Mundus, trait and CP optimisation for PVE damage dealers

Asayre

Dymence wrote: »

How exactly do Maelstrom staves come into play here with regards to weapon traits?

Go for second in the list so Precise for group Precise/Sharpened for solo.

paul_j wrote: »

Sorry but to clarify how far behind is tbs against all the other mag dps armor setups?

About 3.5% behind Julianos

dpencil1

To continue the thought from my post above, using a 5th set piece infused staff on the back bar with a shock enchant grants me about 2600 dps from the enchant itself plus increasing Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance uptime to 80-90% over 50-60% without the enchant.

Comparing this to the Sharpened vMA lightning staff, with CP adjusted accordingly, the extra dps to light and heavy attacks is about 2600 dps more than the non-vMA parse. Overall dps is a little lower due to fewer debuff procs, though the extra spell damage from the staff helps offset the difference somewhat. Only about 1000 total dps less (34500 vs 35500).

Of course, if you were super lucky and ended up with a 80-90% uptime on the debuffs with the vMA staff, the overall dps would be higher than the Infused set staff. You're more likely to get lower proc rates though, so it's up to you if you want to gamble or have more consistent results.

In a raid setting where there are more damage sources working to proc concussed, vMA should come out on top, but in solo play not so much, at least on certain builds.

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

To continue the thought from my post above, using a 5th set piece infused staff on the back bar with a shock enchant grants me about 2600 dps from the enchant itself plus increasing Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance uptime to 80-90% over 50-60% without the enchant.

Comparing this to the Sharpened vMA lightning staff, with CP adjusted accordingly, the extra dps to light and heavy attacks is about 2600 dps more than the non-vMA parse. Overall dps is a little lower due to fewer debuff procs, though the extra spell damage from the staff helps offset the difference somewhat. Only about 1000 total dps less (34500 vs 35500).

Of course, if you were super lucky and ended up with a 80-90% uptime on the debuffs with the vMA staff, the overall dps would be higher than the Infused set staff. You're more likely to get lower proc rates though, so it's up to you if you want to gamble or have more consistent results.

In a raid setting where there are more damage sources working to proc concussed, vMA should come out on top, but in solo play not so much, at least on certain builds.

So basically Julianos becomes equivalent to maelstrom staff in this set up, with minor deviations (sometimes better, sometimes worst)? That's quite a surprise

Dymence

Asayre wrote: »

Dymence wrote: »

How exactly do Maelstrom staves come into play here with regards to weapon traits?

Go for second in the list so Precise for group Precise/Sharpened for solo.

Thanks for the info.

dpencil1

@Morgul667
Yeah, I've got a consistent rotation I've been practicing most of today that utilizes the Infused Wep Dmg enchant in my Pet mSorc. I've managed to get up to 78% uptime in my rotation. And been able to get between 35200-36000 dps consistently with 5 Necro + 5 Julianos + 1 magicka monster piece. I did get 38k with a similar setup once a couple days ago, but it was a fluke with much higher crit and proc uptime than it should have been, just lucky rng that time.

Honestly, if I could test Spinners and Master Architect (4-piece) with 2 infused staves, I would, but they don't come in the template bags, and I don't own any already. I do kinda favor Julianos though since it is craftable and grants crit, which is otherwise missing entirely from the Necro setup.

Joy_Division

Thank You @Asayre .

You are a boon and a wealth of information & analysis to the community.

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Yeah, I've got a consistent rotation I've been practicing most of today that utilizes the Infused Wep Dmg enchant in my Pet mSorc. I've managed to get up to 78% uptime in my rotation. And been able to get between 35200-36000 dps consistently with 5 Necro + 5 Julianos + 1 magicka monster piece. I did get 38k with a similar setup once a couple days ago, but it was a fluke with much higher crit and proc uptime than it should have been, just lucky rng that time.

Honestly, if I could test Spinners and Master Architect (4-piece) with 2 infused staves, I would, but they don't come in the template bags, and I don't own any already. I do kinda favor Julianos though since it is craftable and grants crit, which is otherwise missing entirely from the Necro setup.

Thanks. Sorry to ask but did you try the petless build and how it is working out ? Im quite interested in this

dpencil1

@Morgul667
Not yet. Do you have a particular skill load out in mind?

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Not yet. Do you have a particular skill load out in mind?

Not sure as Im no expert. Thanks for asking.

I usually go with

Inner, Rage, Daedric mines/Pulse, Shield, Bound armor, Deso ulti
Wall of element, Liquid lighting, Curse, Power Surge, Bound armor, Overload

I use netch or Julianos with Ilambris and Aether Infaillible but that could need some serious rework with the patch. vma staff backbar.

If you happen to test similar build I would be interested

dpencil1

@Morgul667
I can try to run some tests with a similar kind of setup. What is Rage? Do you mean Mage's Wrath? Also, do you heavy attack in your rotation for sustain? Where do you usually fit that in if you do?

I will probably run:
1. Crystal Frags, Force Pulse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Ele Drain (shield outside of parse), Destro Ult
2. Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Haunting Curse, Bound Aedis, Endless Fury, Energy Overload

I shouldn't need Power Surge since I'll be using potions during the parse, though I can do some parses with Power Surge and no potions if you want.

PS4_ZeColmeia

Hail @Asayre!

Question I'm not understanding, in comparing infused to nirnhorned I assume you are comparing the power enchant to the nirnhorned base increase? But technically I could put that enchant on a nirnhorned staff as well. So while the infused would be higher whenever it's up, the nirnhorned would be higher in bursts, correct?

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
I can try to run some tests with a similar kind of setup. What is Rage? Do you mean Mage's Wrath? Also, do you heavy attack in your rotation for sustain? Where do you usually fit that in if you do?

I will probably run:
1. Crystal Frags, Force Pulse, Inner Light, Bound Aegis, Ele Drain (shield outside of parse), Destro Ult
2. Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Haunting Curse, Bound Aedis, Endless Fury, Energy Overload

I shouldn't need Power Surge since I'll be using potions during the parse, though I can do some parses with Power Surge and no potions if you want.

That's great test thanks

I meant Mage's wrath Yes.

In this set-up I do a lot of heavy attacks on main bar. 1 skill before and after switching then HA.
Curse is casted every 2 rotations. Your set-up is very good for testing too

dpencil1

@PS4_ZeColmeia
The enchant does 348 every 5 sec with 5 sec cooldown afterward.

348 ÷ 2 = 174 + 200 (nirn) = 374 maximum average bonus.

On infused, it is buffed 30% and no longer has a refractory period.

348 × 1.30 = 452 maximum bonus for 100% uptime.

Keeping the enchant up 100% is hard if you only have it on one weapon. A more likely scenario if you build your rotation around hitting it would be 70-80% uptime.

70% uptime = 316
80% uptime = 361
85% uptime = 384
90% uptime = 406

If you had less than perfect uptime on Nirn...
40% uptime = 339
45% uptime = 356

So your ability to proc the enchant immediately after it expires without also hurting your rotation is the biggest factor here. You will lose less with Nirn because of the 200 guaranteed spell damage, and will have a longer time before the next time you need to activate the enchant. Conversely, if you can really hone your rotation for maximum uptime on Infused, it will win anywhere above 80% uptime.

P.S. This means expert light attack weaving and awareness of the enchant duration.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

dpencil1 wrote: »

@PS4_ZeColmeia
The enchant does 348 every 5 sec with 5 sec cooldown afterward.

348 ÷ 2 = 174 + 200 (nirn) = 374 maximum average bonus.

On infused, it is buffed 30% and no longer has a refractory period.

348 × 1.30 = 452 maximum bonus for 100% uptime.

Keeping the enchant up 100% is hard if you only have it on one weapon. A more likely scenario if you build your rotation around hitting it would be 70-80% uptime.

70% uptime = 316
80% uptime = 361
85% uptime = 384
90% uptime = 406

If you had less than perfect uptime on Nirn...
40% uptime = 339
45% uptime = 356

So your ability to proc the enchant immediately after it expires without also hurting your rotation is the biggest factor here. You will lose less with Nirn because of the 200 guaranteed spell damage, and will have a longer time before the next time you need to activate the enchant. Conversely, if you can really hone your rotation for maximum uptime on Infused, it will win anywhere above 80% uptime.

P.S. This means expert light attack weaving and awareness of the enchant duration.

Well this is great maths, it doesn't answer his question, that being will you get higher burst with nirn plus the enchant, so all you need is 200+374= 574 and 574 > 452 so you will get more burst and less average damage with nirn and the enchant. Though that question seems more to PvP and less what this thread is about, pve.

f047ys3v3n

Thanks for the testing. Looks like the trait balance is much better overall than before. Perhaps Sharp should be a little better mostly as a nod to those who farmed it for so long. Overall though the balance looks much better in your PvE analysis than it did in JonnytheKing's PVP analysis.

Great work to both you Asayre and to ZOS as well.

Code2501

So Mage and Nirnhoned could use a slight buff to bring them in line with the pack?

dpencil1

@Code2501
Yeah, the Mage should be boosted to 2500 be equal in power to Apprentice.
238 x 10.5 = 2499

Nirnhoned is actually ok. Good in certain contexts, such as PvP burst, as noted above, and when you find trying to get your enchant uptime high enough too hard to be worth it.

GilGalad

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Code2501
Yeah, the Mage should be boosted to 2500 be equal in power to Apprentice.
238 x 10.5 = 2499

Nirnhoned is actually ok. Good in certain contexts, such as PvP burst, as noted above, and when you find trying to get your enchant uptime high enough too hard to be worth it.

I don't think that's a good idea. Having more max magicka gives stronger shields and lets you cast more spells. When they did the last Mundus rebalance they stated, that ressourcen pool stones will always have a bit less power, because they provide more utility.

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

Code2501 wrote: »

So Mage and Nirnhoned could use a slight buff to bring them in line with the pack?

Is a 2.5% difference enough to justify a buff? I really don't think so.

dpencil1

@Morgul667
Ok, tested it out using Grothdarr, 5 Juli, 4 Archtect. Wasn't great. 30k was my highest. I've maxed at 38k on my pet build so far.





These were with double Juli infused. Parses with Maelstrom were coming out around 28k on the non pet build with vMA. I tried Infused, Sharp, and Precise. About the same damage each time.

Morgul667

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Ok, tested it out using Grothdarr, 5 Juli, 4 Archtect. Wasn't great. 30k was my highest. I've maxed at 38k on my pet build so far.





These were with double Juli infused. Parses with Maelstrom were coming out around 28k on the non pet build with vMA. I tried Infused, Sharp, and Precise. About the same damage each time.

Thanks for the feedback

tourerttrwb17_ESO

How come DMG is lower then it is now on live server? What is causing it?

Lightspeedflashb14_ESO

tourerttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

How come DMG is lower then it is now on live server? What is causing it?

the nerf to sharpend and the nerf to the thief, that would lead to this happening.

DeHei

dpencil1 wrote: »

To continue the thought from my post above, using a 5th set piece infused staff on the back bar with a shock enchant grants me about 2600 dps from the enchant itself plus increasing Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance uptime to 80-90% over 50-60% without the enchant.

Comparing this to the Sharpened vMA lightning staff, with CP adjusted accordingly, the extra dps to light and heavy attacks is about 2600 dps more than the non-vMA parse. Overall dps is a little lower due to fewer debuff procs, though the extra spell damage from the staff helps offset the difference somewhat. Only about 1000 total dps less (34500 vs 35500).

Of course, if you were super lucky and ended up with a 80-90% uptime on the debuffs with the vMA staff, the overall dps would be higher than the Infused set staff. You're more likely to get lower proc rates though, so it's up to you if you want to gamble or have more consistent results.

In a raid setting where there are more damage sources working to proc concussed, vMA should come out on top, but in solo play not so much, at least on certain builds.

vMSA Staffs should best with nirnhoned i think. Infused isnt a option because the procc is allready active 100% when the elemental wall is used. But this only when you reach 18k penetration in PvE

Drugio

@dpencil1 nice parse man, could you please tell me what gear, Cp allocation and mundus u were using?

Started testing hardly yesterday, I got 36k while using 5 spinner 5 necro thief and precise traits.. Was best paese I got but I didn't test Julio yet..

I d like also to ask for other relevant parses to all the community, this thread could help us all getting around 42k again... Hopefully..

laksikus

what about splitting weapon bars with different traits.
Last time i tested woe, it scaled with the penetration from cast bar, and crit multiplier active front bar, which let me think it also takes crit chance from active bar.

Wouldnt be precise front, sharp back bar good?

Masel

Morgul667 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Ok, tested it out using Grothdarr, 5 Juli, 4 Archtect. Wasn't great. 30k was my highest. I've maxed at 38k on my pet build so far.





These were with double Juli infused. Parses with Maelstrom were coming out around 28k on the non pet build with vMA. I tried Infused, Sharp, and Precise. About the same damage each time.

Thanks for the feedback

I do get consistent 36k by myself with elemental susceptibility on a centurion. With a charged IA lightning front bar staff and a nirnhoned vMA staff back bar.. Having one or two sorcs use that will be more valuable now as concussion uptime was nerfed by 33%.

The second parse posted by @dpencil1 has a drain/regen difference of 450~, so it is not at all sustainable and would run out of mag soon after the dummy is dead. Keep that in mind, you're going to have to use more heavy attacks to sustain that. Good parse ofc, but just wanted to remind people that small dummies hardly say anything about the consistent trial dps you'd get.

In a raid you'd get orbs and wormcult, adding about a 250 regen if you used orbs on cooldown, so still 200 of difference there.

Izaki

tourerttrwb17_ESO wrote: »

How come DMG is lower then it is now on live server? What is causing it?

My average DPS went up by 2k and my peak DPS on the PTS was just as high as on the Live server (48k self buffed on stamblade). There's a massive DPS increase this patch.

Izaki

Masel92 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Ok, tested it out using Grothdarr, 5 Juli, 4 Archtect. Wasn't great. 30k was my highest. I've maxed at 38k on my pet build so far.





These were with double Juli infused. Parses with Maelstrom were coming out around 28k on the non pet build with vMA. I tried Infused, Sharp, and Precise. About the same damage each time.

Thanks for the feedback

I do get consistent 36k by myself with elemental susceptibility on a centurion. With a charged IA lightning front bar staff and a nirnhoned vMA staff back bar.. Having one or two sorcs use that will be more valuable now as concussion uptime was nerfed by 33%.

The second parse posted by @dpencil1 has a drain/regen difference of 450~, so it is not at all sustainable and would run out of mag soon after the dummy is dead. Keep that in mind, you're going to have to use more heavy attacks to sustain that. Good parse ofc, but just wanted to remind people that small dummies hardly say anything about the consistent trial dps you'd get.

In a raid you'd get orbs and wormcult, adding about a 250 regen if you used orbs on cooldown, so still 200 of difference there.

This isn't about testing trial DPS. If you want to test your trial DPS a dummy is worthless. This is about comparing setups. And a repeated tests on the 3mil dummy are just fine for testing.

Why would you need to have full resources at the end of a fight?

Masel

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

Masel92 wrote: »

Morgul667 wrote: »

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Morgul667
Ok, tested it out using Grothdarr, 5 Juli, 4 Archtect. Wasn't great. 30k was my highest. I've maxed at 38k on my pet build so far.





These were with double Juli infused. Parses with Maelstrom were coming out around 28k on the non pet build with vMA. I tried Infused, Sharp, and Precise. About the same damage each time.

Thanks for the feedback

I do get consistent 36k by myself with elemental susceptibility on a centurion. With a charged IA lightning front bar staff and a nirnhoned vMA staff back bar.. Having one or two sorcs use that will be more valuable now as concussion uptime was nerfed by 33%.

The second parse posted by @dpencil1 has a drain/regen difference of 450~, so it is not at all sustainable and would run out of mag soon after the dummy is dead. Keep that in mind, you're going to have to use more heavy attacks to sustain that. Good parse ofc, but just wanted to remind people that small dummies hardly say anything about the consistent trial dps you'd get.

In a raid you'd get orbs and wormcult, adding about a 250 regen if you used orbs on cooldown, so still 200 of difference there.

This isn't about testing trial DPS. If you want to test your trial DPS a dummy is worthless. This is about comparing setups. And a repeated tests on the 3mil dummy are just fine for testing.

Why would you need to have full resources at the end of a fight?

The reason why I keep emphasising this is that your dps is determined by a lot of variables, of which sustain has become a very important one with morrowind.

So leaving that variable out of the testing is influencing your results to a great deal obviously. I agree that you could do multiple tests on a small dummy to get a larger sample, but you're still going to leave out a key variable in your testing and the distribution of critical hits for example is still going to be different from what you will get on one bigger test as your rotation will change once you have to focus on resource management.