Dive needs to be dodgeable

Strider_Roshin

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

Waffennacht

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

Well I'd be lying if I said I didn't scratch my head at that too...

C0ndor

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

The ground aoe deals higher damage than the bird, you don't want the opposite, trust me

leepalmer95

C0ndor wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh

I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.

They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.

This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.

Have to agree with @Sharee on this. "Undodgeable" trait of Dive was not afterthought. Either obvious animation was result and they PR'ed it the other way or it was premise, that made them think how to make the skill strong. The design of the animation is not something that currently supports the undodgeable part. It is the other way. This skill is undodgeable first and slow/obvious second. If you convince them to change it they may or may not change the animation. But you wont convince them to change the animation, because it is undodgeable.

Just simply looking at warden as damage dealer in PVP (either magicka or bow built) just screams THE NEED for it being undodgeable. It is core part and without it the class wont work unless bigger changes are made.

The class will work just fine, their cc still goes through roll and stuns them.

Sorry, maybe I missed the cc that go through dodge and block.. if you mean scorch, doesn't go through dodge and is pretty easy to avoid, and the stamina morph don't stun at all.

Pretty sure it goes through dodge, i've been hit plenty of times through dodge.

It goes through walls and ignores 'levels' of keep and such.

Yea, if you stay in the aoe, and it's really easy to see it coming. If you roll dodge outside or simply don't stand in front of it you're safe. Against a good player a warden will not stun nothing without a root or another stun. This force you to use poison or loose burst slotting clench instead of cs/inner/whatever you use

It takes a little getting used too to aim it but i aim mine quite fine.

Its basically a delayed dizzying swing that can't be dodged and dive is a surprise attack with an extra 21% dmg that can't be dodged.

Speed up its animation and add some counterplay to it.

C0ndor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

The ground aoe deals higher damage than the bird, you don't want the opposite, trust me

Believe me i do xD.

X dmg every 3s?

Bird spam once a second.

Waffennacht

C0ndor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

The ground aoe deals higher damage than the bird, you don't want the opposite, trust me

I'd love the AoE stun to be attached to the undodgeable part... And make it unblockable... And instant... Because I'm just rambling

C0ndor

leepalmer95 wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

SodanTok wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Sharee wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh

I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.

They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.

This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.

Have to agree with @Sharee on this. "Undodgeable" trait of Dive was not afterthought. Either obvious animation was result and they PR'ed it the other way or it was premise, that made them think how to make the skill strong. The design of the animation is not something that currently supports the undodgeable part. It is the other way. This skill is undodgeable first and slow/obvious second. If you convince them to change it they may or may not change the animation. But you wont convince them to change the animation, because it is undodgeable.

Just simply looking at warden as damage dealer in PVP (either magicka or bow built) just screams THE NEED for it being undodgeable. It is core part and without it the class wont work unless bigger changes are made.

The class will work just fine, their cc still goes through roll and stuns them.

Sorry, maybe I missed the cc that go through dodge and block.. if you mean scorch, doesn't go through dodge and is pretty easy to avoid, and the stamina morph don't stun at all.

Pretty sure it goes through dodge, i've been hit plenty of times through dodge.

It goes through walls and ignores 'levels' of keep and such.

Yea, if you stay in the aoe, and it's really easy to see it coming. If you roll dodge outside or simply don't stand in front of it you're safe. Against a good player a warden will not stun nothing without a root or another stun. This force you to use poison or loose burst slotting clench instead of cs/inner/whatever you use

It takes a little getting used too to aim it but i aim mine quite fine.

Its basically a delayed dizzying swing that can't be dodged and dive is a surprise attack with an extra 21% dmg that can't be dodged.

Speed up its animation and add some counterplay to it.

C0ndor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

The ground aoe deals higher damage than the bird, you don't want the opposite, trust me

Believe me i do xD.

X dmg every 3s?

Bird spam once a second.

You will not bird spam, or you will kill just afk people or dodge rolling people in an outnumbered/small scale situation (not to mention those who want to post screen capture of death recap and post it here)

s7732425ub17_ESO

Cliff racer is one of the very few counters to the perma dodge rolling cancer that is pervading PVP right now. It needs to stay.

Also, making it dodgeable would be a huge nerf to an already very weak class.

leepalmer95

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Cliff racer is one of the very few counters to the perma dodge rolling cancer that is pervading PVP right now. It needs to stay.

Also, making it dodgeable would be a huge nerf to an already very weak class.

Weak how?

There is plenty of counters to perma dodge roll. One being the fact it has a cost increase. Literally most aoes go through it. Most ultimates. Purifying light/ curse/ beam/ fury proc etc..

Strider_Roshin

s7732425ub17_ESO wrote: »

Cliff racer is one of the very few counters to the perma dodge rolling cancer that is pervading PVP right now. It needs to stay.

Also, making it dodgeable would be a huge nerf to an already very weak class.

By perma dodge rolling do you mean 6 to 7 times in a row with a full stamina bar? Wanna compare that to the amount of times I can spam hardened ward on my magsorc?

Strider_Roshin

C0ndor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

The ground aoe deals higher damage than the bird, you don't want the opposite, trust me

Not being able to dodge roll a ground AoE at least makes sense. The rationale behind the undodgeable bird is just stupid.

C0ndor

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

The ground aoe deals higher damage than the bird, you don't want the opposite, trust me

Not being able to dodge roll a ground AoE at least makes sense. The rationale behind the undodgeable bird is just stupid.

Yea it is, but you will kill the skill and the only way to create burst. The damage coming is slow and predictable, if you know how to avoid it after 2/3 of that the warden will re apply buffs. There you will hurt more. Use cc during the burst combo to avoid part of the damage, don't stand still, move and be unpredictable, roll dodge is still useful to avoid burst, move through the enemy don't let him create distance. Isolate him if he is in group. Use root to avoid the grownd stun, flank it like he's a templar. That's how you melt a warden. You want to be dodgable? Fine, double the duration of trellis and bird of prey, increase the swarm damage and let the shimmering shield absorb also the cc and the status effect, not just the damage.

Waffennacht

C0ndor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

C0ndor wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Shalk is one of the very few dodge-able AoEs.

So the ground AoE is dodgeable, but the slow moving bird is undodgeable. Makes sense -_-

The ground aoe deals higher damage than the bird, you don't want the opposite, trust me

Not being able to dodge roll a ground AoE at least makes sense. The rationale behind the undodgeable bird is just stupid.

Yea it is, but you will kill the skill and the only way to create burst. The damage coming is slow and predictable, if you know how to avoid it after 2/3 of that the warden will re apply buffs. There you will hurt more. Use cc during the burst combo to avoid part of the damage, don't stand still, move and be unpredictable, roll dodge is still useful to avoid burst, move through the enemy don't let him create distance. Isolate him if he is in group. Use root to avoid the grownd stun, flank it like he's a templar. That's how you melt a warden. You want to be dodgable? Fine, double the duration of trellis and bird of prey, increase the swarm damage and let the shimmering shield absorb also the cc and the status effect, not just the damage.

[Snip] Son, way to freaking tell everyone - (I do mean that in a positive way; you're dead on correct)

[Edited to remove profanity]

Alucardo

Hi there, Aluc here. I just wanted to chime in.

The one thing cliff racer has going for it is the fact that it can't be dodged. That's it. By the time one bird lands I could have casted two crushing shocks. If you allow this ability to be dodged, why wouldn't you just use crushing shock instead?

- It has a ranged interrupt
- If you're Altmer, you get the ice damage bonus, the fire damage bonus, and another ice bonus on top just for being warden
- It's fast
- It can't be reflected either

Now let's look at the benefits of cliff racer if it can be dodged

- ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

While Warden has a pretty neat toolbox, it's really limited in the damage department. I honestly can't see anybody still using cliff racer if you nerf it, so they're left with deep fissure and a DoT that can't even proc skoria. Wow, amazing.
On the flipside, I can see why all you somersaulting clowns are salty about this skill.

To make peace on both sides, if you give people the ability to dodge this skill a few things need to happen to it.

- Damage increase
- It needs to shoot horizontally, and not glide out of the sky
- Project itself as fast as crushing shock/force pulse
- Have an extra bonus attached to it

I would suggest removing the 15% damage bonus at long range and replacing it with something else, like major breach (which will help increase their dps a little).
Honestly, if you're playing mag warden properly you're not far away from your target anyway, because you want deep fissure to hit. The long range bonus just promotes those people giving Wardens a bad name by tossing birds at people from behind zerg lines.

leepalmer95

Alucardo wrote: »

Hi there, Aluc here. I just wanted to chime in.

The one thing cliff racer has going for it is the fact that it can't be dodged. That's it. By the time one bird lands I could have casted two crushing shocks. If you allow this ability to be dodged, why wouldn't you just use crushing shock instead?

- It has a ranged interrupt
- If you're Altmer, you get the ice damage bonus, the fire damage bonus, and another ice bonus on top just for being warden
- It's fast
- It can't be reflected either

Now let's look at the benefits of cliff racer if it can be dodged

- ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

While Warden has a pretty neat toolbox, it's really limited in the damage department. I honestly can't see anybody still using cliff racer if you nerf it, so they're left with deep fissure and a DoT that can't even proc skoria. Wow, amazing.
On the flipside, I can see why all you somersaulting clowns are salty about this skill.

To make peace on both sides, if you give people the ability to dodge this skill a few things need to happen to it.

- Damage increase
- It needs to shoot horizontally, and not glide out of the sky
- Project itself as fast as crushing shock/force pulse
- Have an extra bonus attached to it

I would suggest removing the 15% damage bonus at long range and replacing it with something else, like major breach (which will help increase their dps a little).
Honestly, if you're playing mag warden properly you're not far away from your target anyway, because you want deep fissure to hit. The long range bonus just promotes those people giving Wardens a bad name by tossing birds at people from behind zerg lines.

Cliff racer hits harder. +2% all dmg for slotting it.

Alucardo

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Hi there, Aluc here. I just wanted to chime in.

The one thing cliff racer has going for it is the fact that it can't be dodged. That's it. By the time one bird lands I could have casted two crushing shocks. If you allow this ability to be dodged, why wouldn't you just use crushing shock instead?

- It has a ranged interrupt
- If you're Altmer, you get the ice damage bonus, the fire damage bonus, and another ice bonus on top just for being warden
- It's fast
- It can't be reflected either

Now let's look at the benefits of cliff racer if it can be dodged

- ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

While Warden has a pretty neat toolbox, it's really limited in the damage department. I honestly can't see anybody still using cliff racer if you nerf it, so they're left with deep fissure and a DoT that can't even proc skoria. Wow, amazing.
On the flipside, I can see why all you somersaulting clowns are salty about this skill.

To make peace on both sides, if you give people the ability to dodge this skill a few things need to happen to it.

- Damage increase
- It needs to shoot horizontally, and not glide out of the sky
- Project itself as fast as crushing shock/force pulse
- Have an extra bonus attached to it

I would suggest removing the 15% damage bonus at long range and replacing it with something else, like major breach (which will help increase their dps a little).
Honestly, if you're playing mag warden properly you're not far away from your target anyway, because you want deep fissure to hit. The long range bonus just promotes those people giving Wardens a bad name by tossing birds at people from behind zerg lines.

Cliff racer hits harder. +2% all dmg for slotting it.

Sure, but I'm saying drop the +15% from long range. So giving it a small 5% buff or something and letting people dodge it isn't a bad trade off.

Strider_Roshin

Alucardo wrote: »

Hi there, Aluc here. I just wanted to chime in.

The one thing cliff racer has going for it is the fact that it can't be dodged. That's it. By the time one bird lands I could have casted two crushing shocks. If you allow this ability to be dodged, why wouldn't you just use crushing shock instead?

- It has a ranged interrupt
- If you're Altmer, you get the ice damage bonus, the fire damage bonus, and another ice bonus on top just for being warden
- It's fast
- It can't be reflected either

Now let's look at the benefits of cliff racer if it can be dodged

- ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

While Warden has a pretty neat toolbox, it's really limited in the damage department. I honestly can't see anybody still using cliff racer if you nerf it, so they're left with deep fissure and a DoT that can't even proc skoria. Wow, amazing.
On the flipside, I can see why all you somersaulting clowns are salty about this skill.

To make peace on both sides, if you give people the ability to dodge this skill a few things need to happen to it.

- Damage increase
- It needs to shoot horizontally, and not glide out of the sky
- Project itself as fast as crushing shock/force pulse
- Have an extra bonus attached to it

I would suggest removing the 15% damage bonus at long range and replacing it with something else, like major breach (which will help increase their dps a little).
Honestly, if you're playing mag warden properly you're not far away from your target anyway, because you want deep fissure to hit. The long range bonus just promotes those people giving Wardens a bad name by tossing birds at people from behind zerg lines.

It's cheaper than Surprise attack, hits harder than Surprise Attack, and you think it has nothing going for it?

There's been plenty of suggestions here that are viable; the easiest being to make it dodgeable while speeding up the animation. I like your major breach idea while removing the bonus damage, but that would be a huge PvE nerf, and on top of that elemental drain is just too good not to use.

I do believe that giving the stam version extra damage while your close to your opponent would be a solid change though because like always stam looks like an after thought for this class.

But this needs to be dodge able otherwise where's my huge arsenal of abilities that ignore damage shields. The anti-stam bias in this game is disgusting.

Alucardo

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

It's cheaper than Surprise attack, hits harder than Surprise Attack, and you think it has nothing going for it?

There's been plenty of suggestions here that are viable; the easiest being to make it dodgeable while speeding up the animation. I like your major breach idea while removing the bonus damage, but that would be a huge PvE nerf, and on top of that elemental drain is just too good not to use.

I do believe that giving the stam version extra damage while your close to your opponent would be a solid change though because like always stam looks like an after thought for this class.

But this needs to be dodge able otherwise where's my huge arsenal of abilities that ignore damage shields. The anti-stam bias in this game is disgusting.

Surprise attack also debuffs with major fracture, so all the other attacks hit harder, and it procs major resolve/ward without needing to slot a skill for that buff. You can also stun with it. The only stun Wardens have is with deep fissure, if you can land it successfully.
All-in-all, I'd take surprise attack on my Warden and call it a day. I play close range just because of deep fissure anyway. I'm not against this skill being dodgeable, but it really does need more utility to make it a little more balanced, especially considering it's easier to stack spell resistances compared to physical.

leepalmer95

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Hi there, Aluc here. I just wanted to chime in.

The one thing cliff racer has going for it is the fact that it can't be dodged. That's it. By the time one bird lands I could have casted two crushing shocks. If you allow this ability to be dodged, why wouldn't you just use crushing shock instead?

- It has a ranged interrupt
- If you're Altmer, you get the ice damage bonus, the fire damage bonus, and another ice bonus on top just for being warden
- It's fast
- It can't be reflected either

Now let's look at the benefits of cliff racer if it can be dodged

- ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

While Warden has a pretty neat toolbox, it's really limited in the damage department. I honestly can't see anybody still using cliff racer if you nerf it, so they're left with deep fissure and a DoT that can't even proc skoria. Wow, amazing.
On the flipside, I can see why all you somersaulting clowns are salty about this skill.

To make peace on both sides, if you give people the ability to dodge this skill a few things need to happen to it.

- Damage increase
- It needs to shoot horizontally, and not glide out of the sky
- Project itself as fast as crushing shock/force pulse
- Have an extra bonus attached to it

I would suggest removing the 15% damage bonus at long range and replacing it with something else, like major breach (which will help increase their dps a little).
Honestly, if you're playing mag warden properly you're not far away from your target anyway, because you want deep fissure to hit. The long range bonus just promotes those people giving Wardens a bad name by tossing birds at people from behind zerg lines.

Cliff racer hits harder. +2% all dmg for slotting it.

Sure, but I'm saying drop the +15% from long range. So giving it a small 5% buff or something and letting people dodge it isn't a bad trade off.

Sure thats a good idea, more constant damage for less 'chance of burst'. Though that should apply to both morphs.

Currently the magicka dives deals 21% more dmg than the stamina one. The stamina one has no additional effect.

Alucardo

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Hi there, Aluc here. I just wanted to chime in.

The one thing cliff racer has going for it is the fact that it can't be dodged. That's it. By the time one bird lands I could have casted two crushing shocks. If you allow this ability to be dodged, why wouldn't you just use crushing shock instead?

- It has a ranged interrupt
- If you're Altmer, you get the ice damage bonus, the fire damage bonus, and another ice bonus on top just for being warden
- It's fast
- It can't be reflected either

Now let's look at the benefits of cliff racer if it can be dodged

- ¿¿¿¿¿¿¿

While Warden has a pretty neat toolbox, it's really limited in the damage department. I honestly can't see anybody still using cliff racer if you nerf it, so they're left with deep fissure and a DoT that can't even proc skoria. Wow, amazing.
On the flipside, I can see why all you somersaulting clowns are salty about this skill.

To make peace on both sides, if you give people the ability to dodge this skill a few things need to happen to it.

- Damage increase
- It needs to shoot horizontally, and not glide out of the sky
- Project itself as fast as crushing shock/force pulse
- Have an extra bonus attached to it

I would suggest removing the 15% damage bonus at long range and replacing it with something else, like major breach (which will help increase their dps a little).
Honestly, if you're playing mag warden properly you're not far away from your target anyway, because you want deep fissure to hit. The long range bonus just promotes those people giving Wardens a bad name by tossing birds at people from behind zerg lines.

Cliff racer hits harder. +2% all dmg for slotting it.

Sure, but I'm saying drop the +15% from long range. So giving it a small 5% buff or something and letting people dodge it isn't a bad trade off.

Sure thats a good idea, more constant damage for less 'chance of burst'. Though that should apply to both morphs.

Currently the magicka dives deals 21% more dmg than the stamina one. The stamina one has no additional effect.

Strider's suggestion of making the stam morph do more damage the closer you are isn't a bad idea. If you're playing within melee range you should be a lot more dangerous in return.

Waffennacht

Just really quick,

Shield counters

Sets: shield breaker, Knightslayer
Glyphs: Oblivion damage
Abilities:
Weapons: I hear tell bleed?
CP: shattering blows?

6 seconds

Dodge counters:

Sets:
Glyphs:
Abilities: Dive, Curse, Leap, AoEs except Shalk, "beams"
Weapons: Lightning/resto heavy attack
CP:

Increase in cost

Seems kinda legit unless I'm forgetting stuff

Alucardo

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just really quick,

Shield counters

Sets: shield breaker, Knightslayer
Glyphs: Oblivion damage
Abilities:
Weapons: I hear tell bleed?
CP: shattering blows?

6 seconds

Dodge counters:

Sets:
Glyphs:
Abilities: Dive, Curse, Leap, AoEs except Shalk, "beams"
Weapons: Lightning/resto heavy attack
CP:

Increase in cost

Seems kinda legit unless I'm forgetting stuff

Even though Dawnbreaker is TECHNICALLY an AOE ability, they can dodge that now too

Strider_Roshin

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just really quick,

Shield counters

Sets: shield breaker, Knightslayer
Glyphs: Oblivion damage
Abilities:
Weapons: I hear tell bleed?
CP: shattering blows?

6 seconds

Dodge counters:

Sets:
Glyphs:
Abilities: Dive, Curse, Leap, AoEs except Shalk, "beams"
Weapons: Lightning/resto heavy attack
CP:

Increase in cost

Seems kinda legit unless I'm forgetting stuff

Oblivion damage (with the exception of shield breaker) affects everyone equally, and therefore I wouldn't consider it a counter, more like an equalizer (but to be fair that means you can't shield it). You can shield Dive, but you can't dodge it; making it a dodge roll counter. There are no abilities in the game that can be dodged, but can't be shielded unless I'm mistaken?

Just to reiterate shield breaker requires you to make yourself less efficient at dealing with anyone that doesn't use a shield for the sake of combating those that do. Which is a strong indicator that shields over perform.

I would love it if the tables were turned; if every ability in the game was dodgeable, and ZOS came out with a 5 piece that make it so light/heavy attacks cause 2250 oblivion damage to those who are dodge rolling.

Alucardo

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just really quick,

Shield counters

Sets: shield breaker, Knightslayer
Glyphs: Oblivion damage
Abilities:
Weapons: I hear tell bleed?
CP: shattering blows?

6 seconds

Dodge counters:

Sets:
Glyphs:
Abilities: Dive, Curse, Leap, AoEs except Shalk, "beams"
Weapons: Lightning/resto heavy attack
CP:

Increase in cost

Seems kinda legit unless I'm forgetting stuff

Just to reiterate shield breaker requires you to make yourself less efficient at dealing with anyone that doesn't use a shield for the sake of combating those that do. Which is a strong indicator that shields over perform.

I just spent another 70k gold to make detect potions and use up a slot on my bar for magelight. Does that mean cloak is overperforming?

Strider_Roshin

Alucardo wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just really quick,

Shield counters

Sets: shield breaker, Knightslayer
Glyphs: Oblivion damage
Abilities:
Weapons: I hear tell bleed?
CP: shattering blows?

6 seconds

Dodge counters:

Sets:
Glyphs:
Abilities: Dive, Curse, Leap, AoEs except Shalk, "beams"
Weapons: Lightning/resto heavy attack
CP:

Increase in cost

Seems kinda legit unless I'm forgetting stuff

Just to reiterate shield breaker requires you to make yourself less efficient at dealing with anyone that doesn't use a shield for the sake of combating those that do. Which is a strong indicator that shields over perform.

I just spent another 70k gold to make detect potions and use up a slot on my bar for magelight. Does that mean cloak is overperforming?

My detect pots give me immovability, and restore magicka. Not much of a sacrifice to use over any other potion.

If anything that shows an imbalance when it comes to counters. You need to make your build weaker against non damage shield users in order to be more effective against damage shields. Countering cloak however? Well the options are numerous, and if for some reason you don't have an ability that passively reveals enemies from stealth then you can use a potion that does some at the same time making you immune to CCs, and improving your magicka resource management.

Can I have a potion that disables shields? I'd use it in a heartbeat!

Alucardo

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just really quick,

Shield counters

Sets: shield breaker, Knightslayer
Glyphs: Oblivion damage
Abilities:
Weapons: I hear tell bleed?
CP: shattering blows?

6 seconds

Dodge counters:

Sets:
Glyphs:
Abilities: Dive, Curse, Leap, AoEs except Shalk, "beams"
Weapons: Lightning/resto heavy attack
CP:

Increase in cost

Seems kinda legit unless I'm forgetting stuff

Just to reiterate shield breaker requires you to make yourself less efficient at dealing with anyone that doesn't use a shield for the sake of combating those that do. Which is a strong indicator that shields over perform.

I just spent another 70k gold to make detect potions and use up a slot on my bar for magelight. Does that mean cloak is overperforming?

My detect pots give me immovability, and restore magicka. Not much of a sacrifice to use over any other potion.

If anything that shows an imbalance when it comes to counters. You need to make your build weaker against non damage shield users in order to be more effective against damage shields. Countering cloak however? Well the options are numerous, and if for some reason you don't have an ability that passively reveals enemies from stealth then you can use a potion that does some at the same time making you immune to CCs, and improving your magicka resource management.

Can I have a potion that disables shields? I'd use it in a heartbeat!

I don't really want to turn this into a cloak vs shields vs dodge debate. I was just stating that there are also numerous counters for cloak because it is extremely strong in a PVP environment.

Strider_Roshin

Alucardo wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Alucardo wrote: »

Strider_Roshin wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Just really quick,

Shield counters

Sets: shield breaker, Knightslayer
Glyphs: Oblivion damage
Abilities:
Weapons: I hear tell bleed?
CP: shattering blows?

6 seconds

Dodge counters:

Sets:
Glyphs:
Abilities: Dive, Curse, Leap, AoEs except Shalk, "beams"
Weapons: Lightning/resto heavy attack
CP:

Increase in cost

Seems kinda legit unless I'm forgetting stuff

Just to reiterate shield breaker requires you to make yourself less efficient at dealing with anyone that doesn't use a shield for the sake of combating those that do. Which is a strong indicator that shields over perform.

I just spent another 70k gold to make detect potions and use up a slot on my bar for magelight. Does that mean cloak is overperforming?

My detect pots give me immovability, and restore magicka. Not much of a sacrifice to use over any other potion.

If anything that shows an imbalance when it comes to counters. You need to make your build weaker against non damage shield users in order to be more effective against damage shields. Countering cloak however? Well the options are numerous, and if for some reason you don't have an ability that passively reveals enemies from stealth then you can use a potion that does some at the same time making you immune to CCs, and improving your magicka resource management.

Can I have a potion that disables shields? I'd use it in a heartbeat!

I don't really want to turn this into a cloak vs shields vs dodge debate. I was just stating that there are also numerous counters for cloak because it is extremely strong in a PVP environment.

Cloak is incredibly strong if you have no abilities or potions to counter it; I agree.

The counters are so numerous, and the reliability of it is so bad however that it's not even a viable defense. It's probably worse off than dodge rolling even. But don't worry I'm sure we'll get the same copy at paste message of:

"Fixed an issue where the invisibility from Shadow Cloak and its morphs was being broken by numerous abilities including x, y, and z..."

Waffennacht

Oh I have an idea! Not thought out mind you:

What about make dive dodgeable (maybe make Shalk unblockable?) And have it grant empower?

Baconlad

I accually dont think dive is bad. The damage is just right, mag warden dont really have many class options for damage skills, atleast compared to magplar. The issue i see is that its not dodgeable. The damage is on par when you consider mag warden doesnt have an execute. But after playing against a mag warden, dive doesnt travel as slow as implied.

Seriously though if they toned down the size of assault i would be happy. Extremely hard to get out of the way of that skill as a magplar.

Lastly, i got wrecked time and time again by a mag warden. I AM on a glass canon build in light armor, and he was on a glass cannon build that defended much like a sorc. Maybe if i had used shields, heavy armor, or he was not a glass canon i would have been better? Most likely. So take all my suggestions with a grain of salt XD

leepalmer95

Waffennacht wrote: »

Oh I have an idea! Not thought out mind you:

What about make dive dodgeable (maybe make Shalk unblockable?) And have it grant empower?

Shalk doesn't need an empower it hits hard enough and cc and its aoe.

Make shalk undodgable its an aoe skill. It makes sense.

Also shattering blows isn't a 'counter' to shields its the other side of bastion. It's balanced.

Sets: Skoria? Grothdarr? Other less used proc sets like the one that procs lightning on melee, winterborn etc...

Oblivion effects everything.
Dots go through roll as well, so bleed is countered. Infact the only dot that goes through shields is bleed, every dot including bleed goes through roll.

SodanTok

What is with the constant surprise attack this and that. Surprise attack is spammable of ONE class. One class that has like 10 other damage abilities. It can proc almost all proc effects in the game (from viper to redguard stam gain). It increases all your damage to the target by some amount by debuffing their armor. If you are invisible it stuns them and IN CP increases your damage to them by 10% for 4 sec (off balance effect of exploiter star). Also on hit increases your armor and simply having it increases your max HP. While enjoying +10% crit damage bonus of the class + all the other passives that in small ways affect it (like better crit chance or more stealth damage). All this while having worse damage than cutting dive by 3% and having higher stam cost by 11%.
While dive is undodgeable and ranged. Increases all your damage by 2% and heals your for 600hp in PVP, grants you 4 ultimate every 8sec and slotting it gives you 12% more regen. Screaming cliff racer is magicka spammable (so not even comparable to something like surprise attack) with 2% to all damage, 6% to itself in melee, 21% in range. Healing for 600hp in pvp.

Ok. Everybody can prefer more one than the other. But for fs stop comparing them like they can be compared.