Severe balancing issue regarding Torug's Pact changes/fixes and Oblivion Damage

Anne_Firehawk

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I am going to assume that the fix is either the fact that the Infused and Torugs 30% increase are not additive, and are instead multiplicative or that the 1s cooldown decrease is on the wrong side of the formula when done with Torug's Pacts cooldown decrease.

You have the right idea. This is the patch note:

Torug’s Pact: This item set now reduces the cooldown of your weapon enchantment by 30% instead of one second, and is multiplicative with the cooldown reduction of the Infused trait.

That is not gonna help if an oblivion damage enchant has a 1.4 second Cooldown

Liofa

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I am going to assume that the fix is either the fact that the Infused and Torugs 30% increase are not additive, and are instead multiplicative or that the 1s cooldown decrease is on the wrong side of the formula when done with Torug's Pacts cooldown decrease.

You have the right idea. This is the patch note:

Torug’s Pact: This item set now reduces the cooldown of your weapon enchantment by 30% instead of one second, and is multiplicative with the cooldown reduction of the Infused trait.

So , it is a 0.4 second cooldown nerf to damage enchants like Flame , Oblivion , Shock etc. but 0.5 second buff to other enchants like Crusher , Berserker . Am I correct ?

BohnT

This will be the next reign of terror which will flood cyrodiil. Farewell scrubs, noobs and xv1 heros your tools are stronger than before, no tank will ever block your sight, no skilled player will be in your way, no "troll" will disturb your brainless marsh from one keep to the next.

Welcome to Eso: Zerglings Unlimited

On a serious note, oblivion damage glyphs need to be nerfed drastically or changed into a heal, anything that counters all counterplay is bad design very bad design.

BohnT

The oblivion damage glyph is way too powerful in its current state and will be completely broken once the Patch hits the live servers.
Here are some ideas how to fix it:
1. Heals you instead of dealing damage
2. Goes through shields/block but is reduced by mitigation and resistance
3. Has a global cooldown of 5 seconds, you can't buff it or decrease it's damage so why should you be able to decrease the cooldown?
4. Battlespirit applies to it ---> 50% damage nerf
5. People gain immunity for 5 seconds against oblivion damage glyphs when they are hit with one

Choose any of these but please for the sake of pvp nerf it.

paulsimonps

BohnT wrote: »

The oblivion damage glyph is way too powerful in its current state and will be completely broken once the Patch hits the live servers.
Here are some ideas how to fix it:
1. Heals you instead of dealing damage
2. Goes through shields/block but is reduced by mitigation and resistance
3. Has a global cooldown of 5 seconds, you can't buff it or decrease it's damage so why should you be able to decrease the cooldown?
4. Battlespirit applies to it ---> 50% damage nerf
5. People gain immunity for 5 seconds against oblivion damage glyphs when they are hit with one

Choose any of these but please for the sake of pvp nerf it.

1. No one will use that.
2. Would make it useless.
3. It can be buffed by Infused and Torugs strength buff.
4. Maybe
5. Make shield breaker and knight slayer useless as well as the enchant.

BohnT

paulsimonps wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

The oblivion damage glyph is way too powerful in its current state and will be completely broken once the Patch hits the live servers.
Here are some ideas how to fix it:
1. Heals you instead of dealing damage
2. Goes through shields/block but is reduced by mitigation and resistance
3. Has a global cooldown of 5 seconds, you can't buff it or decrease it's damage so why should you be able to decrease the cooldown?
4. Battlespirit applies to it ---> 50% damage nerf
5. People gain immunity for 5 seconds against oblivion damage glyphs when they are hit with one

Choose any of these but please for the sake of pvp nerf it.

1. No one will use that.
2. Would make it useless.
3. It can be buffed by Infused and Torugs strength buff.
4. Maybe
5. Make shield breaker and knight slayer useless as well as the enchant.

Read Nr 5 again, the immunity only applies to the glyphs.
1. there are certain builds which i could think of where I'd use it for sure
2 wouldn't make it useless imo because it will still deal damage against shieldstackers/ perma block builds but not the insane numbers it deals now.
3. Yeah my bad only thought about cp/ or buffs like beserk etc

Azurya

to end all this endless discussions on skills which are to strong, ( which wrecked my StamNB) and procsets, passives and all other things which there are always so many opposite to it, I want to propose that ZOS removes ALL SKILLS, ALL SETS, All CP, ALL ATTRIBUTES, ALL RACIALS, they should remove all and everything, which someone could probably use to build his personal Character. All sets should be like: 2pcs grants you 2 lollies, 3 pcs grants you 3 donuts, 4 pcs grants you a lemonade and 5 pcs takes you to the pool.
we should battle no longer against each other in cyrodil or against mobs and monsters anywhere else, we should instead back cakes and make useless stuff, so that nobody feels that he/she cannot handle his character and feels abused by others who put some more time in L2P.
All get standard the broom and bucket set and we all have lots of fun.

Waffennacht

I disagree with everyone whom says a 1-2k DMG is playable.

The amount of healing both over time and burst is so high 1-2k is worthless.

3-4k is balanced - every weave is not.

After it's fixed it'll be powerful no doubt.

Just saying that oblivion glyph would be worthless if cut in half - just like how fire frost and Lightning Glyphs are worthless now

Maryal

BohnT wrote: »

This will be the next reign of terror which will flood cyrodiil. Farewell scrubs, noobs and xv1 heros your tools are stronger than before, no tank will ever block your sight, no skilled player will be in your way, no "troll" will disturb your brainless marsh from one keep to the next.

Welcome to Eso: Zerglings Unlimited

On a serious note, oblivion damage glyphs need to be nerfed drastically or changed into a heal, anything that counters all counterplay is bad design very bad design.

Why is the sky falling all of a sudden?

The oblivion damage glyph has been in eso since at least 2014 (technically call glyph of 'decrease health' dealing X 'unresistable damage' although the damage was renamed 'oblivion damage' roughly 1 - 1 1/2 years ago)

Torugs pact has been in eso since at least 2014

The infused weapon trait has been in eso since at least 2014

Does anyone really think that nobody thought to combine any/all of the above during all this time? Of course they did! Maybe there is a reason why it never became the meta (sigh).

Unfortunately, people get curious when threads like this hype this stuff up. As a result, I have no doubt that there will be an influx of folks trying it out. Will it last? I doubt it.

akray21

Torgus Pact + Oblivion Damage + Infused = Viper on steroids.

Derra

Waffennacht wrote: »

I disagree with everyone whom says a 1-2k DMG is playable.

The amount of healing both over time and burst is so high 1-2k is worthless.

3-4k is balanced - every weave is not.

After it's fixed it'll be powerful no doubt.

Just saying that oblivion glyph would be worthless if cut in half - just like how fire frost and Lightning Glyphs are worthless now

The assumption that fire frost and lightning enchants are worthless currently is simply wrong.

Waffennacht

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I disagree with everyone whom says a 1-2k DMG is playable.

The amount of healing both over time and burst is so high 1-2k is worthless.

3-4k is balanced - every weave is not.

After it's fixed it'll be powerful no doubt.

Just saying that oblivion glyph would be worthless if cut in half - just like how fire frost and Lightning Glyphs are worthless now

The assumption that fire frost and lightning enchants are worthless currently is simply wrong.

I have never had any of those in a death recap.

I can't see giving up resource poisons/Oblivion/wpn spell DMG glyph/prismatic for Lightning fire or Frost

If you're talking pve well then maybe? I dunno, I PvP

raasdal

Maryal wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This will be the next reign of terror which will flood cyrodiil. Farewell scrubs, noobs and xv1 heros your tools are stronger than before, no tank will ever block your sight, no skilled player will be in your way, no "troll" will disturb your brainless marsh from one keep to the next.

Welcome to Eso: Zerglings Unlimited

On a serious note, oblivion damage glyphs need to be nerfed drastically or changed into a heal, anything that counters all counterplay is bad design very bad design.

Why is the sky falling all of a sudden?

The oblivion damage glyph has been in eso since at least 2014 (technically call glyph of 'decrease health' dealing X 'unresistable damage' although the damage was renamed 'oblivion damage' roughly 1 - 1 1/2 years ago)

Torugs pact has been in eso since at least 2014

The infused weapon trait has been in eso since at least 2014

Does anyone really think that nobody thought to combine any/all of the above during all this time? Of course they did! Maybe there is a reason why it never became the meta (sigh).

Unfortunately, people get curious when threads like this hype this stuff up. As a result, I have no doubt that there will be an influx of folks trying it out. Will it last? I doubt it.

Because you are not paying attention. Infused has been bugged and not working with oblivion enchant. That is the single and only reason everybody is not running infused with ovliviln enchant in PVP.

When this patch goes live, everyone in PVP will be running infused weappn with oblivion enchant. Torugs will only be for those who like that thing. But everyone else will be doing it also. Torugs or no torugs.

Why now and not before? Because they fixed the big with infused working with OB. Come on already, get in the game or get out

Thogard

Maryal wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

This will be the next reign of terror which will flood cyrodiil. Farewell scrubs, noobs and xv1 heros your tools are stronger than before, no tank will ever block your sight, no skilled player will be in your way, no "troll" will disturb your brainless marsh from one keep to the next.

Welcome to Eso: Zerglings Unlimited

On a serious note, oblivion damage glyphs need to be nerfed drastically or changed into a heal, anything that counters all counterplay is bad design very bad design.

Why is the sky falling all of a sudden?

The oblivion damage glyph has been in eso since at least 2014 (technically call glyph of 'decrease health' dealing X 'unresistable damage' although the damage was renamed 'oblivion damage' roughly 1 - 1 1/2 years ago)

Torugs pact has been in eso since at least 2014

The infused weapon trait has been in eso since at least 2014

Does anyone really think that nobody thought to combine any/all of the above during all this time? Of course they did! Maybe there is a reason why it never became the meta (sigh).

Unfortunately, people get curious when threads like this hype this stuff up. As a result, I have no doubt that there will be an influx of folks trying it out. Will it last? I doubt it.

I've been running it for a while on live. But the bug on infused / oblivion really hurts the dmg. Oblivion is on a 3s cooldown and hits for 2964, so I put it on Mainhand DW and run deadly cloak and let the 3s pulse proc it rather than try to weave. I run abs Stam on offhand and bloodcraze procs it every 2s for some nice Stam regen (552).

raasdal

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I disagree with everyone whom says a 1-2k DMG is playable.

The amount of healing both over time and burst is so high 1-2k is worthless.

3-4k is balanced - every weave is not.

After it's fixed it'll be powerful no doubt.

Just saying that oblivion glyph would be worthless if cut in half - just like how fire frost and Lightning Glyphs are worthless now

The assumption that fire frost and lightning enchants are worthless currently is simply wrong.

I have never had any of those in a death recap.

I can't see giving up resource poisons/Oblivion/wpn spell DMG glyph/prismatic for Lightning fire or Frost

If you're talking pve well then maybe? I dunno, I PvP

Mathematically speaking, pure dmg like frost/fire will outperform your Spelldmg glyph, unless you have alot of dots already running or using an ult, and not counting benefit of heals. So for gank or non-ulti burst, those will be better.

They are not in your recap because they have a cooldown. They take you from 80 to 70%. Rest is taken by skills and executes, after the initial hit.

STEVIL

ZOS_JessicaFolsom wrote: »

paulsimonps wrote: »

I am going to assume that the fix is either the fact that the Infused and Torugs 30% increase are not additive, and are instead multiplicative or that the 1s cooldown decrease is on the wrong side of the formula when done with Torug's Pacts cooldown decrease.

You have the right idea. This is the patch note:

Torug’s Pact: This item set now reduces the cooldown of your weapon enchantment by 30% instead of one second, and is multiplicative with the cooldown reduction of the Infused trait.

But if the same cooldown applies to the other damaging enchants and the OD does more damage (under BS) and ignores resistances on top of that then it is still outperforming the others.

is the idea that it might not outperform poisons so poisons are the PVP alternative for OD enchants and the other enchants are for PVE?

Waffennacht

@raasdal well it may maybe work out that way w/o Torug, with it you can have potentially 100% up time on spell dmg wpn DMG glyph - also boosts heals

And I seriously doubt Lightning glyph compares to resource poisons

I'll go as far to say Stam NBs do not use frost fire lightning Glyphs lol

My point is, making Oblivion deal 50% less DMG will render it useless and you know it's true

glavius

Maryal wrote: »

Why is the sky falling all of a sudden?

The oblivion damage glyph has been in eso since at least 2014 (technically call glyph of 'decrease health' dealing X 'unresistable damage' although the damage was renamed 'oblivion damage' roughly 1 - 1 1/2 years ago

No it hasn't. It was changed to oblivion damage recently. Before that it was unresistable damage, which was mitigated by battlespirit but not by resists.

Riluanesht_Keakian

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Thogard

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

The change/nerf to Torug's Pact in 3.1.1 renders it useless/redundant when combined with infused when using damage enchants. I posted the following in its own thread for discussion:

In 3.1.1, Torug's Pact's 1 second cooldown reduction on enchants was changed to a 30% multiplicative reduction instead. This means that when combined with infused, in the 3.1.0 PTS the cooldown on damage enchants such as fire was 1 second, while in 3.1.1 it is 1.4 seconds.

1.4 seconds means you can only weave in the enchant on every other light attack, which is no different than just using infused without Torug's Pact. This renders Torug's Pact's cooldown reduction useless for damage enchants, which outside of Oblivion damage, were not over-performing.

So here is my proposal: Change the 30% multiplicative bonus to 40% so that when Torug's is combined with infused, a damage enchant has a cooldown of 1.2 seconds, allowing weaving while still being long enough to prevent continous light attack spam proccing the enchant. In addition, either :

1. Have the Oblivion damage enchant's cooldown be changed changed from 4 seconds to 6ish so the cooldown is nerfed from 1.4 to 1.8 when combined with infused, or
2. Have its damage nerfed by closer to 20-30% instead of 6%, which is the current nerf on the PTS.

Throughout the PTS forums there is an almost unanimous agreement that it was the Oblivion enchant, not Torug's Pact, that was the problem. Hopefully a solution is found that doesn't involve nerfing an already niche and arguably under-performing set.

I don't think you can call Torug's pact underperforming. Just underused.

It's particularly lethal for Mag DKs and magplars, but still really good on Stam characters. Many people don't want to sacrifice the 2-4 bonuses to get the 5th, but they don't realize that 5th bonus is ridiculous if used correctly.

Drop sharpened for infused and then Mix and match any of these three:
3000 dmg and 552 Stam regen /every 2s
3000 dmg and 552 mag recovery every 2s
3000 dmg and 1300 heal every 2s
532 spell/weapon dmg with full uptime
532 spell/weapon debuff with full uptime
3700 resistance debuff with full uptime
2964 obliv dmg every 3s

I personally use the wep dmg increase, Stam regen, and obliv dmg, but I'm toying with the idea of dropping obliv dmg and running the weapon dmg debuff and combining that with choking talon's maim to really lower my enemy's dmg

Edit: but yeah after this patch goes live my Torug stuff will all be getting decon'd because of the cooldown change

Anne_Firehawk

This needs some serious adjustment, Oblivion Damage is absolute cancer.

@Wrobel
@ZOS_RichLambert

Bakkagami

Ankael07 wrote: »

in a 1 on 1 situation this set up doesnt seem so bad since its easy to counter it with a HoT spell and just dash out higher damage than 3k per 1.2 sec. But in BGs a pre-assambled team of tanks will definitely use this and 2 shot people in 3 seconds.

in most pvp situations u aren't pulling more than 2.5k dps. 3k incoming dps means u are either going to die very soon or u are going to have to on the defensive. if this can provide 2k+ dps without a single skill factored in there is no countering it. its gotta be nerfed, infused/torugs shouldn't apply to oblivion enchant just as resists/mitigations and minor/major berserk don't apply.

Riluanesht_Keakian

del

Maryal

glavius wrote: »

Maryal wrote: »

Why is the sky falling all of a sudden?

The oblivion damage glyph has been in eso since at least 2014 (technically call glyph of 'decrease health' dealing X 'unresistable damage' although the damage was renamed 'oblivion damage' roughly 1 - 1 1/2 years ago

No it hasn't. It was changed to oblivion damage recently. Before that it was unresistable damage, which was mitigated by battlespirit but not by resists.

Dated October 2016 for your viewing pleasure:
https://forums.elderscrollsonline.com/en/discussion/296627/unresistable-damage-now-damage-against-daedra

Thogard

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

"I don't think you can call Torug's pact underperforming. Just underused.

It's particularly lethal for Mag DKs and magplars, but still really good on Stam characters. Many people don't want to sacrifice the 2-4 bonuses to get the 5th, but they don't realize that 5th bonus is ridiculous if used correctly.

Drop sharpened for infused and then Mix and match any of these three:
3000 dmg and 552 Stam regen /every 2s
3000 dmg and 552 mag recovery every 2s
3000 dmg and 1300 heal every 2s
532 spell/weapon dmg with full uptime
532 spell/weapon debuff with full uptime
3700 resistance debuff with full uptime
2964 obliv dmg every 3s

I personally use the wep dmg increase, Stam regen, and obliv dmg, but I'm toying with the idea of dropping obliv dmg and running the weapon dmg debuff and combining that with choking talon's maim to really lower my enemy's dmg"

(Edit: screwed up the quote function, my bad)

The issue is that you can have those 4s enchants activate every 2 seconds and have the 10s enchants have full uptime while only using infused. With Torug's combined with infused, those 2s cooldowns are still 2s cooldowns, and full uptime is still full uptime - you don't actually gain any benefit from Torug's cooldown reduction while using infused.

The only benefit Torug's gives you while using infused is the 30% increase on the enchantments tooltip, which is an extremely weak 5 piece bonus with already mediocre 2-4 piece bonuses.

Agreed with respect to the cooldown.
That 30% bonus though is not too shabby. In my case, that's equivalent to 130ish Stam regen, 120ish weapon dmg, and 400ish oblivion dmg every 3s. Downside is I have to give up sharpened, but I usually play in a group (BGs / PvP, was top 20 in each category last week and #3 in deathmatch) so I get armor debuffs from teammates.

I will no longer use it though. I'm a Stam character and need the 2-4 piece bonus.

I've already bought infused necropotence staves for my sorc and my DK will get sidelined for a while but I've bought him some infused spriggan gear (been gifted it as well thanks to @Eraos) and I've also locked down some infused seventh legion weapons.. I think I'll run viper, seventh legion, and bloodspawn with the new lover mundus.

Riluanesht_Keakian

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Riluanesht_Keakian

del

Thogard

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

"I don't think you can call Torug's pact underperforming. Just underused.

It's particularly lethal for Mag DKs and magplars, but still really good on Stam characters. Many people don't want to sacrifice the 2-4 bonuses to get the 5th, but they don't realize that 5th bonus is ridiculous if used correctly.

Drop sharpened for infused and then Mix and match any of these three:
3000 dmg and 552 Stam regen /every 2s
3000 dmg and 552 mag recovery every 2s
3000 dmg and 1300 heal every 2s
532 spell/weapon dmg with full uptime
532 spell/weapon debuff with full uptime
3700 resistance debuff with full uptime
2964 obliv dmg every 3s

I personally use the wep dmg increase, Stam regen, and obliv dmg, but I'm toying with the idea of dropping obliv dmg and running the weapon dmg debuff and combining that with choking talon's maim to really lower my enemy's dmg"

(Edit: screwed up the quote function, my bad)

The issue is that you can have those 4s enchants activate every 2 seconds and have the 10s enchants have full uptime while only using infused. With Torug's combined with infused, those 2s cooldowns are still 2s cooldowns, and full uptime is still full uptime - you don't actually gain any benefit from Torug's cooldown reduction while using infused.

The only benefit Torug's gives you while using infused is the 30% increase on the enchantments tooltip, which is an extremely weak 5 piece bonus with already mediocre 2-4 piece bonuses.

Agreed with respect to the cooldown.
That 30% bonus though is not too shabby. In my case, that's equivalent to 130ish Stam regen, 120ish weapon dmg, and 400ish oblivion dmg every 3s. Downside is I have to give up sharpened, but I usually play in a group (BGs / PvP, was top 20 in each category last week and #3 in deathmatch) so I get armor debuffs from teammates.

I will no longer use it though. I'm a Stam character and need the 2-4 piece bonus.

I've already bought infused necropotence staves for my sorc and my DK will get sidelined for a while but I've bought him some infused spriggan gear (been gifted it as well thanks to @Eraos) and I've also locked down some infused seventh legion weapons.. I think I'll run viper, seventh legion, and bloodspawn with the new lover mundus.

With your numbers that means all the 5 piece bonus of torug's pact would offer you next patch is 43 stam regen, 120 weapon damage, and 133 damage a second. That is a really bad 5 piece bonus. Torug's will need a significant buff to its potency bonus for it to be viable in its current state since the cooldown reduction is redundant with infused.

Your math is off. After this patch my character will be stronger than he currently is simply because infused effect increase is going up, therefore Torug's 30% will be multiplying a larger number.

Weapon dmg will be 348 (base) x 1.3 (infused) = 452. 452 x 1.3 (Torug) = 588. = 136 difference
Abs stam = 1900 dmg 354 recovery. Infused = 2470 dmg 460 recovery, Torug = 3211 dmg 598 recovery. Difference = 741 dmg and 138 recovery

So let's say you use abs Stam and abs magicka to make it an easier comparison. Torug's would give you:
136 weapon dmg
138 magicka recovery
138 Stam recovery
Attack that hits for 741 every second (370 after battle spirit)

I'm not saying it's overpowered, but it isn't exactly underpowered either.

And what you're not taking into account are some of the tricks you can play with procing weapon enchants on DW such as blade cloak then bar swapping to continue procing your main DW enchant even when your other bar's weapon is out. This would help you get past that 1s cooldown that would otherwise limit the cooldown reduction of Torug.

Riluanesht_Keakian

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Xsorus

So whining has made yet another set useless *grin*