Dive needs to be dodgeable

RinaldoGandolphi

Kinda ironic

Complaining about Cliff Racer when a Viper/Tremorscale/Selene/Red Mountain proc often does more damage then it and is free lol

Some things I this game are just silly, Cliff Racer is pretty low down the totem pole though

Lord-Otto

Biro123 wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Can't you just cloak it?

Don't know for sure, but I'd guess that the slow travel time would mean that if you cast before the target cloaks - then he cloaks before it lands - it would still hit and pull out of cloak?

Was expecting Cloak to force miss it. Haven't tested, though.

Izaki

Lexxypwns wrote: »

And to think, there were lots of people asking for buffs to cutting dive on PTS just because it doesn't have an extra effect

It should have an extra effect

Strider_Roshin

Anti_Virus wrote: »

I think dive should have a faster animation but should be dodgable. Also I wish cutting dive had an additional effect to it.

My thoughts exactly. Maybe have it deal additional damage to enemies within 15 meters?

I do believe it needs to be more expensive though. It really shouldn't be cheaper than Surprise Attack IMO.

Strider_Roshin

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Kinda ironic

Complaining about Cliff Racer when a Viper/Tremorscale/Selene/Red Mountain proc often does more damage then it and is free lol

Some things I this game are just silly, Cliff Racer is pretty low down the totem pole though

I would hope that ZOS is capable at addressing multiple issues at once. Proc sets being OP in PvP isn't an excuse to disregard every other imbalance.

KingJ

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

RinaldoGandolphi wrote: »

Kinda ironic

Complaining about Cliff Racer when a Viper/Tremorscale/Selene/Red Mountain proc often does more damage then it and is free lol

Some things I this game are just silly, Cliff Racer is pretty low down the totem pole though

I would hope that ZOS is capable at addressing multiple issues at once. Proc sets being OP in PvP isn't an excuse to disregard every other imbalance.

We all know that's what's ZOs is going to do just Nerf proc sets.

Ocelot9x

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

Strider_Roshin

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

Nice "too dumb didn't think" response.

leepalmer95

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

TL:DR why doesn't this skill have any counterplay at all.

Wardens: Leave out 0 counterplay skill i can finally do something to good players now when i chase with with 10 others.

SodanTok

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

TL:DR why doesn't this skill have any counterplay at all.

Wardens: Leave out 0 counterplay skill i can finally do something to good players now when i chase with with 10 others.

Why do you keep repeating the no counterplay bs. You can think whatever about the 'undodgeability' , but all counterplays except dodge and reflect are still working against it.
I would rather be hunted by 5 wardens spamming this, than 2 sorcs with curse and soul assault.

KingJ

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

TL:DR why doesn't this skill have any counterplay at all.

Wardens: Leave out 0 counterplay skill i can finally do something to good players now when i chase with with 10 others.

Why do you keep repeating the no counterplay bs. You can think whatever about the 'undodgeability' , but all counterplays except dodge and reflect are still working against it.
I would rather be hunted by 5 wardens spamming this, than 2 sorcs with curse and soul assault.

For a medium armor build our built in defense is Dodge roll. We have to build for high regen to actually use that defense successfully. We can't block for a long time because it negates that stam regen.

Now what means of counter play does a stambuild have? Before you answer their 4 means of counterplaying a skill in the game.Dodge roll,Shields,block and reflect.

Stam builds can't Shield,Block negates stam regen and more and more skills are being made un dodge able.This skill can not be reflected.So all stam builds cab do is block and hope HOTs can save them.

leepalmer95

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

TL:DR why doesn't this skill have any counterplay at all.

Wardens: Leave out 0 counterplay skill i can finally do something to good players now when i chase with with 10 others.

Why do you keep repeating the no counterplay bs. You can think whatever about the 'undodgeability' , but all counterplays except dodge and reflect are still working against it.
I would rather be hunted by 5 wardens spamming this, than 2 sorcs with curse and soul assault.

Because it doesn't? Your asking medium builds to block every racer as a means to counterplay? Because thats the only way.

This skill is the equivalent of surprise attack ignoring shields, block or stoping a magplar being able to use breath to heal. It has no counters.

Just speed up the animation so its like a usual instant skill and make it dodgeable.

SodanTok

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

TL:DR why doesn't this skill have any counterplay at all.

Wardens: Leave out 0 counterplay skill i can finally do something to good players now when i chase with with 10 others.

Why do you keep repeating the no counterplay bs. You can think whatever about the 'undodgeability' , but all counterplays except dodge and reflect are still working against it.
I would rather be hunted by 5 wardens spamming this, than 2 sorcs with curse and soul assault.

Because it doesn't? Your asking medium builds to block every racer as a means to counterplay? Because thats the only way.

This skill is the equivalent of surprise attack ignoring shields, block or stoping a magplar being able to use breath to heal. It has no counters.

Just speed up the animation so its like a usual instant skill and make it dodgeable.

So there is counterplay, it just dont fit your particular build. And no, dont take it in bad way... I play medium build and I played it all during past heavy meta (that imo still is not over). Get more armor, get better at healing and LoSing and then complain about the real issue -> blocking is *** stupid on medium armor. Blocking should be viable choice of defense (as in hold block for 0.5sec during which you get hit ba ability like dive) while not costing you 2k regen proc and 2k stam block cost. (Translated around 20k stamina loss during soul assault).

Having to eat each cliff racer for full damage (or spend 4k stamina blocking it) is no less or more stupid than doing absolute zero damage because someone spends 90% of the fight in dodge roll animation.

And no, speeding the animation wont solve anything. It is still ranged skill and such skills hit distanced target only if they are unaware (hello miat addon) or they let themself get hit (well, or lag). Warden would go from playable to unplayable just like that.

Zardayne

I love how people here go all they do is sit back and spam this ability...it's the damn classes spammable attack! Just like jabs and all of the other BS spammables this game has. I hated spamming jabs repeatedly as a Templar and I hate the damn bird..but guess what..what do you do? My Magden's damage is already subpar unless im in PVE stacking AOES to melt crap down. When I roll Stamden at least i can do some meaningful damage with some dizzying swing and shalk spam. Of course then I have to wait a whopping 3 seconds for shalks to show their ass and by then you guys have spammed me to death with your spammables..Once again...got to spam something..Like a person said above if you want to know the bird's damage down fine, but you had better jack up my damage elsewhere cause it sucks pretty bad overall.

I'm taking suggestions on what spammable you'd like Magdens to use. Force Pulse? It's damage sucks. Spam destructive clench? Perhaps flying blade so you can dodge again...

leepalmer95

Zardayne wrote: »

I love how people here go all they do is sit back and spam this ability...it's the damn classes spammable attack! Just like jabs and all of the other BS spammables this game has. I hated spamming jabs repeatedly as a Templar and I hate the damn bird..but guess what..what do you do? My Magden's damage is already subpar unless im in PVE stacking AOES to melt crap down. When I roll Stamden at least i can do some meaningful damage with some dizzying swing and shalk spam. Of course then I have to wait a whopping 3 seconds for shalks to show their ass and by then you guys have spammed me to death with your spammables..Once again...got to spam something..Like a person said above if you want to know the bird's damage down fine, but you had better jack up my damage elsewhere cause it sucks pretty bad overall.

I'm taking suggestions on what spammable you'd like Magdens to use. Force Pulse? It's damage sucks. Spam destructive clench? Perhaps flying blade so you can dodge again...

Here we go.

Yes classes have spammables. But every other spammables has a counter, i can dodge roll crushing shock/frag/snipe, jabs is melee ranged and i can walk through it, same with skills like dizzying. I can reflect frags/snipes/swallow soul. Thats called counter play. If someone if spamming those skills on me i can do something about it, i don't just have to eat it.

Now magdens aren't 'subpar' in pvp, they can easily stack 54+k magicka and get high spell dmg, they can hit very hard.
Also shalks is one of the best pvp skills in the game, its basically and aoe dizzying swing that also goes through roll.

The problem people have with shalk is that it has no counterplay. They could speed up its animation so its as fast as other ranged skills then make it dodgeable. Then you can continue to spam it all you want. People can't dodge roll forever you can cc them through roll with shalk, it'll hit eventually just not 5-7k each time ignoring staminas main defence.

Magdens have the highest dmg instant spamable in the game, its tooltip is comparable to a nb surprise attack but its ranged, has +15% from morph, another 6% from passives and another 4% if high elf. Its also undodgable and unreflectable thats the problem. Can you see the problem yet.

Waffennacht

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Zardayne wrote: »

I love how people here go all they do is sit back and spam this ability...it's the damn classes spammable attack! Just like jabs and all of the other BS spammables this game has. I hated spamming jabs repeatedly as a Templar and I hate the damn bird..but guess what..what do you do? My Magden's damage is already subpar unless im in PVE stacking AOES to melt crap down. When I roll Stamden at least i can do some meaningful damage with some dizzying swing and shalk spam. Of course then I have to wait a whopping 3 seconds for shalks to show their ass and by then you guys have spammed me to death with your spammables..Once again...got to spam something..Like a person said above if you want to know the bird's damage down fine, but you had better jack up my damage elsewhere cause it sucks pretty bad overall.

I'm taking suggestions on what spammable you'd like Magdens to use. Force Pulse? It's damage sucks. Spam destructive clench? Perhaps flying blade so you can dodge again...

Here we go.

Yes classes have spammables. But every other spammables has a counter, i can dodge roll crushing shock/frag/snipe, jabs is melee ranged and i can walk through it, same with skills like dizzying. I can reflect frags/snipes/swallow soul. Thats called counter play. If someone if spamming those skills on me i can do something about it, i don't just have to eat it.

Now magdens aren't 'subpar' in pvp, they can easily stack 54+k magicka and get high spell dmg, they can hit very hard.
Also shalks is one of the best pvp skills in the game, its basically and aoe dizzying swing that also goes through roll.

The problem people have with shalk is that it has no counterplay. They could speed up its animation so its as fast as other ranged skills then make it dodgeable. Then you can continue to spam it all you want. People can't dodge roll forever you can cc them through roll with shalk, it'll hit eventually just not 5-7k each time ignoring staminas main defence.

Magdens have the highest dmg instant spamable in the game, its tooltip is comparable to a nb surprise attack but its ranged, has +15% from morph, another 6% from passives and another 4% if high elf. Its also undodgable and unreflectable thats the problem. Can you see the problem yet.

Wouldn't the counter be block? And if your build can't block, sounds like a you problem

leepalmer95

Waffennacht wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Zardayne wrote: »

I love how people here go all they do is sit back and spam this ability...it's the damn classes spammable attack! Just like jabs and all of the other BS spammables this game has. I hated spamming jabs repeatedly as a Templar and I hate the damn bird..but guess what..what do you do? My Magden's damage is already subpar unless im in PVE stacking AOES to melt crap down. When I roll Stamden at least i can do some meaningful damage with some dizzying swing and shalk spam. Of course then I have to wait a whopping 3 seconds for shalks to show their ass and by then you guys have spammed me to death with your spammables..Once again...got to spam something..Like a person said above if you want to know the bird's damage down fine, but you had better jack up my damage elsewhere cause it sucks pretty bad overall.

I'm taking suggestions on what spammable you'd like Magdens to use. Force Pulse? It's damage sucks. Spam destructive clench? Perhaps flying blade so you can dodge again...

Here we go.

Yes classes have spammables. But every other spammables has a counter, i can dodge roll crushing shock/frag/snipe, jabs is melee ranged and i can walk through it, same with skills like dizzying. I can reflect frags/snipes/swallow soul. Thats called counter play. If someone if spamming those skills on me i can do something about it, i don't just have to eat it.

Now magdens aren't 'subpar' in pvp, they can easily stack 54+k magicka and get high spell dmg, they can hit very hard.
Also shalks is one of the best pvp skills in the game, its basically and aoe dizzying swing that also goes through roll.

The problem people have with shalk is that it has no counterplay. They could speed up its animation so its as fast as other ranged skills then make it dodgeable. Then you can continue to spam it all you want. People can't dodge roll forever you can cc them through roll with shalk, it'll hit eventually just not 5-7k each time ignoring staminas main defence.

Magdens have the highest dmg instant spamable in the game, its tooltip is comparable to a nb surprise attack but its ranged, has +15% from morph, another 6% from passives and another 4% if high elf. Its also undodgable and unreflectable thats the problem. Can you see the problem yet.

Wouldn't the counter be block? And if your build can't block, sounds like a you problem

Standing there blocking isn't counterplay, especially when they nerfed blocking again. Other skills i can avoid the damage all together, i can't with this one.

What are you mean't to do if you have a few people on your and your trying to line of sight or such, theres a warden spamming cliff racer on you for 5k~ a go? Am i mean't to just stand there blocking? What will that achieve, apart from cost me resources, i'll still take damage and do nothing in return. You can block anything but if your in medium you'll dodge roll it, may as well spend less resources and avoid the damage than lose mobility, more resources and take damage.

Can we have the stamina morph just go through shields, people seem to think a skill ignoring staminas main defence is fine can we have the stam morph ignore magicka? Or just stop magicka healing when hit by one for 4s?. Because who needs counterplay.

Jawasa

Loads of people play la with no shields and use selectiv block/dodge and heals. So wouldnt medium use the same counters? I mean every1 that cant dodge will still die to 10 wardens even if it gets nerfed?

C0ndor

You realize that you are talking of fighting 10 wardens right? You think you will survive against 5 sorcs with curse and frag? Ora again 5 nb or 5 dk? C'mon guys what are you talking about? In BG i never get more than 2 warden on enemy team, rarely same un cyro. You can easily take down one warden with every stam class in 1v1 if you know how to play, and guess what, 1vx shouldnt exist against player that know how to play, otherwise it means the game is not balanced.

IZZEFlameLash

I have to agree with the block crowd. Even magsorcs sometimes use block as counter to certain offensive stuffs even though they can shield stack. And those sorcs are not really built for prolonged blocking. So... why can't medium armored builds do that with their larger stamina pool?

Rolly polly builds are at large counterless as long as they can dodge roll because everything that is not aoe will not hit reliably unless the skill goes off right after the finish of dodge roll animation. And the cost of skills that were dodged still being charged. I don't know... it's about time rolly polly builds had a reliable counter. If rolly polly wasn't that strong before, I don't think many people who are considered skilled would have used (and still use) stam builds, using dodge rolls as main damage mitigation.

Besides,I think the logic behind Wrobel's decision is that Warden is just magically marking targets for the cliff racer to charge at like guided missiles.

Chilly-McFreeze

IZZESparkling wrote: »

I have to agree with the block crowd. Even magsorcs sometimes use block as counter to certain offensive stuffs even though they can shield stack. And those sorcs are not really built for prolonged blocking. So... why can't medium armored builds do that with their larger stamina pool?


Besides,I think the logic behind Wrobel's decision is that Warden is just magically marking targets for the cliff racer to charge at like guided missiles.

It's one thing to block a frag, dizzying, etc. from time to time but it's a whole different thing to be asked to block a skill that get's spammed back to back. I can also turn your argument around and say: "even magsorcs sometimes use dodge roll as counter to certain offensive stuffs even though they can shield stack. And those sorcs are not really built for prolonged dodging. Just because you make use of it occasionally doesn't mean it's the go-to reaction for everyone else. Not to mention your magsorcs have a whole nother line of defense in magickal wards, don't they?

Vizier

...drops mic

Chilly-McFreeze

Vizier wrote: »

...drops mic

Nice try but wrath is dodgeable. It also won't hit you in the back for 5-7k if the EXECUTE won't proc. Pushing an execute mechanic as an excuse for a spam is just bad argumentation since you should know why executes exist and how they work.

Valencer

IZZESparkling wrote: »

I have to agree with the block crowd. Even magsorcs sometimes use block as counter to certain offensive stuffs even though they can shield stack. And those sorcs are not really built for prolonged blocking. So... why can't medium armored builds do that with their larger stamina pool?

Rolly polly builds are at large counterless as long as they can dodge roll because everything that is not aoe will not hit reliably unless the skill goes off right after the finish of dodge roll animation. And the cost of skills that were dodged still being charged. I don't know... it's about time rolly polly builds had a reliable counter. If rolly polly wasn't that strong before, I don't think many people who are considered skilled would have used (and still use) stam builds, using dodge rolls as main damage mitigation.

Besides,I think the logic behind Wrobel's decision is that Warden is just magically marking targets for the cliff racer to charge at like guided missiles.

I have no idea what youre even on about. Pre-morrowind most non-NB stamina builds were heavy armour builds relying on block as primary defense.

Glamdring

I can tell not many played a medium armour stam nb. Block are used during fight against 1-3 enemys. When u trying to get away from multiple enemys, Los and repositioning using block just make u live 2 secs more. And this undodgeable OP newbie skill hits u for 4-5k and u cant even see it comming.

Sharee

Glamdring wrote: »

I can tell not many played a medium armour stam nb. Block are used during fight against 1-3 enemys. When u trying to get away from multiple enemys, Los and repositioning using block just make u live 2 secs more. And this undodgeable OP newbie skill hits u for 4-5k and u cant even see it comming.

Gotta love how medium armor stam NB's got so spoiled by the mostly-uncounterable dodge roll that they think it's their god-given right to be able to get away from multiple enemies, and any attack that cuts through their permarolling is a blasphemy to be banished to the seventh hell.

Hello? Try to get away from multiple enemies as a magicka warden, then you'll get a whole new perspective

Jawasa

I'm more and more liking the keep it undodgable but make it reflectable.

Chilly-McFreeze

Jawasa wrote: »

I'm more and more liking the keep it undodgable but make it reflectable.

What would that do for someone who isn't a DK or Templar or won't use SnB?

Jawasa

How do dodge help any1 that isnt stam? Nb can cloak it only one class lacks counter and sorc can shield it or use streak to out range or los.

dodgehopper_ESO

KingJ wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Ocelot9x wrote: »

Tldr: Why I can't avoid any form of damage while rolling waiting for my procs cooldowns?
The only time I had a problem with a warden was because he was using viper/tremorscale.

TL:DR why doesn't this skill have any counterplay at all.

Wardens: Leave out 0 counterplay skill i can finally do something to good players now when i chase with with 10 others.

Why do you keep repeating the no counterplay bs. You can think whatever about the 'undodgeability' , but all counterplays except dodge and reflect are still working against it.
I would rather be hunted by 5 wardens spamming this, than 2 sorcs with curse and soul assault.

For a medium armor build our built in defense is Dodge roll. We have to build for high regen to actually use that defense successfully. We can't block for a long time because it negates that stam regen.

Now what means of counter play does a stambuild have? Before you answer their 4 means of counterplaying a skill in the game.Dodge roll,Shields,block and reflect.

Stam builds can't Shield,Block negates stam regen and more and more skills are being made un dodge able.This skill can not be reflected.So all stam builds cab do is block and hope HOTs can save them.

I'm still very much against the loss of stamina regeneration while blocking. They really should have handled that differently.