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Dive needs to be dodgeable
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭.grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
Good thing is that dodge is the main defense of MA builds. It takes 5p of shieldbreaker to hardcounter shields. Where is my hardcounter spammy-skill that goes through shields? And yes, I know about oblivion dmg, that one goes through block and everything else too and I already have it more times on my death recap than not.
As for frags.. frags usually have a cast time or cost much more than that bird. Except it procs. Then it's still dodgeable. What else counters dodge? Radiant Oppression. That one is a channel. So why not give dive a cast/ channel time and let it stay undodgeable? Or make it faster and dodgeable. I'd prefer the latter.
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Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.
Why AC when your dw and cliff racer goes through dodge.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...6 -
HiImRex✭✭✭✭✭So many straw men from both sides in this thread.
Let me be bold and say CR doesn't need to be dodgable, but I want it to be. Here's why;
Magdens aren't weak in pvp, though I don't think they are necessarily OP. Shalk fletcher CR is a solid offensive foundation, ice fort lotus netch are great buffs to build a back bar around.
Fletcher is a very hard hitting dot, esp every other cast. Shalk is a funny skill, it's weaknesses are also its strengths. It's got a delay and has to be aimed manually. Delay helps line up big burst. And its AOE stun and damage makes it an effective area denial ability.
What makes this all work really well are birds. Hits hard, costs little, instant cast. They are undodgaeable so you have to eat the damage. But that's fine for builds that are meant to eat damage.
Shields and heals are a great counter to wardens. It's nothing special really just like any other fight, eat damage with shield or heals, counter attack.
Block is only an ok counter to the rotation of fletcher, shalk/CR cycle because the limited mobility while blocking keeps you in shalk area while sprinting or dodgerolling away from shalk makes you eat birds. It works though esp if you are a s/b DK who can tank and then regen resources through ultimate and sustain.
But a high burst medium stam has a hard time dealing with birds. You have to dodge the shalk, while healing through/blocking birds. Meanwhile fletcher is eating you alive and probably proving skoria.
If you get in a burst combo and he survives through the CC you have to contend with healing ward and possibly a healing ulti, forest or resto probably. Fletcher still eating you with skoria, then back to blocking / healing birds while running away from shalk.
If birds were dodgeable it wouldn't really hurt the warden against heavy stam/mag classes who don't roll much and are built to eat the damage already. It would make match ups against medium stam more even. Hence I want but don't need bird to be dodgeable. This game doesn't need to be RPS.2 -
Toc de Malsvi✭✭✭✭✭
✭
This is just BS. Magicka Wardens have amazing mobility.Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..
Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it
The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.
I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)
Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.
Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it
Its not, stop that trash talking. I play it exusively since morrowind and its way way harder than any other class for 1vX except magicka NB.
U procblades seems really pissed lol
It has a higher skill cap than most, but it is certainly not weak. Wrecking groups as a Warden is stupid easy with scorch. And the undodgeable dive makes securing kills very easy since no one can play defensively against you. No one in medium armor that is.
Also I'm certainly not a proc blade.
Do u have a magden or know that from others? I can agree, if the enemys dont see me (e.g., fighting an other guy in BGS) and I come in with scorch and target 1 with dive into CS combo, yes - he will die. So may 1 other if he was already low and get hit by sorch.
The thing is, going in on a procblade on 80% target will kill it also, or a templar or whatever. Ifu as a magden are targeted by 2 players I wanna see how u kill them so easily. Ofc , bad players are easy kills, but they are on any class.
Again, the max magicka route is very similar to magicka NB. How many do u see 1vX?
Magicka warden has very bad mobility and are *** by snares, its very hard to land deep fissure if u are focused by 2 players , 80% snared and they are rolling / walking all the timé through u.
Listen, I understand, dive is "cancer" if u already fighting other people, but so are pricblades or 3 sorcs spamming curse. In a 1v1 u dont spam dive as a magden or u instakilled if u dont have ur shield up. OFC, talking about the necro route , there are other ways to build the magden, but they dont have that huge burst.
Major Expedition
Snare's reduced in effectiveness by 15%.
Ability to gap close to an ally
If you think they have bad mobility you are ignorant of the class or playing it very poorly.Legendary Archer of ValenwoodBosmer Dragon Knight Archer. XBox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Nightblade Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Sorcerer Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Bosmer Warden Archer. Xbox One. (Flawless Conqueror Bow/Bow)Templar's are evil..4 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So many straw men from both sides in this thread.
Let me be bold and say CR doesn't need to be dodgable, but I want it to be. Here's why;
Magdens aren't weak in pvp, though I don't think they are necessarily OP. Shalk fletcher CR is a solid offensive foundation, ice fort lotus netch are great buffs to build a back bar around.
Fletcher is a very hard hitting dot, esp every other cast. Shalk is a funny skill, it's weaknesses are also its strengths. It's got a delay and has to be aimed manually. Delay helps line up big burst. And its AOE stun and damage makes it an effective area denial ability.
What makes this all work really well are birds. Hits hard, costs little, instant cast. They are undodgaeable so you have to eat the damage. But that's fine for builds that are meant to eat damage.
Shields and heals are a great counter to wardens. It's nothing special really just like any other fight, eat damage with shield or heals, counter attack.
Block is only an ok counter to the rotation of fletcher, shalk/CR cycle because the limited mobility while blocking keeps you in shalk area while sprinting or dodgerolling away from shalk makes you eat birds. It works though esp if you are a s/b DK who can tank and then regen resources through ultimate and sustain.
But a high burst medium stam has a hard time dealing with birds. You have to dodge the shalk, while healing through/blocking birds. Meanwhile fletcher is eating you alive and probably proving skoria.
If you get in a burst combo and he survives through the CC you have to contend with healing ward and possibly a healing ulti, forest or resto probably. Fletcher still eating you with skoria, then back to blocking / healing birds while running away from shalk.
If birds were dodgeable it wouldn't really hurt the warden against heavy stam/mag classes who don't roll much and are built to eat the damage already. It would make match ups against medium stam more even. Hence I want but don't need bird to be dodgeable. This game doesn't need to be RPS.
Only problem with this is that it doesn't proc skoria0 -
DemonDruaga✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.
My oponents never have the time to spam cast abilities on me in a 1v1 or 1v2.
If i don't pressure them it is clear that I will loose at some point.
I am the one leading the fight, forcing my enemy to heal, cloak, shield what ever he will need to survive.
Your oponent didn't even weave light attacks, so what where you doing?Ardor // Dunkelsicht // Pakt1 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.
Why AC when your dw and cliff racer goes through dodge.
Because extra damage and ultimate generation and procing weapon enchants are things good players generally do.
Besides, you have no idea if the opponent was a dual wield to begin with. Not to mention a dual wield Warden should be using Deep fissure, something opponent either did not do or isn't skilled enough to connect.
The screenshot, like most death recaps, add no understanding because there is no context. It's just there to support people's agenda.3 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.
Why AC when your dw and cliff racer goes through dodge.
Because extra damage and ultimate generation and procing weapon enchants are things good players generally do.
Besides, you have no idea if the opponent was a dual wield to begin with. Not to mention a dual wield Warden should be using Deep fissure, something opponent either did not do or isn't skilled enough to connect.
The screenshot, like most death recaps, add no understanding because there is no context. It's just there to support people's agenda.
Magicka players also DW, and if your opponent is out of melee range you wouldn't expect to see a light attack weave in there.2 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Joy_Division wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.
Why AC when your dw and cliff racer goes through dodge.
Because extra damage and ultimate generation and procing weapon enchants are things good players generally do.
Besides, you have no idea if the opponent was a dual wield to begin with. Not to mention a dual wield Warden should be using Deep fissure, something opponent either did not do or isn't skilled enough to connect.
The screenshot, like most death recaps, add no understanding because there is no context. It's just there to support people's agenda.
Could of been out of fissure range and spamming that bird so its full range in pvp, which is a lot.
Make use of the 15% extra magicka morph damage because stamina morph doesn't get anything... lmao
The guy who died should of just blocked with his 2h and stood there, he may have been able to survive getting 4 shot then without being able to do anything. Maybe 6-7 shot? Before you lose all your stam.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
C0ndor✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.
Why AC when your dw and cliff racer goes through dodge.
Because extra damage and ultimate generation and procing weapon enchants are things good players generally do.
Besides, you have no idea if the opponent was a dual wield to begin with. Not to mention a dual wield Warden should be using Deep fissure, something opponent either did not do or isn't skilled enough to connect.
The screenshot, like most death recaps, add no understanding because there is no context. It's just there to support people's agenda.
Could of been out of fissure range and spamming that bird so its full range in pvp, which is a lot.
Make use of the 15% extra magicka morph damage because stamina morph doesn't get anything... lmao
The guy who died should of just blocked with his 2h and stood there, he may have been able to survive getting 4 shot then without being able to do anything. Maybe 6-7 shot? Before you lose all your stam.
Someone already answered hereDemonDruaga wrote: »Joy_Division wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
This looks like you got killed while AFK. Your single opponent didn't even animation cancel.
My oponents never have the time to spam cast abilities on me in a 1v1 or 1v2.
If i don't pressure them it is clear that I will loose at some point.
I am the one leading the fight, forcing my enemy to heal, cloak, shield what ever he will need to survive.
Your oponent didn't even weave light attacks, so what where you doing?0 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭grim_tactics wrote: »
If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Seems like you took this screenshot just to selectively confirm your bias against the undodgable mechanic.. its not evidence at all.
4 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
I think dodge would be fine if evade wasn't in the picture.. at least dodge needs to be manually done and evade is just passive defense that is not earned by the player.. its complete RNG.
I've had my Bloodthirst and ballista chain evaded by the RNG chance.. its a very sketchy and passive mechanic.0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭TheBonesXXX wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
I think dodge would be fine if evade wasn't in the picture.. at least dodge needs to be manually done and evade is just passive defense that is not earned by the player.. its complete RNG.
I've had my Bloodthirst and ballista chain evaded by the RNG chance.. its a very sketchy and passive mechanic.
I've never liked the RNG dodge mechanic. I'm also am not a fan of the plethora of undodgeable attacks in this game. The only abilities that should be undodgeable are ground AoEs.
I'd happily see evasion removed from this game, but dodge rolling needs to be made viable if they were to remove it.0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
I think dodge would be fine if evade wasn't in the picture.. at least dodge needs to be manually done and evade is just passive defense that is not earned by the player.. its complete RNG.
I've had my Bloodthirst and ballista chain evaded by the RNG chance.. its a very sketchy and passive mechanic.
I've never liked the RNG dodge mechanic. I'm also am not a fan of the plethora of undodgeable attacks in this game. The only abilities that should be undodgeable are ground AoEs.
I'd happily see evasion removed from this game, but dodge rolling needs to be made viable if they were to remove it.
How would they make it viable when a lot of skills go through dodge now?
Theres also the cost increase to account for.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
I think dodge would be fine if evade wasn't in the picture.. at least dodge needs to be manually done and evade is just passive defense that is not earned by the player.. its complete RNG.
I've had my Bloodthirst and ballista chain evaded by the RNG chance.. its a very sketchy and passive mechanic.
I've never liked the RNG dodge mechanic. I'm also am not a fan of the plethora of undodgeable attacks in this game. The only abilities that should be undodgeable are ground AoEs.
I'd happily see evasion removed from this game, but dodge rolling needs to be made viable if they were to remove it.
How would they make it viable when a lot of skills go through dodge now?
Theres also the cost increase to account for.
That's what I'm getting at. If they made it so only ground AoEs are undodgeable then dodge rolling would be once again viable. I also think they should remove the cost increase, but increase the base cost of dodge rolling; and rather than removing stam regen while blocking they should cut it in half, but make blocking cost more stamina; a lot more.
Damage shields should also not gain any defensive benefits from Ironclad, thick skinned, elemental defender, or hardy.
I also want to point out that with the removal of evasion, shuffle should make you immune to snares and roots for the full duration. With that said the duration should be greatly reduced, but increased immensely per medium armor piece.
But hey you guys would be playing my game then if all these things were in place. Instead we have the undodgeable dive, and proc sets. Sigh..0 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
I think dodge would be fine if evade wasn't in the picture.. at least dodge needs to be manually done and evade is just passive defense that is not earned by the player.. its complete RNG.
I've had my Bloodthirst and ballista chain evaded by the RNG chance.. its a very sketchy and passive mechanic.
I've never liked the RNG dodge mechanic. I'm also am not a fan of the plethora of undodgeable attacks in this game. The only abilities that should be undodgeable are ground AoEs.
I'd happily see evasion removed from this game, but dodge rolling needs to be made viable if they were to remove it.Strider_Roshin wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
I think dodge would be fine if evade wasn't in the picture.. at least dodge needs to be manually done and evade is just passive defense that is not earned by the player.. its complete RNG.
I've had my Bloodthirst and ballista chain evaded by the RNG chance.. its a very sketchy and passive mechanic.
I've never liked the RNG dodge mechanic. I'm also am not a fan of the plethora of undodgeable attacks in this game. The only abilities that should be undodgeable are ground AoEs.
I'd happily see evasion removed from this game, but dodge rolling needs to be made viable if they were to remove it.
They used to have them all dodge able and I agree, they need to all go back to being dodge able and reflect able again. But until the goofy mechanics in this game are ironed out I don't want to see my bird touched..
especially when there at some weapon lines that are a cakewalk to use and others at not.. when physical bleed is weaksauce and DW is less used than 2h and s/b.
I also think that the skills from the armor lines should be removed.. but that's just me.
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TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »TheBonesXXX wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »grim_tactics wrote: »If all you can do is block this crap - don't even try to turn and run away. Just accept the fact you're gonna die from the Warden or his friends if you're out numbered and can't LoS.
Kinda like that warden would die if you were the one with friends outnumbering him, eh?
His sustain is high enough to get away and Wardens can be tanky as hell too. Kind of like a Sorc that shield stacks.
I'm saying - an ability that can only be blocked that does that much damage has no place in the game because it's spammable. If they're going to allow this - then go ahead and make it where CFrags can't be dodged and Curse can stack. Bet all of you would lose your minds if that was the case.
They need to fix this on Wardens and make it dodgable. You cant argue that it shouldn't be.
Yes i can. Dodge is way too powerful a defense, and in sore need of something that makes it less foolproof.
That's exactly the reason why ZOS intentionally made dive undodgeable in the firstplace. So there is nothing to "fix".
By the way, frags can be made undodgeable as soon as they lose the knockdown.
I think dodge would be fine if evade wasn't in the picture.. at least dodge needs to be manually done and evade is just passive defense that is not earned by the player.. its complete RNG.
I've had my Bloodthirst and ballista chain evaded by the RNG chance.. its a very sketchy and passive mechanic.
I've never liked the RNG dodge mechanic. I'm also am not a fan of the plethora of undodgeable attacks in this game. The only abilities that should be undodgeable are ground AoEs.
I'd happily see evasion removed from this game, but dodge rolling needs to be made viable if they were to remove it.
How would they make it viable when a lot of skills go through dodge now?
Theres also the cost increase to account for.
Make roll dodge a faster and increase the yards for stamina wearers..
If cloth and plate where to keep normal length of the dodge roll and medium gains length and a half for every 3 dodgerolls they do.. we do two for a foot more and faster..
Increase the immunity by dodge-roll by .3 and get rid of that stupid set while they're at it, they need to prune half the sets in the game make the attacks dodge-able again, just don't touch my bird till it happens.
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dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I'll just say it again: 0% regen while blocking is stupid. A better solution would be to lower the actual benefit of block, and reduce the regeneration amount by percentage. Problem solved. This is what they should have done. I do think the other problem with this game is the out of control ramping up of DPS over time. I personally liked it better when we had caps to things.US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
Torbschka✭✭✭✭Toc de Malsvi wrote: »
This is just BS. Magicka Wardens have amazing mobility.Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..
Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it
The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.
I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)
Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.
Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it
Its not, stop that trash talking. I play it exusively since morrowind and its way way harder than any other class for 1vX except magicka NB.
U procblades seems really pissed lol
It has a higher skill cap than most, but it is certainly not weak. Wrecking groups as a Warden is stupid easy with scorch. And the undodgeable dive makes securing kills very easy since no one can play defensively against you. No one in medium armor that is.
Also I'm certainly not a proc blade.
Do u have a magden or know that from others? I can agree, if the enemys dont see me (e.g., fighting an other guy in BGS) and I come in with scorch and target 1 with dive into CS combo, yes - he will die. So may 1 other if he was already low and get hit by sorch.
The thing is, going in on a procblade on 80% target will kill it also, or a templar or whatever. Ifu as a magden are targeted by 2 players I wanna see how u kill them so easily. Ofc , bad players are easy kills, but they are on any class.
Again, the max magicka route is very similar to magicka NB. How many do u see 1vX?
Magicka warden has very bad mobility and are *** by snares, its very hard to land deep fissure if u are focused by 2 players , 80% snared and they are rolling / walking all the timé through u.
Listen, I understand, dive is "cancer" if u already fighting other people, but so are pricblades or 3 sorcs spamming curse. In a 1v1 u dont spam dive as a magden or u instakilled if u dont have ur shield up. OFC, talking about the necro route , there are other ways to build the magden, but they dont have that huge burst.
Major Expedition
Snare's reduced in effectiveness by 15%.
Ability to gap close to an ally
If you think they have bad mobility you are ignorant of the class or playing it very poorly.
Mr super IQ, mag nightblade have bad mobility and crying like 1 year about it in the snare meta.
They even have 30% speed, shade, cloak. Major Expedition means nothing while snared, that 15% reduction is actually pretty useless cuz most snares are 60%+ , ur still super slow.
Furthermore, as I said many times here, I play solo magden. No allys for me...
Templars have bad mobility , so do dks, the only difference between them and warden is, that warden has 30%, which is, as said above, in 1vX pretty useless. I would trade the cleanse from templar all day for 30% speed (1 spell netch not really useful, cuz u offen dont cleanse what u want to).
This thread is really hard, cuz there are many different views on that topic and the most crys coming from guys who got Xv1d (lol) while a warden spamming cliffracer..as I said before, this is annoying, but so are other things. Do u guys think its fun fighting 3 other guys and getting jumped by a procblade instantly hittibg for 20k?
Sometimes this discussion feels like Im arguing with my semestre 1 students at university. U cant just take out dive of the whole context and saying its op, while dont have a clue about the rest of the class and how it functions..2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭So many straw men from both sides in this thread.
Let me be bold and say CR doesn't need to be dodgable, but I want it to be. Here's why;
Magdens aren't weak in pvp, though I don't think they are necessarily OP. Shalk fletcher CR is a solid offensive foundation, ice fort lotus netch are great buffs to build a back bar around.
Fletcher is a very hard hitting dot, esp every other cast. Shalk is a funny skill, it's weaknesses are also its strengths. It's got a delay and has to be aimed manually. Delay helps line up big burst. And its AOE stun and damage makes it an effective area denial ability.
What makes this all work really well are birds. Hits hard, costs little, instant cast. They are undodgaeable so you have to eat the damage. But that's fine for builds that are meant to eat damage.
Shields and heals are a great counter to wardens. It's nothing special really just like any other fight, eat damage with shield or heals, counter attack.
Block is only an ok counter to the rotation of fletcher, shalk/CR cycle because the limited mobility while blocking keeps you in shalk area while sprinting or dodgerolling away from shalk makes you eat birds. It works though esp if you are a s/b DK who can tank and then regen resources through ultimate and sustain.
But a high burst medium stam has a hard time dealing with birds. You have to dodge the shalk, while healing through/blocking birds. Meanwhile fletcher is eating you alive and probably proving skoria.
If you get in a burst combo and he survives through the CC you have to contend with healing ward and possibly a healing ulti, forest or resto probably. Fletcher still eating you with skoria, then back to blocking / healing birds while running away from shalk.
If birds were dodgeable it wouldn't really hurt the warden against heavy stam/mag classes who don't roll much and are built to eat the damage already. It would make match ups against medium stam more even. Hence I want but don't need bird to be dodgeable. This game doesn't need to be RPS.
Two corrections: Shalk is not AOE stun (it only stuns one target, closest to the warden), and fetcher flies do not proc skoria (this might be a bug, nonetheless that's what it is right now.)0 -
Torbschka✭✭✭✭So many straw men from both sides in this thread.
Let me be bold and say CR doesn't need to be dodgable, but I want it to be. Here's why;
Magdens aren't weak in pvp, though I don't think they are necessarily OP. Shalk fletcher CR is a solid offensive foundation, ice fort lotus netch are great buffs to build a back bar around.
Fletcher is a very hard hitting dot, esp every other cast. Shalk is a funny skill, it's weaknesses are also its strengths. It's got a delay and has to be aimed manually. Delay helps line up big burst. And its AOE stun and damage makes it an effective area denial ability.
What makes this all work really well are birds. Hits hard, costs little, instant cast. They are undodgaeable so you have to eat the damage. But that's fine for builds that are meant to eat damage.
Shields and heals are a great counter to wardens. It's nothing special really just like any other fight, eat damage with shield or heals, counter attack.
Block is only an ok counter to the rotation of fletcher, shalk/CR cycle because the limited mobility while blocking keeps you in shalk area while sprinting or dodgerolling away from shalk makes you eat birds. It works though esp if you are a s/b DK who can tank and then regen resources through ultimate and sustain.
But a high burst medium stam has a hard time dealing with birds. You have to dodge the shalk, while healing through/blocking birds. Meanwhile fletcher is eating you alive and probably proving skoria.
If you get in a burst combo and he survives through the CC you have to contend with healing ward and possibly a healing ulti, forest or resto probably. Fletcher still eating you with skoria, then back to blocking / healing birds while running away from shalk.
If birds were dodgeable it wouldn't really hurt the warden against heavy stam/mag classes who don't roll much and are built to eat the damage already. It would make match ups against medium stam more even. Hence I want but don't need bird to be dodgeable. This game doesn't need to be RPS.
Two corrections: Shalk is not AOE stun (it only stuns one target, closest to the warden), and fetcher flies do not proc skoria (this might be a bug, nonetheless that's what it is right now.)
Dont even try, I have mentioned 2 pages ago that deep fissure is a hard to lang single target CC skillshot already, here we are still seeing complaints about the huge aoe DMG stun of wardens.0 -
dodgehopper_ESO✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭So many straw men from both sides in this thread.
Let me be bold and say CR doesn't need to be dodgable, but I want it to be. Here's why;
Magdens aren't weak in pvp, though I don't think they are necessarily OP. Shalk fletcher CR is a solid offensive foundation, ice fort lotus netch are great buffs to build a back bar around.
Fletcher is a very hard hitting dot, esp every other cast. Shalk is a funny skill, it's weaknesses are also its strengths. It's got a delay and has to be aimed manually. Delay helps line up big burst. And its AOE stun and damage makes it an effective area denial ability.
What makes this all work really well are birds. Hits hard, costs little, instant cast. They are undodgaeable so you have to eat the damage. But that's fine for builds that are meant to eat damage.
Shields and heals are a great counter to wardens. It's nothing special really just like any other fight, eat damage with shield or heals, counter attack.
Block is only an ok counter to the rotation of fletcher, shalk/CR cycle because the limited mobility while blocking keeps you in shalk area while sprinting or dodgerolling away from shalk makes you eat birds. It works though esp if you are a s/b DK who can tank and then regen resources through ultimate and sustain.
But a high burst medium stam has a hard time dealing with birds. You have to dodge the shalk, while healing through/blocking birds. Meanwhile fletcher is eating you alive and probably proving skoria.
If you get in a burst combo and he survives through the CC you have to contend with healing ward and possibly a healing ulti, forest or resto probably. Fletcher still eating you with skoria, then back to blocking / healing birds while running away from shalk.
If birds were dodgeable it wouldn't really hurt the warden against heavy stam/mag classes who don't roll much and are built to eat the damage already. It would make match ups against medium stam more even. Hence I want but don't need bird to be dodgeable. This game doesn't need to be RPS.
Your analysis is great and doesn't take into account stam-dens. My personal assessment honestly is that DK and Sorc are still stronger. Warden is fun but I don't think it is out of control and certainly not stronger than these two classes. Most folks I've been talking to in pvp circles agree. I still believe the problem is with the way Blocking was handled to begin with. They need to go back to the drawing board on that one, but I've been suggesting that since they stated they were going to cut off stam regen.
US/AD - Dodge Hopper - Vet Imperial Templar | US/AD - Goj-ei-Raj - Vet Argonian Nightblade
US/AD - Arondonimo - Vet Altmer Sorcerer | US/AD - Azumarax - Vet Dunmer Dragon Knight
US/AD - Barkan al-Sheharesh - Vet Redguard Dragon Knight | US/AD - Aelus Vortavoriil - Vet Altmer Templar
US/AD - Shirari Qa'Dar - Vet Khajiit Nightblade | US/AD - Ndvari Mzunchvolenthumz - Vet Bosmer Nightblade
US/EP - Yngmar - Vet Nord Dragon Knight | US/EP - Reloth Ur Fyr - Vet Dunmer Sorcerer
US/DC - Muiredeach - Vet Breton Sorcerer | US/DC - Nachtrabe - Vet Orc Nightblade
EU/DC - Dragol gro-Unglak - Vet Orc Dragon Knight | EU/DC - Targan al-Barkan - Vet Redguard Templar
EU/DC - Wuthmir - Vet Nord Sorcerer | EU/DC - Kosh Ragotoro - Vet Khajiit Nightblade
<And plenty more>0 -
Olen_Mikko✭✭✭✭✭
✭Buff warden, it's weak.
No, nerf Warden it's too OPNB enthusiastic:- Woodhippie stamblade - DW hard-hitter / PvE
- Know-it-all elf Magblade - Healer / PvE & PvP
- Hate-them-all elf Magblade - Destrostaff AoE monster / PvE
- Cyrodiil-Refugee stamblade - Stamina Tank / PvE
Go dominion or go home
Nightblade-Hipster. I played Nightblade before it was cool - from 1.5 onwards.0 -
Magıc✭✭✭✭✭The amount of people defending this skill because they think 1vX shouldn't be possible lol
Cyrodiil is open world, it is there for all playstyles. However whether it's a 1vX situation or a GvG, if wardens can literally spam 1 skill because it has no counters it is broken.
Zos *** up, I don't blame the players because it's Zos who made the mistake. They built Wardens with the sole purpose of knocking templars and DKs off as the main tank/healers in PvE. I bet if PvP didn't exist they wouldn't have gave Wardens any DPS abilities at all, they woulda gave them even more utility. Yet they failed in their goal of making Wardens OP for the roles they wanted them to be OP, and instead made it the perfect class for casuals in PvP.Edited by Magıc on June 23, 2017 2:25PM3 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭@Strider_Roshin so you want to make dodge a hard counter to everything?
Why not? Damage shields, and blocking currently are. And I didn't say everything, but merely everything that should be dodgeable; which is everything except for ground AoEs.
I'm also advocating the removal of the cost increase while increasing the base cost of dodging, reducing the invincibility frames (if your character isn't rolling, you're not dodging), and removing the evasion buff.
And I also don't believe that your stam regen should disappear when blocking, but merely it should be cut in half. However I believe the cost of blocking should be increased, and blocking until you spend all of your stamina should set you off balanced.
Oh and bring back stam regen while sprinting. I have better cardio than my character does for crying out loud.2