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Dive needs to be dodgeable
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Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...
People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.
Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.
Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.
Come on man dodge roll + Stam based ward + strongest HoTs? Yeah that's op - and why it stopped. Imagine if magicka could use magic for dodge roll (lich?)
Don't worry, I'm not advocating for stam damage shields lol.
I'm just pointing out the fact that when damage shields were very briefly available for stam they weren't only used, but highly complained about; and it wasn't due to them being weak.
It was more of a retort than a suggestion.2 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...
People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.
Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.
Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.
Come on man dodge roll + Stam based ward + strongest HoTs? Yeah that's op - and why it stopped. Imagine if magicka could use magic for dodge roll (lich?)leepalmer95 wrote: »There's nothing worse than having your main defence totally negated by a simple ranged spammable...
Oh, we're not talking about shieldbreaker?
Shieldbreaker should be gone as well but:
2.1k dmg per light attack
5-7k crit dmg from birds...
Ones a niche set people barely use, another is a spammable class skill from the only new class in 3 years.
Wonder which one im going to be hit with more..
Yeah, at the minute I'm seeing about the same amount of shieldbreaker use as Wardens.. but wardens will only increase.
At least that dmg comes from using skills though instead of a mindless proc that does double the damage of viper over time.
To be honest, I wonder if dive just needs some kind of proc treatment - like frags - so when it 'procs' it becomes undodgeable - otherwise, if simply spammed, it is (mostly)dodgeable..
Imho, its fine for there to be ranged abilities that can totally counter your main defence - forcing you to use a secondary defence that you're not really built for - but it shouldn't be spammable..
Ohh how about when it procs undodgeable and unblockable?
Why not even make it go through shields?Strider_Roshin wrote: »How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...
People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.
Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.
Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.
It was changed because Undaunted skills were meant for group play by providing easy synergies. Same reason why Trapping Webs was changed from a Magicka Spammable (loved by DW Sorcs), to a Stamina ground DoT
Anyways,
Dive is really strong, and I can understand the reasoning of making it undodgeable since it has a delay
However, I'm not a fan of the skill and I would prefer it if they reworked it (in a way that is still beneficial).
Frags and Flare have delays as well. Are these undodgable? Plus they also have a cast time.3 -
Tryxus✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...
People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.
Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.
Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.
Come on man dodge roll + Stam based ward + strongest HoTs? Yeah that's op - and why it stopped. Imagine if magicka could use magic for dodge roll (lich?)leepalmer95 wrote: »There's nothing worse than having your main defence totally negated by a simple ranged spammable...
Oh, we're not talking about shieldbreaker?
Shieldbreaker should be gone as well but:
2.1k dmg per light attack
5-7k crit dmg from birds...
Ones a niche set people barely use, another is a spammable class skill from the only new class in 3 years.
Wonder which one im going to be hit with more..
Yeah, at the minute I'm seeing about the same amount of shieldbreaker use as Wardens.. but wardens will only increase.
At least that dmg comes from using skills though instead of a mindless proc that does double the damage of viper over time.
To be honest, I wonder if dive just needs some kind of proc treatment - like frags - so when it 'procs' it becomes undodgeable - otherwise, if simply spammed, it is (mostly)dodgeable..
Imho, its fine for there to be ranged abilities that can totally counter your main defence - forcing you to use a secondary defence that you're not really built for - but it shouldn't be spammable..
Ohh how about when it procs undodgeable and unblockable?
Why not even make it go through shields?Strider_Roshin wrote: »How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...
People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.
Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.
Damage shields are so OP that when Bone Shield was briefly turned into a stam shield it was revoked immediately due to all the magicka tears.
It was changed because Undaunted skills were meant for group play by providing easy synergies. Same reason why Trapping Webs was changed from a Magicka Spammable (loved by DW Sorcs), to a Stamina ground DoT
Anyways,
Dive is really strong, and I can understand the reasoning of making it undodgeable since it has a delay
However, I'm not a fan of the skill and I would prefer it if they reworked it (in a way that is still beneficial).
Frags and Flare have delays as well. Are these undodgable? Plus they also have a cast time.
Frags can be procced into smth that does way more damage, Flare grants a power buff. Guess ZOS wanted to give this skill its own special smth."We're all born under the same sky and on the same earth. Therefore, we all deserve the same amount of respect."
Tryxus of the Undying Song - Warden - PC/EU0 -
Izaki✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Look at Dive this way:
More damage than Surprise Attack
Cheaper than Surprise Attack
Undodgeable unlike Surprise Attack
Has a 28m range vs 5m range of Surprise Attack
Activates a defensive passive just like Surprise Attack (Bond with Nature/Shadow Barrier respectively)
The only thing Surprise Attack has going for it is Major Fracture (which in PvE is a redundant buff)
The animation really needs to be sped up because the delay before damage is hurting the class in a big way in vMA for example, its also extremely clunky to use. The fact that the damage is delayed also causes bugs where you'd get sniped by birds in rapid succession if the attacker is spamming the ability.Edited by Izaki on July 5, 2017 5:47PM@ Izaki #PCEU
#FrenchKiss #GoneFor2YearsAndMyGuildDoesn'tRaidAnymore
#MoreDPSthanYou
#Stamblade3 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭IzakiBrotherSs wrote: »Look at Dive this way:
More damage than Surprise Attack
Cheaper than Surprise Attack
Undodgeable unlike Surprise Attack
Has a 28m range vs 5m range of Surprise Attack
Activates a defensive passive just like Surprise Attack (Bond with Nature/Shadow Barrier respectively)
The only thing Surprise Attack has going for it is Major Fracture (which in PvE is a redundant buff)
The animation really needs to be sped up because the delay before damage is hurting the class in a big way in vMA for example, its also extremely clunky to use. The fact that the damage is delayed also causes bugs where you'd get sniped by birds in rapid succession if the attacker is spamming the ability.
Look at surprise attack this way:
Buff its damage, make it undodgeable
Remove all other damage dealing skills except Grim Focus
Now its fair right? No? Maybe because comparing skills 1v1 is just stupid argument? And this is me not defending dive, just pointing out your mindset error.
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Okay, let's analyze it step by step.
Costs
Frags - 4050, 2025 if procced
Flare - 3240
Dive - 2431
Compared to Dive Flare costs 1/3 more, Frags 2/3 more or 1/5 less if procced.
Travel Time
Frags - yes
Flare - yes
Dive - yes
No difference here, so "but dive has a travel time" can't be a reason for the undodgeability
Cast time
Frags - yes 1s/ no if procced
Flare - yes 1.1s
Dive - no
Since Frags and Flare have a cast time, they can't be spammed with the frequency of dive.
Even if Frags are proccable they can't be spammed like dive, since you have to do something to procc them.
Extras
Frags - stun, +10% dmg if procced
Flare - Empower, Major Defile
Dive - +15% (?) more damage depending on distance, undodgeable
This seems pretty balanced when you only look at these, but mind that each of these skills have to actually hit the opponent to deploy damage and debuffs/ CC. What leads to...
Counters/ Downsides:
Frags - interruptable, dodgeable, blockable, LoS, cloak, have to be procced, stun negated by block
Flare - interruptable, dodgeable, blockable, LoS, cloak, (afaik defile negated by block)
Dive - blockable, LoS, cloak
So, to conclude Dive is, unlike Frags and Flare, a spammable ability. Frags and Flare have some big extras but they also have many ways to be completly countered or at least to shut down the cc/debuff. Therefore I think Frags and Flare are balanced.
Dive on the other hand has no real counterplay but to LoS, cloak or block.
LoS is a counter to most (not all) skills but also shuts down your own offensive potential
Cloak doesn't do much on 4 of 5 classes in this game
Block is a death sentence when someone spamms a good damage ability from out of gapcloser range since it costs an enourmous amount of stamina and slows you down what also hampers your ability to back off or LoS
So for the record, Dive does good damage, is a spam, has a bonus in additional damage (by a huge margin) and is a skill with one of the fewest counterplays. I don't think this is balanced at all.
(to add: i know Curse can't be dodged and blocked, but it also is no spam)
Edited by Chilly-McFreeze on July 5, 2017 6:11PM3 -
Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Unfadingsilence wrote: »
that seems like a useful skill at what level do i unlock that on my stam dk/ sorc/ templar/ warden?
That would be around level 1, when you craft that stealth potion
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Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Unfadingsilence wrote: »
that seems like a useful skill at what level do i unlock that on my stam dk/ sorc/ templar/ warden?
That would be around level 1, when you craft that stealth potion
Cool, how often can you cloak with that in 44 seconds?0 -
Docmandu✭✭✭✭✭
✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Unfadingsilence wrote: »
that seems like a useful skill at what level do i unlock that on my stam dk/ sorc/ templar/ warden?
That would be around level 1, when you craft that stealth potion
Cool, how often can you cloak with that in 44 seconds?
Enough to get out of that 28m (+cyro extension) range!
Anyway all kidding aside... there's more skills that are hard to counter for some classes.. ie can't counter fear, you have to take it and then CC break, which is problematic for magicka builds due to low stamina pool.
So in this case dive is hard to counter for a stam class.. either block which will drain your substantial stamina pool fast.. or try to LoS.
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭@leepalmer95 my point is after that burst you either spam dive or time another combo, either way, the delay in dive + dodgeable would provide more than enough time to Regen back to full1 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Dark Flare has a long travel time too, along with a cast time, why isn't that undodge-able?1 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Drachenfier wrote: »Dark Flare has a long travel time too, along with a cast time, why isn't that undodge-able?
Dark flare does have a travel time, but it does not have the summoning delay. Birdie has both. Plus, dark flare also carries a major defile, and empowers next cast. Birdie does not do anything special.
But really, the real reason why birdie is undodgeable while dark flare isn't is because ZOS decided it should be that way. Players often think "if X does this, then Y should too, because X and Y are similar" but that's not how it works.0 -
Drachenfier✭✭✭✭✭
✭Drachenfier wrote: »Dark Flare has a long travel time too, along with a cast time, why isn't that undodge-able?
Dark flare does have a travel time, but it does not have the summoning delay. Birdie has both. Plus, dark flare also carries a major defile, and empowers next cast. Birdie does not do anything special.
But really, the real reason why birdie is undodgeable while dark flare isn't is because ZOS decided it should be that way. Players often think "if X does this, then Y should too, because X and Y are similar" but that's not how it works.
But it kinda should be how it works. I figure i land roughly half my dark flares, if that much, because of the constant dodge rolling going on.0 -
C0ndor✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Okay, let's analyze it step by step.
Costs
Frags - 4050, 2025 if procced
Flare - 3240
Dive - 2431
Compared to Dive Flare costs 1/3 more, Frags 2/3 more or 1/5 less if procced.
Travel Time
Frags - yes
Flare - yes
Dive - yes
No difference here, so "but dive has a travel time" can't be a reason for the undodgeability
Cast time
Frags - yes 1s/ no if procced
Flare - yes 1.1s
Dive - no
Since Frags and Flare have a cast time, they can't be spammed with the frequency of dive.
Even if Frags are proccable they can't be spammed like dive, since you have to do something to procc them.
Extras
Frags - stun, +10% dmg if procced
Flare - Empower, Major Defile
Dive - +15% (?) more damage depending on distance, undodgeable
This seems pretty balanced when you only look at these, but mind that each of these skills have to actually hit the opponent to deploy damage and debuffs/ CC. What leads to...
Counters/ Downsides:
Frags - interruptable, dodgeable, blockable, LoS, cloak, have to be procced, stun negated by block
Flare - interruptable, dodgeable, blockable, LoS, cloak, (afaik defile negated by block)
Dive - blockable, LoS, cloak
So, to conclude Dive is, unlike Frags and Flare, a spammable ability. Frags and Flare have some big extras but they also have many ways to be completly countered or at least to shut down the cc/debuff. Therefore I think Frags and Flare are balanced.
Dive on the other hand has no real counterplay but to LoS, cloak or block.
LoS is a counter to most (not all) skills but also shuts down your own offensive potential
Cloak doesn't do much on 4 of 5 classes in this game
Block is a death sentence when someone spamms a good damage ability from out of gapcloser range since it costs an enourmous amount of stamina and slows you down what also hampers your ability to back off or LoS
So for the record, Dive does good damage, is a spam, has a bonus in additional damage (by a huge margin) and is a skill with one of the fewest counterplays. I don't think this is balanced at all.
(to add: i know Curse can't be dodged and blocked, but it also is no spam)
1.You forgot to mention the damage. Frag proc deal way more damage than dive, and stun. Flare deals more damage, apply major defile and empower to the next Attack.
2. You can't compare just the skill alone.. a frag proc well timed followed by cs and curse explosion can proc endless fury and implosion, building an incredible damage burst. A flare can empower a meteor that empower the javelin into the radiant. The combo deep fissure cliff racer crushing shock can easily avoided (you will take just the cliff racer) and you will have to handle against the next combo after 3 seconds. Now if you remove the undodgable without buff all the other warden skills warden has not any chance to kill any person in 1v1 or outnumbered situation. I don't think sorcs want undodgable spammabile frags in exchange of removing curse shield and endless fury, but that's just my opinion.Edited by C0ndor on July 6, 2017 8:38AM1 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Not a viable argument. Dodge doesn't take a spot on the skill bar, shields do. If stamina builds could get a dmg shield that costs magicka by pressing left Alt, they would use it. Trust me.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Or to answer it now: because your magickal toon CAN use dodge succesfully one or two times. But your stamina toon CAN NOT use a magickal ward successfully.
That's the whole point. If dodge wasn't so overpowered to begin with my magicka toon would not be wasting any precious stamina on it, just the way your stamina toon does not waste any magicka on shields.
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Derra✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
Not a viable argument. Dodge doesn't take a spot on the skill bar, shields do. If stamina builds could get a dmg shield that costs magicka by pressing left Alt, they would use it. Trust me.Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »
Or to answer it now: because your magickal toon CAN use dodge succesfully one or two times. But your stamina toon CAN NOT use a magickal ward successfully.
That's the whole point. If dodge wasn't so overpowered to begin with my magicka toon would not be wasting any precious stamina on it, just the way your stamina toon does not waste any magicka on shields.
Add to that that dodge does not scale in any way with resources in how effective it is and also increases efficiency with the amount of attackers you have.
Imo they should have made dive unblockable instead of undodgeable.
<Noricum>
I live. I die. I live again.
Derra - DC - Sorc - AvA 50
Derrah - EP - Sorc - AvA 502 -
Smackosynthesis✭✭✭Skill is already weak af to me (maining warden since it dropped). Whole class is weak.0 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Smackosynthesis wrote: »Skill is already weak af to me (maining warden since it dropped). Whole class is weak.
Huh, weren't you the guy who said the warding healing ult deserves a nerf bc it's ridiculous strong? Also I don't know what exactly is weak AF about an undodgeable spam that still hits for around 5k on a heavy armor build and for well over 4k with reinforced HA + 55% crit resist. Maybe it's your build. Or I'm unfortunate enough to always run into guys with enormous damage potential.2 -
Smackosynthesis✭✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Smackosynthesis wrote: »Skill is already weak af to me (maining warden since it dropped). Whole class is weak.
Huh, weren't you the guy who said the warding healing ult deserves a nerf bc it's ridiculous strong? Also I don't know what exactly is weak AF about an undodgeable spam that still hits for around 5k on a heavy armor build and for well over 4k with reinforced HA + 55% crit resist. Maybe it's your build. Or I'm unfortunate enough to always run into guys with enormous damage potential.
Yeah, but that's the only thing that feels especially strong. I'm no pvp guru or anything, though. So take what I say with a grain of salt.1 -
C0ndor✭✭Chilly-McFreeze wrote: »Smackosynthesis wrote: »Skill is already weak af to me (maining warden since it dropped). Whole class is weak.
Huh, weren't you the guy who said the warding healing ult deserves a nerf bc it's ridiculous strong? Also I don't know what exactly is weak AF about an undodgeable spam that still hits for around 5k on a heavy armor build and for well over 4k with reinforced HA + 55% crit resist. Maybe it's your build. Or I'm unfortunate enough to always run into guys with enormous damage potential.
you're infortunate and the guy has 100% crit
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sly007✭✭✭✭Timeraider wrote: »5-7k criticals.. Someone needs to give me that build because I must be doing something wrong XD would be a critical on a person without resistances or impen
I have 30k spell resist with 2.7k crit resist. I got hit with a 7.5k screaming cliff racer. If you spec for damage, it can most definitely hit that hard.1 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭This might inform the discussion:
What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”2 -
Ronin34✭✭You guys got it aaaaaaalllllllll wrong. Cliff racer doesnt need a nerf, nor does Warden as a class. The warden has arguably the most in class damage, but at the cost of no cc (besides the bear) and for stam, no dots. The reason why cutting dive "seems" like it has to be nerfed is because your probably in execute range when its hitting you. The dive does a set amount of damage and can crit, THATS IT. Other spammables have other utility along side them. Secretly, the dive is the wardens execute because it cannot be dodged. It can be blocked. This patch has exposed min maxing. Invest more attention to block reduction and ironclad maybe. Minor maim buff or healing reduction. DONT GET HIT BY THE SHALK AND YOU WILL BE OKAY. The Warden is an illusive class so im glad it has you all tricked.Redguard StamDK - Obi (DC)
Redguard StamDK - Hasaan (AD)
Orc StamDen - Daruk (DC)
Orc StamSorc - Braga (AD)
Redguard StamSorc - Blackout (DC)
Redguard Stamplar - Victorio (AD)
High Elf MagDen - Gaea (DC)0 -
Smmokkee✭✭✭✭✭How many stamina builds use shields? Right, none. But I'm still using dodge as a magicka warden with 12k stamina. If that doesnt tell you how effin overpowered a defense that is...
People just got spoiled by it. They think that if dodging allowed them to avoid 98% of the damage going their way up until now, then it is their god-given right to avoid 98% of the damage going their way, period, and anything that the dodge does not work against must be broken.
Newsflash: dodge is in dire need of a counter, and ZOS saw it. Thus, birdies.
I feel the same way about shields.. I mean its way to easy to flip this the other way.
How many magicka builds do you see roll dodging as there main form of defense? Oh thats right, none. They sit there and reapply shields and make my survivabiltity look like a joke and on top of all this they tell me to l2block.. have you ever played a medium armor build? You just go ahead and block and see how it works out for you.
Its unfair that magicka characters main form of defense is still valid agaisnt the warden. They need to be banished to block gameplay as well.
People have gotten even more spoiled with there massive damage sheilds.. just press one single button for insane survivabiltity. Meanwhile the medium armor build is damn near mashing every button on the controller to try and survive and some warden comes through and cuts straight through his main form of defense without even trying.. without even landing a cc. Its pathetic and if you think this indirect nerf to roll dodge builds is ok, then I hope the next thing that happens is its buffed to go through sheilds.. then you wont be roll dodging anymore bud and we can all play block tanks.Edited by Smmokkee on July 6, 2017 1:05PM2 -
Timeraider✭✭✭You guys got it aaaaaaalllllllll wrong. Cliff racer doesnt need a nerf, nor does Warden as a class. The warden has arguably the most in class damage, but at the cost of no cc (besides the bear) and for stam, no dots. The reason why cutting dive "seems" like it has to be nerfed is because your probably in execute range when its hitting you. The dive does a set amount of damage and can crit, THATS IT. Other spammables have other utility along side them. Secretly, the dive is the wardens execute because it cannot be dodged. It can be blocked. This patch has exposed min maxing. Invest more attention to block reduction and ironclad maybe. Minor maim buff or healing reduction. DONT GET HIT BY THE SHALK AND YOU WILL BE OKAY. The Warden is an illusive class so im glad it has you all tricked.
Most class damage and no cc.? You nmust either be joking or 180 degrees wrong. Dive is the only damage skill warden has. Agree with the countertactics. Dodging should never be the "be all, end all".. Not that i care as none of my builds use it so wouldnt care if it got nerfed into thr ground for my own sake XDFeralclaw - EU - AD
Khajit Warden - Werewolf Warden
Also own:
lvl 50 Templar PvP Healer (Dunmer)
2 lvl 50 Magicka Staff / Stamina / Healer Nightblade's (Khajit/Dunmer)
lvl 50 Magicka Sorcerer (Dunmer)0 -
C0ndor✭✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »This might inform the discussion:
What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...
Lol dude, if you dided from cr spam from one guy and with a stamplar than it's just a ltp issue. You could put up rally and vigor and burst him down with pol.. this is just a "proof" that you made for the post or just ltp issue? Cmon dude3 -
MurderMostFoul✭✭✭✭✭
✭MurderMostFoul wrote: »This might inform the discussion:
What happens when you get caught in the open by a dive spammer as stamplar...
Lol dude, if you dided from cr spam from one guy and with a stamplar than it's just a ltp issue. You could put up rally and vigor and burst him down with pol.. this is just a "proof" that you made for the post or just ltp issue? Cmon dude
I was OOS, so I would have died anyways, I just thought this was too funny not to post in this thread.“There is nothing either good or bad, but thinking makes it so.”0 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
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Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.0
