but if anyone has tested, please share.

I get slightly better results with mother sorrow but difference is really small... but if they don't fix torugs that will be bis...

Gina said Torugs will be fixed so enchants have an 1.4s CD with infused weapons.

Its still going to be really good

C4Bliss

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

C4Bliss wrote: »

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Has anyone tested Mother's Sorrow?

For example:

5pc Mother's Sorrow + 5pc MD vs. 5pc Julianos + 5pc MD

I'm thinking Julianos should still outperform it, but if anyone has tested, please share.

I get slightly better results with mother sorrow but difference is really small... but if they don't fix torugs that will be bis...

Gina said Torugs will be fixed so enchants have an 1.4s CD with infused weapons.

Its still going to be really good

Yeah I agree even with 1.4 it will be (too) strong

Apherius

thank for this ,i think will test this on my sorc :

5 julianos - 4 Moondancer - 2 llambris full divines and maybe 5 julianos - 5 moondacer - 1 llambris

Barre 1 : Moondancer lightning staff in Infused or precise( spell damage enchant , still not sure about the enchant )
inner light - bound aegis - daedric prey - clench - volatile familiar & Shooting stars.

Barre 2 : Maesltrom lightning staff in precise
Bound aegis - liquid lightning - wall - Volatile familier - hardened ward & Destro ultimate.

Shadow mundus stone.

Draqone

Apherius wrote: »

thank for this ,i think will test this on my sorc :

5 julianos - 4 Moondancer - 2 llambris full divines and maybe 5 julianos - 5 moondacer - 1 llambris

Barre 1 : Moondancer lightning staff in Infused or precise( spell damage enchant , still not sure about the enchant )
inner light - bound aegis - daedric prey - clench - volatile familiar & Shooting stars.

Barre 2 : Maesltrom lightning staff in precise
Bound aegis - liquid lightning - wall - Volatile familier - hardened ward & Destro ultimate.

Shadow mundus stone.

That's not a great idea. Your pets don't scale with Spell Damage so your highest DPS skill is not affected by the Julianos 5 piece.

KingJ

I play Xbox and cant really test would I be better off going 2 infused for a DW magplar or 1 infused 1 something else?

Betsararie

Any consensus on BiS for mag sorc?

Before coming to this thread, I was thinking of running with precise/shadow. Is this going to be the BiS setup?

How does precise compare to infused on a mag sorc for pve?

For pvp, everything I have read so far indicates sharpened may still be the way to go? Is this accurate?

Personally, the sharpened nerf really irks me. We spent so much time farming sharpened just for it to be made useless. A slight nerf would've been appropriate, but 50% is far too much.

Septimus_Magna

Blanco wrote: »

Any consensus on BiS for mag sorc?

Before coming to this thread, I was thinking of running with precise/shadow. Is this going to be the BiS setup?

How does precise compare to infused on a mag sorc for pve?

For pvp, everything I have read so far indicates sharpened may still be the way to go? Is this accurate?

Personally, the sharpened nerf really irks me. We spent so much time farming sharpened just for it to be made useless. A slight nerf would've been appropriate, but 50% is far too much.

Sharpened will still be one of the best traits in pvp, especially vs heavy and medium targets.

In pve sharpened will be good for solo content. Its mainly group content where other traits can perform better but it depends on the buffs/debuffs the group is running.

Betsararie

Septimus_Magna wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Any consensus on BiS for mag sorc?

Before coming to this thread, I was thinking of running with precise/shadow. Is this going to be the BiS setup?

How does precise compare to infused on a mag sorc for pve?

For pvp, everything I have read so far indicates sharpened may still be the way to go? Is this accurate?

Personally, the sharpened nerf really irks me. We spent so much time farming sharpened just for it to be made useless. A slight nerf would've been appropriate, but 50% is far too much.

Sharpened will still be one of the best traits in pvp, especially vs heavy and medium targets.

In pve sharpened will be good for solo content. Its mainly group content where other traits can perform better but it depends on the buffs/debuffs the group is running.

Very insightful. Thank you so much!

Dymence

Blanco wrote: »

Any consensus on BiS for mag sorc?

Before coming to this thread, I was thinking of running with precise/shadow. Is this going to be the BiS setup?

How does precise compare to infused on a mag sorc for pve?

For pvp, everything I have read so far indicates sharpened may still be the way to go? Is this accurate?

Personally, the sharpened nerf really irks me. We spent so much time farming sharpened just for it to be made useless. A slight nerf would've been appropriate, but 50% is far too much.

Useless is an overstatement

Betsararie

Dymence wrote: »

Blanco wrote: »

Any consensus on BiS for mag sorc?

Before coming to this thread, I was thinking of running with precise/shadow. Is this going to be the BiS setup?

How does precise compare to infused on a mag sorc for pve?

For pvp, everything I have read so far indicates sharpened may still be the way to go? Is this accurate?

Personally, the sharpened nerf really irks me. We spent so much time farming sharpened just for it to be made useless. A slight nerf would've been appropriate, but 50% is far too much.

Useless is an overstatement

It is an overstatement, yet there are specific scenarios where it is useless (not BiS), and some scenarios where it is more useful.

I am still not happy with the change, as all that time farming sharpened has proved to be (somewhat) a waste of time.

Asardes

Sharp will not be useless unless the target has significant debuffs applied. Some of those can't, by design, have 100% uptime. Both magicka and stamina have 7.5K penetration with 2x1H or a 2H sharp weapon, concentration passive and TFS respectively. The resistance of mobs in instanced group content is 18.2K. That means there's still about 10.7K resistance to be overcome by various group debuffs - major fracture/breach 5.2K (only reliable 100% uptime), minor fracture/breach 1.3K, crusher on infused weapon 2.5K, Alkosh 3K - and CP in penetration. Players in PvP have a minimum of about 9K resistance, if they wear mostly LA and you won't overpenetrate for sure since there are usually no debuffs available. Also mobs in other content have variable resistance between 9.1-18.2K, again no overpenetration without debuffs. Precise outperforms sharp in group content if your critical multiplier is high from warhorn and trap/TR proc. So sharp remains one of the best traits despite the reduction.

MLGProPlayer

Asardes wrote: »

Sharp will not be useless unless the target has significant debuffs applied. Some of those can't, by design, have 100% uptime. Both magicka and stamina have 7.5K penetration with 2x1H or a 2H sharp weapon, concentration passive and TFS respectively. The resistance of mobs in instanced group content is 18.2K. That means there's still about 10.7K resistance to be overcome by various group debuffs - major fracture/breach 5.2K (only reliable 100% uptime), minor fracture/breach 1.3K, crusher on infused weapon 2.5K, Alkosh 3K - and CP in penetration. Players in PvP have a minimum of about 9K resistance, if they wear mostly LA and you won't overpenetrate for sure since there are usually no debuffs available. Also mobs in other content have variable resistance between 9.1-18.2K, again no overpenetration without debuffs. Precise outperforms sharp in group content if your critical multiplier is high from warhorn and trap/TR proc. So sharp remains one of the best traits despite the reduction.

Of course, sharpened will become less and less useful with each update as you can just replace its production with CP. We have tons of spare CP already, and that number will just continue to grow.

Asardes

MLGProPlayer wrote: »

Asardes wrote: »

Sharp will not be useless unless the target has significant debuffs applied. Some of those can't, by design, have 100% uptime. Both magicka and stamina have 7.5K penetration with 2x1H or a 2H sharp weapon, concentration passive and TFS respectively. The resistance of mobs in instanced group content is 18.2K. That means there's still about 10.7K resistance to be overcome by various group debuffs - major fracture/breach 5.2K (only reliable 100% uptime), minor fracture/breach 1.3K, crusher on infused weapon 2.5K, Alkosh 3K - and CP in penetration. Players in PvP have a minimum of about 9K resistance, if they wear mostly LA and you won't overpenetrate for sure since there are usually no debuffs available. Also mobs in other content have variable resistance between 9.1-18.2K, again no overpenetration without debuffs. Precise outperforms sharp in group content if your critical multiplier is high from warhorn and trap/TR proc. So sharp remains one of the best traits despite the reduction.

Of course, sharpened will become less and less useful with each update as you can just replace its production with CP. We have tons of spare CP already, and that number will just continue to grow.

Same can be said about reinforced, nirnhoned, imenetrable, recovery glyphs etc. It's somewhat of a design problem. Traits and CP bonuses should not have been identical, but complementary to each other.

Apherius

Draqone wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

thank for this ,i think will test this on my sorc :

5 julianos - 4 Moondancer - 2 llambris full divines and maybe 5 julianos - 5 moondacer - 1 llambris

Barre 1 : Moondancer lightning staff in Infused or precise( spell damage enchant , still not sure about the enchant )
inner light - bound aegis - daedric prey - clench - volatile familiar & Shooting stars.

Barre 2 : Maesltrom lightning staff in precise
Bound aegis - liquid lightning - wall - Volatile familier - hardened ward & Destro ultimate.

Shadow mundus stone.

That's not a great idea. Your pets don't scale with Spell Damage so your highest DPS skill is not affected by the Julianos 5 piece.

so, even if the 5pc of necropotence is nerfed to 3150 ( = 6117 magicka with all pc ) it will stay the best gear in slot for pet sorc ?

Asardes

Apherius wrote: »

Draqone wrote: »

Apherius wrote: »

thank for this ,i think will test this on my sorc :

5 julianos - 4 Moondancer - 2 llambris full divines and maybe 5 julianos - 5 moondacer - 1 llambris

Barre 1 : Moondancer lightning staff in Infused or precise( spell damage enchant , still not sure about the enchant )
inner light - bound aegis - daedric prey - clench - volatile familiar & Shooting stars.

Barre 2 : Maesltrom lightning staff in precise
Bound aegis - liquid lightning - wall - Volatile familier - hardened ward & Destro ultimate.

Shadow mundus stone.

That's not a great idea. Your pets don't scale with Spell Damage so your highest DPS skill is not affected by the Julianos 5 piece.

so, even if the 5pc of necropotence is nerfed to 3150 ( = 6117 magicka with all pc ) it will stay the best gear in slot for pet sorc ?

The actual nerf is about ~460 magicka because 1-4p pieces get a 13.3% buff. This results in a 0.5-0.6% DPS decrease - within the difference between two consecutive parses, so most likely not even observable in practice and not considering the increased damage from 10 the extra blue CP you get to spend. See the detailed calculation here.

I'm not sure how it compares to Julianos, but they will probably very close, not because of the spell damage bonus, but primarily due to the spell critical ones which get a significant 55% buff. Julianos has 2p and 4p bonuses, Necropotence has none. And spell critical bonuses are stronger in group content since the critical multiplier is increased by major/minor force bonuses. So probably solo they are about the same in terms of damage, but in group setting Julianos may actually edge ahead in terms of damage, even on pet builds. Not sure about PvP, but people usually don't run pets there due to various AI complication and low survivability.

FrancisCrawford

Asayre wrote: »

in solo situations the Lover is the preferred mundus as lack of penetration is the main problem in solo situations

For a moment, that phrasing made me feel like a teenager again.

Anyhow, thank you as always for your awesome work! I'd like raise the subject of enchantments. Questions include:

• One bar should always have Rage/Weapon Damage, correct?
• In what situations, if any, would elemental damage enchants make sense?
• In what situations, if any, would the Charged trait make sense?
• In what situations, if any -- solo boss fights? -- would Crushing enchants make sense?
• Summing up, what are generally the best enchantment pairs to use?

KingJ

@Asayre for a DW setup what would you say is the best setup 1 infused 1 sharpened 1 infused 1 nirn or double infused?

Derra

So shadow nerfed from 12% to 9%.
Setcritbonus buff is lower. Meh.

Croblasta

Precise was left unchanged this patch.

Could you list Maelstrom BiS trait order? Are you able to simulate this?

Feanor

Some stealth nerfs. Wow.

Asardes

Precise unchanged in the end, and more importantly shadow reduced from 12% to 9%. Also set critical bonuses increased only by 21% instead of 55% (that was clearly too much), and TFS reduced by 700. Now probably either lover or warrior stones would be optimal for certain builds, instead of shadow. Those do receive a buff.

MLGProPlayer

Am I correct in assuming that Apprentice is meta now for group content?