Mundus, trait and CP optimisation for PVE damage dealers

skinnycheeks

dpencil1 wrote: »

Today I've been doing a lot of parsing and actually getting better dps with 2 infused julianos staves (as part of the 5-piece) over Maelstrom back bar. Front bar with weapon damage and back bar with shock to get more procs of concussed, leading to more consistent Minor Vulnerability and Off-Balance uptimes. I've gotten a couple parses with 90% uptime on a heavy attack build. Best dps I've been able to hit so far on my pet sorc is 38k, usually more around 36k. I've been trying really hard to find a way back to my 40k dps I can do on live, but so far no dice.

If you're determined to run a Maelstrom back bar, Sharp, Precise, or Infused all parse similarly when mundus and cp are adjusted accordingly.

Hey DrPencil1. Would you mind sharing the bar setup you are using for your pet sorc build? I am topping out right at 32-33k on the PTS. I'm gonna try out the double infused and see how that works out.

dpencil1

Hey @skinnycheeks
My bars are usually as follows when I do a dummy parse:

1. Endless Fury, Shock Clench, Volatile Familiar, Twilight Matriach, Elemental Drain, Shooting Star

2. Liquid Lightning, Blockade of Storms, Volatile Familiar, Twilight Matriarch, Daedric Prey, Shooting Star

Rotation for double infused is as follows...

Opening sequence:
Potion, Ele Drain, Prey, Shooting Star, Command pets to attack (I have them set to passive to start), LA, Shock Clench

Repeating sequence:

1st Rotation:
LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms, LA, Volatile Familiar, LA, Prey
Bar Swap
HA, Shock Clench, LA
Bar Swap

2nd Rotation:
LA, Liquid Lightning, LA, Blockade of Storms
Bar Swap
LA, Volatile Familiar
Bar Swap
LA, Prey
Bar Swap
HA, Shock Clench, LA, Ele Drain
Bar Swap

Spam Endless Fury at 20%, maybe reapply Liquid Lightning and Blockade of Storms if necessary.

The reason for the extra bar swap to hit Familiar on the front bar instead of the back is to keep the Weapon Damage enchant up as much as possible. If you just run Rotation 1, adding Ele Drain every other time, it's cleaner but you only get 65% uptime on the enchant because you lose it soon after you swap to the back bar on every other rotation. With Rotation 2 added, I'm hitting about 80% uptime. Still working out the kinks, though, as my parses tend to be a little higher doing only Rotation 1, probably because I'm more used to it and a bit faster at it.

Gear is 5 Necro, 5 Julianos, 1 magicka monster piece. Lover mundus stone, blue food.

Blue CP is: 40 Elfborn, 43 Ele Expert, 42 Spell Erosion, 20 Master-at-Arms, 75 Thaumaturge
(these are optimized for this build according to Asayre's website)

Also, remember that on PTS right now we are missing our last racial passive and Minor Slayer is broken, so dps is actually lower with Trials sets currently, but should be better when they fix that bug. My plan when everything is working correctly is to try using 5 Necro, 4 Master Archetect, 2 Domihaus (you can see my review of Domihaus on the official item sets feedback thread).

skinnycheeks

Thanks @dpencil1

We have a very similar setup going. Rotation is pretty much the same as on your 1st rotation through. I have bound aegis instead of the 2nd pet though. Same gear also...using slimecraw as the 1 piece currently. I tried with the 2 infused staves and hit 34.6k so it is getting better.

I need to adjust my CP a bit. I appreciate the reply. Really helpful! I actually have an infused master architect lightening staff on live. I'm super glad I held onto it and didn't decon it haha.

MLGProPlayer

dpencil1 wrote: »

My plan when everything is working correctly is to try using 5 Necro, 4 Master Archetect, 2 Domihaus (you can see my review of Domihaus on the official item sets feedback thread).

I was thinking of going with something similar, but what are you going to do about crit%?

Without Julianos and Thief mundus, your crit% is going to be ~32%.

The only way I can see that setup working is if we go back to Thief mundus (and then, by extension, sharpened weapons or extra points in spell erosion).

skinnycheeks

@dpencil1 Up to 36.3k adding in the twilight. Thanks for the tip.

dpencil1

@MLGProPlayer You're right about that. It's tricky to guage with Minor Slayer being broken and not having access to all the necessary gear pieces. Like, I don't have 2 infused Necro or Architect staves to be able to test. In the end we may see Necro+Julianos still come out on top. More testing is needed.

Dymence

dpencil1 wrote: »

My plan when everything is working correctly is to try using 5 Necro, 4 Master Archetect, 2 Domihaus (you can see my review of Domihaus on the official item sets feedback thread).

Domihaus tries way too hard to be unique from other monster sets and as a result turns out to be quite useless. I really doubt you can actually get the proc to be of any good use in any non-controlled environment.

paul_j

@Asayre if dual wielding, I know infused for offhand is good but do you know what the dps difference would be if it was precise instead? Don't have infused weapons at the moment

dpencil1

@paul_j
Gilliamtherogue covered this in great detail in his stamina discussion stream on Youtube. Infused main hand and sharp offhand is preferred. After that, Precise/Sharp. The difference is pretty small.

paul_j

@dpencil1 I'll be sure to check it out thanks

NordSwordnBoard

Taleof2Cities wrote: »

If I could click insightful more than once I would certainly do it.

A forum star should be awarded just for this and all the other informative content that came before it.

Good work, well presented, and easy to understand. Thank You.

dpencil1

@Asayre
Do you think it would be possible to add a place on your CP optimization page where we can input the % uptime of the Wep Damage glyph? I feel like that needs to be a factor that is taken into account when determining if Infused will actually beat another weapon trait.

Izaki

dpencil1 wrote: »

@paul_j
Gilliamtherogue covered this in great detail in his stamina discussion stream on Youtube. Infused main hand and sharp offhand is preferred. After that, Precise/Sharp. The difference is pretty small.

Yeah Infused always main hand, always with the Poison enchant. Then your off-hand and you back bar traits depend on the content: Precise for group, Sharp for solo. From what I've found.

Asayre

@dpencil1

It's not a bad idea but I didn't want to add two fields; one for uptime without infused and one for uptime with infused so I made an "Additional WD/SD from Infused" field. Not as intuitive as uptime but space saving.

robvs

Thanks so much. One question. If you run a maelstrom main bar (magicka dk), which trait would be the best in optimized groups? I assume it will be either precise or infused. Because I have no idea really how much of a dps impact infused has on the maelstrom destro enchantment.

Asayre

@robvs, Infused should be used with a Glyph of Weapon Damage (that is not with a Maelstrom staff). Use precise in optimised group settings (as defined above)

dpencil1

@Asayre
UPDATE: CALCULATION ERROR, DISREGARD
Thanks! I worked with it a bit and found that the sweet spot where Infused beats Precise for the top spot (with the Lover stone), at least on my build, was at about 220 SD boost (which is basically 50% uptime). So just the 30% boost to the glyph's damage, not even taking into account higher uptimes than the max possible without Infused, makes it BiS in my case. Very interesting!

Asayre

@dpencil1
Just to clarify the field "Additional WD/SD from Infused" should be interpreted as

452*Uptime of Weapon Glyph with Infused - 348*Uptime of Weapon Glyph without Infused

So if you say had a 40% uptime without Infused you need an uptime of ~80% with an Infused weapon.

dpencil1

@Asayre
Ah ok. I was just plugging in the total expected SD from the glyph. So if I usually have a 45% rate without infused and only 75% rate with Infused, my "additional" SD is only 183, lower than the margin necessary to beat Lover/Precise, with Apprentice/Sharpened coming in 2nd, and Lover/Infused in 3rd.

So it looks like Infused has the "potential" to add up to 250-290 SD, but also can easily dip below Nirnhoned's 200 flat SD, at which point Precise and Sharp would be beating it

Asayre

@dpencil1 Yup, that's right!

dpencil1

@Asayre
Can you help me with the "Damage done" field?
Lets say I have 100% uptime on Major Sorcery (+20%), Minor Slayer (+5%), 80% uptime on Minor Vulnerability (+8%), and 80% uptime on the Exploiter passive (+10%).
How would you go about calculating the appropriate number for the "Damage done" field in this case?

DeHei

dpencil1 wrote: »

@Asayre
Ah ok. I was just plugging in the total expected SD from the glyph. So if I usually have a 45% rate without infused and only 75% rate with Infused, my "additional" SD is only 183, lower than the margin necessary to beat Lover/Precise, with Apprentice/Sharpened coming in 2nd, and Lover/Infused in 3rd.

So it looks like Infused has the "potential" to add up to 250-290 SD, but also can easily dip below Nirnhoned's 200 flat SD, at which point Precise and Sharp would be beating it

Just a question: Nirnhoned can have the spelldamageenchant too. Do that calculated allready or not?

Whats the best for 2x vMSA Destrostaffs? Double infused?? Or better Nirnhoned or Precise then?

dpencil1

@DeHei
So, the spell damage enchant gives you 174 extra spell damage if you have it up 100%. More likely you'll have it up between 40-45% (so we could say more like 150 SD is common). Add that to the flat 200 from Nirnhoned, and the total SD you need from Infused to equal Nirnhoned is 350. The Infused glyph bumps the max possibly spell damage up to 452 (102 higher than Nirnhoned), but it's VERY hard to keep it up 100%. If you're not actively trying to keep it up, you may only see it up around 65% compared to 45% without Infused, in which case Infused would be doing very little for you, less than any other trait. So you have to use a rotation that makes a point to reapply the glyph as soon as possible, in which case you'll get more like 80-90% uptime. The closer you get to 100% the more it edges out all other traits, but if you're not consistently hitting a very high uptime, you would be better off with another trait.

DeHei

dpencil1 wrote: »

@DeHei
So, the spell damage enchant gives you 174 extra spell damage if you have it up 100%. More likely you'll have it up between 40-45% (so we could say more like 150 SD is common). Add that to the flat 200 from Nirnhoned, and the total SD you need from Infused to equal Nirnhoned is 350. The Infused glyph bumps the max possibly spell damage up to 452 (102 higher than Nirnhoned), but it's VERY hard to keep it up 100%. If you're not actively trying to keep it up, you may only see it up around 65% compared to 45% without Infused, in which case Infused would be doing very little for you, less than any other trait. So you have to use a rotation that makes a point to reapply the glyph as soon as possible, in which case you'll get more like 80-90% uptime. The closer you get to 100% the more it edges out all other traits, but if you're not consistently hitting a very high uptime, you would be better off with another trait.

I really would be interested how traits for vMSA weapons work.. there are the traits a bit more special..

dpencil1

On the vMA Destro staff, I think that Precise and Sharp are practically tied, Nirn is a little below that, and Infused is below that (because there's no benefit to the 50% reduced cooldown). Charged is also a good option, not because the staff itself is strong, but because on a Lightning staff it can help with Concussed uptime for Wall of Storms, Minor Vulnerability, Exploiter.

Asayre

@dpencil1

Major Sorcery should go under "Spell Damage Multiplier %" that is 20%.

Your Damage Done will be

5 + 0.8*8 + 0.8*10 = 19.4

Septimus_Magna

@dpencil1
What Ive heard from Gilliam the Rogues testing is that sharpened is only an option for magicka builds that play solo and dont apply major breach.

Orginized groups will always put up major breach, stambuilds run NMG and support provides War Horns etc. This often makes precise/shadow the best choice.

dpencil1

@Septimus_Magna Yeah, I've been following Gilliam's streams also. I don't think it's fair to say Sharp is only good in solo application. Certainly in top-tier coordinated raid guilds it will be unnecessary, but a large part of the community doesn't do that. For 4-man dungeons and pug normal trials, you can't rely on your team mates as much to provide all those juicy buffs. So for most people, and the content they generally run, Sharp and Precise are going to be very close in terms of overall effectiveness.

MCBIZZLE300

I want to know if infused is worth it on legendary traits like the vma 2 hander with poison enchant on top.

Jeckll

mcb123 wrote: »

I want to know if infused is worth it on legendary traits like the vma 2 hander with poison enchant on top.

Why would you destroy a vMA 2h with a Poison Glyph?
The additional Weapon Damage is part of the default Weapon Enchant of vMA Weapons. Using another Glyph means you lose the Weapon Damage as well. Its still shown on the Character Screen but it doesnt apply.

You can use poisons, though.