Dive needs to be dodgeable

C0ndor

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Durham wrote: »

Lol EOF trains are the worst part of this game pvp... but the sheep need it so there is no complaining...

Dive isn't op on it's own.

Having a organised zerg group drop 5x at the same time on one player is.

Theres always some zergling wipe tactic, used to be bats/ steel tornado, before that it was bats/impulse...

Doesn't matter what you nerf there will always be one.

Corrected for the thread

Joy_Division

Yoohoo4411 wrote: »

Joy_Division wrote: »

Yoohoo4411 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

Smmokkee wrote: »

IZZESparkling wrote: »

It does not even need adjusting. You are outnumbered, you will die eventually. Just accept that fact. I sometimes 1vX just for fun and just to test the limits of myself for fun. Normally, it does not end well, because of lags I am having not allowing me to use defensive skills half the time. And it is only natural that outnumbering side will kill me because my stat pools are lower in every regard compared to the group's total aggregated pool. What makes you think you should be able to kill not-complete potatoes outnumbering you? Even potatoes will get you eventually. Just because you cannot 1vx does not mean skill is broken or has no counterplay. Because those wardens are also so easily killable if not built for tankiness. And tanky wardens don't have enough damage to be a concern.

I mean, I could say this to you also. The phrase people like to use to people who got 1vxed by them... L2P. Or just relax and have fun. Dying in pvp is not really a shameful thing.

No... Just no.

I am quite appalled by your insight.

I'm quite applauded bu your logic. Outnumbered doesn't = death.

Also doesn't mean you're going to, or should win.

Tell me who "should" win? Is not one of the reasons we play games if for the sake of competition, yes? Where is the competition if you already preordained who should win?

Who should win in an MMO? Seriously?

Hmmm... massive multiplayer game.... naw..... The guy playing by himself should win. Every time. If he doesn't, well, then game is clearly unfair.

Makes perfect sense.

I asked a legit question and you just respond with hyperbole and nonsense. Outnumbered doesn't mean the guy playing by himself in a massive multiplayer game.

Trashkan

This is dumb it's basically wardens version of flare. So what's the problem? Should we need flare too?

Chilly-McFreeze

Trashkan wrote: »

This is dumb it's basically wardens version of flare. So what's the problem? Should we need flare too?

What? Flare has a cast time, 15% higher cost and is dodgeable.

That means you can interrupt, dodge and block it while it can't be spammed with such a frequency as dive. So no, it's nothing like flare.

Waffennacht

So are Wardens OP or Underpowered? cuz I hear both on these forums

I do have my own opinion, but how can you isolate a class specific ability in an analysis without analysing the class as a whole?

Chilly-McFreeze

Waffennacht wrote: »

So are Wardens OP or Underpowered? cuz I hear both on these forums

I do have my own opinion, but how can you isolate a class specific ability in an analysis without analysing the class as a whole?

I repeat myself but why does lackluster classdesign justifies this unbalanced skill? Wouldn't that *hyberbole incoming* inevitably lead to the thought that a class that lacks power in 14 skills + 3 ultimates be justified to have an I-Win-Button?

Sure, Warden has it downsides, especially in the DPS departement, but that shouldn't grant them to be a pvp one trick pony. Power up other aspects/ skills and change dive.

Waffennacht

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So are Wardens OP or Underpowered? cuz I hear both on these forums

I do have my own opinion, but how can you isolate a class specific ability in an analysis without analysing the class as a whole?

I repeat myself but why does lackluster classdesign justifies this unbalanced skill? Wouldn't that *hyberbole incoming* inevitably lead to the thought that a class that lacks power in 14 skills + 3 ultimates be justified to have an I-Win-Button?

Sure, Warden has it downsides, especially in the DPS departement, but that shouldn't grant them to be a pvp one trick pony. Power up other aspects/ skills and change dive.

At which point you're saying change the entire class - which I wouldn't be against as long as it was an improvement

leepalmer95

Waffennacht wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So are Wardens OP or Underpowered? cuz I hear both on these forums

I do have my own opinion, but how can you isolate a class specific ability in an analysis without analysing the class as a whole?

I repeat myself but why does lackluster classdesign justifies this unbalanced skill? Wouldn't that *hyberbole incoming* inevitably lead to the thought that a class that lacks power in 14 skills + 3 ultimates be justified to have an I-Win-Button?

Sure, Warden has it downsides, especially in the DPS departement, but that shouldn't grant them to be a pvp one trick pony. Power up other aspects/ skills and change dive.

At which point you're saying change the entire class - which I wouldn't be against as long as it was an improvement

Changing 1 skill isn't the entire class though, warden still has some problems.

Stam warden seems to have been forgot about in passives and some morphs. It doesn't get any passive dmg like the 6% magicka/ ice damage magicka warden gets. Cliff racer stam morph has literally no additional effect. Green betty morph has no additional effect for stamina...

Making cliff racer actually have a counter won't break the class, speed up the animation.

Waffennacht

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

So are Wardens OP or Underpowered? cuz I hear both on these forums

I do have my own opinion, but how can you isolate a class specific ability in an analysis without analysing the class as a whole?

I repeat myself but why does lackluster classdesign justifies this unbalanced skill? Wouldn't that *hyberbole incoming* inevitably lead to the thought that a class that lacks power in 14 skills + 3 ultimates be justified to have an I-Win-Button?

Sure, Warden has it downsides, especially in the DPS departement, but that shouldn't grant them to be a pvp one trick pony. Power up other aspects/ skills and change dive.

At which point you're saying change the entire class - which I wouldn't be against as long as it was an improvement

Changing 1 skill isn't the entire class though, warden still has some problems.

Stam warden seems to have been forgot about in passives and some morphs. It doesn't get any passive dmg like the 6% magicka/ ice damage magicka warden gets. Cliff racer stam morph has literally no additional effect. Green betty morph has no additional effect for stamina...

Making cliff racer actually have a counter won't break the class, speed up the animation.

@leepalmer95 I was remarking on the, "power up other aspects/skills and change dive" quote. If you change all the skills (by buffs and then changing dive) is a massive class change over all - which I'm not against if it gets better. I'm all for a stronger warden

NBrookus

From the get go warden has been designed as a support class. They bring heals, buffs and debuffs to a group. FFS, they have a cheap AOE major defile debuff that costs DKs 250 ultimate to get.

Problem is that many players wanted an DPS ice mage, and the devs have decided ice staffs are defensive, not offensive. The damage skills seem tacked on to appease that crowd.

sly007

TheBonesXXX wrote: »

People saying stam Warden is easy are playing with 2h or sword/board both which take little competency to use.

Play it on DW/bow, you will not find the same success.

Some skill

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Torbschka wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Xvorg wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Dunno dude, I honestly didn't had so much problem against warden unless they're coming from behind in bg, playng as warden, as heavy mag dk and medium stamplar (ok I may have pirate skeleton on stamplar :P) just don't stay in their face to take deep fissure and you're fine. Honestly I had more problem on stam blade viper selene or sorc in heavy with tremor and viper..

Problem is not warden. The class is so bad soloing that any warden throwing cliff racer is no problem. The problem is more than 2 wardens spamming it

The class is so weak and ill done that they need to form groups to be somewhat viable PvP. In that case, a projectile with dmg increase based on distance is overkill. Nevertheless the class is played and has a succesful rate just because one skll. Does that mean the class is good? No. Is just a skill overperforming.

I wouldn't have any problem with that skill if none of the changes done last patch have taken effect. The class was more than OK if included in Homestead with Homestead rules, but nerfing block and constitution while incerasing dmg through MoA star has created unbalance that favors the class introduced in Morrowind (which in turn you have to buy to use it) How is that remotely close to the concept of "fair play"? (oxymoron intended)

Ugh this class is incredibly powerful, and very easy to 1vX with. The class needs no help by having an undodgeable attack.

Maybe you find the class to be weak because you're weak at playing it

Its not, stop that trash talking. I play it exusively since morrowind and its way way harder than any other class for 1vX except magicka NB.

U procblades seems really pissed lol

By harder you mean you use shalk, crit rush, dawnbreaker and wipe a few people with reverse slice?

Its more of a group class as its passives require you to heal others.

But still

It takes minimal experience and competency to kill anyone with 2h, any class paired with 2h can do very well, that doesn't make the class over powered it means 2h is easy.

It takes more competency to kill anything in the sword and board line..

then finally duel wield is the hardest out of the melee skill line by miles..

2h carries 90% of the stam oriented players in this game, Cliff Racer isn't OP, its a magnifying glass to the glaring obvious problem that most of the people in this game have the illusion that they play a difficult build when in reality 2h and evasion take out a huge chunk of difficulty.

Maybe other mechanics need to be tuned before we talk about nerfing more skills.

I just had to LOL. Two hander does not carry stamina players. It contains one of the fundamental buff and heal for stamina. I would like to see a magicka sorceror play without resto staff. I have never had a problem going against 2h with a magicka build. In fact, dual wield posses more of a problem because of the bleed.

Unfadingsilence

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Can't you just cloak it?

Yep you sure can

leepalmer95

Unfadingsilence wrote: »

Lord-Otto wrote: »

Can't you just cloak it?

Yep you sure can

that seems like a useful skill at what level do i unlock that on my stam dk/ sorc/ templar/ warden?

Glamdring

IZZESparkling wrote: »

It does not even need adjusting. You are outnumbered, you will die eventually. Just accept that fact. I sometimes 1vX just for fun and just to test the limits of myself for fun. Normally, it does not end well, because of lags I am having not allowing me to use defensive skills half the time. And it is only natural that outnumbering side will kill me because my stat pools are lower in every regard compared to the group's total aggregated pool. What makes you think you should be able to kill not-complete potatoes outnumbering you? Even potatoes will get you eventually. Just because you cannot 1vx does not mean skill is broken or has no counterplay. Because those wardens are also so easily killable if not built for tankiness. And tanky wardens don't have enough damage to be a concern.

I mean, I could say this to you also. The phrase people like to use to people who got 1vxed by them... L2P. Or just relax and have fun. Dying in pvp is not really a shameful thing.

Obviously u have no idea whatsoever what 1vx are all about. Afraid of dying? LOL i can assure we smallscalers die alot. I see many tryharders in zergs that run half the map when 50% of their group are dead. Thats players who are afraid of dying. Hiding in group thats chickensplay. And no skill should be able to be spammable and undodgable with that amount of damage and u cant even see it comming when the wardens stand at the back of the group chasing u down. 1v1 though wardens are more often than not a walk in the park to take down.

And the argument, their are procs then warden needs this skill. Are u serious? procs? u mean like viper? tremorscale? red mountain? selene? Skoria? sets that any class can use including wardens, and trust me i met wardens on the battlefield with all of theese procsets.

Sharee

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

leepalmer95

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

We ignoring all the skills that go through counter?

Biro123

There's nothing worse than having your main defence totally negated by a simple ranged spammable...

Oh, we're not talking about shieldbreaker?

leepalmer95

Biro123 wrote: »

There's nothing worse than having your main defence totally negated by a simple ranged spammable...

Oh, we're not talking about shieldbreaker?

Shieldbreaker should be gone as well but:

2.1k dmg per light attack

5-7k crit dmg from birds...

Ones a niche set people barely use, another is a spammable class skill from the only new class in 3 years.

Wonder which one im going to be hit with more..

Sharee

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

We ignoring all the skills that go through counter?

There are way too few skills that go through it, and way too many that don't.

Timeraider

5-7k criticals.. Someone needs to give me that build because I must be doing something wrong XD would be a critical on a person without resistances or impen

Biro123

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

There's nothing worse than having your main defence totally negated by a simple ranged spammable...

Oh, we're not talking about shieldbreaker?

Shieldbreaker should be gone as well but:

2.1k dmg per light attack

5-7k crit dmg from birds...

Ones a niche set people barely use, another is a spammable class skill from the only new class in 3 years.

Wonder which one im going to be hit with more..

Yeah, at the minute I'm seeing about the same amount of shieldbreaker use as Wardens.. but wardens will only increase.

At least that dmg comes from using skills though instead of a mindless proc that does double the damage of viper over time.

To be honest, I wonder if dive just needs some kind of proc treatment - like frags - so when it 'procs' it becomes undodgeable - otherwise, if simply spammed, it is (mostly)dodgeable..

Imho, its fine for there to be ranged abilities that can totally counter your main defence - forcing you to use a secondary defence that you're not really built for - but it shouldn't be spammable..

Chilly-McFreeze

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

Really? What of a *** up argument is that? Maybe it dawned on you that stamina builds don't use magickal shields because, you know, they scale with max magicka? Or the ones that scale with max health are too weak? Give me a ward that scales with max stamina and you can ask that...strange...question again.

Or to answer it now: because your magickal toon CAN use dodge succesfully one or two times. But your stamina toon CAN NOT use a magickal ward successfully. Because you have a defensive ability that locks out everyone but magickal toons. When you want it that way, then magickal defense is at least on par with giving you the opportunity to use ward, block and dodge. While stam toons are forced to only use block and dodge. Also you dodge, block and run with the otherwise useless resource pool while a stam char does all that + attacks + healing with his main resource.

But okay, give me a low cost, good damage spammable SKILL (not a 5 piece set) that goes through shields and we're on!

Strider_Roshin

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.

Joy_Division

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.

Says the person whose posting history is full of nerf sorc-buff stamina threads. I can only imagine the number of tears you would have if my shield stacking sorcerer was given access to cheap (pre-nerfed) shuffle and cheap dodge roll.

Sharee

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Or to answer it now: because your magickal toon CAN use dodge succesfully one or two times. But your stamina toon CAN NOT use a magickal ward successfully.

That's the whole point. If dodge wasn't so overpowered to begin with my magicka toon would not be wasting any precious stamina on it, just the way your stamina toon does not waste any magicka on shields.

Chilly-McFreeze

Sharee wrote: »

Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »

Or to answer it now: because your magickal toon CAN use dodge succesfully one or two times. But your stamina toon CAN NOT use a magickal ward successfully.

That's the whole point. If dodge wasn't so overpowered to begin with my magicka toon would not be wasting any precious stamina on it, just the way your stamina toon does not waste any magicka on shields.

Again, this is flawed. Sometimes you just have to dodge role, e.g. when rooted + stam toons don't "waste" magicka for shields because their shields would be too tiny due to not having a large magicka pool.

If somehow magickal shields would be as big on stam toons as they are on mag toons, stam builds would use their magicka for them.

I really don't know if you don't get it or if you are trolling. Please let it be trolling.

Waffennacht

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.

Come on man dodge roll + Stam based ward + strongest HoTs? Yeah that's op - and why it stopped. Imagine if magicka could use magic for dodge roll (lich?)

Biro123 wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Biro123 wrote: »

There's nothing worse than having your main defence totally negated by a simple ranged spammable...

Oh, we're not talking about shieldbreaker?

Shieldbreaker should be gone as well but:

2.1k dmg per light attack

5-7k crit dmg from birds...

Ones a niche set people barely use, another is a spammable class skill from the only new class in 3 years.

Wonder which one im going to be hit with more..

Yeah, at the minute I'm seeing about the same amount of shieldbreaker use as Wardens.. but wardens will only increase.

At least that dmg comes from using skills though instead of a mindless proc that does double the damage of viper over time.

To be honest, I wonder if dive just needs some kind of proc treatment - like frags - so when it 'procs' it becomes undodgeable - otherwise, if simply spammed, it is (mostly)dodgeable..

Imho, its fine for there to be ranged abilities that can totally counter your main defence - forcing you to use a secondary defence that you're not really built for - but it shouldn't be spammable..

Ohh how about when it procs undodgeable and unblockable?

Tryxus

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.

It was changed because Undaunted skills were meant for group play by providing easy synergies. Same reason why Trapping Webs was changed from a Magicka Spammable (loved by DW Sorcs), to a Stamina ground DoT

Anyways,

Dive is really strong, and I can understand the reasoning of making it undodgeable since it has a delay

However, I'm not a fan of the skill and I would prefer it if they reworked it (in a way that is still beneficial).

Waffennacht

Tryxus wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.

It was changed because Undaunted skills were meant for group play by providing easy synergies. Same reason why Trapping Webs was changed from a Magicka Spammable (loved by DW Sorcs), to a Stamina ground DoT

Anyways,

Dive is really strong, and I can understand the reasoning of making it undodgeable since it has a delay

However, I'm not a fan of the skill and I would prefer it if they reworked it (in a way that is still beneficial).

As I play my Warden, after I burst, the delay in abilities means if dive is dodgeable, the second lapse + another for dodge, is all the time an opponent needs to get to full health. Without an instant damage dealer or execute, a magwarden won't finish off any other class.

If one were to make dive dodge able, then warden definitely needs a dependable method of dealing direct substantive damage

leepalmer95

Waffennacht wrote: »

Tryxus wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...

People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.

Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.

Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.

It was changed because Undaunted skills were meant for group play by providing easy synergies. Same reason why Trapping Webs was changed from a Magicka Spammable (loved by DW Sorcs), to a Stamina ground DoT

Anyways,

Dive is really strong, and I can understand the reasoning of making it undodgeable since it has a delay

However, I'm not a fan of the skill and I would prefer it if they reworked it (in a way that is still beneficial).

As I play my Warden, after I burst, the delay in abilities means if dive is dodgeable, the second lapse + another for dodge, is all the time an opponent needs to get to full health. Without an instant damage dealer or execute, a magwarden won't finish off any other class.

If one were to make dive dodge able, then warden definitely needs a dependable method of dealing direct substantive damage

Speed the animation up.

Or use crushing shock like i've seen a lot of wardens use. Fissure + dive + crushing shock will all hit at once.