Dive needs to be dodgeable

leepalmer95

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

But dive ignoring dodge is the equivalent of a stamina spammable with similar damage ignoring shields.

I have to disagree there. If Nightblades could ignore shields the world would be on fire. Dive being undodgeable isn't hurting much at all, except those stam builds thinking they can dodge roll out of a 1v10. It's true, maybe they could have been able to do that before, but if you're getting chased by a Warden, then chances are you aren't getting away as easily as you used to.
But if you fight a warden using cliff racer as their spammable in a 1v1, it's not going to do them any favours. By the time a single cliff racer hits a nightblade, they've already unloaded 19k damage in 1.5 seconds on you.

I see.

So you think its not good in 1v1, even though it is. Therefore should be left. The game should be based around 1v1's because 1v1 is how pvp is in the game?

Or is it if there is a warden present in any outnumbered situation you should accept the fact your going to die and not have any way to escape? Not even a chance.

Wardens can also unload a lot of damage in 1 second? Whats your point? Shalk + dive + crushing shock.

Izaki

I'm fairly certain that the shalk aren't dodgeable, they just have a pretty small area of effect so it may seem like you dodged it, but you didn't xD

Alucardo

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

But dive ignoring dodge is the equivalent of a stamina spammable with similar damage ignoring shields.

I have to disagree there. If Nightblades could ignore shields the world would be on fire. Dive being undodgeable isn't hurting much at all, except those stam builds thinking they can dodge roll out of a 1v10. It's true, maybe they could have been able to do that before, but if you're getting chased by a Warden, then chances are you aren't getting away as easily as you used to.
But if you fight a warden using cliff racer as their spammable in a 1v1, it's not going to do them any favours. By the time a single cliff racer hits a nightblade, they've already unloaded 19k damage in 1.5 seconds on you.

I see.

So you think its not good in 1v1, even though it is. Therefore should be left. The game should be based around 1v1's because 1v1 is how pvp is in the game?

Or is it if there is a warden present in any outnumbered situation you should accept the fact your going to die and not have any way to escape? Not even a chance.

Wardens can also unload a lot of damage in 1 second? Whats your point? Shalk + dive + crushing shock.

This debate is getting pretty old, so I'm going to leave it where it is and let ZOS decide. Truth is, if dive gets nerfed you'd be better off using crushing shock. If I'm forced to use crushing shock then I'll just go play a mag sorc. Something with better defence, better damage, better resource management, cheaper ultimates, 2 executes... I mean, in every way except support roles, the mag sorc is so much better, but people are trying to nerf the one real damage ability that Wardens have.
It's like opening a post demanding a nerf for Argonians.

C0ndor

leepalmer95 wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

OhAmex wrote: »

Dive does need to be dodgeable, as a stam sorc, I was trying to get away by roll dodging but it only hit me in about 3 hits at full health til death.. block should not be the only counter

Don't dodge it

So what are you mean't to do?

We've already discussed blocking it will achieve nothing.

I already answered, The damage coming is slow and predictable, if you know how to avoid it after 2/3 of that the warden will re apply buffs. There you will hurt more. Use cc during the burst combo to avoid part of the damage, don't stand still, move and be unpredictable, roll dodge is still useful to avoid burst, move through the enemy don't let him create distance. Isolate him if he is in group. Use root to avoid the grownd stun, flank it like he's a templar.
"And this kids, is how I melt your warden"

SanTii.92

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that the shalk aren't dodgeable, they just have a pretty small area of effect so it may seem like you dodged it, but you didn't xD

Shalk is indeed undodgeable, like if you get cought roll dodgeing in the Shalk area you'll get hit. Also the dmge is unblockable although the Cc from Deep Fissure is.

Now dive can't be nerfed without some kind of tradeoff. Good players just step aside from most Fissures, if you were to make dive dodgeable you'd pretty much leave mwardens without preassure besides a single dot. Won't work.

Waffennacht

SanTii.92 wrote: »

IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »

I'm fairly certain that the shalk aren't dodgeable, they just have a pretty small area of effect so it may seem like you dodged it, but you didn't xD

Shalk is indeed undodgeable, like if you get cought roll dodgeing in the Shalk area you'll get hit. Also the dmge is unblockable although the Cc from Deep Fissure is.

Now dive can't be nerfed without some kind of tradeoff. Good players just step aside from most Fissures, if you were to make dive dodgeable you'd pretty much leave mwardens without preassure besides a single dot. Won't work.

Nice to know it's not dodgeable, I guess I read it was dodgeable in the pts, but even that could be wrong lol.

Probably just if you roll Dodge you can get out of the aoe easily.

Also agree with the pressure part.

And without Pollen or Buds working consistently the class is missing a huge ability

Chilly-McFreeze

There's the icing on the cake, taken from the pts notes:

Cutting Dive (Dive morph): This morph can now be cast while you are silenced.
Subterranean Assault (Scorch morph): This morph can now be cast while you are silenced.

Reduce the counterplay, cater the noobs.

Alucardo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

There's the icing on the cake, taken from the pts notes:

Cutting Dive (Dive morph): This morph can now be cast while you are silenced.
Subterranean Assault (Scorch morph): This morph can now be cast while you are silenced.

Reduce the counterplay, cater the noobs.

Well in all honesty, magicka builds don't stand in negates anyway because they'll die in an instant. Standing inside a negate throwing birds at people with no shield is just stupid.

Edit: just realised they are the stam morphs. Makes sense they can't be silenced.

apostate9

Glamdring wrote: »

Yeah theese birds are everywhere now, ecpecially when the word has spread that this skill is DA ***. Theese noskilled pugs running in the sanctuary of their group spamming this totally unavoidable skill, that goes through cloak, los, everything. funny thing they think they can kill anyone alone, they get rekt before they even knew what happened. Anyway this skill needs both tweaks and buggfixes but since ZoS does everything to ease the game for the casual pugplayer im sceptical anything will be done about this.

Except....

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Guys i was being sarcastic because that would be broken...

People complain about how strong shield breaker or oblivion dmg is, you think me hitting you for 7k crits through shields is a good idea.

I said it because its comparable to dive going through dodge now. Both would ignore a main defence.

How many threads does it take you to produce sufficient levels of salt about this? They're not making it dodgeble.

Chilly-McFreeze

Alucardo wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

There's the icing on the cake, taken from the pts notes:

Cutting Dive (Dive morph): This morph can now be cast while you are silenced.
Subterranean Assault (Scorch morph): This morph can now be cast while you are silenced.

Reduce the counterplay, cater the noobs.

Well in all honesty, magicka builds don't stand in negates anyway because they'll die in an instant. Standing inside a negate throwing birds at people with no shield is just stupid.

Edit: just realised they are the stam morphs. Makes sense they can't be silenced.

Ah you are right, thought they're talking about the magicka morphs in the hurry. Forgive me senpai.

HeathenDeacon

this thread is lulz.
The only real substance to the arguement here centers around the current viablity of medium armor.
In which case I say Light Armor isn't in that great of place either.

Personally i think If light and medium were on par with Heavy than this skill actually provides much needed parrody to perma dodge and OP shuffle.

Bottom line though of the topic is that if you make Dive dodgeable Warden will need even more of a buff than it already needs.

Another reason Dive isnt OP in the slightest is the fact that without an execute Wardens simply have to spam dive to even try to finish off low health targets half the time.
Regardless of a Dive change, the lack of an execute is the real problem when tweaking Warden.
For example if they made the Bear only needed to be single slotted (w/out the free resurrect), then MAgWarden wouldnt need bird spam. They'd have more sustain dps for both pve and pvp, along with an execute--Basically the 2 things they desperately are missing.

Unfadingsilence

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This might inform the discussion:



What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...

Seems like you need to L2P maybe LOS or if your a NB cloak that SH!T

Unfadingsilence

Krayzie wrote: »

I don't know why people are saying you can cloak it as a defense.

15k magicka and I cannot cloak it?

Run a better build then try maelstrom 2h master bow 5 senche and 5 sheer venom run drink and with a pot you can cloak 15 times fully buffed 4300 weapon damage 3k Stam recovery 1800 magic recovery and run poisons as well with just that and that killer dot from.sheer venom it's GG for most builds out there and sheer venom will proc on the first poison injected "and ithe won't pull you out of stealth" here is what you do Dodge roll "proc senche" cloak heavy poison injected to proc poision and sheer venom cloak ambush= empowerment plus ambush won't break cloak so next surprise attack = major fracture and sets player off balance and triggers the exploiter passive in the CP tree = more damage if your CP is set up for that next incap and executioner if needed then goodnight

leepalmer95

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This might inform the discussion:



What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...

Seems like you need to L2P maybe LOS or if your a NB cloak that SH!T

Its almost like you didn't read what he said.

Stamplar e.g. not a nb
Caught in the open e.g. No line of sight.

You should of blocked and lasted 2-3 more seconds though.

Waffennacht

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This might inform the discussion:



What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...

Seems like you need to L2P maybe LOS or if your a NB cloak that SH!T

Its almost like you didn't read what he said.

Stamplar e.g. not a nb
Caught in the open e.g. No line of sight.

You should of blocked and lasted 2-3 more seconds though.

Stamplar... Caught alone in the wild... With no where to hide... Odds stacked against him...

Only one bird, only one cliff racer, can bring him down...

Stay tuned for another exciting episode of....

Attack of the Wardens!

I actually had something to say but I lost it in the process

Alucardo

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This might inform the discussion:



What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...

Seems like you need to L2P maybe LOS or if your a NB cloak that SH!T

Its almost like you didn't read what he said.

Stamplar e.g. not a nb
Caught in the open e.g. No line of sight.

You should of blocked and lasted 2-3 more seconds though.

Gap close, dawnbreaker, jabs, warden dead. Of course you'll die if you stand out in the open and don't do a damn thing about it while you get pelted by projectiles.

Edziu

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

I also forgot to mention that incredibly cheap ultimate called Incap Strike. You know, the one that increases all of their damage against the target by 15% and decreases their healing? You don't have to worry about damage on a Nightblade. Trust me, they've got that in spades, so let's keep surprise attack out of the equation.

Yet even incapped magicka dive still does more dmg xD

Nightblades have the highest single target burst potential in the game. Wardens throw a bird at you once a second. If they're close enough for deep fissure to land, then the cliff racer will hit like a noodle.

tell this to mag sorc good timing curse, mages wrath, crystal frag/force puse and can add something else like soul assalt etc and everything exploding in same moment in open fight, without stealth surpise which nb need and his only burst is just single skill and proic sets (heavy attack avaible for everyone if from stealth)

Edziu

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

What is with the constant surprise attack this and that. Surprise attack is spammable of ONE class. One class that has like 10 other damage abilities. It can proc almost all proc effects in the game (from viper to redguard stam gain). It increases all your damage to the target by some amount by debuffing their armor. If you are invisible it stuns them and IN CP increases your damage to them by 10% for 4 sec (off balance effect of exploiter star). Also on hit increases your armor and simply having it increases your max HP. While enjoying +10% crit damage bonus of the class + all the other passives that in small ways affect it (like better crit chance or more stealth damage). All this while having worse damage than cutting dive by 3% and having higher stam cost by 11%.
While dive is undodgeable and ranged. Increases all your damage by 2% and heals your for 600hp in PVP, grants you 4 ultimate every 8sec and slotting it gives you 12% more regen. Screaming cliff racer is magicka spammable (so not even comparable to something like surprise attack) with 2% to all damage, 6% to itself in melee, 21% in range. Healing for 600hp in pvp.

Ok. Everybody can prefer more one than the other. But for fs stop comparing them like they can be compared.

We are comparing its damage to surprise attack. It got the same scaler slider as surprise attack yet is ranged and undodgable with 21% more dmg (23%) in we include the animal companions passive.

15% ranged morph
6% magicka from passive
2% animal companion

They can be compared, they are both spammables.

Dive going through roll is the same as surprise attack going through shields.

They cant be compared.
They are spammables from totally different classes for totally different situations. With the % you listed even with different stats used.

Being spammable IS ONE AND ONLY ONE TRAIT that they have in common. Making comparing not just impossible, but totally stupid.

Not to mention you can just list all +damage one class has and completly ignore all the +damage from other and then try to compare them.

Yes one hits harder, costs less, can hit from 38m away, and is undodgeable.

The other one is Surprise Attack

One stuns you and debuffs you
The other one is Dive.

We can play this game all day long.

Who even uses the stun from SA?

Everyone? How else would you stun players? There is no incap strike when you ignore everything else and compare only spammable.

Fear?

Fear is not surprise attack. But I guess that only proved my point. Very quickly after surprise attack stopped being sooo much worse than dive in this spammable face off, you turned to another skill that is not spammable to make your point. Proving you cant compare them if just minor tweaking can totally change the outcome.

but every nb to cc his enemy use fear...really I cant remember when I used my last time stun from surprise attack after playing in eso since beta and also I dont remeber if I have seen atleast once if someone was using surprise attack from stealth to stun his opponent while stun alwas was comming from any attack from stealth or from incap or from just fear lol

apostate9

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This might inform the discussion:



What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...

Seems like you need to L2P maybe LOS or if your a NB cloak that SH!T

Its almost like you didn't read what he said.

Stamplar e.g. not a nb
Caught in the open e.g. No line of sight.

You should of blocked and lasted 2-3 more seconds though.

Gap close, dawnbreaker, jabs, warden dead. Of course you'll die if you stand out in the open and don't do a damn thing about it while you get pelted by projectiles.

No, that's just not possible. Ask @leepalmer95 . Wardens cannot be gap closed, LOSed, or attacked. He thinks (and reposts hourly) that he has been advised to hold block and then read a novel while he dies.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that wardens can be damaged with skills do you? That's just crazy talk...

SodanTok

Edziu wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

What is with the constant surprise attack this and that. Surprise attack is spammable of ONE class. One class that has like 10 other damage abilities. It can proc almost all proc effects in the game (from viper to redguard stam gain). It increases all your damage to the target by some amount by debuffing their armor. If you are invisible it stuns them and IN CP increases your damage to them by 10% for 4 sec (off balance effect of exploiter star). Also on hit increases your armor and simply having it increases your max HP. While enjoying +10% crit damage bonus of the class + all the other passives that in small ways affect it (like better crit chance or more stealth damage). All this while having worse damage than cutting dive by 3% and having higher stam cost by 11%.
While dive is undodgeable and ranged. Increases all your damage by 2% and heals your for 600hp in PVP, grants you 4 ultimate every 8sec and slotting it gives you 12% more regen. Screaming cliff racer is magicka spammable (so not even comparable to something like surprise attack) with 2% to all damage, 6% to itself in melee, 21% in range. Healing for 600hp in pvp.

Ok. Everybody can prefer more one than the other. But for fs stop comparing them like they can be compared.

We are comparing its damage to surprise attack. It got the same scaler slider as surprise attack yet is ranged and undodgable with 21% more dmg (23%) in we include the animal companions passive.

15% ranged morph
6% magicka from passive
2% animal companion

They can be compared, they are both spammables.

Dive going through roll is the same as surprise attack going through shields.

They cant be compared.
They are spammables from totally different classes for totally different situations. With the % you listed even with different stats used.

Being spammable IS ONE AND ONLY ONE TRAIT that they have in common. Making comparing not just impossible, but totally stupid.

Not to mention you can just list all +damage one class has and completly ignore all the +damage from other and then try to compare them.

Yes one hits harder, costs less, can hit from 38m away, and is undodgeable.

The other one is Surprise Attack

One stuns you and debuffs you
The other one is Dive.

We can play this game all day long.

Who even uses the stun from SA?

Everyone? How else would you stun players? There is no incap strike when you ignore everything else and compare only spammable.

Fear?

Fear is not surprise attack. But I guess that only proved my point. Very quickly after surprise attack stopped being sooo much worse than dive in this spammable face off, you turned to another skill that is not spammable to make your point. Proving you cant compare them if just minor tweaking can totally change the outcome.

but every nb to cc his enemy use fear...really I cant remember when I used my last time stun from surprise attack after playing in eso since beta and also I dont remeber if I have seen atleast once if someone was using surprise attack from stealth to stun his opponent while stun alwas was comming from any attack from stealth or from incap or from just fear lol

You missed the whole chain... The point was that you cant compare one skill to another in vacuum. Obviously every NB uses fear.

leepalmer95

apostate9 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

MurderMostFoul wrote: »

This might inform the discussion:



What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...

Seems like you need to L2P maybe LOS or if your a NB cloak that SH!T

Its almost like you didn't read what he said.

Stamplar e.g. not a nb
Caught in the open e.g. No line of sight.

You should of blocked and lasted 2-3 more seconds though.

Gap close, dawnbreaker, jabs, warden dead. Of course you'll die if you stand out in the open and don't do a damn thing about it while you get pelted by projectiles.

No, that's just not possible. Ask @leepalmer95 . Wardens cannot be gap closed, LOSed, or attacked. He thinks (and reposts hourly) that he has been advised to hold block and then read a novel while he dies.

Surely you don't mean to suggest that wardens can be damaged with skills do you? That's just crazy talk...

I sure love forum warriors, always defending their new re rolled classes.

Tell me when your healing on a medium build what do you do? Stand there holding block while getting pelted? Gl out healing those 13k tooltip (+15% from range) pigeon crits. Gets crit by 5-8k pigeon goes to heal, no line of sight what can he do? Hold block and what exactly? Outheal the dps? His main defence is gone.


Why am i even arguing with a random pvp 'raid' leader whose only has 2 characters, oh look you have a warden, guessing you made that recently and is what you play now right?

I'm guessing your here to defend your shiny new easy mode character? You must feel useful spamming broken pigeons from in your zerg all those better players you can now kill when last patch they'd either get away or wipe your zerg.


Do you even have a stam character or are was you one of those tank mag dk's zergers whole only use is to spam fossilize and talons?

Sharee

[nevermind]

Alucardo

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

But dive ignoring dodge is the equivalent of a stamina spammable with similar damage ignoring shields.

I have to disagree there. If Nightblades could ignore shields the world would be on fire. Dive being undodgeable isn't hurting much at all, except those stam builds thinking they can dodge roll out of a 1v10. It's true, maybe they could have been able to do that before, but if you're getting chased by a Warden, then chances are you aren't getting away as easily as you used to.
But if you fight a warden using cliff racer as their spammable in a 1v1, it's not going to do them any favours. By the time a single cliff racer hits a nightblade, they've already unloaded 19k damage in 1.5 seconds on you.

Wardens can also unload a lot of damage in 1 second? Whats your point? Shalk + dive + crushing shock.

tbf it takes 3 seconds for Shalk to fire off, and most people are smart enough to walk behind me or step slightly to the side so they don't get hit.
Getting Warden burst off is A LOT harder than a Nightblade.

Ariades_swe

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