Dive needs to be dodgeable

Joy_Division

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

You realize that you are talking of fighting 10 wardens right? You think you will survive against 5 sorcs with curse and frag? Ora again 5 nb or 5 dk? C'mon guys what are you talking about? In BG i never get more than 2 warden on enemy team, rarely same un cyro. You can easily take down one warden with every stam class in 1v1 if you know how to play, and guess what, 1vx shouldnt exist against player that know how to play, otherwise it means the game is not balanced.

You can survive 10 sorcs easily using LoS and dodgeroll (even magewrath can be dodge rolled), so your argument is invalid. It's called "skill".

Gonna quote your here next time a nerf sorc thread pops up.

SodanTok

Xvorg wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

.

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

You realize that you are talking of fighting 10 wardens right? You think you will survive against 5 sorcs with curse and frag? Ora again 5 nb or 5 dk? C'mon guys what are you talking about? In BG i never get more than 2 warden on enemy team, rarely same un cyro. You can easily take down one warden with every stam class in 1v1 if you know how to play, and guess what, 1vx shouldnt exist against player that know how to play, otherwise it means the game is not balanced.

You can survive 10 sorcs easily using LoS and dodgeroll (even magewrath can be dodge rolled), so your argument is invalid. It's called "skill".

Regarding 1vX, it doesn't depend o the game, but on the player skills. When X is bad, X should die. What shouldn't exist is X being bad and killing everyone just because they spam one button. That's OP. You can't replace skill with 1 button smash.

Imho, Warden in PvP is a class for potatoes with low self esteem (not all of them, but mostly)... let's make dive dodgeable and we will see who's good or bad playing it. Let's make it dodgeable and we will spot immediately the problems with the class. Let's make dive dodgeable while giving the class an identity. Currently it brings nothing to the table but the FotM skills that will be nerfed in the coming patch.

Sidenote: How do you LoS and dodgeroll through 10 curse procs or how do you dodge roll the execute proc of magewrath.

Regarding potatoes. If you die to people spamming one skill, you are as much potato as them. You wont kill good player with undodgeable ability. And good player wont jump into zerg of 30 wardens with expection of surviving. So that makes the skill on potatoes very good vs good players only in situation when good players attracts horde of them (intentionally or unintentionally) and in that case, as with everything in this game -> Numbers win. It is true for every mean of defense in this game (well, except cloak if no potato has anticloak mechanics, but that is exactly same situation as running into zerg of players without any undodgeable skill)

Sorry, but you have taken the word "wrong" to a whole new level:

1. You say "Block is the counter to dive". Ok, then go and block 10 dives. What happens? Yes, each time you block a racer, it depletes your stam pool, not to mention that when blocking, your stam stops regenerating. So you are not only doing dmg to the guy blocking, but also dmging it's stam pool. Since stam heals through Vigor and considering Vigor cost has been increased, there's no point into make this skill unblockable. Blocking (as a defensive strategy) works toghether with other defensive strategies like dodge rolling or shields that allow you to mitigate while regenereating stam, unless the too is build towards permablocking... and even that was nerfed last patch

2. 90% of the time numbers win, but you must leave an open window for the skillful to go through. Currently Dive doesn't allow that window. Is that smart design? No

3. We all know dive is the bait for people to buy warden and feel "heroic"... enjoy it while it lasts, but don't pretend we are gonna buy the "it's balanced" argument here, because it is not.

Sorry to put it this blantly, but there is nothing skillful on dodging RANGED spammable ability. It happens naturally and vigor heals out the rest. Actually dying just because of this ability is definition of not skillful play. I think there leaks some your own inexperience playing warden.

I am not even going to address the 3rd point because it reeks of emotional investment in this.

Waffennacht

The only move I see spammed that results in a win is wrath in BGs.

Lord-Otto

*shieldbreaker flashbacks triggered*

Torbschka

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Zardayne wrote: »

I love how people here go all they do is sit back and spam this ability...it's the damn classes spammable attack! Just like jabs and all of the other BS spammables this game has. I hated spamming jabs repeatedly as a Templar and I hate the damn bird..but guess what..what do you do? My Magden's damage is already subpar unless im in PVE stacking AOES to melt crap down. When I roll Stamden at least i can do some meaningful damage with some dizzying swing and shalk spam. Of course then I have to wait a whopping 3 seconds for shalks to show their ass and by then you guys have spammed me to death with your spammables..Once again...got to spam something..Like a person said above if you want to know the bird's damage down fine, but you had better jack up my damage elsewhere cause it sucks pretty bad overall.

I'm taking suggestions on what spammable you'd like Magdens to use. Force Pulse? It's damage sucks. Spam destructive clench? Perhaps flying blade so you can dodge again...

Here we go.

Yes classes have spammables. But every other spammables has a counter, i can dodge roll crushing shock/frag/snipe, jabs is melee ranged and i can walk through it, same with skills like dizzying. I can reflect frags/snipes/swallow soul. Thats called counter play. If someone if spamming those skills on me i can do something about it, i don't just have to eat it.

Now magdens aren't 'subpar' in pvp, they can easily stack 54+k magicka and get high spell dmg, they can hit very hard.
Also shalks is one of the best pvp skills in the game, its basically and aoe dizzying swing that also goes through roll.

The problem people have with shalk is that it has no counterplay. They could speed up its animation so its as fast as other ranged skills then make it dodgeable. Then you can continue to spam it all you want. People can't dodge roll forever you can cc them through roll with shalk, it'll hit eventually just not 5-7k each time ignoring staminas main defence.

Magdens have the highest dmg instant spamable in the game, its tooltip is comparable to a nb surprise attack but its ranged, has +15% from morph, another 6% from passives and another 4% if high elf. Its also undodgable and unreflectable thats the problem. Can you see the problem yet.

Are u playing a magicka Warden in PvP, CP and no CP?

I do and I can tell, nerf proc sets first before touching the warden. I guarentee u, ur 54k+ magicka "assumption" is a joke if u are focused by 2 proctards, magden is already super hard for solo play. Not even talking about bow bad ur sustain is in that particular setup. I can understand that, in a Xv1 situation, a dive spamming warden is annoying, but so are 2 procguys and perma snare.

Im begging most of the guys here, play it first. There are way more other "op" stuff things, if anything, magden should be buffed. (Not talking about stamden). Magden is in no way "op" or anything, actually the necro max magicka route is very similar to magicka NB (talking about 1vX), how many do u see of them?

Furthermore, u spell a lot of wrong information here, guessing because u ve never player a magden. E.g., how do altmer increasing the tooltip of dive by 4%? PLZ stop it, ty.

Sharee

Dodge this!

Sharee

Xvorg wrote: »

You can survive 10 sorcs easily using LoS and dodgeroll (even magewrath can be dodge rolled), so your argument is invalid. It's called "skill".

Tell me. How easy do you think it would be for a mag warden to survive 10 stamblades?

Right.

So why exactly do you think a stamblade should easily survive 10 mag wardens?

Chilly-McFreeze

Jawasa wrote: »

good stamblade builds can cloak a lot and you can just cloak and los. You have no right to complain. Only dk, templar and warden have the right to complain sorc and nb have perfectly good counters.

Thats why it should be made reflectable instead.

I obviously suffer from a L2P issue here. What counter to dive is stam sorc specific? Grateful for any advice.

Valencer

br0steen wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

br0steen wrote: »

Stratforge wrote: »

br0steen wrote: »

Stratforge wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.

What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?

This. It's so spammable and there's nothing I can do about it. Seriously annoying skill.

Lol it doesn't hit nearly hard enough. If it hit as hard as overload AND was undodgeable then yea probably broken, but it's easy to counter. How? Kill the warden XD

You're lost. It regularly hits for 5-7k on a medium armor build.

Let's say you have 20k health on a medium armor build. So in the time the OP af warden spams 4 of these you can't burst them down?
Throw a vigor, throw a rally, kite a little, cc, there's lots you can do.

After seeing this I got on my warden and tried to literally just spam the move from a keep, you know to see if I was just ignorant and that's all it really took. Everyones right it does it for 5-7k, but I didn't kill anybody. Weird.

Wait, I take that back, there was someone 1vXing around a tree dodge rolling, healing, LOSing, etc and I threw a couple which killed the player. So bird OP for Xv1ing???

The cliff racer isnt a very good skill for a normal 1-on-1 fight unless you're using it as part of a burst setup (with shalks etc). But yes, it's ridiculously strong for zerging someone down. What point are you trying to make here?

I thought it was really clear, my point is your last sentence. Its not OP 1 on 1 but zerging someone down its "too strong." You could make that argument for almost anything. Snares are too strong when being zerged, fear is too strong while being zerged, destro ult is too strong while being zerged, detect pots are too strong while being zerged, roots are too strong while being zerged, snipe is too strong while being zerged, mages wrath is too strong while being zerged, jesus beam is too strong while being zerged, crushing shock is too strong while being zerged, open fields are too strong while being zerged, proxy det is too strong while being zerged, all gap closers are too strong while being zerged.

So if the skill is only too strong while zerging, shouldn't this thread really be about nerfing the proverbial zerg?

There's a difference between all the things you just mentioned and a ranged spammable that is unavoidable and hits harder than a surprise attack....

Jawasa

Streak and if you play in medium you will probably have a bow so major + minor expedition in combination with streak should make it easy to los.

CarefreeX

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Kinda ironic

Complaining about Cliff Racer when a Viper/Tremorscale/Selene/Red Mountain proc often does more damage then it and is free lol

Some things I this game are just silly, Cliff Racer is pretty low down the totem pole though

Yet you can dodge them and each of those skills has a cool down. Cliff Racer / Dive is not dodgeable unless you cloak as a nightblade, but for other classes all you can do is block it. Thus you can't compare it with proc sets. Either place a cool down to the skill or make it dodgeable.

C0ndor

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

You realize that you are talking of fighting 10 wardens right? You think you will survive against 5 sorcs with curse and frag? Ora again 5 nb or 5 dk? C'mon guys what are you talking about? In BG i never get more than 2 warden on enemy team, rarely same un cyro. You can easily take down one warden with every stam class in 1v1 if you know how to play, and guess what, 1vx shouldnt exist against player that know how to play, otherwise it means the game is not balanced.

You can survive 10 sorcs easily using LoS and dodgeroll (even magewrath can be dodge rolled), so your argument is invalid. It's called "skill".

Regarding 1vX, it doesn't depend o the game, but on the player skills. When X is bad, X should die. What shouldn't exist is X being bad and killing everyone just because they spam one button. That's OP. You can't replace skill with 1 button smash.

Imho, Warden in PvP is a class for potatoes with low self esteem (not all of them, but mostly)... let's make dive dodgeable and we will see who's good or bad playing it. Let's make it dodgeable and we will spot immediately the problems with the class. Let's make dive dodgeable while giving the class an identity. Currently it brings nothing to the table but the FotM skills that will be nerfed in the coming patch.

You can LoS cliff racer. When will be dodgable simply warden will use crushing shock, or will never get any kill. Do you realize that the problem is that you can't fight 10 warden and you will never find 10 warden all toghether unless you're fighting at least 30 people? You know that in that case you can also take 10 curses and are undodgable and unblockable? Please show me a video of someone killing 30 people. You can't expect dive dodgable without buffing any other skills (like increasing the duration of buffs), the resource management is one of the worst if you are not a healer or solo play and if you try playng it, you will see it. You make dive dodgable, you kill completly solo play and pvp dps of the class.

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Jawasa wrote: »

I'm more and more liking the keep it undodgable but make it reflectable.

What would that do for someone who isn't a DK or Templar or won't use SnB?

As nb you can cloack, as any other class just attack the warden melee, if you die against a dude just spamming cr you will have some serious problem against other classes too, a single skill is not your problem at all, rally and vigor up can mitigate easily a single button spam. A warden to deal a tons of damage has to cast 3 skill that will land toghether. One is dodgable, one is a ground effect. This mean that you are probably roll dodging in the wrong direction, if you pass behind the warden with the right timing, you will be hit just bg a cliff racer and you have a window of 3 sec to do what you want to the warden. Let cliff racer being dodgable and a warden is completly useless against any other dude Who actually know how to play against it. if you want to be doadged, zeni have to do a huge buff to all the other skills (increase duration of buffs, more damage on all of the abilities)

Have you ever played NB? Stamblade can't cloak all the day, Magblade cam but there are a ton of counters to cloak. How many counters are for Dive?

Zero.

Yes, I have, you need to do it one time and then you can easily create the burst to take down any warden

Valencer

You'd have a point if curse could actually be spammed

Stigant

just going to say this

Dark Flare -> slower travel speed-> dedgeable
Snipe (whichever morph) -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Crystal Frags -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Sunfire -> about the same travel speed -> dedgeable
Stone Fist -> faster travel speed (or maybe just a bit harder to see itcoming?) -> dedgeable

so the whole reasoning for Cliff Racer skill having to be un-dodgeable is BS in my opinion (not to mention It cannot be reflected either) .. that skill has to be consistent with other projectile skills = Dodgeable & Reflectable

all I see mWardens to do is Dampen Magic (or/and Healing Ward) + Leeching Vines -> spam cliff racer for the win .. thats the "not that good ones" and its still very hard to fight them.

The better ones will rotate Deep Fissure + Cliff racer into Crushing shock (all hits at about the same time) and you cant really avoid any of that except maybe the Deep Fissure unless you want to just stand there and block.

edit: I have tried both Stam and Mag setup on my Warden and honestly in 1v1 or small scale PvP, playing warden is way to easy (almost feels like cheating), thanks to this skill.

C0ndor

Stigant wrote: »

just going to say this

Dark Flare -> slower travel speed-> dedgeable
Snipe (whichever morph) -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Crystal Frags -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Sunfire -> about the same travel speed -> dedgeable
Stone Fist -> faster travel speed (or maybe just a bit harder to see itcoming?) -> dedgeable

so the whole reasoning for Cliff Racer skill having to be un-dodgeable is BS in my opinion (not to mention It cannot be reflected either) .. that skill has to be consistent with other projectile skills = Dodgeable & Reflectable

all I see mWardens to do is Dampen Magic (or/and Healing Ward) + Leeching Vines -> spam cliff racer for the win .. thats the "not that good ones" and its still very hard to fight them.

The better ones will rotate Deep Fissure + Cliff racer into Crushing shock (all hits at about the same time) and you cant really avoid any of that except maybe the Deep Fissure unless you want to just stand there and block.

edit: I have tried both Stam and Mag setup on my Warden and honestly in 1v1 or small scale PvP, playing warden is way to easy (almost feels like cheating), thanks to this skill.

all of the skills you mentioned deals more damage and or have other effects. The cliff racer spam is totally useless, and I really can't see how in the world you can loose against one guy or two simply spamming it. I totally agree on the op burst combo, can easily avoided with a dodge roll behind or on the side of the warden (mag dk can easily do it and never get caught by deep fissure) in 1v1 but is really hard to see in a fight with multiple people, but is not hard hitting cause of cliff racer, is hard hitting because of deep fissure.

Valencer wrote: »

You'd have a point if curse could actually be spammed

My curse will override next guy curse? Ok let's change skill, what happen if you get caught by 10 people spamming focused aim? You will dodge all of them e none will hit you? I can be ok with cliff racer dodgable if the dps or the resource management of the class is fixed in other ways but c'mon, say is op because you die if TEN people spam it is really hilarious, this game has worst cancerous inbalanced stuff than this.

Stigant

C0ndor wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

just going to say this

Dark Flare -> slower travel speed-> dedgeable
Snipe (whichever morph) -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Crystal Frags -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Sunfire -> about the same travel speed -> dedgeable
Stone Fist -> faster travel speed (or maybe just a bit harder to see itcoming?) -> dedgeable

so the whole reasoning for Cliff Racer skill having to be un-dodgeable is BS in my opinion (not to mention It cannot be reflected either) .. that skill has to be consistent with other projectile skills = Dodgeable & Reflectable

all I see mWardens to do is Dampen Magic (or/and Healing Ward) + Leeching Vines -> spam cliff racer for the win .. thats the "not that good ones" and its still very hard to fight them.

The better ones will rotate Deep Fissure + Cliff racer into Crushing shock (all hits at about the same time) and you cant really avoid any of that except maybe the Deep Fissure unless you want to just stand there and block.

edit: I have tried both Stam and Mag setup on my Warden and honestly in 1v1 or small scale PvP, playing warden is way to easy (almost feels like cheating), thanks to this skill.

all of the skills you mentioned deals more damage and or have other effects. The cliff racer spam is totally useless, and I really can't see how in the world you can loose against one guy or two simply spamming it. I totally agree on the op burst combo, can easily avoided with a dodge roll behind or on the side of the warden (mag dk can easily do it and never get caught by deep fissure) in 1v1 but is really hard to see in a fight with multiple people, but is not hard hitting cause of cliff racer, is hard hitting because of deep fissure.

Valencer wrote: »

You'd have a point if curse could actually be spammed

My curse will override next guy curse? Ok let's change skill, what happen if you get caught by 10 people spamming focused aim? You will dodge all of them e none will hit you? I can be ok with cliff racer dodgable if the dps or the resource management of the class is fixed in other ways but c'mon, say is op because you die if TEN people spam it is really hilarious, this game has worst cancerous imbalanced stuff than this.

I m not talking about duels ... dueling is a joke feature in a game as poorly balanced and inconsistent as ESO ... I mostly do small scale PvP in Cyrodiil and lately a little bit of BGs ...

and yes it is hard hitting if you weave it with LA and crushing shock .. which is easy AF (I could probably teach my dog to do that) ... its a crutch and poor design choice to make it undodgeable and unreflectable

C0ndor

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

C0ndor

Yeah combo is pretty easy but is not easy to survive if you don't know how to survive, most of warden melt like ice. The ones that don't sit at 50k+ max mag. At this point problem is how shields work and max mag stack, shield stacking etc, and there is no difference between a warden and any other class

Stigant

This reminds me of the time when they made Concealed Weapon and Lava Whip (and its morphs) un-dodgeable back in 2015ish for really no remotely understandable reason, and they reversed that change pretty soon (at least in ZOS terms of interpreting the word soon), except now we have it on a class rocking about 50k magicka (if built decently) and its ranged and it deals more damage based on distance from the target when cast not when it connects ... history repeats XD

Xvorg

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it

The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.

I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)

Strider_Roshin

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it

The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.

I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)

Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.

Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it

TheBonesXXX

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it

The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.

I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)

Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.

Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it

Its not really hard to drop a warden if yo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

...drops mic

Nice try but wrath is dodgeable. It also won't hit you in the back for 5-7k if the EXECUTE won't proc. Pushing an execute mechanic as an excuse for a spam is just bad argumentation since you should know why executes exist and how they work.

aToken wrote: »

I greeing here the skill is already srtpong enough that it can be spammed and low cost. The fact that it cannot be dodged is too much. Warden is already overpowered with passive major mending. NO need to give it unavoidable damage as well.

If people don't know how to beat a Warden all they need to do is understand how shalks works, a Warden by itself isn't going to kill anyone.

J18696

Speed up animation and make it dodgeable its reduculous this isnt already they had to nerf flame lash and surprise attack for the same reason back in the day

BaByDontHurtMe

I'm kinda waiting for the nerf so we can do the #buffcliffracer threads and hopefully it will do a double cliffracer cast kinda like haunting curse

TheBonesXXX

Stigant wrote: »

just going to say this

Dark Flare -> slower travel speed-> dedgeable
Snipe (whichever morph) -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Crystal Frags -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Sunfire -> about the same travel speed -> dedgeable
Stone Fist -> faster travel speed (or maybe just a bit harder to see itcoming?) -> dedgeable

so the whole reasoning for Cliff Racer skill having to be un-dodgeable is BS in my opinion (not to mention It cannot be reflected either) .. that skill has to be consistent with other projectile skills = Dodgeable & Reflectable

all I see mWardens to do is Dampen Magic (or/and Healing Ward) + Leeching Vines -> spam cliff racer for the win .. thats the "not that good ones" and its still very hard to fight them.

The better ones will rotate Deep Fissure + Cliff racer into Crushing shock (all hits at about the same time) and you cant really avoid any of that except maybe the Deep Fissure unless you want to just stand there and block.

edit: I have tried both Stam and Mag setup on my Warden and honestly in 1v1 or small scale PvP, playing warden is way to easy (almost feels like cheating), thanks to this skill.

Dark Flare has an AoE defile... and you can triple cancel it to kill someone in a zerg.

single target defile.. or increased ranged on bow abilities.. can be triple canceled.

same with crystal frags..

Sunfire is a misnomer in PvP..

Stonefist isn't worth a slot in the DK toolkit.

No.. it doesn't have to be consistent with other abilities, the game already gives people easy to manage mitigation in this game.. stupidly easy..

Wardens are not hard to get around.. CC them at an odd angle.. then half their spells do not work.

Chain AoE diving, triple proc set diving.. invincible tanks.. man theres so much worse stuff in the game then to complain about Cliff Racer..

Torbschka

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it

The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.

I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)

Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.

Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it

Its not, stop that trash talking. I play it exusively since morrowind and its way way harder than any other class for 1vX except magicka NB.

U procblades seems really pissed lol

Knootewoot

I think the cliff racer stamina morph should also pick up the player and drop him from a certain height. That would be a joker

Chilly-McFreeze

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it

The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.

I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)

Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.

Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it

Its not really hard to drop a warden if yo

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Vizier wrote: »

...drops mic

Nice try but wrath is dodgeable. It also won't hit you in the back for 5-7k if the EXECUTE won't proc. Pushing an execute mechanic as an excuse for a spam is just bad argumentation since you should know why executes exist and how they work.

aToken wrote: »

I greeing here the skill is already srtpong enough that it can be spammed and low cost. The fact that it cannot be dodged is too much. Warden is already overpowered with passive major mending. NO need to give it unavoidable damage as well.

If people don't know how to beat a Warden all they need to do is understand how shalks works, a Warden by itself isn't going to kill anyone.

Don't know why you quoted me there.

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

Stigant wrote: »

just going to say this

Dark Flare -> slower travel speed-> dedgeable
Snipe (whichever morph) -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Crystal Frags -> slower travel speed -> dedgeable
Sunfire -> about the same travel speed -> dedgeable
Stone Fist -> faster travel speed (or maybe just a bit harder to see itcoming?) -> dedgeable

so the whole reasoning for Cliff Racer skill having to be un-dodgeable is BS in my opinion (not to mention It cannot be reflected either) .. that skill has to be consistent with other projectile skills = Dodgeable & Reflectable

all I see mWardens to do is Dampen Magic (or/and Healing Ward) + Leeching Vines -> spam cliff racer for the win .. thats the "not that good ones" and its still very hard to fight them.

The better ones will rotate Deep Fissure + Cliff racer into Crushing shock (all hits at about the same time) and you cant really avoid any of that except maybe the Deep Fissure unless you want to just stand there and block.

edit: I have tried both Stam and Mag setup on my Warden and honestly in 1v1 or small scale PvP, playing warden is way to easy (almost feels like cheating), thanks to this skill.

Dark Flare has an AoE defile... and you can triple cancel it to kill someone in a zerg.

single target defile.. or increased ranged on bow abilities.. can be triple canceled.

same with crystal frags..

Sunfire is a misnomer in PvP..

Stonefist isn't worth a slot in the DK toolkit.

No.. it doesn't have to be consistent with other abilities, the game already gives people easy to manage mitigation in this game.. stupidly easy..

Wardens are not hard to get around.. CC them at an odd angle.. then half their spells do not work.

Chain AoE diving, triple proc set diving.. invincible tanks.. man theres so much worse stuff in the game then to complain about Cliff Racer..

I think you're missing some points in the skill comparison.
Dark Flare, Snipe, Frags all do have an extra, right. BUT they cost more and, beside a rng procced frag, have a cast time and lower traveling speed.
Stonefist... you say it's too bad to even slot and still, its dodgeable. Also it's rather expensive. Do you see where this is going?
Non of these skills are undodgeable. And I do believe this game's skills should have something like consistency.

If you CC anyone in an odd angle half their spells won't work. This isn't warden-exclusive, nor isn't it like wardens can't cc break. But I get your point, okay.

I strongly disagree about the last paragraph. Hiding one issue behind a load of other issues is a really bad move. Remember any nerf-class x train? Nobody cared about "much worste stuff" like invincible tanks and proc sets then. If something is obviously out of line and overperforming, then it should get worked on. No matter what.

Valencer

C0ndor wrote: »

Valencer wrote: »

You'd have a point if curse could actually be spammed

My curse will override next guy curse? Ok let's change skill, what happen if you get caught by 10 people spamming focused aim? You will dodge all of them e none will hit you? I can be ok with cliff racer dodgable if the dps or the resource management of the class is fixed in other ways but c'mon, say is op because you die if TEN people spam it is really hilarious, this game has worst cancerous inbalanced stuff than this.

I don't think you understand. 10 sorcs cursing me will probably end me really quickly because my health will get eaten away by all the curse explosions. It's problematic that they made it stack, but this thread isn't about curse.

Curse has a 3.5s duration before it detonates. Each individual sorc (in this hypothetical 10 sorcs vs you/me scenario) is unable to spam it. Wardens can spam cliff racer every second.

Noone ever said it's 10 wardens either. Throw 1 warden into a zerg and he'll be throwing 5k completely unavoidable damage at you every second while youre trying to stay alive fighting multiple people. It's an instant death sentence and requires nothing more than spamming 1 ability.

I dont have a problem with cliff racer spam if Im fighting the warden 1-on-1. im not stupid and can put counter-pressure on the warden just fine. It's only really effective in a 1-on-1 fight if he times it with the shalk ability for burst, which seems fine to me. It's the wardens that run in a zerg as a form of safety blanket and spam this unavoidable damage ability with absolute impunity that are a problem - that's the issue with having an uncounterable ranged spammable damage ability.

Strider_Roshin

Torbschka wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it

The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.

I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)

Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.

Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it

Its not, stop that trash talking. I play it exusively since morrowind and its way way harder than any other class for 1vX except magicka NB.

U procblades seems really pissed lol

It has a higher skill cap than most, but it is certainly not weak. Wrecking groups as a Warden is stupid easy with scorch. And the undodgeable dive makes securing kills very easy since no one can play defensively against you. No one in medium armor that is.

Also I'm certainly not a proc blade.