Severe balancing issue regarding Torug's Pact changes/fixes and Oblivion Damage

Thogard

The fix isn't to nerf Torug or to nerf there dmg on oblivion...

The fix is to increase the cooldown on oblivion. Make it so that the cooldown is effectively the same as it is running Torug + infused right now before the patch (approximately 3s, so that would be 8s without Torug and infused)

Same DPS change as cutting the dmg in half, but this way we can still use the glyph to kill a sorc at 5% health who got a shield off at the last minute

Iyas

Any Word from zos?

DarkGottbeard

5 to 6 k true damage plus 5k damage from skill + heavy atk. Every heavy atk with dual wield torus infused oblivion x2 and knight slayer. That is an ultimate strength atk with 0 resource stress and no counter play . Oblivion enchant needs battle spirit

STEVIL

Avran_Sylt wrote: »

@GreenSoup2HoT

That was actually addressed with the update:

ZOS_GinaBruno wrote: »

[Weapon enchantments will no longer proc if the initial attack is dodged.

And Torug's Infused Oblivion IMO needs to be looked at. It allows me to deal more than 10% of a target's hp per second (more if target hp is under 29,960 and less if above) with just one 5 piece set. Since sharpened was nerefed to make it comparable to the other traits, changing to infused isn't as big of a deal. Now you can have tanks proccing Tremorscale and dealing more than 10% of a targets HP all in one ability, and they can do the 10% hp damage each second, or if they weave, every weave. And it can't be blocked or reduced by any type of ability, so it's assured damage, which is the problem, just like pre-PTS vipers.


My Final Statement: Oblivion Damage should be Reduced by Battle Spirit.

The bold, imo, has it.

Except for this BS if you look at fire or shock damage enchants including cp boosts and passives boosts from class or race, you see OD is not as much "unresistable" as it is pre-resisted" due to its drastically lower base damage... but if it gets 100% but other get BS then that is a departure. This is esp true if OD also does not raise its dmg on crits like regukar dmg.

So, it boils diwn to getting good results thru shields but less everywhere else. If coure and OD enchant and a stack of poisons ready to slot can cover a lot of bases.

Scyantific

Sucks that Oblivion is going to be so spammable, but it's necessary to counter high HP permablock troll tank builds.

Also, it's not like stam can't abuse this either. I've already got some ideas on how to use Oblivion + Torug's on a Stamblade.

NBrookus

Given the usual counter to being outnumbered is to run away, instead we can look forward to zergs of Torug's Pact Wardens weaving light attacks with cliff racer. Sorcs might be able to streak away. Magblades might be able to perma-cloak away.

Everyone else will have no counter. Not even run/dodge/block.

GreenSoup2HoT

Scyantific wrote: »

Sucks that Oblivion is going to be so spammable, but it's necessary to counter high HP permablock troll tank builds.

Also, it's not like stam can't abuse this either. I've already got some ideas on how to use Oblivion + Torug's on a Stamblade.

Toraqs with dw for stamina is actually a bad idea. The main hand becomes off cooldown before you can even proc the offhand. So its not worth unless you use a bow.

Teridaxus

Scyantific wrote: »

Sucks that Oblivion is going to be so spammable, but it's necessary to counter high HP permablock troll tank builds.

Also, it's not like stam can't abuse this either. I've already got some ideas on how to use Oblivion + Torug's on a Stamblade.

The defile debuffs affects heatlh regen and the disease status effect should stack with it too.
And this is kind of .... abonimation can pretty kill everything.

Avran_Sylt

@GreenSoup2HoT

the DW Twin Slashes ability procs the off-hand ability 100% of the time (while it's off cooldown). LA + Twin slashes will proc both enchantments, hit with a light attack, and have two instances of direct damage while inducing a bleed.

Useful if you want to put a Weapon damage enchantment on the off-hand while keeping the damage proc on the mainhand for more consistent damage procs whilst weaving.

Feanor

@GreenSoup2HoT

I'd like to see your HoT that easily heals through all this damage. Mutagen/Rapid Regen is unreliable because you can't guarantee you get the HoT in the first place. Which leaves spamming healing springs until your ward expires for the heal. That means you're burning magicka, are totally on the defensive side, open to any CC while your opponent(s) get free damage without touching their resource. It's just plain bad.

Katinas

Another "You will have groups that run X builds" thread.
Video proof where 6 enemies run identical builds and time one attack on a particular enemy?

Yuke

what is there to time?

light attack spamming is the only trademark of EU and US zergs ...

And if you had read the thread you would know that 2-3 people are more than enough - you dont need 6.

GreenSoup2HoT

Feanor wrote: »

@GreenSoup2HoT

I'd like to see your HoT that easily heals through all this damage. Mutagen/Rapid Regen is unreliable because you can't guarantee you get the HoT in the first place. Which leaves spamming healing springs until your ward expires for the heal. That means you're burning magicka, are totally on the defensive side, open to any CC while your opponent(s) get free damage without touching their resource. It's just plain bad.

Without toraqs its easy to manage (2 sec infused cd). With toraqs is a different story and why this combo is up for discussion right now.

To counter this combo is possible. Takes a bit of work.

-HoT's
-Lingering Health Pots
-Infused Absorb health enchants
-More health recovery
-Dodging
-Does reflect prevent enchant i forget?
-CC'ing your opponent.
-Potions (espesically on an argonian).
-Cheap resto ultimate.
-NB's can cloak (unless mag nb uses piercing mark)

In every thread you need someone to be the bad guys lawyer to keep the jury (zos) interested enough to take action quickly. Or else the thread dies and is forgotten. Its all apart of the plan.

Biro123

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

@GreenSoup2HoT

I'd like to see your HoT that easily heals through all this damage. Mutagen/Rapid Regen is unreliable because you can't guarantee you get the HoT in the first place. Which leaves spamming healing springs until your ward expires for the heal. That means you're burning magicka, are totally on the defensive side, open to any CC while your opponent(s) get free damage without touching their resource. It's just plain bad.

Without toraqs its easy to manage (2 sec infused cd). With toraqs is a different story and why this combo is up for discussion right now.

To counter this combo is possible. Takes a bit of work.

-HoT's
-Lingering Health Pots
-Infused Absorb health enchants
-More health recovery
-Dodging
-Does reflect prevent enchant i forget?
-CC'ing your opponent.
-Potions (espesically on an argonian).
-Cheap resto ultimate.
-NB's can cloak (unless mag nb uses piercing mark)

In every thread you need someone to be the bad guys lawyer to keep the jury (zos) interested enough to take action quickly. Or else the thread dies and is forgotten. Its all apart of the plan.

That's all just standard stuff that people already use to counter damage. Adding this amount of un-resistable damage is still a lot of added damage despite people doing standard defence/mitigation/healing stuff.

Dorrino

Basically for oblivion damage glyphs with infused weapons not to overperform literally anything else (glyphs/poisons) in pvp the glitch has to stay:)

2sec cd nonresistable ranged spammable damage alone will drastically shift pvp meta.

Which might be not a bad thing after all.

People (some) wanted nerfs to mag sorcs (and to an extent magblades and mag wardens) shields.

This change will buff magblades and nerf the other shield-dependant specs.

BraidasNM

tested it, is ***, plz narf

BaByDontHurtMe

Sinful Duck, my body is ready....

Kram8ion

Cool might dust off my old elite dominion bow with 4200 unresistable dmg even though it's vr14
Each patch means change

GreenSoup2HoT

Kram8ion wrote: »

Cool might dust off my old elite dominion bow with 4200 unresistable dmg even though it's vr14
Each patch means change

Can you get a screenshot of it? It is from eagle eye set? Never heard of it or enchants that are stronger then standard enchants. You sure its not prismatic?

glavius

Image someone has the old Eagles eye set bow in infused trait and combine it with torugs. 6300 oblivion dmg per second. Nice!

Feanor

@Dorrino

I'm fine with the glyphs if you come up with an addon that lets me auto-dodge it. Deal? I always hear Sorc shields need nerfs. I still can't see why that would be the case. Remember not everyone plays CP PvP. Without Bastion you're looking at a 7 to 11k shield regularly.

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

@Dorrino

I'm fine with the glyphs if you come up with an addon that lets me auto-dodge it. Deal? I always hear Sorc shields need nerfs. I still can't see why that would be the case. Remember not everyone plays CP PvP. Without Bastion you're looking at a 7 to 11k shield regularly.

Autododge a 1.2s cooldown?

Do you want to be out of stamina in 10s - because that´s how you go out of stamina in 10s.

Feanor

@Derra

Without charging Stamina of course I really dislike the attempts to solve the perceived issues with shield stacking. There shouldn't be options available which force you into a specific build or worse, offer no counterplay at all. Remove shield stacking by all means. But give Sorcs a reliable burst heal then. I'm totally sure that the complaining wouldn't stop but people would demand a nerf to the heal then.

Derra

Feanor wrote: »

@Derra

Without charging Stamina of course I really dislike the attempts to solve the perceived issues with shield stacking. There shouldn't be options available which force you into a specific build or worse, offer no counterplay at all. Remove shield stacking by all means. But give Sorcs a reliable burst heal then. I'm totally sure that the complaining wouldn't stop but people would demand a nerf to the heal then.

I think there is an issue with shieldstacking and blocking. But they can´t solve that by introducing a mechnic that scales well with numbers.
No idea about block fixes - most likely outgoing heal should get progressively worse.
Shieldstacking harness + hardened flatout should not be possible.

If 3 people can produce enough irresistable dmg/s that you can´t outheal it on a templar there is a problem.

It´s going to be fun if this goes live. I do have ideas how to fight it on sorc but most likely not possible open world. If that´s the case i´m gonna go with my magblade.

nCats

This may be very cancer for duels, true, but then there are other cancerous duel setups; for bg/cyro I don't know, I feel like a proper sorc will benefit more from just an infused+oblivion staff than from the full Torug package, but that's the damage receiving side talking.

Overall, not planning to run it but im undecided on how actually bad it is gonna be.

Biro123

nCats wrote: »

This may be very cancer for duels, true, but then there are other cancerous duel setups; for bg/cyro I don't know, I feel like a proper sorc will benefit more from just an infused+oblivion staff than from the full Torug package, but that's the damage receiving side talking.

Overall, not planning to run it but im undecided on how actually bad it is gonna be.

The biggest cancer isn't gonna be duals. I think from one opponent, I could build to deal with it. The biggest cancer will be open-world, where every man and his dog is spamming this from range - even without Torugs, Infused+Oblivion on its own used this way is gonna be a nightmare.

DRXHarbinger

Yuke wrote: »

I dont think that i have to explain this, no?

3000 unresistable Damage every 1.2 seconds. Three people spamming light attacks can build up 10-12k DPS on a PvP target.

This has to be changed. The whole Oblivion Damage thing is worse than the introduction of Proc Sets.

I actually don't see the issue, Only the glyph penetrates the shield, even surge heals can out heal that glyph in Cyro.

Also you think I'd let you just spam light attack and proc glyphs on me, You'd be too focused on spamming it you wouldn't see any counters coming, lol even my crappy soul assault build would kill you quicker than that. Shield up+frag down+burn = Gone. nothing to see here.

Biro123

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

I dont think that i have to explain this, no?

3000 unresistable Damage every 1.2 seconds. Three people spamming light attacks can build up 10-12k DPS on a PvP target.

This has to be changed. The whole Oblivion Damage thing is worse than the introduction of Proc Sets.

I actually don't see the issue, Only the glyph penetrates the shield, even surge heals can out heal that glyph in Cyro.

Also you think I'd let you just spam light attack and proc glyphs on me, You'd be too focused on spamming it you wouldn't see any counters coming, lol even my crappy soul assault build would kill you quicker than that. Shield up+frag down+burn = Gone. nothing to see here.

Surge goes nowhere near outhealing that.. firstly it's affected by battle-spirit so the heal amount is less than the oblivion hit, 2nd you have to be attacking and not healing/shielding, 3rd you also have to crit.

While bad enough 1v1, the biggest issue is XvX. To compare, I've been caught open-world by a shieldbreaker user plinking his bow multiple times.. When he was the only attacker, I could heal it by using the biggest sorc heal spammable - the twilight matriarch. Ofc. all it takes is a focused-aim hit in with that spam to screw your healing.. or for the attacker to be a bit cleverer and attack the pet first (cos it goes through its shields too - and you don't get the warning noise..) - but he wasn't that clever..

But having someone plink you with this while a 2nd player gets in your face doing their normal burst. You CANNOT both heal AND keep your shields up. There simply aren't enough gcd's in the day. Yeah, you can dodge once or twice - but that only delays. You cannot drop your shields or you're dead in no time from normal attacks. You cannot drop healing or you're dead from oblivion. but you cannot keep both up either.
I'm telling you, everyone is gonna be spamming this in Cyro - and its gonna be a nightmare for everyone except perhaps Templars who can heal through it.

The result will be no more shield-stacking. Sorcs are gonna have to sacrifice a slot on their bar for another heal and/or build a LOT more stam recov for more dodgerolling (sacrificing max mag to do it).

Honestly, this is doing 4x the damage of viper from range and unshieldable/unblockable - how can it NOT be overpowered?

Feanor

Don't forget the buffs to major defile too. I'm already seeing more and more oblivion glyph users in Sotha Sil each day. This can only get worse when the first streamer pushes it.

Derra

DRXHarbinger wrote: »

Yuke wrote: »

I dont think that i have to explain this, no?

3000 unresistable Damage every 1.2 seconds. Three people spamming light attacks can build up 10-12k DPS on a PvP target.

This has to be changed. The whole Oblivion Damage thing is worse than the introduction of Proc Sets.

I actually don't see the issue, Only the glyph penetrates the shield, even surge heals can out heal that glyph in Cyro.

Also you think I'd let you just spam light attack and proc glyphs on me, You'd be too focused on spamming it you wouldn't see any counters coming, lol even my crappy soul assault build would kill you quicker than that. Shield up+frag down+burn = Gone. nothing to see here.

Wow.

Obviously you´d run that on a normal build. Torugs lich skoria on magblade. You get 2996 irresistable dmg every weave while you have skoria funnel cripple entropy flamereach running on you.
There is no cost of opportunity on running this. It´ll outperform any alternative for singletarget dmg by miles and miles if it stays live.

Edit: To put it into perspective: On sustained fights i usually have around 3 - 4k dps on a target with defensive actions etc on my sorc (against block dodge etc). The glyph alone would add minimum 2k dps on that.

Also surge even if it triggers on cooldown (which it doesn´t bc msorc has no dots) does not outheal the glyphs dmg alone.