Dive needs to be dodgeable

timidobserver

I'm okay with dive. There are more annoying things in ESO PvP.

GreenSoup2HoT

olsborg wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Medium armor is the weakest armor class currently and having this move be undodgeable is a gross disregard towards balance.

Yea pretty much sums it up. There are already a plethura of hardhitting abilities (ultimates) that arent dodgeable, dodge is the medium armor user first and foremost method of avoiding dmg. Blocking basicly shuts down the whole point of medium armor builds...stamina regen. This is grossly penalizing medium armor when medium armor builds are already pretty lackluster if you compare them to heavy armor and light armor-shieldspammy.

Annnd then blocking is tied to console roll dodge lol. every roll dodge or bash can prevent a regen tick!

i think im going to transistion to heavy armor soon on my stamblade. it just feels so much better.

Ahzek

As a 0 procc, 6 piece medium stam sorc dive is one of the most annoying abilities for me to deal with. I can usually manage in 1v1s, but as soon as another, even remotely competent (or proccy) player enters the fight im pretty much forced into pure defense, which obviously doesnt work cause medium.
This is from a BG perspective.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sylosi wrote: »

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill, warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, it is just, well...

You're saying the whole class is bad so an OP ability is justified? If an ability is too strong it is never justified. Don't even try to get this across. Tone the cliffracer down and pump up something else to make a class balanced. No one likes an one-trick pony.

Remember when people grabed the pitchfork to go after magsorcs' OP damage despite arguments where made that said magsorcs have to line up an highly expectable burst? Nobody cared about that. The fact that dive has a travel time lets you line up this burst with some other skills. It was already mentioned in this thread.

And magwards have access to an reliable cc. Just like e.g. a stam sorc has access to a reliable cc: through weapon skills. Destructive Reach? Every mag class can use these destrostaff skills.

Also, spamming this cliffracer nonsense back to back is high pressure. Since it surley doesn't hit like a wet noodle.

Joy_Division

Just another typical nerf thread that fails to look at the larger context; made by a poster who has a history of complaining about how ZoS has overnerfed stam.

I dislike uncounterable skills, but the Mag warden has the worst dps in the game, no execute, and its only CC is a telegraphed delayed cast. It needs something or people will just quit the class and roll a procblade or a sorc.

But no, let's nerf it because people get pissed off when they get 1vXed.

Kilandros

Joy_Division wrote: »

Just another typical nerf thread that fails to look at the larger context; made by a poster who has a history of complaining about how ZoS has overnerfed stam.

I dislike uncounterable skills, but the Mag warden has the worst dps in the game, no execute, and its only CC is a telegraphed delayed cast. It needs something or people will just quit the class and roll a procblade or a sorc.

But no, let's nerf it because people get pissed off when they get 1vXed.

What? Dive is basically a Xv1ers dream. There's basically zero counterplay to the skill. We both know raids are using it to focus priority targets because there's no counter. It's not like Wardens are hurting in PvP currently. How many Wardens is VE running now?

Sylosi

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill, warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, it is just, well...

You're saying the whole class is bad so an OP ability is justified?

Not at all, I'm saying that looking at a skill in isolation is frankly moronic, because that is not how game design or balance works, you have to look at the 'whole', and in the case of magika warden there are justifiable reasons and a logic as to why that skill was made undodgeable, it fits with how that class is designed and is needed given the limitations of the class, and no that isn't a class "being bad", all classes should have limitations that is part of good design.

On a sidenote, some of the responses on this thread just show why devs rarely take notice of players, people complaining about a skill when they have multiple opponents on them, as if that is the basis for balance.

Kilandros

Sylosi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill, warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, it is just, well...

You're saying the whole class is bad so an OP ability is justified?

Not at all, I'm saying that looking at a skill in isolation is frankly moronic, because that is not how game design or balance works, you have to look at the 'whole', and in the case of magika warden there are justifiable reasons and a logic as to why that skill was made undodgeable, it fits with how that class is designed and is needed given the limitations of the class, and no that isn't a class "being bad", all classes should have limitations that is part of good design.

You say things like "look at the whole" and that "there are justifiable reasons and a logic as to why [Cliff Racer] was made undodgeable," but you give absolutely zero explanation as to what precisely those "justifiable reasons" are or how they fit into the whole.

I can make equally vague and vapid statements: If you look at class balance as a whole, and how the classes interact with each other and the global skill lines, there are persuasive and justifiable reasons why this skill should be dodgeable. To think otherwise is frankly moronic and ignores the totality of class vision and how the game plays.

If you want to support the skill being undodgeable, fine. But don't post drivel like that when other players are taking the time to create reasoned arguments in support of it being dodgeable.

Lexxypwns

And to think, there were lots of people asking for buffs to cutting dive on PTS just because it doesn't have an extra effect

Sylosi

Kilandros wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill, warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, it is just, well...

You're saying the whole class is bad so an OP ability is justified?

Not at all, I'm saying that looking at a skill in isolation is frankly moronic, because that is not how game design or balance works, you have to look at the 'whole', and in the case of magika warden there are justifiable reasons and a logic as to why that skill was made undodgeable, it fits with how that class is designed and is needed given the limitations of the class, and no that isn't a class "being bad", all classes should have limitations that is part of good design.

You say things like "look at the whole" and that "there are justifiable reasons and a logic as to why [Cliff Racer] was made undodgeable," but you give absolutely zero explanation as to what precisely those "justifiable reasons" are or how they fit into the whole.

I can make equally vague and vapid statements: If you look at class balance as a whole, and how the classes interact with each other and the global skill lines, there are persuasive and justifiable reasons why this skill should be dodgeable. To think otherwise is frankly moronic and ignores the totality of class vision and how the game plays.

If you want to support the skill being undodgeable, fine. But don't post drivel like that when other players are taking the time to create reasoned arguments in support of it being dodgeable.

Here is some advice next time you jump into a conversation, try reading all the posts going back to the start of that conversation (hint: where you will find the reasons were stated), that way you will look less of a tool, and the world won't have to endure, to use your word, your 'drivel'.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sylosi wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill, warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, it is just, well...

You're saying the whole class is bad so an OP ability is justified?

Not at all, I'm saying that looking at a skill in isolation is frankly moronic, because that is not how game design or balance works, you have to look at the 'whole', and in the case of magika warden there are justifiable reasons and a logic as to why that skill was made undodgeable, it fits with how that class is designed and is needed given the limitations of the class, and no that isn't a class "being bad", all classes should have limitations that is part of good design.

On a sidenote, some of the responses on this thread just show why devs rarely take notice of players, people complaining about a skill when they have multiple opponents on them, as if that is the basis for balance.

And I said something like then alter/ buff/ change some other aspects that make wardens lackluster instead of giving them an ability with zero counterplay. I also said that magickal wardens do have access to an reliable cc - in the destro staff skill line. Many classes don't have everything in their class skills, but that's where weapon skills fill the gaps.
Limitiations are the key word. Where is the limitation in an low cost, fairly hard hitting, unreflectable, undodgeable spam? It surely isn't the travel time since it remains undodgable + it allows to easily line up burst. This isn't balanced.

Rhetorical question: if a new class get's introduced that doesn't has cc, group utility, debuffs etc but one uncounterable I-Win ability, would that still fit in your argument of whole-class-balance? I know, hyperbole much. It is just unreasonable to justify an ability that stands out so much with the lackluster appearance of other skills.

Also, I think there is a misconception. This isn't purely a pain in 1vX situations. But in all situations where there is YvX and X>1. If you take part in XvX you will see how annoying it is to have a handfull of guys spam uncouterable skills. It's just a matter of time until more players will jump on this low-skill behaviour.

Chilly-McFreeze

Double Post -.-

Jawasa

But medium armour is not weak at all this patch. Atm the strongest build for 1vx is prob medium nb. The 3 Times' i've been to no CP cyro after morrowind i myself run with 1-2 stamblades and We allways end up vs stamblade solo player zergs.

But i do agree you should be abele to dodge but cut it's travel time by 2/3. Atm pol and birds are insane in combination.

Strider_Roshin

Jawasa wrote: »

But medium armour is not weak at all this patch. Atm the strongest build for 1vx is prob medium nb. The 3 Times' i've been to no CP cyro after morrowind i myself run with 1-2 stamblades and We allways end up vs stamblade solo player zergs.

But i do agree you should be abele to dodge but cut it's travel time by 2/3. Atm pol and birds are insane in combination.

Medium armor proc blade < Heavy armor proc DK.

Proc blades are annoying I agree, but these heavy armored proc DKs are even worse.

Either way these proc sets are going to be the death of PvP if they don't remove them.

MurderMostFoul

This skill wrecks me as a medium armor Stamplar. I've got no Cloak to get out of it, and if I CC, they can just break free and recast.

Really the only viable option is running away <- That should only be true for Ultimates, not a class spammable.

akray21

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Jawasa wrote: »

But medium armour is not weak at all this patch. Atm the strongest build for 1vx is prob medium nb. The 3 Times' i've been to no CP cyro after morrowind i myself run with 1-2 stamblades and We allways end up vs stamblade solo player zergs.

But i do agree you should be abele to dodge but cut it's travel time by 2/3. Atm pol and birds are insane in combination.

Medium armor proc blade < Heavy armor proc DK.

Proc blades are annoying I agree, but these heavy armored proc DKs are even worse.

Either way these proc sets are going to be the death of PvP if they don't remove them.

As a stam NB I won't mind if procs get nerfed, I already have my backup build ready, and it will reach the same damage numbers without sacrificing anything.

Strider_Roshin

akray21 wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Jawasa wrote: »

But medium armour is not weak at all this patch. Atm the strongest build for 1vx is prob medium nb. The 3 Times' i've been to no CP cyro after morrowind i myself run with 1-2 stamblades and We allways end up vs stamblade solo player zergs.

But i do agree you should be abele to dodge but cut it's travel time by 2/3. Atm pol and birds are insane in combination.

Medium armor proc blade < Heavy armor proc DK.

Proc blades are annoying I agree, but these heavy armored proc DKs are even worse.

Either way these proc sets are going to be the death of PvP if they don't remove them.

As a stam NB I won't mind if procs get nerfed, I already have my backup build ready, and it will reach the same damage numbers without sacrificing anything.

I know how powerful these proc sets are, but I refuse to use them. It's a pride thing. If I kill my opponent, I want it to be due to the fact that I outplayed my opponent, not because my armor gives me all this free damage.

If my gear is killing my opponents for me then what's the point of PvP?

Xvorg

Sarousse wrote: »

The ability won't be nerfed. It's the only existing counter to permadodging-sprinting-cancerblades that are spreading through Cyrodiil faster than the warden's growing swarm.

What about non permadodging-sprinting-cancerblades?

Xvorg

Vaoh wrote: »

Sylosi wrote: »

Seems reasonably balanced to me, you have to look at the class as a whole when considering these things, not just the skill in isolation, because that is how balance works.

So let's take magika warden as an example, firstly you have to consider warden does not have an execute, secondly that it has the lowest sustained damage in the game, thirdly its only hard CC (Deep Fissure) is on a 3 sec delay and has a pretty obvious animation (HInt: look at the blue circle that contracts around their feet) and fourthly the animation of dive itself is one of the most obvious in the game, has a small delay and starts not from the caster like other skills but from some distance behind the caster so has a long travel time (giving even slower players time to react).

So what this means is you have a class that can't put out the the level of sustained pressure many builds can, has no execute, can't reliably hard CC to drain stamina / have them stunned/knocked down to easily land the burst and the skill in question is very telegraphed.

So to kill warden has to land its burst combo, which unlike a lot of the faceroll in this game (cough - proc sets) actually requires at least some skill to land and is actually avoidable to the point if you could dodge roll Dive in addition to already being able to block it, throw up a shield, etc, then well, Warden would never kill anything and have zero sustained pressure, because of the aforementioned factors and how relatively easy they are for an even average player to react to something as obvious as dive.

But then I guess when you have a forum where people complain about multiple players hitting them in relation to "balance" or can't even work out that a skill is blockable, well...

^^^^ yep.

People don't worry about these things.

They coincidentally do not play the class and just run their typical proc cancer builds. When they die to the occational Warden their first reaction is to complain.

All of the strongest Stamina Wardens do not even slot Cutting Dive, because there are far better ways to build. Cutting Dive is essentially for mainhand Warden Bow users, which are easy to kill.

Magicka Wardens have two skills for dealing damage, both of which are highly telegraphed. They also have low raw DPS. Taking away this part of Dive would leave Wardens literally useless.

....and people still have the nerve to complain about Magblades needing buffs, while asking to gut Mag Wardens in PvP (the only content they're remotely viable in).

smh

I disagree with you in this one... mDKs have one range ability for dealing dmg (which is not even good), even with that, they go to destro skill line to use other 2 skills.

So, the animation is slow? What about pairing it with force pulse or destro reach ans any ranged mDK does?

revonine

All I know is seeing a pigeon on my window this morning triggered a PTSD flashback.

Jawasa

I Def prefer to go up against heavy armour dk over procblades. No incap, fear or cloak. But We are not here to talk about stamblades.

Let people dodge the skill but something needs to be changed.

SodanTok

Lexxypwns wrote: »

And to think, there were lots of people asking for buffs to cutting dive on PTS just because it doesn't have an extra effect

It still needs buff. The fact it goes through dodge does not change how it barely tickles anyone else or that mag morph is like 30% more damage.

CyrusArya

This skill favors xv1 ing zergbads so much. Literally gotta do nothing but sit back and spam one button. Probably why ZOS made it the way it is, an easy noob cannon for all the new players they anticipated would join the game. To no surprise of mine, the type of players who love to hide behind the faction stack or guild Zerg and focus down solo/small group players are fully supportive and passionate about the ability and class.

That being said I don't know that it should be nerfed, because the cliff racer being the primary ability on a class built around delayed burst means the ability has to be consistent to be viable. If it were made to be dodgeable or reflectable, it would have to truly be instant to be viable, but at that point you start to erode the budding class identity of the warden. So it's a tricky situation.

If only there was a way to nerf the ability when it's being used to pug Zerg people down, but still maintain its effectiveness and reliability when the warden itself is outnumbered or in an even fight.

leepalmer95

Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.

What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?

ChunkyCat

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.

What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?

Are you seriously complaining about not being able to 1vX?

revonine

Yoohoo4411 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.

What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?

Are you seriously complaining about not being able to 1vX?

Yeah why not? All gameplay styles are supposedly supported by ZOS in cyro (lol),
If your outnumbered are you just suppose to keel over and die or try to win?

leepalmer95

Yoohoo4411 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Nothing worse theen trying to get away and line of sight 6 people only to get hit for 5k uncounterable attacks.

What do you do? Do you block in order to not get melted? But then the groups kills you? Do you roll and struggle to outheal all the other dmg + 5k a second cliff racer?

Are you seriously complaining about not being able to 1vX?

Complaining about a skill with no counter.

apostate9

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Medium armor is the weakest armor class currently and having this move be undodgeable is a gross disregard towards balance.

No.

NBrookus

If warden didn't already have that aoe major defile, I'd say give the ability minor defile in exchange for treating it like any other projectile. It's too spammable for empower. Maybe Minor Breach for a few seconds? Something that rewards players for using it tactically by increasing their damage potential -- instead of rewarding players for spamming a single skill.

Lord-Otto

Can't you just cloak it?