Severe balancing issue regarding Torug's Pact changes/fixes and Oblivion Damage

Derra

buttaface wrote: »

LOL @ "severe balancing issue" hyperbole much? This is already IN THE GAME, few use it, and the PTS is only a small buff.

Look at all the "1vx" trolling shield spammers and troll block tanks lining up during the early PTS for preemptive nerf whine. Just add this to all the "shield breaker OP" threads. I hardly post here, but reading these forums full of obviously self-interested nerf-herding POs and annoys one into posting after awhile.

1. Doesn't bother anything that can dodge, LOS or stealth. Anything with decent heals will laugh it off. "OMG, HE KILLED ME IN SIX SECONDS!!!!!!!" ...said no one sane in a game where people kill you in 2 seconds all day with a charged up heavy/wreck/ult/proc. Or with flare/javelin/ soul or jesus beam in the same time... or frag wrath... or with... dozens of other spikes, universally CRIPPLED with the attempt to add this into them (LOL at "this can be woven in" what a lie). So which are you OP and the other posters here, sorc or block tank who likes to stand impervious in 5 people attacking? OP also exaggerates the dmg to make their case. I bet if we looked at the tooltips of half or more of the posters in this thread we would see two things a) insanely high tooltips on skills like frags (with innate cc to boot) far far higher than 5k dps and b) pitifully low health (or block tanks). Also shield stacking likely.

2. Lots of opportunity cost to using it, sacrifices burst dps or better defense set. I made a torug/infused/ set a couple weeks ago when bored, and it's... OK, nothing special, a viable option for tankier non block builds, not good in pve. Was looking forward to trying it after this change, but guess the criers will do everything to keep their easy cheesy proxy det ult spam meta in place. You see, they can't implement this into their status quo build because of tradeoffs, they would have to dig into their absurdly high tooltips to do it, hence it can -never- be allowed to happen that other people could use it against them. God forbid they have dedicated healers or... perish the thought... slot a heal... or... sacrilege... move out of their mines and play like everyone else not shield stacking has to play.

3. With this and shieldbreaker in the game RIGHT NOW, I know of at least one active PvP guild REROLLING all of its characters into sorcs to spam proxy det and the other ranged sorc spam. God forbid there was a counter to all sorc rolling groups. Is this it? No way to know, but they sure are scared. There NEEDS to be a counter to that desperately, this or otherwise.

4. Finally, there are FAR better options for a focus BG group than this. Use your imagination and think AOE.

Good luck with the fervent nerfherding on this "severe balancing issue" ROFL, will be interesting to see if it pans out in your favor.

So you´re telling me you´re not only a buttaface but also not the sharpest knife in the drawer?

Waffennacht

If it procs at every 1.5 secs would a single lightning/resto heavy attack proc it twice?

If so that's 6kish damage per heavy? Then knight slayer would be pretty good on top of that, roughly 8k unstoppable DMG per heavy?

Combine with something like Curse or Shalk (though curse would add an unblockable element)

Or just add torug and profit from mad damage while weaving.

I really doubt it'll make it to live?

Dorrino

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna hit live and people will realize how stupid it was to dismiss this topic when they have deathrecaps of 2 lightattacks and 3 oblivion proccs.

If it will go live infused with oblivion damage both bars will be the meta for most if not all specs in pvp.

ps. Looking to buy infused spriggan's greatsword. NA, COD to @dorrino ^_^

kijima

And so as it is written, it shall now come to pass, anyone wearing Infused Torugs with Oblivion Damage shall be named Brie, the 'Cheesiest' of Cheese.

DKsUnite

it's already way too strong. The damage should be 1k so it's on par with every other enchant that does dmg.

SirSocke

I can see the real point behind all this complaining. You want to stay nearly unkillable.

Nobody, except of a real tank, should be able to outheal the damage of three DDs.
Nobody, except of a real tank, should survive the damage of four DDs for more than two seconds.
And a real tank shouldn't be able to kill anybody except of a single DD without any defences.

Just put some points in health and stamina or use some health and stamina enchants like all other classes and the problem is gone.
That way you can use shuffle and block and dodge and stay alive for a much longer time.

Yes you have to sacrifice some Magicka, but that's the way everybody has to go if he/she wants to survive. I, as a stambalde, have three magicka enchantments to have enough magicka for mirrage and cloak.

buttaface

Derra wrote: »

So you´re telling me you´re not only a buttaface but also not the sharpest knife in the drawer?

As expected, no counter from either of the two chief nerfherders because everything I posted was completely accurate with no response possible. The only "severe balance issue" is that favoring magicka spam in group pvp. Is this a counter? Who knows, I doubt it, but counters needed.

"Oh no, we better get outta here, that mighty TORUG'S OBLIVION TEAM is headed this way!!"

... said no one ever other than against a prefab BG team, and if a prefab BG team on comms can't spike down called PUG targets instantly with pretty much ANY skillbar they need to uninstall.

Biro123

buttaface wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

So you´re telling me you´re not only a buttaface but also not the sharpest knife in the drawer?

As expected, no counter from either of the two chief nerfherders because everything I posted was completely accurate with no response possible. The only "severe balance issue" is that favoring magicka spam in group pvp. Is this a counter? Who knows, I doubt it, but counters needed.

"Oh no, we better get outta here, that mighty TORUG'S OBLIVION TEAM is headed this way!!"

... said no one ever other than against a prefab BG team, and if a prefab BG team on comms can't spike down called PUG targets instantly with pretty much ANY skillbar they need to uninstall.

I thought your post was just so far off-base that it actually being sarcastic. So it kind of refuted itself, without needing anyone else to help.

Mondini

The fix is simple. Just keep the oblivion cool down at 4 seconds.

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna hit live and people will realize how stupid it was to dismiss this topic when they have deathrecaps of 2 lightattacks and 3 oblivion proccs.

If it will go live infused with oblivion damage both bars will be the meta for most if not all specs in pvp.

ps. Looking to buy infused spriggan's greatsword. NA, COD to @dorrino ^_^

Same enchatments share cooldown afaik - there´s technically no benefit in running oblivion on both?

Derra

buttaface wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

So you´re telling me you´re not only a buttaface but also not the sharpest knife in the drawer?

As expected, no counter from either of the two chief nerfherders because everything I posted was completely accurate with no response possible. The only "severe balance issue" is that favoring magicka spam in group pvp. Is this a counter? Who knows, I doubt it, but counters needed.

"Oh no, we better get outta here, that mighty TORUG'S OBLIVION TEAM is headed this way!!"

... said no one ever other than against a prefab BG team, and if a prefab BG team on comms can't spike down called PUG targets instantly with pretty much ANY skillbar they need to uninstall.

Your rambling was actually so incoherent that there was no stringent argument possible as a response.

If you can´t see the problem of one enchant doubling your effective dps during sustained fight - well who am i to tell you otherwise.

If you can´t see the problem that chars will have that mainly rely on block + mistform as defense (templars, wardens, DKs) - who am i to tell you otherwise.

If you can´t see that AOE becomes absolutely irrelevant when 4 players can dismantle you from range with unavoidable dmg - well idk what to say.

If you think you can outheal 2300 dps from the enchantment alone (note dodge does not help you bc if you dodge you will just get it via resto/lightning channel) while also outhealing the normal dmg of that player.
Yeah you´re going to be in for a harsh reality check.

It will be manageable for certain classes (mostly shield builds with selfheal overtime capabilities - that being magblade and magsorc with the right builds) in 1v1 situations.
It will be hell on earth for any 1h+shield build regardless of their healing output.
It will destroy mistform as any form of vaible defense.
It´s a problem for classes with weak healing capabilities (stamblade).

I´m just playing every day in a mostly ranged organised and relatively successful group and looking at what this set provides it´s gonna make us so so sooo much stronger. It´s proccmania from one tamriel on maxrange. No need to risk your life in melee.
You´ll see 4 light attacks + a lucky skoria procc evaporat people.
We´re not arguing from the point of magblade and sorc being worried about this (those are the classes that will USE it). We´re arguing because it removes any chance to incorporate melee builds in group setups.

If people thought of viper as a problematic set: This is going to provide the same or higher dmg (depending on target resistances) dmg viper did per hit. Just that it´s gonna hit 3 times in the timeframe viper hit once. On range. Through shields and block and dodge when used on channels.

arkansas_ESO

Thogard wrote: »

I dusted off my stam DK, which has been running Torug's pact + infused since before morrowind.... here's a video I recorded on LIVE tonight.

I recommend that you watch the video in the highest resolution possible so you can follow whats going on. The video isn't sped up at all, but I tend to pan a lot and this is a build that REQUIRES animation cancelling.

I also strongly recommend you look at the numbers coming off my opponents' heads since i'm using dual wield / 2h bar swapping so much... that'll show the true damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PibDjqzKo9Y

This new change will increase my damage a little, but i'm already proc'ing once or twice every swing...

What's ACTUALLY ridiculous is that after the patch I could run the same build with just infused weapons, and WITHOUT Torug's, and still proc just as often!!!!!! That would allow me to run a sustain set, or more likely (since TK will be nerfed) a survivability set.

jesus christ what is up with your UI

anathosdm

You can t proc 2 oblivion glyphs with a heavy atk guys.... they share the same cooldown

raasdal

buttaface wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

So you´re telling me you´re not only a buttaface but also not the sharpest knife in the drawer?

As expected, no counter from either of the two chief nerfherders because everything I posted was completely accurate with no response possible. The only "severe balance issue" is that favoring magicka spam in group pvp. Is this a counter? Who knows, I doubt it, but counters needed.

"Oh no, we better get outta here, that mighty TORUG'S OBLIVION TEAM is headed this way!!"

... said no one ever other than against a prefab BG team, and if a prefab BG team on comms can't spike down called PUG targets instantly with pretty much ANY skillbar they need to uninstall.

When you said that this is already on Live, i basically stopped reading any of it from there, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Currently Oblivion enchants are bugged, and will not be reduced in Cooldown by Infused trait. With next patch they are fixing that, AND buffing infused. This will be a problem, since that will make Oblivion enchant overperform when used with Infused and/or Torugs.

The whole "Torugs Team" comes into play, because that would be a way to maximize this.

Maryal

raasdal wrote: »

When you said that this is already on Live, i basically stopped reading any of it from there, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Currently Oblivion enchants are bugged, and will not be reduced in Cooldown by Infused trait. With next patch they are fixing that, AND buffing infused. This will be a problem, since that will make Oblivion enchant overperform when used with Infused and/or Torugs.

The whole "Torugs Team" comes into play, because that would be a way to maximize this.

ZOS already decided to nerf the oblivion damage weapon enchantment ... it's in the patch notes. Despite the nerf, I'm sure some people will still be unhappy, but the fact that there is a nerf to it (in the patch notes) means we will probably have to see how it plays out once the DLC goes live before ZOS considers any additional changes (if any). It may very well be that ZOS sees the oblivion damage enchantment as something they want us to have as part of a 'meaningful counter-play' toolkit.

Scyantific

Maryal wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

When you said that this is already on Live, i basically stopped reading any of it from there, since you obviously have no idea what you are talking about.

Currently Oblivion enchants are bugged, and will not be reduced in Cooldown by Infused trait. With next patch they are fixing that, AND buffing infused. This will be a problem, since that will make Oblivion enchant overperform when used with Infused and/or Torugs.

The whole "Torugs Team" comes into play, because that would be a way to maximize this.

ZOS already decided to nerf the oblivion damage weapon enchantment ... it's in the patch notes. Despite the nerf, I'm sure some people will still be unhappy, but the fact that there is a nerf to it (in the patch notes) means we will probably have to see how it plays out once the DLC goes live before ZOS considers any additional changes (if any). It may very well be that ZOS sees the oblivion damage enchantment as something they want us to have as part of a 'meaningful counter-play' toolkit.

The nerf is less than 200 damage on the glyph. It's pretty much a worthless nerf.

Hunharibo

You guys just want to nerf this into irrelevancy, complete uselessness. I am all for nerfing, but the values I am seeing here are just complete garbage. 1000 damage very 4 seconds? Lol, NOBODY would use it then and I think thats the point you are trying to achieve here. This should stay relevant!

Derra

Hunharibo wrote: »

You guys just want to nerf this into irrelevancy, complete uselessness. I am all for nerfing, but the values I am seeing here are just complete garbage. 1000 damage very 4 seconds? Lol, NOBODY would use it then and I think thats the point you are trying to achieve here. This should stay relevant!

To be perfectly honest - i don´t think this type of glyph can be balanced for the bonuses torugs and infused provide.

I feel it should be excluded from cooldown reduction or dmg increases - otherwise it would have to be adjusted down too significantly to make it relevant for "normal" builds.

0utLaw

Biro123 wrote: »

Gonna be nasty.. Combine with shieldbreaker and its around 5k unresistable every 1.2 seconds. That's like 4x viper, un-mitigatable, unshieldable, from range.
Not to mention there's the actual normal damage from the attacks on top of that.

Dunno what to do on sorc to be honest.. won't have enough cooldowns to keep both shields AND heals up.. its not like slapping on some heavy armour and relying on heals instead of shields would help... since without shields, the best source of sorc heals(pet) can't stay alive. Will we need to go hybrid and combine rally with shields?

Imho Oblivion damage needs to be affected by battle spirit.

Resto ulti + going offense = your solution

Dorrino

Derra wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna hit live and people will realize how stupid it was to dismiss this topic when they have deathrecaps of 2 lightattacks and 3 oblivion proccs.

If it will go live infused with oblivion damage both bars will be the meta for most if not all specs in pvp.

ps. Looking to buy infused spriggan's greatsword. NA, COD to @dorrino ^_^

Same enchatments share cooldown afaik - there´s technically no benefit in running oblivion on both?

@Derra

This is correct. But having it on both guarantees that it will proc each 2 sec:)

So you won't need to go back to say bow bar to get it procced.

Obliv damage is so strong that i run it on live on bow bar on stam nb.

The only reason i run other things was 4 sec cd glitch with infused.

Now when it's going down to 2 sec it just needs to proc:)

For instance disease does ~same damage on non-blocking non-tank target, and significantly less on blocking/shielding etc etc.

Juhasow

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Why not keep it? That way magicka classes can kill each other through shields. The ones who actually use HoT's will win. I see no issue with this setup except for the greedy sorcs who refuse to slot HoT's.

When You'll show me HoT's that heal for 5k+ in 2 seconds in PvP then we can talk. Because this is amount of dmg You'll get under shields every 1,5 sec from enemie wearing torugs+knight slayer and brainlesly spamming heavy attacks.

Biro123

It kind of makes having 1-2 hots, a burst heal AND troll-king kind of important.

Waffennacht

It's pretty OP, I don't want it nerfed because I wanna use it lol

Derra

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna hit live and people will realize how stupid it was to dismiss this topic when they have deathrecaps of 2 lightattacks and 3 oblivion proccs.

If it will go live infused with oblivion damage both bars will be the meta for most if not all specs in pvp.

ps. Looking to buy infused spriggan's greatsword. NA, COD to @dorrino ^_^

Same enchatments share cooldown afaik - there´s technically no benefit in running oblivion on both?

@Derra

This is correct. But having it on both guarantees that it will proc each 2 sec:)

So you won't need to go back to say bow bar to get it procced.

Obliv damage is so strong that i run it on live on bow bar on stam nb.

The only reason i run other things was 4 sec cd glitch with infused.

Now when it's going down to 2 sec it just needs to proc:)

For instance disease does ~same damage on non-blocking non-tank target, and significantly less on blocking/shielding etc etc.

I personally prefer an infused weapon/spelldmg glyph on backbar - 500 on demand spelldmg (currently 0.5s effective cooldown none next patch).

Biro123

Derra wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna hit live and people will realize how stupid it was to dismiss this topic when they have deathrecaps of 2 lightattacks and 3 oblivion proccs.

If it will go live infused with oblivion damage both bars will be the meta for most if not all specs in pvp.

ps. Looking to buy infused spriggan's greatsword. NA, COD to @dorrino ^_^

Same enchatments share cooldown afaik - there´s technically no benefit in running oblivion on both?

@Derra

This is correct. But having it on both guarantees that it will proc each 2 sec:)

So you won't need to go back to say bow bar to get it procced.

Obliv damage is so strong that i run it on live on bow bar on stam nb.

The only reason i run other things was 4 sec cd glitch with infused.

Now when it's going down to 2 sec it just needs to proc:)

For instance disease does ~same damage on non-blocking non-tank target, and significantly less on blocking/shielding etc etc.

I personally prefer an infused weapon/spelldmg glyph on backbar - 500 on demand spelldmg (currently 0.5s effective cooldown none next patch).

Been using that for ages.. Only 407 currently on live.. Gonna stick with that but with infused oblivion on font bar.

Derra

Biro123 wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Dorrino wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

It´s gonna hit live and people will realize how stupid it was to dismiss this topic when they have deathrecaps of 2 lightattacks and 3 oblivion proccs.

If it will go live infused with oblivion damage both bars will be the meta for most if not all specs in pvp.

ps. Looking to buy infused spriggan's greatsword. NA, COD to @dorrino ^_^

Same enchatments share cooldown afaik - there´s technically no benefit in running oblivion on both?

@Derra

This is correct. But having it on both guarantees that it will proc each 2 sec:)

So you won't need to go back to say bow bar to get it procced.

Obliv damage is so strong that i run it on live on bow bar on stam nb.

The only reason i run other things was 4 sec cd glitch with infused.

Now when it's going down to 2 sec it just needs to proc:)

For instance disease does ~same damage on non-blocking non-tank target, and significantly less on blocking/shielding etc etc.

I personally prefer an infused weapon/spelldmg glyph on backbar - 500 on demand spelldmg (currently 0.5s effective cooldown none next patch).

Been using that for ages.. Only 407 currently on live.. Gonna stick with that but with infused oblivion on font bar.

417 * 1.26 for me.

HiImRex

TLDR if you want a summary of the discussion so far:

group 1: guys we did the math with the numbers and tested in PTS its really *** bad for pvp balance

group 2: lol how do you know its gonna be a problem when its just patch notes

group 1: we tested it and its math...

group 2: lol lol it wont be a problem because mag sorcs are OP

group 1: what does that have to do with anything

group 2: lol lol lol you guys just wanna nerf everything

group 1: what??? what are we even talking about here?

group 2: lol lol lol lol no ones gonna die from only light attacks

group 1: that's not even what we're ... what?

group 2: lol lol lol lol lol lol lol lol

ZOS_JessicaFolsom

Hi folks,

Just a heads-up that there is indeed a bug with Torug's Pact that will be fixed in the next PTS patch. You can expect to see the damage output go back down to a more reasonable amount.

Strider_Roshin

An easy fix is to rework how Torug's pact works. The way it should work is by reducing the cool down by 1 second before Infused applies. This would make it so the enchant procs every 2 seconds vs every 2.5 which is how long it takes non Torug's Pact users.

Xvorg

Torug's + charged weapons + poison/flame glyph