THE PROCALYPSE

olsborg

Czirne wrote: »

Every death recap in bg be like:

Why use skills, rly, your items can do the killing for you, makes perfect sense, wrobel is a genius.

Uncle_Sweetshare

Malic wrote: »

SO you build to counter to the burst, otherwise you die.

To be fair, there isn't much you can do with multiple attackers running Tremorscale/ Viper/ Red Mountain, regardless of how you build.

My DK tank sits at 45k HP, Max Resistances, and has Pirate Skeleton to boot, and even when Pirate Skeleton procs and I'm sitting at 82.5% damage reduction (50% from PvP effect, 50% of the remaining 50% from Resistances, then 30% of the remaining 25% from Pirate Skeleton), I still get melted in a matter of seconds.

That being said, I'm no wiz at tank builds, nor am I claiming to be, but trying to tank out the burst isn't exactly an effective strategy.

Waffennacht

Uncle_Sweetshare wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

SO you build to counter to the burst, otherwise you die.

To be fair, there isn't much you can do with multiple attackers running Tremorscale/ Viper/ Red Mountain, regardless of how you build.

My DK tank sits at 45k HP, Max Resistances, and has Pirate Skeleton to boot, and even when Pirate Skeleton procs and I'm sitting at 82.5% damage reduction (50% from PvP effect, 50% of the remaining 50% from Resistances, then 30% of the remaining 25% from Pirate Skeleton), I still get melted in a matter of seconds.

That being said, I'm no wiz at tank builds, nor am I claiming to be, but trying to tank out the burst isn't exactly an effective strategy.

Hey bud, just wanna point out unless you're running around 44-50k resistance you in no way getting full resistance. You have sharpened, then fracture, then sets like spinner's and against a group NMG maybe. At 33k resistance you're looking at probably more like 24% DMG reduction from resistance

rxhymn

Viper viper viper viper

Ranger209

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

Every death recap in bg be like:

Are you running under 20k health ?

Invasion is OP, where's my bat...seriously though the obvious answer would be to do something with procs in battle spirit.
It's so obvious that it begs the question why didn't they do that instead of the across the board removal of crit to those items whether in pve or pvp. Doing it that way would have left pve alone and only have had an effect on pvp. Whether it is done through the battle spirit buff or through and adjustment to the set bonus that incorporates the proc it should be reduced to about 25% power against players. Drop it to 15% against players and let them crit and pve will be so happy.....

NightbladeMechanics

Now I wish I'd screenshotted my death recap against a certain BGs group. Oblivion damage, viper, oblivion damage, heavy attack, viper. Much fun to play against.

We still won the Deathmatch.

Uncle_Sweetshare

Waffennacht wrote: »

Hey bud, just wanna point out unless you're running around 44-50k resistance you in no way getting full resistance. You have sharpened, then fracture, then sets like spinner's and against a group NMG maybe. At 33k resistance you're looking at probably more like 24% DMG reduction from resistance

Very true, I completely forgot about penetration, but even at 15k Resistances (most builds I've seen run 10-13k Penetration, plus Fracture/ Breach), you're still looking at ~72% damage reduction when Pirate Skeleton procs, which is certainly nothing to scoff at.

Draekony

so vipers + selenes + ??

hoppin on this train. hundings?

all divines sounds fun.

HoloYoitsu

BraidasNM wrote: »

Zeuq wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys
https://clips.twitch.tv/UglyDaintyGrassPeanutButterJellyTime

hi yes double selenes and viper is balanced

They are not double proccing.

ill double proc ur family

Can I get that in Spidermeme format?

@Juies pls change title to Aprocalypse*

Minalan

Waffennacht wrote: »

Uncle_Sweetshare wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

SO you build to counter to the burst, otherwise you die.

To be fair, there isn't much you can do with multiple attackers running Tremorscale/ Viper/ Red Mountain, regardless of how you build.

My DK tank sits at 45k HP, Max Resistances, and has Pirate Skeleton to boot, and even when Pirate Skeleton procs and I'm sitting at 82.5% damage reduction (50% from PvP effect, 50% of the remaining 50% from Resistances, then 30% of the remaining 25% from Pirate Skeleton), I still get melted in a matter of seconds.

That being said, I'm no wiz at tank builds, nor am I claiming to be, but trying to tank out the burst isn't exactly an effective strategy.

Hey bud, just wanna point out unless you're running around 44-50k resistance you in no way getting full resistance. You have sharpened, then fracture, then sets like spinner's and against a group NMG maybe. At 33k resistance you're looking at probably more like 24% DMG reduction from resistance

People are stacking impen instead, with the impregnable set and a few impen pieces you're basically immune to crit since there's no cap on impen. Plus you add in heavy reinforced or sturdy traits and what you get is worse than shield stacking ever was.

Since now you can't really shield stack with the 10K plus price tag and no sustain, this is pretty hilarious. You can block and not be critically hit basically forever.

ZOS is unbearably ignorant about their own game.

Anti_Virus

Minalan wrote: »

Waffennacht wrote: »

Uncle_Sweetshare wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

SO you build to counter to the burst, otherwise you die.

To be fair, there isn't much you can do with multiple attackers running Tremorscale/ Viper/ Red Mountain, regardless of how you build.

My DK tank sits at 45k HP, Max Resistances, and has Pirate Skeleton to boot, and even when Pirate Skeleton procs and I'm sitting at 82.5% damage reduction (50% from PvP effect, 50% of the remaining 50% from Resistances, then 30% of the remaining 25% from Pirate Skeleton), I still get melted in a matter of seconds.

That being said, I'm no wiz at tank builds, nor am I claiming to be, but trying to tank out the burst isn't exactly an effective strategy.

Hey bud, just wanna point out unless you're running around 44-50k resistance you in no way getting full resistance. You have sharpened, then fracture, then sets like spinner's and against a group NMG maybe. At 33k resistance you're looking at probably more like 24% DMG reduction from resistance

People are stacking impen instead, with the impregnable set and a few impen pieces you're basically immune to crit since there's no cap on impen. Plus you add in heavy reinforced or sturdy traits and what you get is worse than shield stacking ever was.

Since now you can't really shield stack with the 10K plus price tag and no sustain, this is pretty hilarious. You can block and not be critically hit basically forever.

ZOS is unbearably ignorant about their own game.

Even if you can't be crit you will still take a lot of damage since most people are in medium armor. Heavy has been butchered in sustain and defense which some people are happy about.

Malic

Uncle_Sweetshare wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

SO you build to counter to the burst, otherwise you die.

To be fair, there isn't much you can do with multiple attackers running Tremorscale/ Viper/ Red Mountain, regardless of how you build.

My DK tank sits at 45k HP, Max Resistances, and has Pirate Skeleton to boot, and even when Pirate Skeleton procs and I'm sitting at 82.5% damage reduction (50% from PvP effect, 50% of the remaining 50% from Resistances, then 30% of the remaining 25% from Pirate Skeleton), I still get melted in a matter of seconds.

That being said, I'm no wiz at tank builds, nor am I claiming to be, but trying to tank out the burst isn't exactly an effective strategy.

So youre at 82.5% damage reduction on 45KHP and your melting in seconds (your words).

So when you say multiple attackers how many are you talking about because an 82.5% damage reduction should buy you more than a couple of seconds. Are you using mist form and shield wall? Maybe it's *** up in BG I dont know, I do know I dont take admitted hypocrites and admitted cheaters word for it I mean how could you? LOL.

If you say your melting with that set up fine, Im not melting but if Im wrong so be it. Perhaps shelving the game untill ZOS allows 100% damage reduction might work out for you *shrug*

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A6j4ZClZIyY

Uncle_Sweetshare

Malic wrote: »

So youre at 82.5% damage reduction on 45KHP and your melting in seconds (your words).

So when you say multiple attackers how many are you talking about because an 82.5% damage reduction should buy you more than a couple of seconds. Are you using mist form and shield wall? Maybe it's *** up in BG I dont know, I do know I dont take admitted hypocrites and admitted cheaters word for it I mean how could you? LOL.

If you say your melting with that set up fine, Im not melting but if Im wrong so be it. Perhaps shelving the game untill ZOS allows 100% damage reduction might work out for you *shrug*

We determined it's closer to 72% DR when you factor in penetration had you bothered to read further down, and we're talking about the effectiveness of proc sets, not Shield Wall or Mist Form.

The rest of your comment is just salty ***, much like everything else that comes from those fingers of yours.

Czirne

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

Czirne wrote: »

Every death recap in bg be like:

Are you running under 20k health ?

No, that would be suicidal. But there is usually second guy with viper and selene who doesn't make it into death recap.

Lexxypwns

I'd like to add, skoria is over performing as much as any other proc set. I hate to see it nerfed since its the only magika burst proc set, but it's every bit as strong as Selene and viper, if only because it doesn't require 5 slots

LegacyDM

Hey Jules, why is this all of a sudden an issue for you? Why do you care now? Isn't a problem in cyrodil for all your line of site around rock 1vx but with the introductions of BGs, it's a huge problem now? The hypocrisy is not that you use proc sets, but that you complain when the environment changes and environment doesn't fit your playstyle. Rather than learn to play in a new environment and building a toon that works, you want proc sets nerfed...

With that said, Some proc sets may or may not be OP and may need to be adjusted. This is called balancing. I'd rather ZOS take a scalpel to fixing over performing proc sets than a blanket nerf across the board. If you have an issue with a particular proc set lets talk about it.

BGs are a different game with a different strategy. my team doesn't have issue with using or defending against proc sets. Quite frankly proc sets are the least of the issues with BGs. I'd rather ZOS focus on the following:

premades vs pugs.
class imbalance selection. Real fun fighting against 4 Mage sorcs or 4 Mage DKs all stacking in each other.
Levels 1-49 being added to those > 50.
Groups not filling up resulting in matches ending early.

Really. Just learn to adapt and build toons that can overcome procs. It's not hard.

LegacyDM

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I'd like to add, skoria is over performing as much as any other proc set. I hate to see it nerfed since its the only magika burst proc set, but it's every bit as strong as Selene and viper, if only because it doesn't require 5 slots

Huh? Just block? shield? Spell shield? You can hear it procing. Same for Selene? Just move out of way? Circle strafe? Dodge roll away?

WhiteMage

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I'd like to add, skoria is over performing as much as any other proc set. I hate to see it nerfed since its the only magika burst proc set, but it's every bit as strong as Selene and viper, if only because it doesn't require 5 slots

Granted, a part of this is my magicka bias talking as I do in fact use the set, but skoria is not "every bit as strong as Selene." Selene is quite a bit more powerful than skoria. According to the work of another forum-goer, ZOS's proc percents are not what they appear to be. Instead of every attack having an arbitrary chance to proc a given effect, it has a scaling chance that starts very low and goes up higher than the stated chance for an overall effect roughly equivalent to it. The purpose of this is to reduce the effects of actual randomness, where something could proc many times consecutively or go a long time without procing at all, the way gear RNG works. Some people never get what they are looking for with true randomness. The method they apply to procs makes, for example, burning light (25% chance to proc) to hit very commonly on the fourth attack that can proc it. You can, in effect, use this to rather reliably trigger skoria or selene, like any proc, on cooldown, because these chances are always running. You may expect it to not "run" while it is on cooldown, but instead it procs for zero damage and resets the scaling chance.

Considering that, we can say that both Selene and skoria are about as reliable as each other, which is higher than 15% or w/e. They are not 100%, ofc, so we can add 1 or 2 seconds to both and can rather plainly see that Selene, with the higher damage and lower cooldown, out-performs skoria. As for accuracy, while Selene can be avoided by a constantly moving player, skoria also no longer has a guaranteed hit. I haven't tested it any, but it can be cloaked out of now, at any rate.

As for skoria versus viper, yes, skoria is a little better, but I think it's less than or equal to 500 weapon/spell damage better (out of town atm so working on a combination of intuition and memory).


@usmcjdking Let me know if I misinterpreted your information on the scaling proc chance ZOS uses.

Uncle_Sweetshare

LegacyDM wrote: »

With that said, Some proc sets may or may not be OP and may need to be adjusted. This is called balancing. I'd rather ZOS take a scalpel to fixing over performing proc sets than a blanket nerf across the board. If you have an issue with a particular proc set lets talk about it.

Personally, I think the issue comes from multiple players on same teams running multiple unavoidable burst damage procs (Such as Viper, Red Mountain, etc.), and the fact that these sets deal damage outside of your rotation. By that, I mean they can go off during other animations, and don't require an additional key to be pressed or skill to be slotted. Because they're all unavoidable damage that happens outside of your normal rotation, nothing has to be sacrificed in order for them to work. For those reasons I believe that the damage for these sets need to be lowered, the cooldown extended, or the damage changed from DD to DoT.

Next in line would be burst procs that are avoidable, such as Velidreth, Selene, or Widowmaker (which surprisingly hasn't been brought up often here). These sets aren't always avoidable due to CC, no Stamina to dodge, etc., but they are avoidable. Now, let's take Velidreth and compare it to Selene. Velidreth is easily avoidable (the center ball not so much, but for sake of argument) and has a long cooldown, so there's not too much hate on it in here. Selene is also avoidable, but because it hits hard and is on a short cooldown, it gets lots of hate here. Personally, I think the damage on these sets should be slightly lowered, and the cooldowns semi-equalized (so there isn't a clear BiS).

Then we have the DoT procs, and to no one's surprise, there's not a lot of hate on these. Grothdarr procs? Walk away, but if you don't it's okay because you can pop Vigor to out heal the damage. Illambris procs? Get out of the circle, or stand in it and pop Vigor to out heal the damage. Scourge Harvester procs? Stand there in bewilderment that someone is running Scourge Harvester, and pop Vigor to out heal the damage. These sets just aren't very effective in PvP, and I think that they fine in terms of numbers, but would be more viable if the burst set numbers were lowered.

Lastly, we have support proc sets. These also don't get a lot of hate because they all complement builds instead of being the build. You can't exactly make a build that revolves entirely around Pirate Skeleton or Lord Warden (Troll King is the rare exception here), but they're great additional effects to have. On the other hand, there are plenty of builds that revolve around Selene/ Viper/ Widowmaker, where the rest of the build doesn't matter as long as you have a gap closer and CC. Personally I think the support sets are fine where they are, numbers wise.

Long story short, the issue with proc sets isn't proc sets as a whole, but the burst damage procs and the fact that they do massive amounts of damage outside your rotation. I think any time there are clear, across-the-board BiS items for anything (tanking, DPS, healing, etc.), those items need to be reevaluated and tweaked so there isn't a clear BiS.

Edited for 5am grammar.

LegacyDM

Uncle_Sweetshare wrote: »

LegacyDM wrote: »

With that said, Some proc sets may or may not be OP and may need to be adjusted. This is called balancing. I'd rather ZOS take a scalpel to fixing over performing proc sets than a blanket nerf across the board. If you have an issue with a particular proc set lets talk about it.

Personally, I think the issue comes from multiple players on same teams running multiple unavoidable burst damage procs (Such as Viper, Red Mountain, etc.), and the fact that these sets deal damage outside of your rotation. By that, I mean they can go off during other animations, and don't require an additional key to be pressed or skill to be slotted. They're all unavoidable damage that happens outside of your normal rotation, and therefore nothing has to be sacrificed in order for them to work. Because of that, I believe that the damage for these sets need to be lowered, the cooldown extended, or the damage changed from DD to DoT.

Next in line would be burst procs that are avoidable, such as Velidreth, Selene, or Widowmaker (which surprisingly hasn't been brought up often here). These sets aren't always avoidable due to CC, no Stamina to dodge, etc., but they are avoidable. Now, let's take Velidreth and compare it to Selene. Velidreth is easily avoidable (the center ball not so much, but for sake of argument) and has a long cooldown, so there's not too much hate on it in here. Selene is also avoidable, but because it hits hard and is on a short cooldown, it gets lot's of hate here. Personally, I think the damage on these sets should be slightly lowered, and the cooldowns semi-equalized (so there isn't a clear BiS).

Then we have the DoT procs, and to one's surprise, there's not a lot of hate on these. Grothdarr procs? Walk away, but if you don't it's okay because you can pop Vigor to out heal the damage. Illambris procs? Get out of the circle, or stand in it and pop Vigor to out heal the damage. Scourge Harvester procs? Stand there in bewilderment that someone is running Scourge Harvester, and pop Vigor to out heal the damage. These sets just aren't very effective in PvP, and I think that they fine in terms of numbers, but would be more viable if the burst set numbers were lowered.

Lastly, we have support proc sets. These also don't get a lot of hate because they all complement builds instead of being the build. You can't exactly make a build that revolves entirely around Pirate Skeleton or Lord Warden (Troll King is the rare exception here), but they're great additional effects to have. On the other hand, there are plenty of builds that revolve around Selene/ Viper/ Widowmaker, where the rest of the build doesn't matter as long as you have a gap closer and CC. Personally I think the support sets are fine where they are, numbers wise.

Long story short, the issue with proc sets isn't proc sets as a whole, but the burst damage procs and the fact that they do massive amounts of damage outside your rotation. I think any time there are clear, across-the-board BiS items for anything (tanking, DPS, healing, etc.), those items need to be reevaluated, and tweaked so there isn't a clear BiS.

I agree with this. Well stated.

Killset

WhiteMage wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

I'd like to add, skoria is over performing as much as any other proc set. I hate to see it nerfed since its the only magika burst proc set, but it's every bit as strong as Selene and viper, if only because it doesn't require 5 slots

Granted, a part of this is my magicka bias talking as I do in fact use the set, but skoria is not "every bit as strong as Selene." Selene is quite a bit more powerful than skoria. According to the work of another forum-goer, ZOS's proc percents are not what they appear to be. Instead of every attack having an arbitrary chance to proc a given effect, it has a scaling chance that starts very low and goes up higher than the stated chance for an overall effect roughly equivalent to it. The purpose of this is to reduce the effects of actual randomness, where something could proc many times consecutively or go a long time without procing at all, the way gear RNG works. Some people never get what they are looking for with true randomness. The method they apply to procs makes, for example, burning light (25% chance to proc) to hit very commonly on the fourth attack that can proc it. You can, in effect, use this to rather reliably trigger skoria or selene, like any proc, on cooldown, because these chances are always running. You may expect it to not "run" while it is on cooldown, but instead it procs for zero damage and resets the scaling chance.

Considering that, we can say that both Selene and skoria are about as reliable as each other, which is higher than 15% or w/e. They are not 100%, ofc, so we can add 1 or 2 seconds to both and can rather plainly see that Selene, with the higher damage and lower cooldown, out-performs skoria. As for accuracy, while Selene can be avoided by a constantly moving player, skoria also no longer has a guaranteed hit. I haven't tested it any, but it can be cloaked out of now, at any rate.

As for skoria versus viper, yes, skoria is a little better, but I think it's less than or equal to 500 weapon/spell damage better (out of town atm so working on a combination of intuition and memory).


@usmcjdking Let me know if I misinterpreted your information on the scaling proc chance ZOS uses.

Skoria procs from range though. The set is crazy strong. Something that procs from point blank range should do more damage. A lot more.

Nafirian

NightbladeMechanics wrote: »

Now I wish I'd screenshotted my death recap against a certain BGs group. Oblivion damage, viper, oblivion damage, heavy attack, viper. Much fun to play against.

We still won the Deathmatch.

I am sorry that is not allowed I will no proceed to report you to ZOS and have you banned on multiple levels including IRL.

Czirne

I just tried one bg with viper and selene on me - holy crap that is amazing, people die just when i look at them. Screw spriggan and bloodspawn, those set are yesterdays news.

Nafirian

Pfft all these nublades with viper and selene :')

Shacklebreaker>all @olsborg

Niaver

I kinda hate proc sets, but not all of them.
And the real problem is when you can have multiple proc sets and kill someone in a moment. Probably a global cd on procs would be a solution?
When i go to PvP and die in one moment from a NB, then I see Viper+ Velidreth in death scren I want to quit.

In the same time if I play with my tank, I use Tremor which give me nice damage options and without other procs looks balanced to me. I know many people hate Tremor, but I think really annoying part of Tremor is not dmg but the snare.

Rianai

Can Selene really be avoided reliably? Sometimes sure, i see the bear animation and can dodge it, but sometimes i take the dmg right at the start of the animation without any time to react. Can the animation be canceled or is it just lag or whatever?

Uncle_Sweetshare

Rianai wrote: »

Can Selene really be avoided reliably? Sometimes sure, i see the bear animation and can dodge it, but sometimes i take the dmg right at the start of the animation without any time to react. Can the animation be canceled or is it just lag or whatever?

That's just lag and poor network code, which unfortunately plagues every Battlegrounds match atm.

krathos

Skoria has the smallest proc chance, procs only off dots, has been in the game for years with no real complaints against it, and requires you to build around having multiple dots with uptime which in PvP isn't something everyone can do. It's good on magdk, decent on templar, and meh on nb and sorc. If you gave magicka classes the option to run a magicka version of velidreth and selenes it would be used over skoria in a heart beat.

But this goes back to the core issue. Proc sets aren't inherently bad. They're just bad how they're currently implemented. Defensive proc sets like Bloodspawn and offensive like Skoria have been in the game for like 3 years with no real crusade to see their removal. The buff to Red Mountain and Viper when they were scaled last August is where the problems started and were only exacerbated by the One Tamriel patch introducing a number of new instant burst, high damage, high proc chance monster sets for stam classes.

Proc sets should be restricted to being unique to monster sets and have lowered proc chances that require a specific method of achieving them. No proc sets should be 100% or chanced on purely damage done.

To be honest a proper solution is to change Velidreth/Selenes to 10% proc chance, Tremorscale to 25%. Then have sets such as Widowmaker, Red Mountain, and Viper deal their damage as DoT. This keeps the "coolness" factor for players who like these sets while normalizing them with purely stat based builds.

Because let's be honest here not all procs sets are the problem. It's certain ones in combination with certain others. You don't see anyone complaining about Kra'gh, Grothdarr, Iceheart, Ilambris, Sellistrix, Shadowrend, Mephala, or Stormfirst. And you only hear people complain about Skoria as some half-arsed counter argument to running Selenes/Veli/Viper/Red Mtn/Widow.

Knootewoot

I say remove it. I hate it when (armor)sets do a flat damage and win your fight. This is no longer about player skill. It's about who stacks damage the highest and attacks first with drain poisons and which procs hit first. Ie, the first one to attack wins (unless your a magicka build because look at the proc sets they have)

- poisons toned down/away from PvP
- proc sets away from PvP
- Edit: soft/hard caps

Rianai

krathos wrote: »

Proc sets should be restricted to being unique to monster sets and have lowered proc chances that require a specific method of achieving them. No proc sets should be 100% or chanced on purely damage done.

To be honest a proper solution is to change Velidreth/Selenes to 10% proc chance, Tremorscale to 25%. Then have sets such as Widowmaker, Red Mountain, and Viper deal their damage as DoT. This keeps the "coolness" factor for players who like these sets while normalizing them with purely stat based builds.

I'd rather give all those procs a 100% chance to proc on a certain action and then adjust (=nerf) the dmg accordingly, because a lower proc chance just makes the combat more rng based. I also think, that there are less complaints about skoria, because it is usually the only proc set that is used by magicka builds, so you only have to deal with that one proc and not with multiple procs at once. But it is still free dmg, that doesn't require any more player input than other proc sets like viper and it can hurt quite a bit (at least in noCP pvp).