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Dive needs to be dodgeable
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Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
3 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses (so much that it is worth it even for magicka builds who barely have any stamina to spare) that it absolutely needs more counters.
Edited by Sharee on July 6, 2017 7:37PM1 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses that it absolutely needs more counters.
Damage shields were temporarily available for stamina, and it was very much so utilized because it's stronger and more reliable than dodge rolling.
However the issue with this is that stamina could now use damage shields, and effectively dodge roll. Whereas if magicka tries to dodge roll to the same degree it makes them more vulnerable to CCs.
Giving stam damage shields would make them unkillable; which is why it was a gross imbalance.
So now we're back to magicka (light armor) using shields or in the case of magplars BoL spamming, stamina (medium armor) using dodge rolling, and tanks (heavy armor) using block as their main means of defense.
However you can shield every ability in the game, you can block most abilities, and the list of undodgeable abilities is becoming so extensive that you start asking yourself why even bother?
And the ironic part is that dodge rolling is the most punishing mechanic out of the three.
Tanks get their resources from Constitution and heavy attacks so the stop in stam regen isn't that big of a deal.
Magicka gets zero negative repercussions for spamming shields.
Stam gets a 33% cost increase each time they want to dodge roll again within 4 seconds.
The imbalance doesn't stop there. Currently resource management is much easier for Magicka since pulling off heavy attacks with a resto staff is easier to pull off, and more rewarding (especially if you run heavy armor). On top of that your resource pool isn't tied in with CC breaking, Dodge rolling, an blocking (unless you're using a Frost staff). This of course means that your regen isn't halted every time you want to block cast or bash/dodge roll if you're on console.
I typically have around 1400 magicka regen when PvPing with my magicka characters in non-CP whereas I have around 2200 stam regen with my stam characters.
When it comes to cost reduction and regen bonuses both LA and MA give the same.
When it comes to crit chance stam can potentially get a little more since it's given per piece; whereas with LA it's a flat value with 5 pieces (encouraging a 5/1/1 setup).
LA gives more spell resistance (useless with an active damage shield); whereas MA gets cost reduction for dodge rolling (a strong passive for a situationally strong defense mechanic).
However the penetration you get from LA is by far superior to the +12% WD you get from MA.
ESO has been pretty anti-stam for quite some time, and I'm not expecting them to change any time soon. What pisses me off is the ever expanding list of items/abilities that keeps taking a dump on stam.3 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses that it absolutely needs more counters.
Damage shields were temporarily available for stamina, and it was very much so utilized because it's stronger and more reliable than dodge rolling.
However the issue with this is that stamina could now use damage shields, and effectively dodge roll. Whereas if magicka tries to dodge roll to the same degree it makes them more vulnerable to CCs.
Giving stam damage shields would make them unkillable; which is why it was a gross imbalance.
So now we're back to magicka (light armor) using shields or in the case of magplars BoL spamming, stamina (medium armor) using dodge rolling, and tanks (heavy armor) using block as their main means of defense.
However you can shield every ability in the game, you can block most abilities, and the list of undodgeable abilities is becoming so extensive that you start asking yourself why even bother?
And the ironic part is that dodge rolling is the most punishing mechanic out of the three.
Tanks get their resources from Constitution and heavy attacks so the stop in stam regen isn't that big of a deal.
Magicka gets zero negative repercussions for spamming shields.
Stam gets a 33% cost increase each time they want to dodge roll again within 4 seconds.
The imbalance doesn't stop there. Currently resource management is much easier for Magicka since pulling off heavy attacks with a resto staff is easier to pull off, and more rewarding (especially if you run heavy armor). On top of that your resource pool isn't tied in with CC breaking, Dodge rolling, an blocking (unless you're using a Frost staff). This of course means that your regen isn't halted every time you want to block cast or bash/dodge roll if you're on console.
I typically have around 1400 magicka regen when PvPing with my magicka characters in non-CP whereas I have around 2200 stam regen with my stam characters.
When it comes to cost reduction and regen bonuses both LA and MA give the same.
When it comes to crit chance stam can potentially get a little more since it's given per piece; whereas with LA it's a flat value with 5 pieces (encouraging a 5/1/1 setup).
LA gives more spell resistance (useless with an active damage shield); whereas MA gets cost reduction for dodge rolling (a strong passive for a situationally strong defense mechanic).
However the penetration you get from LA is by far superior to the +12% WD you get from MA.
ESO has been pretty anti-stam for quite some time, and I'm not expecting them to change any time soon. What pisses me off is the ever expanding list of items/abilities that keeps taking a dump on stam.
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build3 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses that it absolutely needs more counters.
Damage shields were temporarily available for stamina, and it was very much so utilized because it's stronger and more reliable than dodge rolling.
However the issue with this is that stamina could now use damage shields, and effectively dodge roll. Whereas if magicka tries to dodge roll to the same degree it makes them more vulnerable to CCs.
Giving stam damage shields would make them unkillable; which is why it was a gross imbalance.
So now we're back to magicka (light armor) using shields or in the case of magplars BoL spamming, stamina (medium armor) using dodge rolling, and tanks (heavy armor) using block as their main means of defense.
However you can shield every ability in the game, you can block most abilities, and the list of undodgeable abilities is becoming so extensive that you start asking yourself why even bother?
And the ironic part is that dodge rolling is the most punishing mechanic out of the three.
Tanks get their resources from Constitution and heavy attacks so the stop in stam regen isn't that big of a deal.
Magicka gets zero negative repercussions for spamming shields.
Stam gets a 33% cost increase each time they want to dodge roll again within 4 seconds.
The imbalance doesn't stop there. Currently resource management is much easier for Magicka since pulling off heavy attacks with a resto staff is easier to pull off, and more rewarding (especially if you run heavy armor). On top of that your resource pool isn't tied in with CC breaking, Dodge rolling, an blocking (unless you're using a Frost staff). This of course means that your regen isn't halted every time you want to block cast or bash/dodge roll if you're on console.
I typically have around 1400 magicka regen when PvPing with my magicka characters in non-CP whereas I have around 2200 stam regen with my stam characters.
When it comes to cost reduction and regen bonuses both LA and MA give the same.
When it comes to crit chance stam can potentially get a little more since it's given per piece; whereas with LA it's a flat value with 5 pieces (encouraging a 5/1/1 setup).
LA gives more spell resistance (useless with an active damage shield); whereas MA gets cost reduction for dodge rolling (a strong passive for a situationally strong defense mechanic).
However the penetration you get from LA is by far superior to the +12% WD you get from MA.
ESO has been pretty anti-stam for quite some time, and I'm not expecting them to change any time soon. What pisses me off is the ever expanding list of items/abilities that keeps taking a dump on stam.
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you. Out of all my characters I can consistently 1vX with my magsorc easier. The runner up is the stam Warden. I've killed 4 people within seconds with my stam Warden due to how well scorch + Dawnbreaker synergizes with reverse slice, and the crit rush + dive combo makes it a guarantee kill when you have the aforementioned ready, and if the person you targeted isn't scrubby you'll put them in execute range which makes them your means of ripping apart their allies with reverse slice.2 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses that it absolutely needs more counters.
Damage shields were temporarily available for stamina, and it was very much so utilized because it's stronger and more reliable than dodge rolling.
However the issue with this is that stamina could now use damage shields, and effectively dodge roll. Whereas if magicka tries to dodge roll to the same degree it makes them more vulnerable to CCs.
Giving stam damage shields would make them unkillable; which is why it was a gross imbalance.
So now we're back to magicka (light armor) using shields or in the case of magplars BoL spamming, stamina (medium armor) using dodge rolling, and tanks (heavy armor) using block as their main means of defense.
However you can shield every ability in the game, you can block most abilities, and the list of undodgeable abilities is becoming so extensive that you start asking yourself why even bother?
And the ironic part is that dodge rolling is the most punishing mechanic out of the three.
Tanks get their resources from Constitution and heavy attacks so the stop in stam regen isn't that big of a deal.
Magicka gets zero negative repercussions for spamming shields.
Stam gets a 33% cost increase each time they want to dodge roll again within 4 seconds.
The imbalance doesn't stop there. Currently resource management is much easier for Magicka since pulling off heavy attacks with a resto staff is easier to pull off, and more rewarding (especially if you run heavy armor). On top of that your resource pool isn't tied in with CC breaking, Dodge rolling, an blocking (unless you're using a Frost staff). This of course means that your regen isn't halted every time you want to block cast or bash/dodge roll if you're on console.
I typically have around 1400 magicka regen when PvPing with my magicka characters in non-CP whereas I have around 2200 stam regen with my stam characters.
When it comes to cost reduction and regen bonuses both LA and MA give the same.
When it comes to crit chance stam can potentially get a little more since it's given per piece; whereas with LA it's a flat value with 5 pieces (encouraging a 5/1/1 setup).
LA gives more spell resistance (useless with an active damage shield); whereas MA gets cost reduction for dodge rolling (a strong passive for a situationally strong defense mechanic).
However the penetration you get from LA is by far superior to the +12% WD you get from MA.
ESO has been pretty anti-stam for quite some time, and I'm not expecting them to change any time soon. What pisses me off is the ever expanding list of items/abilities that keeps taking a dump on stam.
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you. Out of all my characters I can consistently 1vX with my magsorc easier. The runner up is the stam Warden. I've killed 4 people within seconds with my stam Warden due to how well scorch + Dawnbreaker synergizes with reverse slice, and the crit rush + dive combo makes it a guarantee kill when you have the aforementioned ready, and if the person you targeted isn't scrubby you'll put them in execute range which makes them your means of ripping apart their allies with reverse slice.
Your stamina Warden makes me envious0 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you.
So the stamina builds 1vX better because the players attacking them are worse than the players attacking the magicka builds.
Gotcha
Edited by Sharee on July 6, 2017 8:29PM4 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses that it absolutely needs more counters.
Damage shields were temporarily available for stamina, and it was very much so utilized because it's stronger and more reliable than dodge rolling.
However the issue with this is that stamina could now use damage shields, and effectively dodge roll. Whereas if magicka tries to dodge roll to the same degree it makes them more vulnerable to CCs.
Giving stam damage shields would make them unkillable; which is why it was a gross imbalance.
So now we're back to magicka (light armor) using shields or in the case of magplars BoL spamming, stamina (medium armor) using dodge rolling, and tanks (heavy armor) using block as their main means of defense.
However you can shield every ability in the game, you can block most abilities, and the list of undodgeable abilities is becoming so extensive that you start asking yourself why even bother?
And the ironic part is that dodge rolling is the most punishing mechanic out of the three.
Tanks get their resources from Constitution and heavy attacks so the stop in stam regen isn't that big of a deal.
Magicka gets zero negative repercussions for spamming shields.
Stam gets a 33% cost increase each time they want to dodge roll again within 4 seconds.
The imbalance doesn't stop there. Currently resource management is much easier for Magicka since pulling off heavy attacks with a resto staff is easier to pull off, and more rewarding (especially if you run heavy armor). On top of that your resource pool isn't tied in with CC breaking, Dodge rolling, an blocking (unless you're using a Frost staff). This of course means that your regen isn't halted every time you want to block cast or bash/dodge roll if you're on console.
I typically have around 1400 magicka regen when PvPing with my magicka characters in non-CP whereas I have around 2200 stam regen with my stam characters.
When it comes to cost reduction and regen bonuses both LA and MA give the same.
When it comes to crit chance stam can potentially get a little more since it's given per piece; whereas with LA it's a flat value with 5 pieces (encouraging a 5/1/1 setup).
LA gives more spell resistance (useless with an active damage shield); whereas MA gets cost reduction for dodge rolling (a strong passive for a situationally strong defense mechanic).
However the penetration you get from LA is by far superior to the +12% WD you get from MA.
ESO has been pretty anti-stam for quite some time, and I'm not expecting them to change any time soon. What pisses me off is the ever expanding list of items/abilities that keeps taking a dump on stam.
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you. Out of all my characters I can consistently 1vX with my magsorc easier. The runner up is the stam Warden. I've killed 4 people within seconds with my stam Warden due to how well scorch + Dawnbreaker synergizes with reverse slice, and the crit rush + dive combo makes it a guarantee kill when you have the aforementioned ready, and if the person you targeted isn't scrubby you'll put them in execute range which makes them your means of ripping apart their allies with reverse slice.
Your stamina Warden makes me envious
Lol yeah with the strength of Scorch, Dawnbreaker, and Reverse Slice it makes stam wardens a monster in domination (it's one of the two rare game modes you play when you're not playing CTF).1 -
Gan Xing✭✭✭✭didn't read whole thread (don't have time to read 14 pages)
I personally don't use Cutting dive/ cliff racer, because it hits like a wet noodle on my build. That said, it could use a bit nerf. I get the thought of having an ability that is undodgeable because it is very telegraphic, however, this is one ability that should have a cooldown time that is longer than a second. For instance, a cooldown period that is the average duration of the ability (from cast to hitting a target). Thus it cannot be spammed. Unfortunately, ZOS won't do this with this ability, or any other abilities in this game that should have a cool down time (like jesus beam), as it reduces the dps of any one character (and their class).Gan Xing - Crafting Nightblade
Elrana Tinuviel - Hybrid Dragonknight
Elentári Peregrine - Sorcerer "bank"
Rán Xīng - Hybrid Templar
Laurïsil Imlachwen - Stamina Templar
Helotë Tinuviel - Hybrid/Magicka Warden
Odin banker - obv banker
Yan of the Red Mountain - lvl 3 DK - not sure when I will work on em
Seeks the unusual and unique playstyles...0 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you.
So the stamina builds 1vX better because the players attacking them are worse than the players attacking the magicka builds.
Gotcha
Magicka builds are the hardest to 1vX due to shields, and stronger heals. The easiest groups are the ones where the DPS are Stamblades, and you kill their pocket healer.
I would argue that the reason why you see more stam players 1vX is because it's tougher to play stam than it is to play magicka, and when you play a certain play style that's less forgiving it forces you to pay more attention, and therefore you become a better player.0 -
Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you.
So the stamina builds 1vX better because the players attacking them are worse than the players attacking the magicka builds.
Gotcha
Magicka builds are the hardest to 1vX due to shields, and stronger heals. The easiest groups are the ones where the DPS are Stamblades, and you kill their pocket healer.
I would argue that the reason why you see more stam players 1vX is because it's tougher to play stam than it is to play magicka, and when you play a certain play style that's less forgiving it forces you to pay more attention, and therefore you become a better player.
Ehhhh. I gotta disagree on that.
those players play with the best, difficult or not. That's why proc NBs, proc SnB DKs, 2H proc etc. I doubt they (especially when 70% of BGs are proc NBs) have some moral line they have decided not to cross
3 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you.
So the stamina builds 1vX better because the players attacking them are worse than the players attacking the magicka builds.
Gotcha
Magicka builds are the hardest to 1vX due to shields, and stronger heals. The easiest groups are the ones where the DPS are Stamblades, and you kill their pocket healer.
I would argue that the reason why you see more stam players 1vX is because it's tougher to play stam than it is to play magicka, and when you play a certain play style that's less forgiving it forces you to pay more attention, and therefore you become a better player.
Ehhhh. I gotta disagree on that.
those players play with the best, difficult or not. That's why proc NBs, proc SnB DKs, 2H proc etc. I doubt they (especially when 70% of BGs are proc NBs) have some moral line they have decided not to cross
We'll agree to disagree then. I don't use any damaging proc sets, and I have less respect for those that do. Why play a game that's going to do the fighting for you? How does anyone feel any sense of accomplishment when their armor does the fighting for them?0 -
grim_tactics✭✭✭✭✭If Cliffracer can be undodgable then Crystal Frags should be Undodgable. If you disagree then make the pigeons dodgeable.4
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Waffennacht✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you.
So the stamina builds 1vX better because the players attacking them are worse than the players attacking the magicka builds.
Gotcha
Magicka builds are the hardest to 1vX due to shields, and stronger heals. The easiest groups are the ones where the DPS are Stamblades, and you kill their pocket healer.
I would argue that the reason why you see more stam players 1vX is because it's tougher to play stam than it is to play magicka, and when you play a certain play style that's less forgiving it forces you to pay more attention, and therefore you become a better player.
Ehhhh. I gotta disagree on that.
those players play with the best, difficult or not. That's why proc NBs, proc SnB DKs, 2H proc etc. I doubt they (especially when 70% of BGs are proc NBs) have some moral line they have decided not to cross
We'll agree to disagree then. I don't use any damaging proc sets, and I have less respect for those that do. Why play a game that's going to do the fighting for you? How does anyone feel any sense of accomplishment when their armor does the fighting for them?
Ask the streamers - tremorscale became very popular due to you know who (he whom shan't be named lol). Not saying you, but the players I'm thinking of went from mag sorc to procs overnight0 -
Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you.
So the stamina builds 1vX better because the players attacking them are worse than the players attacking the magicka builds.
Gotcha
Magicka builds are the hardest to 1vX due to shields, and stronger heals. The easiest groups are the ones where the DPS are Stamblades, and you kill their pocket healer.
I would argue that the reason why you see more stam players 1vX is because it's tougher to play stam than it is to play magicka, and when you play a certain play style that's less forgiving it forces you to pay more attention, and therefore you become a better player.
Ehhhh. I gotta disagree on that.
those players play with the best, difficult or not. That's why proc NBs, proc SnB DKs, 2H proc etc. I doubt they (especially when 70% of BGs are proc NBs) have some moral line they have decided not to cross
We'll agree to disagree then. I don't use any damaging proc sets, and I have less respect for those that do. Why play a game that's going to do the fighting for you? How does anyone feel any sense of accomplishment when their armor does the fighting for them?
Because Zos won't give you class stam skills( Stam DK) and expect you to kill people with just poison dots.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
Glamdring✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »Waffennacht wrote: »
Still gotta say, never seen a magicka build 1vX like a stamina build
That's more of a player issue to be honest with you.
So the stamina builds 1vX better because the players attacking them are worse than the players attacking the magicka builds.
Gotcha
Magicka builds are the hardest to 1vX due to shields, and stronger heals. The easiest groups are the ones where the DPS are Stamblades, and you kill their pocket healer.
I would argue that the reason why you see more stam players 1vX is because it's tougher to play stam than it is to play magicka, and when you play a certain play style that's less forgiving it forces you to pay more attention, and therefore you become a better player.
Ehhhh. I gotta disagree on that.
those players play with the best, difficult or not. That's why proc NBs, proc SnB DKs, 2H proc etc. I doubt they (especially when 70% of BGs are proc NBs) have some moral line they have decided not to cross
We'll agree to disagree then. I don't use any damaging proc sets, and I have less respect for those that do. Why play a game that's going to do the fighting for you? How does anyone feel any sense of accomplishment when their armor does the fighting for them?
U play naked? gtfo1 -
HiImRex✭✭✭✭✭grim_tactics wrote: »If Cliffracer can be undodgable then Crystal Frags should be Undodgable. If you disagree then make the pigeons dodgeable.
too true cliff racer has no CC frag CCs cliff racer takes 2x longer to hit the target compared to frag and frag has a 35% chance to proc for insta cast with more damage and half cost they're pretty much the same spells not to mention warden and sorcs are basically the same class so you're completely right.
Nerf frags.1 -
Koensol✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
That doesn't mean dodge is overpowered... it is just more widely used, because:
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses (so much that it is worth it even for magicka builds who barely have any stamina to spare) that it absolutely needs more counters.
1. Doesn't cost a skill slot
2. Effect is the same for all builds
But that is a totally different thing as being OP. Your definition of OP is a bit weird.
3 -
Chilly-McFreeze✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭grim_tactics wrote: »If Cliffracer can be undodgable then Crystal Frags should be Undodgable. If you disagree then make the pigeons dodgeable.
too true cliff racer has no CC frag CCs cliff racer takes 2x longer to hit the target compared to frag and frag has a 35% chance to proc for insta cast with more damage and half cost they're pretty much the same spells not to mention warden and sorcs are basically the same class so you're completely right.
Nerf frags.
Try "spamming" frags on someone who retreats. See how much you do in a given period of time compared to dive.1 -
Jules✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh5 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.1 -
Strider_Roshin✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.
This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.2 -
Sharee✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.
This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.
Come on man. Animation is a cosmetic thing at best. A skill being undodgeable impacts gameplay in a major way.
Do you really think a game studio would try to fix the former with the latter, without really wanting to have an undodgeable skill in the game? Get real. I bet you the skill's mechanics were locked in design far before the animation even existed.
What they said on eso live was PR, nothing more. It was a "this is how we justify it being undodgeable", rather than "we made this animation so we had to make it undodgeable to compensate"Edited by Sharee on July 7, 2017 12:34PM1 -
SodanTok✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.
This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.
Have to agree with @Sharee on this. "Undodgeable" trait of Dive was not afterthought. Either obvious animation was result and they PR'ed it the other way or it was premise, that made them think how to make the skill strong. The design of the animation is not something that currently supports the undodgeable part. It is the other way. This skill is undodgeable first and slow/obvious second. If you convince them to change it they may or may not change the animation. But you wont convince them to change the animation, because it is undodgeable.
Just simply looking at warden as damage dealer in PVP (either magicka or bow built) just screams THE NEED for it being undodgeable. It is core part and without it the class wont work unless bigger changes are made.Edited by SodanTok on July 7, 2017 12:50PM1 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Strider_Roshin wrote: »I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.
This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.
Have to agree with @Sharee on this. "Undodgeable" trait of Dive was not afterthought. Either obvious animation was result and they PR'ed it the other way or it was premise, that made them think how to make the skill strong. The design of the animation is not something that currently supports the undodgeable part. It is the other way. This skill is undodgeable first and slow/obvious second. If you convince them to change it they may or may not change the animation. But you wont convince them to change the animation, because it is undodgeable.
Just simply looking at warden as damage dealer in PVP (either magicka or bow built) just screams THE NEED for it being undodgeable. It is core part and without it the class wont work unless bigger changes are made.
The class will work just fine, their cc still goes through roll and stuns them.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
Smmokkee✭✭✭✭✭
But they aren't. That's the whole point. Dodge is overpowered, not shields (well, at least compared to dodge).
And you think stamina builds wouldn't use shields if they were just as effective for them as for magicka builds? Because that comes much closer to an actual comparison.Which further devalidates your argument that because stamina builds don't use shields, it means dodge is superior. The effect of dodge is the same on stamina and magicka builds. The effect of shields is not. So it just isn't a fair comparison.
My argument was that dodge is superior because even magicka builds use it, despite the fact that stamina is a very precious commodity for them, and the cost for rolling is very high. If it wasn't so insanely good, they would not do it.
The effect of dodge is the same, yes, but the relative cost is not.
The whole premise of my post was that dodge is so powerful compared to other defenses (so much that it is worth it even for magicka builds who barely have any stamina to spare) that it absolutely needs more counters.
This guy wont stop until we are playing block tanks or mag sorcs.. complaining about roll dodge is pretty low.. lol.1 -
C0ndor✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.
This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.
Have to agree with @Sharee on this. "Undodgeable" trait of Dive was not afterthought. Either obvious animation was result and they PR'ed it the other way or it was premise, that made them think how to make the skill strong. The design of the animation is not something that currently supports the undodgeable part. It is the other way. This skill is undodgeable first and slow/obvious second. If you convince them to change it they may or may not change the animation. But you wont convince them to change the animation, because it is undodgeable.
Just simply looking at warden as damage dealer in PVP (either magicka or bow built) just screams THE NEED for it being undodgeable. It is core part and without it the class wont work unless bigger changes are made.
The class will work just fine, their cc still goes through roll and stuns them.
Sorry, maybe I missed the cc that go through dodge and block.. if you mean scorch, doesn't go through dodge and is pretty easy to avoid, and the stamina morph don't stun at all.1 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.
This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.
Have to agree with @Sharee on this. "Undodgeable" trait of Dive was not afterthought. Either obvious animation was result and they PR'ed it the other way or it was premise, that made them think how to make the skill strong. The design of the animation is not something that currently supports the undodgeable part. It is the other way. This skill is undodgeable first and slow/obvious second. If you convince them to change it they may or may not change the animation. But you wont convince them to change the animation, because it is undodgeable.
Just simply looking at warden as damage dealer in PVP (either magicka or bow built) just screams THE NEED for it being undodgeable. It is core part and without it the class wont work unless bigger changes are made.
The class will work just fine, their cc still goes through roll and stuns them.
Sorry, maybe I missed the cc that go through dodge and block.. if you mean scorch, doesn't go through dodge and is pretty easy to avoid, and the stamina morph don't stun at all.
Pretty sure it goes through dodge, i've been hit plenty of times through dodge.
It goes through walls and ignores 'levels' of keep and such.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
C0ndor✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »leepalmer95 wrote: »Strider_Roshin wrote: »I love that the reasoning behind it not being dodgeable is that "the animation is too obvious and it'd always be dodged." - so rather than just changing the animation for the skill we're stuck with this undodgeable imbalanced mess. Smh
I don't think ZOS made the skill undodgeable because the animation was obvious. More likely the other way around.
They wanted to introduce more counters to dodge into the game first and foremost. Then they made the animation obvious so that people can see what is happening and react accordingly instead of just rolling and wondering why it doesn't work.
This isn't a debatable issue @Sharee they stated in an ESO Live that the reason why it's undodgeable is due to the obvious animation. Not because dodge rolling needed more counters.
Have to agree with @Sharee on this. "Undodgeable" trait of Dive was not afterthought. Either obvious animation was result and they PR'ed it the other way or it was premise, that made them think how to make the skill strong. The design of the animation is not something that currently supports the undodgeable part. It is the other way. This skill is undodgeable first and slow/obvious second. If you convince them to change it they may or may not change the animation. But you wont convince them to change the animation, because it is undodgeable.
Just simply looking at warden as damage dealer in PVP (either magicka or bow built) just screams THE NEED for it being undodgeable. It is core part and without it the class wont work unless bigger changes are made.
The class will work just fine, their cc still goes through roll and stuns them.
Sorry, maybe I missed the cc that go through dodge and block.. if you mean scorch, doesn't go through dodge and is pretty easy to avoid, and the stamina morph don't stun at all.
Pretty sure it goes through dodge, i've been hit plenty of times through dodge.
It goes through walls and ignores 'levels' of keep and such.
Yea, if you stay in the aoe, and it's really easy to see it coming. If you roll dodge outside or simply don't stand in front of it you're safe. Against a good player a warden will not stun nothing without a root or another stun. This force you to use poison or loose burst slotting clench instead of cs/inner/whatever you use
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