Severe balancing issue regarding Torug's Pact changes/fixes and Oblivion Damage

Xvorg

Yuke wrote: »

I dont think that i have to explain this, no?

3000 unresistable Damage every 1.2 seconds. Three people spamming light attacks can build up 10-12k DPS on a PvP target.

This has to be changed. The whole Oblivion Damage thing is worse than the introduction of Proc Sets.

That's not even the most useful glyph in a Torug's build

But agree, it's too much

Yuke

In PvP its the most useful as it ignores literally everything. I can live with PvE inbalances as only some poor NPCs suffer...

Xvorg

Yuke wrote: »

In PvP its the most useful as it ignores literally everything. I can live with PvE inbalances as only some poor NPCs suffer...

Yes, but it won't save you in a world full of Torug's + infused

DisgracefulMind

This cannot go live. This is terrible.

NBrookus

Feanor wrote: »

I'm already seeing more and more oblivion glyph users in Sotha Sil each day. This can only get worse when the first streamer pushes it.

Short of a few procblades, I don't ever have death recaps without it anymore.

The argument "we need this to kill troll tanks" and "we need this to get through shield stacks" ignores that fact that the sledgehammer does even more damage to people not in those specs and has no counter play.

I think it would be more balanced if the enchants were affected by battlespirit, but could crit, and had a slightly longer cooldown. Still useful, but not the de facto choice for every build.

BraidasNM

inb4 this goes live

Dorrino

Feanor wrote: »

@Dorrino

I'm fine with the glyphs if you come up with an addon that lets me auto-dodge it. Deal? I always hear Sorc shields need nerfs. I still can't see why that would be the case. Remember not everyone plays CP PvP. Without Bastion you're looking at a 7 to 11k shield regularly.

@Feanor

1. You don't need auto-dodges for 2 sec cd glyphs:)

2. Because spammable uncrittable defense that without any additional means (dodges, blocks) protects against 1-2 good damagers and 3-4 average. Too high effectiveness/complexity-of-use ratio.

GreenSoup2HoT

NBrookus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'm already seeing more and more oblivion glyph users in Sotha Sil each day. This can only get worse when the first streamer pushes it.

Short of a few procblades, I don't ever have death recaps without it anymore.

The argument "we need this to kill troll tanks" and "we need this to get through shield stacks" ignores that fact that the sledgehammer does even more damage to people not in those specs and has no counter play.

I think it would be more balanced if the enchants were affected by battlespirit, but could crit, and had a slightly longer cooldown. Still useful, but not the de facto choice for every build.

How to spot a mag sorc.

Feanor

@GreenSoup2HoT

Yes it's totally unwarranted to voice concerns about a play style that has no downside for the attacker but probably leaves next to no counterplay for the victim. Let's just dismiss our Sorcs until ZOS maybe fixes it in December 2017.

Derra

Let them all think it´s only an issue for sorcs.

It´s gonna destroy any build working with mistform or block as their main defense and is going to increase dps by 30 to 50% depending on class using it for 1v1 encounters.

It´s gonna hit live and people will realize how stupid it was to dismiss this topic when they have deathrecaps of 2 lightattacks and 3 oblivion proccs.

Thogard

I dusted off my stam DK, which has been running Torug's pact + infused since before morrowind.... here's a video I recorded on LIVE tonight.

I recommend that you watch the video in the highest resolution possible so you can follow whats going on. The video isn't sped up at all, but I tend to pan a lot and this is a build that REQUIRES animation cancelling.

I also strongly recommend you look at the numbers coming off my opponents' heads since i'm using dual wield / 2h bar swapping so much... that'll show the true damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PibDjqzKo9Y

This new change will increase my damage a little, but i'm already proc'ing once or twice every swing...

What's ACTUALLY ridiculous is that after the patch I could run the same build with just infused weapons, and WITHOUT Torug's, and still proc just as often!!!!!! That would allow me to run a sustain set, or more likely (since TK will be nerfed) a survivability set.

Maryal

What about:
Using Knight Slayer (5th item bonus "Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks against Players deal and additional 10% of their Max Health as Oblivion Damage" .. i.e., 3 jewelry, helmet & shoulders)
PLUS
A full set of Torug's (chest, waist, feet, legs & arms)
PLUS
An infused weapon enchanted with oblivion damage

OMG! This cannot be allowed to go live! ... Oh wait ... deja vu ... wasn't this what *everyone said during Morrowind beta? (answer: yes)

Well, despite the many protests to the contrary, it did go live ... however ... what *everyone ended up complaining about were the Viper, Red Mountain, Velidreth, and Selene types of proc sets.

The only oblivion damage that got much notoriety had to do with Shield Breaker, but that was related to a bug with the set where when using it with a certain type of weapon pretty much caused instant and unavoidable death (note: that bug is getting fixed with this update).

Torug's is a very useful armor set and has been around for a long time; many people who use it choose weapon glyphs other than oblivion damage. Also, it's not like the oblivion damage glyph is new ... we've had it for a couple of years (it used to be called unresistable damage, but was later renamed to oblivion damage). I think we will survive.

* everyone (used figuratively, not literally)

IxskullzxI

Proc sets were adjusted because some were dealing instant, unavoidable damage. No reason this shouldnt be adjusted too. There is literally 0 counter play. It goes through block, shields, and even mist form. It's pretty ridiculous. This needs to be toned down.

NBrookus

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

NBrookus wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

I'm already seeing more and more oblivion glyph users in Sotha Sil each day. This can only get worse when the first streamer pushes it.

Short of a few procblades, I don't ever have death recaps without it anymore.

The argument "we need this to kill troll tanks" and "we need this to get through shield stacks" ignores that fact that the sledgehammer does even more damage to people not in those specs and has no counter play.

I think it would be more balanced if the enchants were affected by battlespirit, but could crit, and had a slightly longer cooldown. Still useful, but not the de facto choice for every build.

How to spot a mag sorc.

I've played sorc maybe 5 days in the past year. This is not a sorc issue.

Maryal wrote: »

What about:
Using Knight Slayer

OMG! This cannot be allowed to go live! ... Oh wait ... deja vu ... wasn't this what *everyone said during Morrowind beta? (answer: yes)

I saw most people trying it with lightnings staves, where it was bugged. So they dropped it and moved on.

Now it's not bugged. And it got buffed.

Grumble_and_Grunt

Thogard wrote: »

I dusted off my stam DK, which has been running Torug's pact + infused since before morrowind.... here's a video I recorded on LIVE tonight.

I recommend that you watch the video in the highest resolution possible so you can follow whats going on. The video isn't sped up at all, but I tend to pan a lot and this is a build that REQUIRES animation cancelling.

I also strongly recommend you look at the numbers coming off my opponents' heads since i'm using dual wield / 2h bar swapping so much... that'll show the true damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PibDjqzKo9Y

This new change will increase my damage a little, but i'm already proc'ing once or twice every swing...

What's ACTUALLY ridiculous is that after the patch I could run the same build with just infused weapons, and WITHOUT Torug's, and still proc just as often!!!!!! That would allow me to run a sustain set, or more likely (since TK will be nerfed) a survivability set.

dafaq your UI man xD

Biro123

Well, I think I have my build figured out for next patch.

Something to use Oblivion with Infused... Check!
Something to counter Oblivion with Infused... Check!
A bit of sustain... Check!
Anything else is now just a bonus..

Strider_Roshin

Keep the glyph, change the set. Why ruin an enchant that's not overall OP for the sake of one set that makes it so? Simply adjust the set that makes it too powerful. Simple.

Avran_Sylt

Buff the damage of the Oblivion Damage enchantment. (still lower than standard?)
Double the values of knightslayer and shieldbreaker.
Allow knightslayer and shieldbreaker to be used outside of PvP (knightslayer with a conditional of on only standard monsters)
Oblivion damage still bypasses blocking and damage shields
Oblivion damage is now reduced by Spell Resistance and Battle Spirit
Allow it to crit?
Status chance proc an unresistable amount of damage? (useful for charged builds)?

Thogard

Grumble_and_Grunt wrote: »

Thogard wrote: »

I dusted off my stam DK, which has been running Torug's pact + infused since before morrowind.... here's a video I recorded on LIVE tonight.

I recommend that you watch the video in the highest resolution possible so you can follow whats going on. The video isn't sped up at all, but I tend to pan a lot and this is a build that REQUIRES animation cancelling.

I also strongly recommend you look at the numbers coming off my opponents' heads since i'm using dual wield / 2h bar swapping so much... that'll show the true damage.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PibDjqzKo9Y

This new change will increase my damage a little, but i'm already proc'ing once or twice every swing...

What's ACTUALLY ridiculous is that after the patch I could run the same build with just infused weapons, and WITHOUT Torug's, and still proc just as often!!!!!! That would allow me to run a sustain set, or more likely (since TK will be nerfed) a survivability set.

dafaq your UI man xD

lol I'm super picky - it's a combination of a few UIs that I threw together.

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Keep the glyph, change the set. Why ruin an enchant that's not overall OP for the sake of one set that makes it so? Simply adjust the set that makes it too powerful. Simple.

You don't get it bro. If infused goes live as it is on the PTS, running torugs pact would be a bad idea. Why? Because if you're a good player who can weapon swap and animation cancel, you'll already be getting a weapon enchant OR TWO to proc with every light attack! A 2s cooldown means a 1s cooldown when bar swapping! You have to use Torugs pact to get that on live currently.

Chilly-McFreeze

Maryal wrote: »

What about:
Using Knight Slayer (5th item bonus "Your fully-charged Heavy Attacks against Players deal and additional 10% of their Max Health as Oblivion Damage" .. i.e., 3 jewelry, helmet & shoulders)
PLUS
A full set of Torug's (chest, waist, feet, legs & arms)
PLUS
An infused weapon enchanted with oblivion damage

OMG! This cannot be allowed to go live! ... Oh wait ... deja vu ... wasn't this what *everyone said during Morrowind beta? (answer: yes)

Well, despite the many protests to the contrary, it did go live ... however ... what *everyone ended up complaining about were the Viper, Red Mountain, Velidreth, and Selene types of proc sets.

The only oblivion damage that got much notoriety had to do with Shield Breaker, but that was related to a bug with the set where when using it with a certain type of weapon pretty much caused instant and unavoidable death (note: that bug is getting fixed with this update).

Torug's is a very useful armor set and has been around for a long time; many people who use it choose weapon glyphs other than oblivion damage. Also, it's not like the oblivion damage glyph is new ... we've had it for a couple of years (it used to be called unresistable damage, but was later renamed to oblivion damage). I think we will survive.

* everyone (used figuratively, not literally)

You forgot that infused gets buffed and the bug which cause to NOT shorten the oblivion damage cooldown will be fixed. So now it's one proc every 4 seconds. Then it's 1 proc every 1.5 seconds. See the difference?

Also view this in the light of the upcomming proc set changes. Viper, Red Mountain, Widowmaker all get changed to do something else "instead of instantly dealing unavoidable damage"*. We had a 2.2 Viper proc every 4 seconds on melee dmg. Now that this will be gone we get an unavoidable, instant 2.9K proc every 1.5s on LA, HA and Weapon skills. Makes no sense.

This is not "learn to adapt".

*qoute from pts patch notes

DeHei

raasdal wrote: »

Shhhh.... I have been waiting for them to fix the Infused bug with Oblivion Damage, to dust off my old Torugs/Infused. I will now combine it with Knightslayer, on a MagTemplar.

Derra wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Why not keep it? That way magicka classes can kill each other through shields. The ones who actually use HoT's will win. I see no issue with this setup except for the greedy sorcs who refuse to slot HoT's.

That´s probably the most ignorant statement i´ve read so far. Sorc is actually the class that will have the least issues with this (and utilize it the most).

You will have 4 people lightattacking you and they will basically be able to kill you within 2s with 2 lightattacks each. Not using any skills.
It´s basically viper on steroids (bc you can´t defend with things like mistform or block)on 1.3s cooldown and on range.
This is the definition of zero counterplay zergempowering mechanic.

It´s not gonna be (that much of) an issue for sorcs because they can spread the dmg between shields and hp making healing it way easier than on any target that only works with their HP pool.

Its like shield breaker though. Sorcs generally have the lowest health pool and use no hots. Oblivion enchants with infused/toraqs would eat them alive through shields which is why i said it would hurt them the most.

You can now dodge the enchant.

Would 2k oblivion procs be fine? It would just mimic a bow player using shield breaker. If you cant heal through that then i dunno what to tell ya.

Toraqs could probably recieve a 10% damage nerf and only apply a 0.5 cd reduction.

Since sharpend got nerfed, players are gonna need oblivion damage to kill tanky targets.

Do you not realize that the problem isn´t about 1v1 but about irresistable unavoidable instant dmg from multiple sources?

I don´t think any competent sorc will give a damn about that tbh. It´s the best thing that can happen when dmg spreads between shield and hp for 1v1 situations.

Really? I will be doing app. 5k Oblivion Damage every 2 sec. On top of that, damage from one skill, another enchant and my DW heavy. How would you keep up your health as a MagSorc, when i have all your 20K health taken away, in 6 seconds - disregarding any shields.

Interesting will be 5 pieces torugs, 5 pieces knight slayer, weapon with infused and oblivionenchantment on a 1H+Shield bar. You able to run full tanky with that and destroy the enemy really fast without using ressources

DeHei

DeHei wrote: »

raasdal wrote: »

Shhhh.... I have been waiting for them to fix the Infused bug with Oblivion Damage, to dust off my old Torugs/Infused. I will now combine it with Knightslayer, on a MagTemplar.

Derra wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Why not keep it? That way magicka classes can kill each other through shields. The ones who actually use HoT's will win. I see no issue with this setup except for the greedy sorcs who refuse to slot HoT's.

That´s probably the most ignorant statement i´ve read so far. Sorc is actually the class that will have the least issues with this (and utilize it the most).

You will have 4 people lightattacking you and they will basically be able to kill you within 2s with 2 lightattacks each. Not using any skills.
It´s basically viper on steroids (bc you can´t defend with things like mistform or block)on 1.3s cooldown and on range.
This is the definition of zero counterplay zergempowering mechanic.

It´s not gonna be (that much of) an issue for sorcs because they can spread the dmg between shields and hp making healing it way easier than on any target that only works with their HP pool.

Its like shield breaker though. Sorcs generally have the lowest health pool and use no hots. Oblivion enchants with infused/toraqs would eat them alive through shields which is why i said it would hurt them the most.

You can now dodge the enchant.

Would 2k oblivion procs be fine? It would just mimic a bow player using shield breaker. If you cant heal through that then i dunno what to tell ya.

Toraqs could probably recieve a 10% damage nerf and only apply a 0.5 cd reduction.

Since sharpend got nerfed, players are gonna need oblivion damage to kill tanky targets.

Do you not realize that the problem isn´t about 1v1 but about irresistable unavoidable instant dmg from multiple sources?

I don´t think any competent sorc will give a damn about that tbh. It´s the best thing that can happen when dmg spreads between shield and hp for 1v1 situations.

Really? I will be doing app. 5k Oblivion Damage every 2 sec. On top of that, damage from one skill, another enchant and my DW heavy. How would you keep up your health as a MagSorc, when i have all your 20K health taken away, in 6 seconds - disregarding any shields.

Interesting will be 5 pieces torugs, 5 pieces knight slayer, weapon with infused and oblivionenchantment on a 1H+Shield bar. You able to run full tanky with that and destroy the enemy really fast without using ressources

I really miss a new monsterset with obliviondamage to complete the build

Jamini

The opportunity cost for running this is that you do not get ability resource poisons, which is a very large downside in PvP.

Also it's not hard at all to outheal if you aren't getting hit by it constantly. One tick of vigor, colag blood/powerlash/recast of embers, most siphoning skills (siphoning strikes/attacks actually should completely outheal this one its own) , most warden skills (lotus will mitigate most of this, and you have spores/thicket), many templar skills (wave hand, damage gone. Magplar ignores incoming damage), the matriarch heal/healing ward (rolldodge one or two swings and healing ward will heal you almost to full since the breaker guy won't even ding your shield)...

Also outside of the glyph infused torug's users tend to hit like wet noodles.

Chilly-McFreeze

Jamini wrote: »

The opportunity cost for running this is that you do not get ability resource poisons, which is a very large downside in PvP.

Also it's not hard at all to outheal if you aren't getting hit by it constantly. One tick of vigor, colag blood/powerlash/recast of embers, most siphoning skills (siphoning strikes/attacks actually should completely outheal this one its own) , most warden skills (lotus will mitigate most of this, and you have spores/thicket), many templar skills (wave hand, damage gone. Magplar ignores incoming damage), the matriarch heal/healing ward (rolldodge one or two swings and healing ward will heal you almost to full since the breaker guy won't even ding your shield)...

Also outside of the glyph infused torug's users tend to hit like wet noodles.

You could probably outheal anything if you aren't constantly hit. Thing is, this thread is about me now being able to constantly kick you between the legs with unresistable 2.9k. Every weave. In addition to whatever else I usually throw at you.

The opportunity costs for running this is that I still can run my poison on my back bar.

Plus, I don't know what you're doing but my vigor doesn't tick for 3k. Teach me, senpai. Please.

Strider_Roshin

Jamini wrote: »

The opportunity cost for running this is that you do not get ability resource poisons, which is a very large downside in PvP.

Also it's not hard at all to outheal if you aren't getting hit by it constantly. One tick of vigor, colag blood/powerlash/recast of embers, most siphoning skills (siphoning strikes/attacks actually should completely outheal this one its own) , most warden skills (lotus will mitigate most of this, and you have spores/thicket), many templar skills (wave hand, damage gone. Magplar ignores incoming damage), the matriarch heal/healing ward (rolldodge one or two swings and healing ward will heal you almost to full since the breaker guy won't even ding your shield)...

Also outside of the glyph infused torug's users tend to hit like wet noodles.

This is true. It's more of an issue with Torug's rather than the glyph itself. Not to mention the glyph is mainly useful against blocking and damage shields which don't nearly have enough counters.

Heck I'm amazed, dodge rolling is actually a good defense against this. This calls for a celebration! Pass the drinks!

techprince

Problem seems to be torughs as infused applies to all other enchantments as well. Glyph of Prismatic Onslaught does ridiculous dmg with it.

BraidasNM

techprince wrote: »

Problem seems to be torughs as infused applies to all other enchantments as well. Glyph of Prismatic Onslaught does ridiculous dmg with it.

prismatic seems fair enough as it does nothing on half of players. i think the oblivion/unresistable damage type should just be removed; address shields a different way. oblivion affects more than just shields

buttaface

LOL @ "severe balancing issue" hyperbole much? This is already IN THE GAME, few use it, and the PTS is only a small buff.

Look at all the "1vx" trolling shield spammers and troll block tanks lining up during the early PTS for preemptive nerf whine. Just add this to all the "shield breaker OP" threads. I hardly post here, but reading these forums full of obviously self-interested nerf-herding POs and annoys one into posting after awhile.

1. Doesn't bother anything that can dodge, LOS or stealth. Anything with decent heals will laugh it off. "OMG, HE KILLED ME IN SIX SECONDS!!!!!!!" ...said no one sane in a game where people kill you in 2 seconds all day with a charged up heavy/wreck/ult/proc. Or with flare/javelin/ soul or jesus beam in the same time... or frag wrath... or with... dozens of other spikes, universally CRIPPLED with the attempt to add this into them (LOL at "this can be woven in" what a lie). So which are you OP and the other posters here, sorc or block tank who likes to stand impervious in 5 people attacking? OP also exaggerates the dmg to make their case. I bet if we looked at the tooltips of half or more of the posters in this thread we would see two things a) insanely high tooltips on skills like frags (with innate cc to boot) far far higher than 5k dps and b) pitifully low health (or block tanks). Also shield stacking likely.

2. Lots of opportunity cost to using it, sacrifices burst dps or better defense set. I made a torug/infused/ set a couple weeks ago when bored, and it's... OK, nothing special, a viable option for tankier non block builds, not good in pve. Was looking forward to trying it after this change, but guess the criers will do everything to keep their easy cheesy proxy det ult spam meta in place. You see, they can't implement this into their status quo build because of tradeoffs, they would have to dig into their absurdly high tooltips to do it, hence it can -never- be allowed to happen that other people could use it against them. God forbid they have dedicated healers or... perish the thought... slot a heal... or... sacrilege... move out of their mines and play like everyone else not shield stacking has to play.

3. With this and shieldbreaker in the game RIGHT NOW, I know of at least one active PvP guild REROLLING all of its characters into sorcs to spam proxy det and the other ranged sorc spam. God forbid there was a counter to all sorc rolling groups. Is this it? No way to know, but they sure are scared. There NEEDS to be a counter to that desperately, this or otherwise.

4. Finally, there are FAR better options for a focus BG group than this. Use your imagination and think AOE.

Good luck with the fervent nerfherding on this "severe balancing issue" ROFL, will be interesting to see if it pans out in your favor.

Yuke

eh, ok.

Derra

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Jamini wrote: »

The opportunity cost for running this is that you do not get ability resource poisons, which is a very large downside in PvP.

Also it's not hard at all to outheal if you aren't getting hit by it constantly. One tick of vigor, colag blood/powerlash/recast of embers, most siphoning skills (siphoning strikes/attacks actually should completely outheal this one its own) , most warden skills (lotus will mitigate most of this, and you have spores/thicket), many templar skills (wave hand, damage gone. Magplar ignores incoming damage), the matriarch heal/healing ward (rolldodge one or two swings and healing ward will heal you almost to full since the breaker guy won't even ding your shield)...

Also outside of the glyph infused torug's users tend to hit like wet noodles.

This is true. It's more of an issue with Torug's rather than the glyph itself. Not to mention the glyph is mainly useful against blocking and damage shields which don't nearly have enough counters.

Heck I'm amazed, dodge rolling is actually a good defense against this. This calls for a celebration! Pass the drinks!

I´m running a torugs build occasionally on live.

You know what build it does best against? Stamina nightblades.
It will be even better with torugs infused oblivion when this goes live. Ambush? 3k dmg. Not instant dodgeroll? 3k dmg.

The procc alone deals more dps than a stamblades hps.

You´re going to have a bad time assuming this is going to benefit medium armor users in some way. Stop assuming everyone is on an agenda.
I´m the first to admit i´ve already got my gear crafted now to instantly use it on a builds that can counter it when this goes live. I will make live of people without this hell.