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Mundus, trait and CP optimisation for PVE damage dealers

Asayre
Asayre
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Substantial changes to mundus and trait bonuses have warranted a new approach in optimisation. My current approach involves brute force calculation of DPS metrics of all possible mundus and weapon trait combination followed by CP optimisation via gradient descent then search of nearest jump point neighbours. The CP optimisation method is unchanged since Morrowind..

Summary
  • Differences between best and worst mundus and weapon trait combination is around 6%
  • Mundus order
    • Solo: Lover > Apprentice > Shadow > Thief > Mage ; range ~2.4%
    • Group: Shadow > Apprentice > Thief> Mage > Lover ; range ~3.4%
  • Weapon trait order
    • Solo: Sharpened > Infused > Precise > Nirnhoned ; range ~1.4%
    • Group: Infused > Precise > Nirnhoned > Sharpened ; range ~2.5%
  • 7 divines is generally preferred for the best weapon trait/mundus combination. However Infused/Divines (on large and small pieces respectively, is on average better). The average difference is minimal <1%
  • Link to brute force optimiser: http://asayre.mygamesonline.org/HoTRoptimisation/CPOptimisation.html# (some instructions listed below)

To reach these conclusions, I simulated a Breton Sorcerer with 2 Ilambris, 4 Infallible Aether (including 1 weapon) and varied the 5 piece set. The DPS metrics were calculated for all combinations of weapon traits and mundus, finally the data was stratified. Two buffs scenarios were considerd, the first being a minimal debuff situation where Major Breach and Major Sorcery are active and the second where the majority of buffs were applied, particularly Major Sorcery, Minor Sorcery, Major Breach, Minor Breach, Infused Crusher, Warhorn (33% uptime) and Minor Breach were present. For simplicity, the first scenario will be referred to as solo and the latter as group. It is assumed that Infused is being used with a Glyph of Weapon Damage and the uptime of the glyph is virtually 100%. For the 5 piece set, the following were considered as they were suitable for comparison with DPS metric
  • Julianos
  • Spinner
  • Destruction Mastery
  • Twice Born Star

The DPS metric is defined as
cfc8a6b3cf9389aae222e386458a5fe0.png
where
f9fcc6ffc3226dd238eeabd28cff06a6.png
In some of the images below, the right hand ordinate axis is scaled differently to better reflect % differences. For comparison of only mundus or weapon trait, the median value of all appropriate data was used.

Set comparison for solo
b47b2e82eebec2c684b931a6e15e8669.png
Set comparison for group
d032ea572fb52d8c5d5068cfa2a68dfa.png

We see that in a solo scenario, Spinner is preferred due to the lack of penetration. Note that using the best mundus/trait combination Spinner is only 0.4% better than Julianos. In both group and solo situations, Destruction Mastery and Twice-Born Star are underperforming by 1.9 and 3.5% compared to Julianos, respectively.

We can examine the average trait behaviour for all mundus combinations to determine which trait is generally preferred. Sharpened is on average the most preferred trait followed by Infused for solo situations. In groups, Infused and Precise, in that order, are ideal. Sharpened clearly underperforms in group situations where a lot of armour debuffs are being applied. Note that Nirnhoned is always strictly worse than Infused. It provides 200 spell damage whereas Infused provides (up to) 278 spell damage.

Trait comparison for solo
22609fcff88e6f17f0666b48622d0d9e.png
Trait comparison for group
316171a4dcdcef9f6589fb7fc1ee8ca9.png

In terms of mundus, in solo situations the Lover is the preferred mundus as lack of penetration is the main problem in solo situations. In both solo and group situations the Mage is the worst performing mundus.

Solo mundus comparison
828a4200fe0f8718a5225097edef0c04.png
Group mundus comparison
f06d983c4b53d20de6006007893a04e8.png

Overall, the trait and mundus work appears to be successful in reducing the gap between traits and mundus and should promote a bit more diversity.

Comments on site usage
  • Put your average stats pre-mundus/weapon trait
  • Number of divines can be used to check the difference between infused and divines. It is assumed that divines pieces are legendary
  • Clicking 'Brute force' will eventually generate a table of DPS metric for all relevant trait/mundus. It takes ~40s. This can be significantly reduced if 'Search Neighbours' in the Advanced tab is set to 1.
  • The DPS metric calculated is stamina or magicka based depending on which pool is higher.
  • The CP distribution after pressing 'Brute force' does not correspond to the ideal CP distribution for the best performing mundus/trait but instead corresponds to the last calculated combinatio
  • I'm too much of a html/javascript noob to figure out how to highlight the highest DPS metric row or show the ideal CP distribution when hovering over different rows

Edited by Asayre on July 15, 2017 11:03PM
Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Draqone
    Draqone
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    How did you compare for TBS? Do we just manually fill in the primary mundus stats?

    Do we fill in the stats pre modifiers or after modifiers?
    Edited by Draqone on July 15, 2017 5:27PM
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  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    One thing to consider regarding 100% Infused uptime is that it requires a rotation that puts you back on your front bar at the 5 second mark. This creates an opportunity to refine one's rotation to take full benefit of the enchant uptime and punishes players who do not weave light attacks and stay on top of the enchant refresh. For example, when I tested Infused using my Morrowind rotation, I was only getting 65% uptime over the 45% uptime I usually get with non-Infused weapons. This is because I was usually switching to my back bar just before the enchant ran out and was missing it the whole time I was applying my back bar dots. To really make this work, the front bar should actually be the place you spend as little time as possible, so you can reap the benefits of the enchant as well as your back bar weapon's trait, whether that be Precise or Sharpened. So find a way to stay on your back bar for the most part expect for every 5 seconds where you swap to use one or two skills, procing your enchant, and then swap to the back bar again.

    It's a cool challenge that rewards skillful play!
    Edited by dpencil1 on July 15, 2017 5:31PM
  • Izaki
    Izaki
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    Thanks for this!

    What am I supposed to put into the Stamina and Weapon Damage % multipliers? Do I put my base value in the Stamina and Weapon damage fields and then put the total of % multipliers in? Because that would mean that I'd have to take out points of the Undaunted passives and the Redguard passives which kinda seems weird to me ^^
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  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    If I could click insightful more than once I would certainly do it.

    Thanks @Asayre, again, for the awesome info!

    As you point out, not much difference now when choosing a mundus for magicka characters. Lover, Apprentice, Shadow, and Thief are all viable.

    Nice to see my Spinner's set with sharp lightning staff will still be BiS for vMA ... (will need to change current mundus when the patch drops)

    Edited by Taleof2Cities on July 15, 2017 6:05PM
  • Masel
    Masel
    Class Representative
    Thanks for this @Asayre,as a number cruncher those threads are always interesting to me. If I'm not mistaken, if you're using a heavy attack build, wouldn't it be better to run the Apprentice mundus stone+spinner+infused? As your staff ratio/ability ratio would be higher than usual you'd get more return from the 40.5 conversion as heavy attacks are responsible for more of your damage. This might also apply to the stamina dk/stamsorc heavy attack based builds out there.
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  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    Draqone wrote: »
    How did you compare for TBS? Do we just manually fill in the primary mundus stats?

    Do we fill in the stats pre modifiers or after modifiers?

    Yes, I manually filled in one mundus.

    Input your average stats pre-mundus and weapon trait.
    Thanks for this!
    What am I supposed to put into the Stamina and Weapon Damage % multipliers? Do I put my base value in the Stamina and Weapon damage fields and then put the total of % multipliers in? Because that would mean that I'd have to take out points of the Undaunted passives and the Redguard passives which kinda seems weird to me ^^

    You put your average stamina/weapon damage. The multipliers should be calculated manually. Typical max magicka multipliers are:
    • 10% Breton/Altmer racial passive
    • 5% Inner Light
    • 2% per Mage Guild slotted from Expert Controller
    • 6% Undaunted Mettle (2% per armour type)
    • 8% Bound Armour/Magicka Flood
    Typical spell/weapon damage multipliers are:
    • 20% Major Sorcery/Brutality
    • 5% Minor Sorcery/Brutality
    • 2% per Sorcerer skill slotted from Expert Mage
    I don't know your build or what you want to calculate but hope that gives you ideas on what to look out for.
    Masel92 wrote: »
    Thanks for this @Asayre,as a number cruncher those threads are always interesting to me. If I'm not mistaken, if you're using a heavy attack build, wouldn't it be better to run the Apprentice mundus stone+spinner+infused? As your staff ratio/ability ratio would be higher than usual you'd get more return from the 40.5 conversion as heavy attacks are responsible for more of your damage. This might also apply to the stamina dk/stamsorc heavy attack based builds out there.

    I am using a DPS metric which has a weighting term for abilities and staff attacks. By adjusting the Staff% and Lightning Staff HA% you can optimise for heavy attack builds. But generally speaking, you should be right in that apprentice and infused will be strongly favoured for heavy attack builds.


    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Teridaxus
    Teridaxus
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    So for someone like me who plays a bit of everything( solo/group pve/pvp), i can safely go nirnhoned without lacking too much behind. (im too cheap to have multiple item sets)
  • MLGProPlayer
    MLGProPlayer
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    Let's say we're using a set with no crit% passives (like Necropotence or Moondancer). Does Precise become more valuable in that case because our crit% is going to be extremely low, or is crit% in general overrated?

    Or will a set like Julianos be mandatory?
    Edited by MLGProPlayer on July 16, 2017 12:56AM
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @MLGProPlayer In my own testing on my pet sorc, it does seem like I either need Thief or Precise. Otherwise I'm sitting at 32% crit, which is abysmal.
  • JonnytheKing
    JonnytheKing
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    IM GUESSING THIS IS FOR PVE ONLY
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  • Taleof2Cities
    Taleof2Cities
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    Masel92 wrote: »
    If I could click insightful more than once I would certainly do it.

    Thanks @Asayre, again, for the awesome info!

    As you point out, not much difference now when choosing a mundus for magicka characters. Lover, Apprentice, Shadow, and Thief are all viable.

    Nice to see my Spinner's set with sharp lightning staff will still be BiS for vMA ... (will need to change current mundus when the patch drops)

    Be careful! A lot of enemies in vMA do not have more than 9.1k or 12k resistance. With LA passive and a sharpened spinner staff you will already be above that. Putting points in spell erosion should still be ideal with the overall frontloaded cps and maybe even better than using sharpened. You can also go for a infused staff, should be better.

    Thanks, @Masel92 ... I think I have an infused Spinner's staff laying around somewhere. Will have to do some testing on PTS with it.
  • nCats
    nCats
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    Nice to see an applied mathematician at work for leisure :).

    I wonder what the results would be like for solo stamina builds with maces for weapons. Although unorthodox, now they give more pen on 18k targets than the sharpened trait. I have tried doing some computations for pvp and there (2-handed) maces offer something new and interesting.
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    @Asayre
    The damage distribution would not be similar between Julianos and Necro if one uses Cfrag/ForcePulse and the other uses mostly dots and heavy attacks.

    My usual Necro distribution is:
    55% dot
    25% direct
    8% Lightning Heavy attack
    12% Light attacks and shock pulse

    Max magicka : 49000
    Spell damage: 2900 average using WepDmg glypg, non-infused
    Crit: 32% without Thief, Precise, or Major Prophesy

    Dunno if this would effect the results significantly or not.
  • Morgul667
    Morgul667
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    This is great ! thanks
  • Draqone
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    @Asayre @dpencil1

    Note this does not account for the fact that Sorc pets do not scale with Spell power.

    I also have a question, do we include the stats we get from CPs in the % multipliers? Because this gives us +20% but I am not sure if the game actually treats it as a % multiplier...
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    “All skills are equal, but some skills are more equal than others.”
  • Br1ckst0n
    Br1ckst0n
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    Came to the same mundus conclusion. Still unsure about sets, always feeling like i could miss something.

    Infused is pretty op, especially with the vma weapon bug. Also the wd buff stays on both bars.
    Nirn remains useless. I think they should just totally rework the trait again.
    Offtank of the year 2016
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    You are free to adjust the stats to your liking to get results that are more suited for your situation, @dpencil1.

    @Draqone, yes that is right I am using the DPS metric listed above. If you meant the multiplier from the CP increase then no. You put your average magicka and then calculate skill based multipliers. This is because the mage mundus stone does not benefit from CP.
    1d46adc87bbb1fe9a5d019fd29dc0ea8.png

    @nCats you could calculate it yourself just brute force every combination of dagger, sword and mace and see what happens.
    Edited by Asayre on July 16, 2017 8:09AM
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • Br1ckst0n
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    @Asayre do you think mothers sorrow is worth testing again? They will probably buff the 5 piece to match up which would bring the total crit from it to around 20%.
    Offtank of the year 2016
  • Asayre
    Asayre
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    @Br1ckst0n I'll wait for the changes since it doesn't seem very good at the moment.
    Reference for any calculation I make Introduction to PvE Damage Calculation
  • SaintSubwayy
    SaintSubwayy
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    this calculations are mainly made for a magica based setup am I right?

    I guess you didnt consider to inclue Kahjit 8% weapcrit, for a stam heavy attack build, with TBS (Lover and Shadow)?
    Edited by SaintSubwayy on July 16, 2017 11:50AM
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  • RoyJade
    RoyJade
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    this calculations are mainly made for a magica based setup am I right?

    I guess you didnt consider to inclue Kahjit 8% weapcrit, for a stam heavy attack build, with TBS (Lover and Shadow)?

    With a magsorc, 2 Ilambris + 4 aether + one of the fourth tested sets.
    For a stamina char, it will be different. Warrior would benefit more than apprentice with all the increased WD buff, but lover/sharp would be better with no concentration passive.
  • Dymence
    Dymence
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    How exactly do Maelstrom staves come into play here with regards to weapon traits?
  • dpencil1
    dpencil1
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    Today I've been doing a lot of parsing and actually getting better dps with 2 infused julianos staves (as part of the 5-piece) over Maelstrom back bar. Front bar with weapon damage and back bar with shock to get more procs of concussed, leading to more consistent Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance uptimes. I've gotten a couple parses with 90% uptime on a heavy attack build. Best dps I've been able to hit so far on my pet sorc is 38k, usually more around 36k. I've been trying really hard to find a way back to my 40k dps I can do on live, but so far no dice.

    If you're determined to run a Maelstrom back bar, Sharp, Precise, or Infused all parse similarly when mundus and cp are adjusted accordingly.
  • paul_j
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    Sorry but to clarify how far behind is tbs against all the other mag dps armor setups?
  • Subversus
    Subversus
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    Question is, however, what will be BiS for burst damage aka pvp next patch. My guess it's on sharpened/nirn+shadow on vMA weapons, with a return to infused or nirn/sharp + shadow again on non vMA. Shadow buffs make it a must imo for well rounded PvP builds.
  • Dymence
    Dymence
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    Subversus wrote: »
    Question is, however, what will be BiS for burst damage aka pvp next patch. My guess it's on sharpened/nirn+shadow on vMA weapons, with a return to infused or nirn/sharp + shadow again on non vMA. Shadow buffs make it a must imo for well rounded PvP builds.

    Shadow was untouched.
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