Severe balancing issue regarding Torug's Pact changes/fixes and Oblivion Damage

Riluanesht_Keakian

del

Mondini

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I disagree with everyone whom says a 1-2k DMG is playable.

The amount of healing both over time and burst is so high 1-2k is worthless.

3-4k is balanced - every weave is not.

After it's fixed it'll be powerful no doubt.

Just saying that oblivion glyph would be worthless if cut in half - just like how fire frost and Lightning Glyphs are worthless now

The assumption that fire frost and lightning enchants are worthless currently is simply wrong.

I have never had any of those in a death recap.

I can't see giving up resource poisons/Oblivion/wpn spell DMG glyph/prismatic for Lightning fire or Frost

If you're talking pve well then maybe? I dunno, I PvP

i've had 7k crits with lightning enchant in pvp. far from worthless.

Xsorus

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

So whining has made yet another set useless *grin*

This is basically what happened. There are multiple highly upvoted posts in this thread that specifically mention that it's the oblivion enchant, not the set Torug's that needs changing.

If the current PTS changes go live, everyone with Torug's is going to have new useless gear and oblivion will still be getting spamming every 1.5-2 seconds.

Here's my problem with that

Multiple people whined last patch about how we were all going to die from Torugs/Knights/Infused Heavy Attack Users

Which didn't happen... Know why? Because most people who whine have ZERO clue about actual game play issues. There were a sea of whines about how overpowered the old Maelstrom two hander enchant was going to be, So they cut it in half because people were like 10k damage enchant is super overpowered!!!! when they didn't realize that it's cut to 50% automatically in pvp making it a 5k over 5 seconds, So now its like 2k over 5 seconds, Making it worse then having an actual damage enchant on your weapon.

Its the same thing with Eye of the Storm, Every idiot and their brother whined that the first iteration of the skill was super underpowered and no one was going to use it. I was the only one that said hey no..Its a 10 second duration PBAE that follows you, Its going to be super powerful.... But nope, so it got overbuffed to insane levels because of it.

People over-react and don't pay attention to whats going on in game and it annoys me that yet another set got gutted.

Riluanesht_Keakian

del

glavius

Mondini wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I disagree with everyone whom says a 1-2k DMG is playable.

The amount of healing both over time and burst is so high 1-2k is worthless.

3-4k is balanced - every weave is not.

After it's fixed it'll be powerful no doubt.

Just saying that oblivion glyph would be worthless if cut in half - just like how fire frost and Lightning Glyphs are worthless now

The assumption that fire frost and lightning enchants are worthless currently is simply wrong.

I have never had any of those in a death recap.

I can't see giving up resource poisons/Oblivion/wpn spell DMG glyph/prismatic for Lightning fire or Frost

If you're talking pve well then maybe? I dunno, I PvP

i've had 7k crits with lightning enchant in pvp. far from worthless.

Kinda doubt that since it is halved by battlespirit... Even without battlespirit you would be hard pressed to reach those numbers unless you ran torugs+infused+high crit modifier.

Thogard

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

I stand corrected, I think my math was wrong. But I think your's is too - I was almost certain that the the buff to the potency of enchants that infused and torug's add was additive, not multiplicative, which is how you calculated it.. If it's additive, than the numbers would be smaller and Torug's wouldn't be affected by the buff to infused. Do you or anyone else know for sure? I'll look it up and try to find out.

Regardless, Torug's will just be a bad infused next patch in its current PTS, while live it has tangible benefits. If Torug's was buffed to give a 60% increase in enchantment potency, that would be:
1. 215 wep/spell dmg unbuffed, 258 buffed with major sorc/brut. with easier uptime on a increase weapon damage glpyh
2. A noticeably strong damage (fire/ice/etc.) enchant that still will only proc every other light attack, just as it would if you only were using infused

(Using additive not multiplicative)

I think a change like that would be enough to make it attractive again. The dmg buff would still require constant proccing and be less than julianos/hundings, and enchant wont hit proc-set hard, and 2-4 piece bonuses aren't anything amazing even with this buff.

I am 100% certain that it's multiplicative. I want to stress again that this is a set that I use on my main in PvP. The oblivion dmg hits for 2964 on live. every time. Watch the video i posted you will see that number floating up. 1900 * (1.2+1.3) = 2750, but 1900 * 1.2 * 1.3 = 2964. Multiplicative.

Regardless, after the patch goes live, my setup using Torug's will be more powerful than it currently is. Youre right, though, that the comparative advantage of using Torug's isn't as high as it used to be, but it's still pretty high if you can get more than 1 obliv dmg proc per 3 seconds... Which, again, is very possible with certain DW skills or bow skills.

Add me in game, @thogard, and i can show you some of the cool things the set can do. It's a really fun set to play with as long as you have a good connection. It's not an easy set to use, but the best dueler in the game AFAIK uses it too.

Waffennacht

glavius wrote: »

Mondini wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Derra wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

I disagree with everyone whom says a 1-2k DMG is playable.

The amount of healing both over time and burst is so high 1-2k is worthless.

3-4k is balanced - every weave is not.

After it's fixed it'll be powerful no doubt.

Just saying that oblivion glyph would be worthless if cut in half - just like how fire frost and Lightning Glyphs are worthless now

The assumption that fire frost and lightning enchants are worthless currently is simply wrong.

I have never had any of those in a death recap.

I can't see giving up resource poisons/Oblivion/wpn spell DMG glyph/prismatic for Lightning fire or Frost

If you're talking pve well then maybe? I dunno, I PvP

i've had 7k crits with lightning enchant in pvp. far from worthless.

Kinda doubt that since it is halved by battlespirit... Even without battlespirit you would be hard pressed to reach those numbers unless you ran torugs+infused+high crit modifier.

And your opponent is using a PvE build...

GreenSoup2HoT

Xsorus wrote: »

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

So whining has made yet another set useless *grin*

This is basically what happened. There are multiple highly upvoted posts in this thread that specifically mention that it's the oblivion enchant, not the set Torug's that needs changing.

If the current PTS changes go live, everyone with Torug's is going to have new useless gear and oblivion will still be getting spamming every 1.5-2 seconds.

Here's my problem with that

Multiple people whined last patch about how we were all going to die from Torugs/Knights/Infused Heavy Attack Users

Which didn't happen... Know why? Because most people who whine have ZERO clue about actual game play issues. There were a sea of whines about how overpowered the old Maelstrom two hander enchant was going to be, So they cut it in half because people were like 10k damage enchant is super overpowered!!!! when they didn't realize that it's cut to 50% automatically in pvp making it a 5k over 5 seconds, So now its like 2k over 5 seconds, Making it worse then having an actual damage enchant on your weapon.

Its the same thing with Eye of the Storm, Every idiot and their brother whined that the first iteration of the skill was super underpowered and no one was going to use it. I was the only one that said hey no..Its a 10 second duration PBAE that follows you, Its going to be super powerful.... But nope, so it got overbuffed to insane levels because of it.

People over-react and don't pay attention to whats going on in game and it annoys me that yet another set got gutted.

This.. so much this. Been saying that part about destro ult ever since it went live. Zenimax has still no clue.

Maryal

Xsorus wrote: »

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

So whining has made yet another set useless *grin*

This is basically what happened. There are multiple highly upvoted posts in this thread that specifically mention that it's the oblivion enchant, not the set Torug's that needs changing.

If the current PTS changes go live, everyone with Torug's is going to have new useless gear and oblivion will still be getting spamming every 1.5-2 seconds.

Here's my problem with that

Multiple people whined last patch about how we were all going to die from Torugs/Knights/Infused Heavy Attack Users

Which didn't happen... Know why? Because most people who whine have ZERO clue about actual game play issues. There were a sea of whines about how overpowered the old Maelstrom two hander enchant was going to be, So they cut it in half because people were like 10k damage enchant is super overpowered!!!! when they didn't realize that it's cut to 50% automatically in pvp making it a 5k over 5 seconds, So now its like 2k over 5 seconds, Making it worse then having an actual damage enchant on your weapon.

Its the same thing with Eye of the Storm, Every idiot and their brother whined that the first iteration of the skill was super underpowered and no one was going to use it. I was the only one that said hey no..Its a 10 second duration PBAE that follows you, Its going to be super powerful.... But nope, so it got overbuffed to insane levels because of it.

People over-react and don't pay attention to whats going on in game and it annoys me that yet another set got gutted.

I agree, except I don't think Torug's 'got gutted' ... but ... I suppose whether it did or didn't is based on a personal perspective. If you can, test it out on PTS. I did, and IMO, the change really isn't that bad.

Riluanesht_Keakian

del

Derra

Xsorus wrote: »

TheMrAfrica wrote: »

Xsorus wrote: »

So whining has made yet another set useless *grin*

This is basically what happened. There are multiple highly upvoted posts in this thread that specifically mention that it's the oblivion enchant, not the set Torug's that needs changing.

If the current PTS changes go live, everyone with Torug's is going to have new useless gear and oblivion will still be getting spamming every 1.5-2 seconds.

Here's my problem with that

Multiple people whined last patch about how we were all going to die from Torugs/Knights/Infused Heavy Attack Users

Which didn't happen... Know why? Because most people who whine have ZERO clue about actual game play issues.

Because it got nerfed by 25% that´s why.

There´s always a fine line balancing things like free non resource dependant dmg. It simply tipped over from being good to being bad.
Bad things don´t get used in (semi) competetive environment like bgs. Which is good bc free dmg shouldn´t be a thing in a game that supposedly focuses around resourcemanagement.

Also lol that you´re still get hung up on eots. People literally only talked about pve and raiding dmg potential of the ultimate and compared it to meteor. The stationary morph is competetive with meteor in it´s current form.
In the first unbuffed version of the skill it would have seen no use ever.
Nobody ever talked about the eye morph when talking about dmg potential.

But please continue in your selfdelusion of being the allmighty god of theorycrafting miles ahead of any mortal voicing their concerns about (perceived) balancing issues.

Olupajmibanan

I don't understand one thing. People are complaining about shielding sorcs since the Big Bang. Shield breaker was working only against magsorcs and by wearing it you were weak against other classes. Now you finally get a thing to deal with shielding sorcs while still being effective on others and you want it gone?

I cry that I can't break through magsorc shields, than I cry that I can break through and I don't want it. Great logic.

Feanor

How many people actually bothered with farming Knight Slayer given the issues Battlegrounds had for 8 weeks? I rather think that's the reason you didn't see it widespread and not the set being trash.

Dorrino

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

Shield breaker was working only against magsorcs and by wearing it you were weak against other classes. .

Magblades and magwardens as well.

Thogard

Feanor wrote: »

How many people actually bothered with farming Knight Slayer given the issues Battlegrounds had for 8 weeks? I rather think that's the reason you didn't see it widespread and not the set being trash.

I did. Knightslayer was crap. I ran a knight slayer + Torug build on Mag DK w/ resto and the DPS was depressing.
Edit: on live

ccfeeling

Just delete Torug set , just delete all other sets , we all wear the same set , no more unbalance.

Feanor

Thogard wrote: »

Feanor wrote: »

How many people actually bothered with farming Knight Slayer given the issues Battlegrounds had for 8 weeks? I rather think that's the reason you didn't see it widespread and not the set being trash.

I did. Knightslayer was crap. I ran a knight slayer + Torug build on Mag DK w/ resto and the DPS was depressing.
Edit: on live

DPS is irrelevant. Burst is what counts. In that regard magDK is maybe not most suited for the set. Dunno, I didn't test it.

Faulgor

Man, it's not like Enchanter builds were doing top DPS in PvE. There are enough drawbacks, mainly that you forfeit a decent 5 piece set and DMG enchantments are useless for AoE situations. I was so looking forward to the buffs to infused for my magDK Enchanter build, but the nerf to Torug's Pact eats that all up again.

It seems the best way to go is to just use a spell dmg enchantment with infused to get 100% uptime, no need for Torug's or a dedicated enchantment build. Any build can do that. Also works splendid for AoE situations. DMG enchantments are useless compared to that, and so is the cooldown reduction of Torug's Pact.

BohnT

Faulgor wrote: »

Man, it's not like Enchanter builds were doing top DPS in PvE. There are enough drawbacks, mainly that you forfeit a decent 5 piece set and DMG enchantments are useless for AoE situations. I was so looking forward to the buffs to infused for my magDK Enchanter build, but the nerf to Torug's Pact eats that all up again.

It seems the best way to go is to just use a spell dmg enchantment with infused to get 100% uptime, no need for Torug's or a dedicated enchantment build. Any build can do that. Also works splendid for AoE situations. DMG enchantments are useless compared to that, and so is the cooldown reduction of Torug's Pact.

This post is completely pvp focused please respect that and stop pve talking.
You may not pvp a lot but others do and we want a great game just like you and this upcoming change will absolutely wreck pvp for 3 months

Faulgor

BohnT wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Man, it's not like Enchanter builds were doing top DPS in PvE. There are enough drawbacks, mainly that you forfeit a decent 5 piece set and DMG enchantments are useless for AoE situations. I was so looking forward to the buffs to infused for my magDK Enchanter build, but the nerf to Torug's Pact eats that all up again.

It seems the best way to go is to just use a spell dmg enchantment with infused to get 100% uptime, no need for Torug's or a dedicated enchantment build. Any build can do that. Also works splendid for AoE situations. DMG enchantments are useless compared to that, and so is the cooldown reduction of Torug's Pact.

This post is completely pvp focused please respect that and stop pve talking.
You may not pvp a lot but others do and we want a great game just like you and this upcoming change will absolutely wreck pvp for 3 months

We're talking about Torug's Pact, changes to which effect all game environments.
And I haven't seen anyone complaining about Fire/Shock/Frost enchantments in PvP. This is exclusive to the Oblivion damage enchantment, which is not used in PvE at all.

Feanor

Faulgor wrote: »

BohnT wrote: »

Faulgor wrote: »

Man, it's not like Enchanter builds were doing top DPS in PvE. There are enough drawbacks, mainly that you forfeit a decent 5 piece set and DMG enchantments are useless for AoE situations. I was so looking forward to the buffs to infused for my magDK Enchanter build, but the nerf to Torug's Pact eats that all up again.

It seems the best way to go is to just use a spell dmg enchantment with infused to get 100% uptime, no need for Torug's or a dedicated enchantment build. Any build can do that. Also works splendid for AoE situations. DMG enchantments are useless compared to that, and so is the cooldown reduction of Torug's Pact.

This post is completely pvp focused please respect that and stop pve talking.
You may not pvp a lot but others do and we want a great game just like you and this upcoming change will absolutely wreck pvp for 3 months

We're talking about Torug's Pact, changes to which effect all game environments.
And I haven't seen anyone complaining about Fire/Shock/Frost enchantments in PvP. This is exclusive to the Oblivion damage enchantment, which is not used in PvE at all.

Hence why everyone was saying that the glyph should be changed instead of Torugs Pact. ZOS, as usual, knew better.

Teridaxus

Welp no mention about the new upcomming cancer meta in that balance preview thread.
Normally i avoid metas but as tank i should use infused anyway, might as well use oblivion as enchant then.

GreenSoup2HoT

Teridaxus wrote: »

Welp no mention about the new upcomming cancer meta in that balance preview thread.
Normally i avoid metas but as tank i should use infused anyway, might as well use oblivion as enchant then.

Yeah infused on 1h/s gets more value out of all traits since its not cut in half. Its a pretty nice buff to duel-wielders also. I'm honestly pretty excited. Oblivion damage won't be an issue.. maybe for sorcs who refuse to slot some healing aside from healing ward. A Toraqs infused user will be quiet strong but not blatantly overpowered, since its a 1.4 second cooldown instead of the previous 1 second.

nekura

Feanor wrote: »

How many people actually bothered with farming Knight Slayer given the issues Battlegrounds had for 8 weeks? I rather think that's the reason you didn't see it widespread and not the set being trash.

I bought it. I tried both Knight Slayer / Torug and Knight Slayer / Shield Breaker as a zerg bow build. Even at the original value it wouldn't be worth running.

STEVIL

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I cry that I can't break through magsorc shields, than I cry that I can break through and I don't want it. Great logic.

Well the arguments here are not about how well it goes thru shields but how well it goes thru everything else.

IF OD etc were only limited tyo being a strong shield-stack-killer you would hear fewer yells.

But with this current set of rules you seem to have the following:
OD enchants ignore battle spirit and thus in PVP do more base damage than standard damage enchants and ignore resistance and shields, making them hands down best for slam damage.
Torugs and infused get weird now with recent PTS changes as far as how they work together producing results that are not that worthwhile - as a part of the change to address OD issues.

To me the root core is simple: battle spirit should affect OD just like everything else.

To me OD is not an enchant that "ignores mitigation" at its core but an enchant that is already "pre-mitigated" by doing less damage straight up than other enchants. This is contrasted by doing its damage straight thru. it is a trade off that pays off when the enemy has shields or high mitigation levels. But when everything else gets cut in half due to BS, that trade-off vanishes.

So to me first thing that has to happen is make OD fall under BS. Then see if there are other issues that need to be dealt with.

That would mean that in both PVE and PVP the OD enchants have the same trade-offs - useful in same cases and a backstep in others.

Waffennacht

STEVIL wrote: »

Olupajmibanan wrote: »

I cry that I can't break through magsorc shields, than I cry that I can break through and I don't want it. Great logic.

Well the arguments here are not about how well it goes thru shields but how well it goes thru everything else.

IF OD etc were only limited tyo being a strong shield-stack-killer you would hear fewer yells.

But with this current set of rules you seem to have the following:
OD enchants ignore battle spirit and thus in PVP do more base damage than standard damage enchants and ignore resistance and shields, making them hands down best for slam damage.
Torugs and infused get weird now with recent PTS changes as far as how they work together producing results that are not that worthwhile - as a part of the change to address OD issues.

To me the root core is simple: battle spirit should affect OD just like everything else.

To me OD is not an enchant that "ignores mitigation" at its core but an enchant that is already "pre-mitigated" by doing less damage straight up than other enchants. This is contrasted by doing its damage straight thru. it is a trade off that pays off when the enemy has shields or high mitigation levels. But when everything else gets cut in half due to BS, that trade-off vanishes.

So to me first thing that has to happen is make OD fall under BS. Then see if there are other issues that need to be dealt with.

That would mean that in both PVE and PVP the OD enchants have the same trade-offs - useful in same cases and a backstep in others.

How the heck would a 950-1.3k DMG enchantment, even if it goes through mitigation be worth anything?

Healing Ward's heal component heals for more than that value - completely negating the use of Oblivion Damage glyphs.

It has to deal more damage than the abilities it exists to counter

glavius

Yea, while it should reduced it should not be halved. It does already have less damage than the other enchants, and while it does ignore resists, it also doesn't apply status effects.

STEVIL

Waffennacht wrote: »

How the heck would a 950-1.3k DMG enchantment, even if it goes through mitigation be worth anything?

Healing Ward's heal component heals for more than that value - completely negating the use of Oblivion Damage glyphs.

It has to deal more damage than the abilities it exists to counter

glavius wrote: »

Yea, while it should reduced it should not be halved. It does already have less damage than the other enchants, and while it does ignore resists, it also doesn't apply status effects.

Ok so, outside of PVP, on the PVE side, where shielded adversaries are rare, these same aspects already exists.

OD does less tootip damage than fire glyph and does not proc burning and iirc cannot crit and has no racial or class "damage type" boosts.... and so it basically turns out to be a "pre-mitigated" effects which will help you (compared to fire say) in cases where the enemy has very high mitigation but otherwise be of less use.

its a balance trade-off

But once you move to PVP, fire is cut in half and OD is not so that basic same level of "balance trade-off" is destroyed and on top of that the number of shielded enemies goes way way up.

See the problem?

As for the bold, no sorry but a single attack add-on does not have to beat the effect of any given heal effect. A possible exception could be some channels but certainly not an enchant that just tags along with other attacks adding damage.

thats just unfathomable?

or do you really believe that every enchant has to be able to after mitigation and defenses surpass the healing rate of enemies?

Waffennacht

STEVIL wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How the heck would a 950-1.3k DMG enchantment, even if it goes through mitigation be worth anything?

Healing Ward's heal component heals for more than that value - completely negating the use of Oblivion Damage glyphs.

It has to deal more damage than the abilities it exists to counter

glavius wrote: »

Yea, while it should reduced it should not be halved. It does already have less damage than the other enchants, and while it does ignore resists, it also doesn't apply status effects.

Ok so, outside of PVP, on the PVE side, where shielded adversaries are rare, these same aspects already exists.

OD does less tootip damage than fire glyph and does not proc burning and iirc cannot crit and has no racial or class "damage type" boosts.... and so it basically turns out to be a "pre-mitigated" effects which will help you (compared to fire say) in cases where the enemy has very high mitigation but otherwise be of less use.

its a balance trade-off

But once you move to PVP, fire is cut in half and OD is not so that basic same level of "balance trade-off" is destroyed and on top of that the number of shielded enemies goes way way up.

See the problem?

As for the bold, no sorry but a single attack add-on does not have to beat the effect of any given heal effect. A possible exception could be some channels but certainly not an enchant that just tags along with other attacks adding damage.

thats just unfathomable?

or do you really believe that every enchant has to be able to after mitigation and defenses surpass the healing rate of enemies?

If they want to be used, yes.

There is absolutely no reason to ever pick fire frost or lightning enchantments in PvP over Disease, Oblivion, WpnSpll DMG or poisons.

If anything you make a good argument as to why the three elemental enchantments need a buff.

And who the heck uses Oblivion in PvE??? It's sole existence is for PvP as a counter to the vast magnitude of mitigation.

You also failed to address how this would ABSOLUTELY make Oblivion Damage worthless in PvP, and therefore the whole game

Edit: to show the absolutely horrid idea of reducing Oblivion glyphs, let's take a full on Torug infused user - he now dedicated a whole armor set and weapon trait to gain 1300 unmitigated damage every other weave, or 750 dps in PvP....

Now let's compare that to weapon spell DMG glyph, which gives 100% up time (or darn near) of 500ish wpn spell damage on the same set up.

Without any buffs the Oblivion glyph will do a measly 950 DMG every 5 seconds.... That's worse than worthless

STEVIL

Waffennacht wrote: »

STEVIL wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

How the heck would a 950-1.3k DMG enchantment, even if it goes through mitigation be worth anything?

Healing Ward's heal component heals for more than that value - completely negating the use of Oblivion Damage glyphs.

It has to deal more damage than the abilities it exists to counter

glavius wrote: »

Yea, while it should reduced it should not be halved. It does already have less damage than the other enchants, and while it does ignore resists, it also doesn't apply status effects.

Ok so, outside of PVP, on the PVE side, where shielded adversaries are rare, these same aspects already exists.

OD does less tootip damage than fire glyph and does not proc burning and iirc cannot crit and has no racial or class "damage type" boosts.... and so it basically turns out to be a "pre-mitigated" effects which will help you (compared to fire say) in cases where the enemy has very high mitigation but otherwise be of less use.

its a balance trade-off

But once you move to PVP, fire is cut in half and OD is not so that basic same level of "balance trade-off" is destroyed and on top of that the number of shielded enemies goes way way up.

See the problem?

As for the bold, no sorry but a single attack add-on does not have to beat the effect of any given heal effect. A possible exception could be some channels but certainly not an enchant that just tags along with other attacks adding damage.

thats just unfathomable?

or do you really believe that every enchant has to be able to after mitigation and defenses surpass the healing rate of enemies?

If they want to be used, yes.

There is absolutely no reason to ever pick fire frost or lightning enchantments in PvP over Disease, Oblivion, WpnSpll DMG or poisons.

If anything you make a good argument as to why the three elemental enchantments need a buff.

And who the heck uses Oblivion in PvE??? It's sole existence is for PvP as a counter to the vast magnitude of mitigation.

You also failed to address how this would ABSOLUTELY make Oblivion Damage worthless in PvP, and therefore the whole game

Edit: to show the absolutely horrid idea of reducing Oblivion glyphs, let's take a full on Torug infused user - he now dedicated a whole armor set and weapon trait to gain 1300 unmitigated damage every other weave, or 750 dps in PvP....

Now let's compare that to weapon spell DMG glyph, which gives 100% up time (or darn near) of 500ish wpn spell damage on the same set up.

Without any buffs the Oblivion glyph will do a measly 950 DMG every 5 seconds.... That's worse than worthless

Sorry but no - it has not been shown that effective 750 increase in dps in pvp is worthless. So what has not been shown does not need to be addressed beyond that. As stated before every "free added damage" bit does not in and of itself have to exceed the healing capability of the enemy - that was an unfounded claim.

Second, as long as you keep comparing unmitigated, unshielded attacks vs the EFFECTIVE damage of OD, you are being misleading. if 500 spelldam equates to say 1500 extra damage per second from say a dot, an attack and a weave BEFORE shields or BEFORE mitigation then you have no basis whatsoever to claim that means it is so superior to use spldam enchants over OD as to be worthless.