Dive needs to be dodgeable

Strider_Roshin

Medium armor is the weakest armor class currently and having this move be undodgeable is a gross disregard towards balance.

GreenSoup2HoT

Its also unblockable i believe. (Edit: Confirmed Blockable by some people in thread.)

Died quiet a few times on my medium nightblade while being denied cloak and forced to roll dodge while Wardens just spam this ability. Its like another radiant d.

akray21

Most OP ability in the game right now.

Juhasow

Reasoning behind this ability beeing undodgable and unreflactabe is that animation is long and there is a delay between using skill and hitting enemie with it and for zenimax it's downside....but it isnt downside that's actually a profit of this ability because it allows to create burst with addition of another skills.
So they added another profits to that skill because it already had profits....lol

Smmokkee

LOL FOR REAL THOUGH.. This ability is crazy.

ZoS made it undodgeable because of the travel time? Lol by the time the first one hits the second one is damn near already there.

DeadlyRecluse

It is blockable, don't know why people are saying it isn't.

It definitely needs to be made dodgeable, though.

Rebornlogic

clarification light armour is the weakest but because of dmg shields it becomes tanky

medium armour is tanky to a point as long as you have your crit resist needs and dont run clever alch because its very squishy unless you run impen.

theres no need for crying over a single skill.
i personally have 0 issue killing warden in medium while there dive spamming.

it does NOT pull you out of stealth your prob gettig maglighted while diving as theres a delay between dives

Rebornlogic

just a thougt try running cowards gear and running out of range before stealthing or roll dodging

Metemsycosis

It's not so bad if there's just one warden.........

Turelus

Metemsycosis wrote: »

It's not so bad if there's just one warden.........

That's possible? I thought they only came in packs.

Vaoh

If it was so strong then we'd be seeing Wardens everywhere, not just the odd people who want to play a new class. It is undodgeable, but then again what else will a Warden do to you? They have like two attacks in PvP and no execute....

I have only seen a handful of Magicka Wardens (practically all of which were easy kills) and some strong Stam Wardens who didn't use the cliff racer. If the undodgeable part of Dive is removed them Mag Warden will be bad in both PvP and PvE.

Also this skill is blockable @GreenSoup2HoT

Valencer

Was pointed out many times on PTS. Feedback was ignored.

The animation has to look pretty and abilities being counterable is sooo 2016.

SodanTok

Zergs gonna be zergs, but in the current iteration of warden, the fact this skill is undodgeable is like the only reason fights versus shuffle nightblades are winnable. If you play ranged build you do literally zero damage without undodgeable skills. And that's coming from medium armor stam warden who gets spammed by mag wardens with twice the damage of cliffracers all the time.

Sarousse

The ability won't be nerfed. It's the only existing counter to permadodging-sprinting-cancerblades that are spreading through Cyrodiil faster than the warden's growing swarm.

Izaki

GreenSoup2HoT wrote: »

Its also unblockable i believe. Died quiet a few times on my medium nightblade while being denied cloak and forced to roll dodge while Wardens just spam this ability. Its like another radiant d.

It is blockable.

Valencer

Is "It counters perma-rolling procblades!" the new nonsense everyone is going to copy-paste to justify this spammable ability having no counter besides damage shields and block?

Guess what, NBs can cloak it and every good procblade has enough magicka sustain to use cloak plenty. So no, it's not a counter to procblades - it's just a stupid spammble Xv1 ability that ends everyone who isnt a shieldstacker or permablocker.

Biro123

Gonna start by saying that I think it IS too strong - but then I'm gonna say that I like the way Zos is going in that they are adding more abilities that are hard-counters to a specific defence - forcing you to build with multiple kinds of defence in mind..

Its like sorc shields.. I see a lot of stuff that ignores shields now.. and the sustain changes means my build now has weaker shields - so I've had to invest in more dodge-rolls, and a reliable heal behind those shields. I can't JUST spam shields and survive anymore (although they are a big part of it) - and I like that.

Sylosi

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill, warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, it is just, well...

Vaoh

Sylosi wrote: »

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, well...

^^^^ yep.

People don't worry about these things.

They coincidentally do not play the class and just run their typical proc cancer builds. When they die to the occational Warden their first reaction is to complain.

All of the strongest Stamina Wardens do not even slot Cutting Dive, because there are far better ways to build. Cutting Dive is essentially for mainhand Warden Bow users, which are easy to kill.

Magicka Wardens have two skills for dealing damage, both of which are highly telegraphed. They also have low raw DPS. Taking away this part of Dive would leave Wardens literally useless.

....and people still have the nerve to complain about Magblades needing buffs, while asking to gut Mag Wardens in PvP (the only content they're remotely viable in).

smh

SelfTherapy

Lmaoo in battlegrounds last night, kept rolling and rolling and I'm just thinking how the hell does this keep hitting me.

Takes-No-Prisoner

@Strider_Roshin

How much was Dive hitting you for? I know you don't really play CP, but were you in BG? non-CP or CP campaign?

Dive on CP hits for wet noodles in my Hardend Ward. So I am not seeing what you are seeing, yet. I do plan on dusting off my StamBlade tonight.

Strider_Roshin

Takes-No-Prisoner wrote: »

@Strider_Roshin

How much was Dive hitting you for? I know you don't really play CP, but were you in BG? non-CP or CP campaign?

Dive on CP hits for wet noodles in my Hardend Ward. So I am not seeing what you are seeing, yet. I do plan on dusting off my StamBlade tonight.

5200 in non-CP with my OP medium armor mitigation *heavy sarcasm*

Against a high damage opponent like the one referenced I typically die in 5 seconds because they hit you back to back, and since their range surpasses that of a gap closer the only thing I can do is die.

akray21

Vaoh wrote: »

If it was so strong then we'd be seeing Wardens everywhere, not just the odd people who want to play a new class. It is undodgeable, but then again what else will a Warden do to you? They have like two attacks in PvP and no execute....

I have only seen a handful of Magicka Wardens (practically all of which were easy kills) and some strong Stam Wardens who didn't use the cliff racer. If the undodgeable part of Dive is removed them Mag Warden will be bad in both PvP and PvE.

Also this skill is blockable @GreenSoup2HoT

It hits like a ranged version of surprise attack, but even MORE powerful. The damage should be much lower than surprise attack due to it having the advantage of range, but instead it's damage is instead roughly 18% more at max range. Who ever made this ability was not thinking straight.

GreenSoup2HoT

akray21 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If it was so strong then we'd be seeing Wardens everywhere, not just the odd people who want to play a new class. It is undodgeable, but then again what else will a Warden do to you? They have like two attacks in PvP and no execute....

I have only seen a handful of Magicka Wardens (practically all of which were easy kills) and some strong Stam Wardens who didn't use the cliff racer. If the undodgeable part of Dive is removed them Mag Warden will be bad in both PvP and PvE.

Also this skill is blockable @GreenSoup2HoT

It hits like a ranged version of surprise attack, but even MORE powerful. The damage should be much lower than surprise attack due to it having the advantage of range, but instead it's damage is instead roughly 18% more at max range. Who ever made this ability was not thinking straight.

WHY ISNT HIDDEN BLADE UNDODGEABLE?

What your saying is true though.

Takes-No-Prisoner

So you specifically said Dive but not what morph it was; Was it Cutting Dive or Screaming cliff racer? Cause me thinks with Screaming you could at least get into CQC range and they won't get any bonus damage from range.

Does flashing cloak do anything?

Lieblingsjunge

It's like the new beam. Except it'll hit you for 5k(on my Templar in heavy armour with ~23k resistances...) no matter if you're in execute or at 100%. Find 2 wardens spamming that on you and you'll curse the heavens.

OdinForge

It's funny to see warden bads desperately casting dive back to back, especially when you fall to low health.

Valencer

akray21 wrote: »

Vaoh wrote: »

If it was so strong then we'd be seeing Wardens everywhere, not just the odd people who want to play a new class. It is undodgeable, but then again what else will a Warden do to you? They have like two attacks in PvP and no execute....

I have only seen a handful of Magicka Wardens (practically all of which were easy kills) and some strong Stam Wardens who didn't use the cliff racer. If the undodgeable part of Dive is removed them Mag Warden will be bad in both PvP and PvE.

Also this skill is blockable @GreenSoup2HoT

It hits like a ranged version of surprise attack, but even MORE powerful. The damage should be much lower than surprise attack due to it having the advantage of range, but instead it's damage is instead roughly 18% more at max range. Who ever made this ability was not thinking straight.

Basically.

90% of the wardens that use this ability in PvP atm just spam this ability over and over when you have multiple people youre already trying to fight so there's basically nothing you can do if you dont have damage shields and arent an useless troll tank.
It's fun trying to outheal an undodgeable 4-5k damage per dive. I can't wait for people to tell me "you should die when outnumbered, anyway" to further highlight how dumbed down PvP has become over the past year.

But like I said, this exact concern was raised on the PTS the moment people got their hands on the warden class and even when the warden was first revealed. Nothing was done about it, so this is working exactly as intended. At least Halls of Fabrication is fun. :^)

GreenSoup2HoT

Mfw i spam absorb magic now and its proven to be quiet effective. Plague Doctor stamblade ftw.

Glad ive switched to more of a none meta approached build. Im bored lol.

CTSCold

As a stam warden it does currently hit to hard. You can perfectly line up a sub assault, crit rush, cliff racer into la/execute spam easy add in proc sets for extra lols.

olsborg

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Medium armor is the weakest armor class currently and having this move be undodgeable is a gross disregard towards balance.

Yea pretty much sums it up. There are already a plethura of hardhitting abilities (ultimates) that arent dodgeable, dodge is the medium armor user first and foremost method of avoiding dmg. Blocking basicly shuts down the whole point of medium armor builds...stamina regen. This is grossly penalizing medium armor when medium armor builds are already pretty lackluster if you compare them to heavy armor and light armor-shieldspammy.