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Dive needs to be dodgeable
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭How do dodge help any1 that isnt stam? Nb can cloak it only one class lacks counter and sorc can shield it or use streak to out range or los.
You have to be on a mag toon (no matter the class) to use shields.
Only SnB users, DK, Templar can reflect.
Only NB can cloak.
Everyone can dodge. Stam toons can do it more often.
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C0ndor✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
As nb you can cloack, as any other class just attack the warden melee, if you die against a dude just spamming cr you will have some serious problem against other classes too, a single skill is not your problem at all, rally and vigor up can mitigate easily a single button spam. A warden to deal a tons of damage has to cast 3 skill that will land toghether. One is dodgable, one is a ground effect. This mean that you are probably roll dodging in the wrong direction, if you pass behind the warden with the right timing, you will be hit just bg a cliff racer and you have a window of 3 sec to do what you want to the warden. Let cliff racer being dodgable and a warden is completly useless against any other dude Who actually know how to play against it. if you want to be doadged, zeni have to do a huge buff to all the other skills (increase duration of buffs, more damage on all of the abilities)
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Jawasa✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »How do dodge help any1 that isnt stam? Nb can cloak it only one class lacks counter and sorc can shield it or use streak to out range or los.
You have to be on a mag toon (no matter the class) to use shields.
Only SnB users, DK, Templar can reflect.
Only NB can cloak.
Everyone can dodge. Stam toons can do it more often.
And every1 can block whats your Point? Dodge on anything but stamian builds leaves you drained and dead unless you build for it just like medium can build for block by using shield. Atm the only ones that has a right to complain about this skill is dk in medium/la, templar medium/la and wardens. Reflect helps them all.0 -
Lord-Otto✭✭✭✭✭
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To be fair, I can't walk through jabs, as I'm snared by the healing circle. Magicka builds are helpless to snares. And shields are more of a heal than damage mitigation, as they'll eat full damage minus that 5% crit over impen. If anything, stamina builds have the luxury of having real counterplay with block and dodge.leepalmer95 wrote: »I love how people here go all they do is sit back and spam this ability...it's the damn classes spammable attack! Just like jabs and all of the other BS spammables this game has. I hated spamming jabs repeatedly as a Templar and I hate the damn bird..but guess what..what do you do? My Magden's damage is already subpar unless im in PVE stacking AOES to melt crap down. When I roll Stamden at least i can do some meaningful damage with some dizzying swing and shalk spam. Of course then I have to wait a whopping 3 seconds for shalks to show their ass and by then you guys have spammed me to death with your spammables..Once again...got to spam something..Like a person said above if you want to know the bird's damage down fine, but you had better jack up my damage elsewhere cause it sucks pretty bad overall.
I'm taking suggestions on what spammable you'd like Magdens to use. Force Pulse? It's damage sucks. Spam destructive clench? Perhaps flying blade so you can dodge again...
Here we go.
Yes classes have spammables. But every other spammables has a counter, i can dodge roll crushing shock/frag/snipe, jabs is melee ranged and i can walk through it, same with skills like dizzying. I can reflect frags/snipes/swallow soul. Thats called counter play. If someone if spamming those skills on me i can do something about it, i don't just have to eat it.
Can you reaction block it the split second the racer hits you?
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sly007✭✭✭✭Loads of people play la with no shields and use selectiv block/dodge and heals. So wouldnt medium use the same counters? I mean every1 that cant dodge will still die to 10 wardens even if it gets nerfed?
Yes, but a magicka build holding block does not compare to medium armor build holding block. Blocking a skill for a few seconds is the end of medium armor. Your sustain is literally shut down. Dive is over performing and it needs to be addressed. The excuse for making it undodgeable does not fit with all the other ranged, travel time, cast time abilities in the game.Edited by sly007 on June 19, 2017 10:32AM3 -
Jawasa✭✭✭Blocking something that is not soulassaukte should take 0,5 sek so Max missing one reg tick?
I play a perma block dk atm and there are tons of skills that ignore block but that is needed to not make me unkillable same goes for dodge. Atm some builds are hard countred by dodge builds.
The only time dive is to strong is xv1 but so do potl, procs and curse for example. I dunno How to change this. Making them dodgeable only helps medium builds and prob make them to strong.1 -
IZZEFlameLash✭✭✭✭✭
✭IZZESparkling wrote: »I have to agree with the block crowd. Even magsorcs sometimes use block as counter to certain offensive stuffs even though they can shield stack. And those sorcs are not really built for prolonged blocking. So... why can't medium armored builds do that with their larger stamina pool?
Rolly polly builds are at large counterless as long as they can dodge roll because everything that is not aoe will not hit reliably unless the skill goes off right after the finish of dodge roll animation. And the cost of skills that were dodged still being charged. I don't know... it's about time rolly polly builds had a reliable counter. If rolly polly wasn't that strong before, I don't think many people who are considered skilled would have used (and still use) stam builds, using dodge rolls as main damage mitigation.
Besides,I think the logic behind Wrobel's decision is that Warden is just magically marking targets for the cliff racer to charge at like guided missiles.
I have no idea what youre even on about. Pre-morrowind most non-NB stamina builds were heavy armour builds relying on block as primary defense.
Maybe on EU. But I rarely saw anyone not-stamDK and running s/b block builds on NA. Most of them were stambuilds using dw and 2h or 2h and bow as far as I could see in Cyrodiil.Imperials, the one and true masters of all mortal races of Tamriel0 -
dominguero96✭✭✭It's funny to see medium armor users( who doesnt have any shields, that is how Zos want it) complainning about a skill when they use proc sets which are very similar. What would a warden without a undodgeable skill do against a stam dodger that only with one skill ( with animation cancealing) + heaviattack gets like enchant + viper + tremor instakill you? Try to see things from the others point of view, Warden dont have many dps skills and if you mess up with one of it, well the class will be more useless than it is right now.
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Takes-No-Prisoner✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Also shalks is one of the best pvp skills in the game
For those who don't know, I was small scaling last night and got stunned by this skill when the caster was on a platform below me. So the stun has some type of vertical reach similar to EOTS. Where the hit boxes extend upward above the caster.
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
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The only time dive is to strong is xv1 but so do potl, procs and curse for example. I dunno How to change this. Making them dodgeable only helps medium builds and prob make them to strong.
With the difference that e.g. curse does not go off every second, even if you would spam it back to back.dominguero96 wrote: »It's funny to see medium armor users( who doesnt have any shields, that is how Zos want it) complainning about a skill when they use proc sets which are very similar. What would a warden without a undodgeable skill do against a stam dodger that only with one skill ( with animation cancealing) + heaviattack gets like enchant + viper + tremor instakill you? Try to see things from the others point of view, Warden dont have many dps skills and if you mess up with one of it, well the class will be more useless than it is right now.
Nice strawman. Also, do you imply only MA users slot proc sets? Plus, this is the third time I mention this here, maybe they should bring the rest of wardens toolcase a bit up instead of givin them one op spam? Sounds much like excuses when people write that the rest of the warden skills are bad to justify an undodgable spam. And most ranged abilites have a travel time, but they are still dodgable.2 -
br0steen✭✭✭✭Stratforge wrote: »Stratforge wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.
What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?
This. It's so spammable and there's nothing I can do about it. Seriously annoying skill.
Lol it doesn't hit nearly hard enough. If it hit as hard as overload AND was undodgeable then yea probably broken, but it's easy to counter. How? Kill the warden XD
You're lost. It regularly hits for 5-7k on a medium armor build.
Let's say you have 20k health on a medium armor build. So in the time the OP af warden spams 4 of these you can't burst them down?
Throw a vigor, throw a rally, kite a little, cc, there's lots you can do.
After seeing this I got on my warden and tried to literally just spam the move from a keep, you know to see if I was just ignorant and that's all it really took. Everyones right it does it for 5-7k, but I didn't kill anybody. Weird.
Wait, I take that back, there was someone 1vXing around a tree dodge rolling, healing, LOSing, etc and I threw a couple which killed the player. So bird OP for Xv1ing???0 -
Valencer✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stratforge wrote: »Stratforge wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.
What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?
This. It's so spammable and there's nothing I can do about it. Seriously annoying skill.
Lol it doesn't hit nearly hard enough. If it hit as hard as overload AND was undodgeable then yea probably broken, but it's easy to counter. How? Kill the warden XD
You're lost. It regularly hits for 5-7k on a medium armor build.
Let's say you have 20k health on a medium armor build. So in the time the OP af warden spams 4 of these you can't burst them down?
Throw a vigor, throw a rally, kite a little, cc, there's lots you can do.
After seeing this I got on my warden and tried to literally just spam the move from a keep, you know to see if I was just ignorant and that's all it really took. Everyones right it does it for 5-7k, but I didn't kill anybody. Weird.
Wait, I take that back, there was someone 1vXing around a tree dodge rolling, healing, LOSing, etc and I threw a couple which killed the player. So bird OP for Xv1ing???
The cliff racer isnt a very good skill for a normal 1-on-1 fight unless you're using it as part of a burst setup (with shalks etc). But yes, it's ridiculously strong for zerging someone down. What point are you trying to make here?0 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »Kinda ironic
Complaining about Cliff Racer when a Viper/Tremorscale/Selene/Red Mountain proc often does more damage then it and is free lol
Some things I this game are just silly, Cliff Racer is pretty low down the totem pole though
I would hope that ZOS is capable at addressing multiple issues at once. Proc sets being OP in PvP isn't an excuse to disregard every other imbalance.
No its not, but Dodge roll and Major Evasion as they work in this game needs to be changed and are every bit as imbalanced as those who claim Cliff Racer is. I'll just leave it as that as I don't want the thread to be derailed.Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak2 -
Jawasa✭✭✭But How do we do that? If you can dodge it it only helps medium armour stambuilds what about la magdk or any build that cant dodge roll?
If We make it so you can dodge and reflect it's a useless skill no?0 -
br0steen✭✭✭✭Stratforge wrote: »Stratforge wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.
What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?
This. It's so spammable and there's nothing I can do about it. Seriously annoying skill.
Lol it doesn't hit nearly hard enough. If it hit as hard as overload AND was undodgeable then yea probably broken, but it's easy to counter. How? Kill the warden XD
You're lost. It regularly hits for 5-7k on a medium armor build.
Let's say you have 20k health on a medium armor build. So in the time the OP af warden spams 4 of these you can't burst them down?
Throw a vigor, throw a rally, kite a little, cc, there's lots you can do.
After seeing this I got on my warden and tried to literally just spam the move from a keep, you know to see if I was just ignorant and that's all it really took. Everyones right it does it for 5-7k, but I didn't kill anybody. Weird.
Wait, I take that back, there was someone 1vXing around a tree dodge rolling, healing, LOSing, etc and I threw a couple which killed the player. So bird OP for Xv1ing???
The cliff racer isnt a very good skill for a normal 1-on-1 fight unless you're using it as part of a burst setup (with shalks etc). But yes, it's ridiculously strong for zerging someone down. What point are you trying to make here?
I thought it was really clear, my point is your last sentence. Its not OP 1 on 1 but zerging someone down its "too strong." You could make that argument for almost anything. Snares are too strong when being zerged, fear is too strong while being zerged, destro ult is too strong while being zerged, detect pots are too strong while being zerged, roots are too strong while being zerged, snipe is too strong while being zerged, mages wrath is too strong while being zerged, jesus beam is too strong while being zerged, crushing shock is too strong while being zerged, open fields are too strong while being zerged, proxy det is too strong while being zerged, all gap closers are too strong while being zerged.
So if the skill is only too strong while zerging, shouldn't this thread really be about nerfing the proverbial zerg?2 -
C0ndor✭✭If you take 10 crit rush or 10 frags or 10 curses i think you have the same problem with cliff racers, the difference is that you can dodge one crit rush and die by 9/10. Is not by dodging one that you will survive0
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Zardayne✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
They'll godly shield it or teleport (sorc)or stay in stealth until I'm hammered for 3/4 of my health and permastunned. They can also vanish and reset the fight.
I get it though. An attack ability should be dodgeable. If the bird is made dodgeable though, the ability or another needs to be compensated because the magden's damage is very low. Sure if someone stacks 57k in magica they can wreck crap but I don't many who can do that and you can say the same of any class.
The past few days I've been switching between my magden and my stamplar and in truth though I haven't seen one bird on my death summaries. I'm curious just how big of an issue this really is. I've been running Total Dark on my templar just in case (as I know I can't dodge roll out of it) but I haven't had to use it. Thing is I'm actively trying to counter it. Perhaps others should try to counter it if the ability is that big of a problem. I've had to run magelight on a stamina character to counter sudden rogue annihilation. Sucks but you do what you have to do..Edited by Zardayne on June 19, 2017 3:30PM0 -
br0steen✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
They'll godly shield it (sorc) or stay in stealth until I'm hammered for 3/4 of my health and permastunned.
I get it though. An attack ability should be dodgeable. If the bird is made dodgeable though, the ability or another needs to be compensated because the magden's damage is very low. Sure if someone stacks 57k in magica they can wreck crap but I don't many who can do that and you can say the same of any class.
The past few days I've been switching between my magden and my stamplar and in truth though I haven't seen one bird on my death summaries. I'm curious just how big of an issue this really is. I've been running Total Dark on my templar just in case (as I know I can't dodge roll out of it) but I haven't had to use it. Thing is I'm actively trying to counter it. Perhaps others should try to counter it if the ability is that big of a problem. I've had to run magelight on a stamina character to counter sudden rogue annihilation. Sucks but you do what you have to do..
So question, are you on console or pc0 -
RinaldoGandolphi✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Seriously though folks
Welcome to Morrowind....The Cliff Racer problem will be taken care of when Jiub is born in the 3rd era.
until then, expect to see lots of flying Cliff Racers...Rinaldo Gandolphi-Breton Sorcerer Daggerfall Covenant
Juste Gandolphi Dark Elf Templar Daggerfall Covenant
Richter Gandolphi - Dark Elf Dragonknight Daggerfall Covenant
Mathias Gandolphi - Breton Nightblade Daggerfall Covenant
RinaldoGandolphi - High Elf Sorcerer Aldmeri Dominion
Officer Fire and Ice
Co-GM - MVP
Sorcerer's - The ONLY class in the game that is punished for using its class defining skill (Bolt Escape)
"Here in his shrine, that they have forgotten. Here do we toil, that we might remember. By night we reclaim, what by day was stolen. Far from ourselves, he grows ever near to us. Our eyes once were blinded, now through him do we see. Our hands once were idle, now through them does he speak. And when the world shall listen, and when the world shall see, and when the world remembers, that world will cease to be. - Miraak2 -
Joy_Division✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Stratforge wrote: »Stratforge wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.
What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?
This. It's so spammable and there's nothing I can do about it. Seriously annoying skill.
Lol it doesn't hit nearly hard enough. If it hit as hard as overload AND was undodgeable then yea probably broken, but it's easy to counter. How? Kill the warden XD
You're lost. It regularly hits for 5-7k on a medium armor build.
Let's say you have 20k health on a medium armor build. So in the time the OP af warden spams 4 of these you can't burst them down?
Throw a vigor, throw a rally, kite a little, cc, there's lots you can do.
After seeing this I got on my warden and tried to literally just spam the move from a keep, you know to see if I was just ignorant and that's all it really took. Everyones right it does it for 5-7k, but I didn't kill anybody. Weird.
Wait, I take that back, there was someone 1vXing around a tree dodge rolling, healing, LOSing, etc and I threw a couple which killed the player. So bird OP for Xv1ing???
The cliff racer isnt a very good skill for a normal 1-on-1 fight unless you're using it as part of a burst setup (with shalks etc). But yes, it's ridiculously strong for zerging someone down. What point are you trying to make here?
I thought it was really clear, my point is your last sentence. Its not OP 1 on 1 but zerging someone down its "too strong." You could make that argument for almost anything. Snares are too strong when being zerged, fear is too strong while being zerged, destro ult is too strong while being zerged, detect pots are too strong while being zerged, roots are too strong while being zerged, snipe is too strong while being zerged, mages wrath is too strong while being zerged, jesus beam is too strong while being zerged, crushing shock is too strong while being zerged, open fields are too strong while being zerged, proxy det is too strong while being zerged, all gap closers are too strong while being zerged.
So if the skill is only too strong while zerging, shouldn't this thread really be about nerfing the proverbial zerg?
Yes and no. While it is true that every skill is stronger in an Xv1 scenario, some are much more so because the accompanying drawnbacks to said skills are inconsequential. Stuff like Jesus Beam, hardcasted frags, snipe, channeled heavy attacks, etc. And even then, I can still do something with many attacks against me (cleanse Jesus Beams, reflect frags, dodge most stuff, etc.)
I don't like the cliff racer skill at all. As a Warden, I would prefer a more varied offensive toolkit than "you only get one spammable, but it goes through dodge." As a non-Warden I would prefer to able to do something other than just block.
I hate nerfs and homogenization so I'd rather ZoS rework the skill than simply nerfing it or making it a generic spammable.2 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Yoohoo4411 wrote: »Yoohoo4411 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.
What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?
Are you seriously complaining about not being able to 1vX?
Yeah why not? All gameplay styles are supposedly supported by ZOS in cyro (lol),
If your outnumbered are you just suppose to keel over and die or try to win?
Ok. Got it.
If you can't successfully 1vX then the game is obviously flawed.
Seems reasonable.
Again nothing to do with 1vX
Its the fact the skill has no counters and hits hard, is that so hleepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.
TL:DR why doesn't this skill have any counterplay at all.
Wardens: Leave out 0 counterplay skill i can finally do something to good players now when i chase with with 10 others.
Why do you keep repeating the no counterplay bs. You can think whatever about the 'undodgeability' , but all counterplays except dodge and reflect are still working against it.
I would rather be hunted by 5 wardens spamming this, than 2 sorcs with curse and soul assault.
Because it doesn't? Your asking medium builds to block every racer as a means to counterplay? Because thats the only way.
This skill is the equivalent of surprise attack ignoring shields, block or stoping a magplar being able to use breath to heal. It has no counters.
Just speed up the animation so its like a usual instant skill and make it dodgeable.
LOS still works really good...0 -
br0steen✭✭✭✭Let's take a step back and look at this issue objectively with some historical context.
Many times what happens is people call for a nerf, or adjustment and zos responds to the outcry.
There are always suggestions brought forward that people tend to aggree with, in this case that would be make it dodgeable.
Now what happens is zos thinks well, we dont want to outright nerf it maybe just change it so its strong in other ways.
So in the case of dive they are more likely to do something ridiculous like make it a very strong dot, that can stack on itself. Can you imagine someone spamming this move, self healing in between, and you end up with 7 dots on you?
Just saying be careful when you ask zos to fix something because usually, lets be real, they might make it worse.0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭If you take 10 crit rush or 10 frags or 10 curses i think you have the same problem with cliff racers, the difference is that you can dodge one crit rush and die by 9/10. Is not by dodging one that you will survive
Its not once you'll dodge, when you have more than 1 warden spamming it, its a lot of damage.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
TheBonesXXX✭✭✭✭✭
✭Let's take a step back and look at this issue objectively with some historical context.
Many times what happens is people call for a nerf, or adjustment and zos responds to the outcry.
There are always suggestions brought forward that people tend to aggree with, in this case that would be make it dodgeable.
Now what happens is zos thinks well, we dont want to outright nerf it maybe just change it so its strong in other ways.
So in the case of dive they are more likely to do something ridiculous like make it a very strong dot, that can stack on itself. Can you imagine someone spamming this move, self healing in between, and you end up with 7 dots on you?
Just saying be careful when you ask zos to fix something because usually, lets be real, they might make it worse.
They nerfed Camo hunter.. then took the idea and made gear out of it
People just do not pay attention to the iterations of ESO...
They nerfed Bats and impulse...
then we got prox det and eye of the storm..
loooooooooooooooooooooooooooool
and no one will pay attention to what I just said even though if they think about it, the problem never left it was cleverly disguised as something else.
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aToken✭✭✭I greeing here the skill is already srtpong enough that it can be spammed and low cost. The fact that it cannot be dodged is too much. Warden is already overpowered with passive major mending. NO need to give it unavoidable damage as well.2
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Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭You realize that you are talking of fighting 10 wardens right? You think you will survive against 5 sorcs with curse and frag? Ora again 5 nb or 5 dk? C'mon guys what are you talking about? In BG i never get more than 2 warden on enemy team, rarely same un cyro. You can easily take down one warden with every stam class in 1v1 if you know how to play, and guess what, 1vx shouldnt exist against player that know how to play, otherwise it means the game is not balanced.
You can survive 10 sorcs easily using LoS and dodgeroll (even magewrath can be dodge rolled), so your argument is invalid. It's called "skill".
Regarding 1vX, it doesn't depend o the game, but on the player skills. When X is bad, X should die. What shouldn't exist is X being bad and killing everyone just because they spam one button. That's OP. You can't replace skill with 1 button smash.
Imho, Warden in PvP is a class for potatoes with low self esteem (not all of them, but mostly)... let's make dive dodgeable and we will see who's good or bad playing it. Let's make it dodgeable and we will spot immediately the problems with the class. Let's make dive dodgeable while giving the class an identity. Currently it brings nothing to the table but the FotM skills that will be nerfed in the coming patch.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
As nb you can cloack, as any other class just attack the warden melee, if you die against a dude just spamming cr you will have some serious problem against other classes too, a single skill is not your problem at all, rally and vigor up can mitigate easily a single button spam. A warden to deal a tons of damage has to cast 3 skill that will land toghether. One is dodgable, one is a ground effect. This mean that you are probably roll dodging in the wrong direction, if you pass behind the warden with the right timing, you will be hit just bg a cliff racer and you have a window of 3 sec to do what you want to the warden. Let cliff racer being dodgable and a warden is completly useless against any other dude Who actually know how to play against it. if you want to be doadged, zeni have to do a huge buff to all the other skills (increase duration of buffs, more damage on all of the abilities)
Have you ever played NB? Stamblade can't cloak all the day, Magblade cam but there are a ton of counters to cloak. How many counters are for Dive?
Zero.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique2 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.You realize that you are talking of fighting 10 wardens right? You think you will survive against 5 sorcs with curse and frag? Ora again 5 nb or 5 dk? C'mon guys what are you talking about? In BG i never get more than 2 warden on enemy team, rarely same un cyro. You can easily take down one warden with every stam class in 1v1 if you know how to play, and guess what, 1vx shouldnt exist against player that know how to play, otherwise it means the game is not balanced.
You can survive 10 sorcs easily using LoS and dodgeroll (even magewrath can be dodge rolled), so your argument is invalid. It's called "skill".
Regarding 1vX, it doesn't depend o the game, but on the player skills. When X is bad, X should die. What shouldn't exist is X being bad and killing everyone just because they spam one button. That's OP. You can't replace skill with 1 button smash.
Imho, Warden in PvP is a class for potatoes with low self esteem (not all of them, but mostly)... let's make dive dodgeable and we will see who's good or bad playing it. Let's make it dodgeable and we will spot immediately the problems with the class. Let's make dive dodgeable while giving the class an identity. Currently it brings nothing to the table but the FotM skills that will be nerfed in the coming patch.
Sidenote: How do you LoS and dodgeroll through 10 curse procs or how do you dodge roll the execute proc of magewrath.
Regarding potatoes. If you die to people spamming one skill, you are as much potato as them. You wont kill good player with undodgeable ability. And good player wont jump into zerg of 30 wardens with expection of surviving. So that makes the skill on potatoes very good vs good players only in situation when good players attracts horde of them (intentionally or unintentionally) and in that case, as with everything in this game -> Numbers win. It is true for every mean of defense in this game (well, except cloak if no potato has anticloak mechanics, but that is exactly same situation as running into zerg of players without any undodgeable skill)2 -
Jawasa✭✭✭good stamblade builds can cloak a lot and you can just cloak and los. You have no right to complain. Only dk, templar and warden have the right to complain sorc and nb have perfectly good counters.
Thats why it should be made reflectable instead.2 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭.You realize that you are talking of fighting 10 wardens right? You think you will survive against 5 sorcs with curse and frag? Ora again 5 nb or 5 dk? C'mon guys what are you talking about? In BG i never get more than 2 warden on enemy team, rarely same un cyro. You can easily take down one warden with every stam class in 1v1 if you know how to play, and guess what, 1vx shouldnt exist against player that know how to play, otherwise it means the game is not balanced.
You can survive 10 sorcs easily using LoS and dodgeroll (even magewrath can be dodge rolled), so your argument is invalid. It's called "skill".
Regarding 1vX, it doesn't depend o the game, but on the player skills. When X is bad, X should die. What shouldn't exist is X being bad and killing everyone just because they spam one button. That's OP. You can't replace skill with 1 button smash.
Imho, Warden in PvP is a class for potatoes with low self esteem (not all of them, but mostly)... let's make dive dodgeable and we will see who's good or bad playing it. Let's make it dodgeable and we will spot immediately the problems with the class. Let's make dive dodgeable while giving the class an identity. Currently it brings nothing to the table but the FotM skills that will be nerfed in the coming patch.
Sidenote: How do you LoS and dodgeroll through 10 curse procs or how do you dodge roll the execute proc of magewrath.
Regarding potatoes. If you die to people spamming one skill, you are as much potato as them. You wont kill good player with undodgeable ability. And good player wont jump into zerg of 30 wardens with expection of surviving. So that makes the skill on potatoes very good vs good players only in situation when good players attracts horde of them (intentionally or unintentionally) and in that case, as with everything in this game -> Numbers win. It is true for every mean of defense in this game (well, except cloak if no potato has anticloak mechanics, but that is exactly same situation as running into zerg of players without any undodgeable skill)
Sorry, but you have taken the word "wrong" to a whole new level:
1. You say "Block is the counter to dive". Ok, then go and block 10 dives. What happens? Yes, each time you block a racer, it depletes your stam pool, not to mention that when blocking, your stam stops regenerating. So you are not only doing dmg to the guy blocking, but also dmging it's stam pool. Since stam heals through Vigor and considering Vigor cost has been increased, there's no point into make this skill unblockable. Blocking (as a defensive strategy) works toghether with other defensive strategies like dodge rolling or shields that allow you to mitigate while regenereating stam, unless the too is build towards permablocking... and even that was nerfed last patch
2. 90% of the time numbers win, but you must leave an open window for the skillful to go through. Currently Dive doesn't allow that window. Is that smart design? No
3. We all know dive is the bait for people to buy warden and feel "heroic"... enjoy it while it lasts, but don't pretend we are gonna buy the "it's balanced" argument here, because it is not.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1