lynkin wrote: »

Morrowind is the first full fledged expansion, with a new class. The price tag shows the Zenimax shares this sentiment.
To me, this was the perfect milestone for me to evaluate just how much the devs have matured.
Specifically:
How much of a grasp they have on not only their game as a system, but their workflow for pushing changes, developing content, and deciding where they should be focusing resources.

With the release of Warden, the changes to sustain, the new content, new sets, class changes, and BGs at the current release. This is all the paint needed to create a picture of this.
I've come to conclude they really do have a strong lack of knowledgeable leadership. If I'm going to pour not only just money but A LOT of my time into this product, it's sensible for me to expect the developers show the same.
The proc sets and BGs are just one avenue that shows just how much they do not understand and/or care about their system.
They do not have a working system that can allow for the identification the pain points e.g imbalances within the system. Through feedback, metrics, whatever means there are. That or they simply have no desire to know about and remedy them.
The game has been out for quite a while so they have had the time to develop some sort of performant workflow by now, but I do not see any, nor any indication there will be some change of heart on their end to change their current process.

That said I bowed out for now. On top of the mess that is BGs, all my classes feel less exciting than before with the new changes to resources.
All this came to a head, this is where Zenimax is at right now, this is their showcase, their demo reel on where they are as a developer. I have so much time in this game, which is why I care about ESO, but I just can't justify the time investment anymore. I read the forums from time to time, but only to see the state of the game. It's a shame, really.

Some examples that I think really exemplify my points:

Damage proc sets - set damage that can only increase based on CP
Removing crit from proc sets and actually stating it is a solution of some sort

Putting taunt on a frost staff, then making heavy attacks a requirement in a rotation, "just don't take the passive" is not a solution.

The fact passive dodging is still in the game despite the game fully supporting active dodging

The entire mess that is CC immunity/break free - both from a PvE and a PvP perspective
Example, adding a heal on Bow's Magnum Show, but with the requirement the target is not CC immune/has break free buff
The whole LoS meta that evolved from this system that simply causes fights to be wads of moving players hugging rocks
and trees.

timidobserver wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

This is exactly why I didn't get all overhyped about BG's and why I haven't been in them too much since they've been out.
Stam proc sets rule no CP, thats another reason why I generally stick to CP campaigns also. Everybody and their mom is a proctard with a minimum of 2 free damage sets. Also because BG's are too random. I did about 6 or 7 yesterday, got deathmatch ONE time, domination and CTF the other times where the other teams just literally just ran the objectives without having any kills or even fighting really. We should be able to choose which mode we queue for. Maybe introduce a mode where there's no monster sets allowed, lulz.

I like battlegrounds, but I agree that proc build premades are a little strong. The only way to have a chance is to bring an obscene amount of heals with enough damage to occassionally kill them. Of course, if you do that the proctards are ironically going to be the ones calling you cancer.

Jules wrote: »

It's pretty clear procs are overperforming in BG's.

PS: A great clip to prove this imbalance.
https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys

Zeuq wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys
https://clips.twitch.tv/UglyDaintyGrassPeanutButterJellyTime

hi yes double selenes and viper is balanced

They are not double proccing.

Jules wrote: »

How many years has this community been forced to self regulate?
Instead of relying on ZOS to fix broken, imbalanced mechanics and sets, we've become so accustomed to holding ourselves back from things that are "meta" or "cheese" - LIKE proc sets, LIKE heavy armor, LIKE whatever class is best at the time.

Malic wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's pretty clear procs are overperforming in BG's.
Viper is on nearly every stam build in under a week with 0 skillful counterplay available.

Before we jump into it, I'll beat you to whatever you're about to say - yes, I am running two proc sets on my stamblade right now.
Yes I am doing this on stream.

"Why, you hypocrite?"

Why? Because this is best in slot for stamblade bar none. Because to remain competitive, you wear competitive gear. You want to say it's unoriginal or cheesy or whatever else, I agree. It is. I hate when it happens to me, and I hate doing it to other people. It makes for lame, senseless pvp. But if people are going to burst me with proc sets, have free damage and incredible sustain, I will be at a distinct disadvantage to not do the same. If I choose to take the hundings high road, I will take longer to kill people and waste more resources. And because of this, I will have an overall lower chance of success. So it's not that I like it, it's not that I support it. It's just that procs are undeniably effective. As a player who wants to compete, I cannot be expected to knowingly put myself at a disadvantage just because of some intangible video game morality. The set is in the game so it's fair to use. The question of why, whether it should be, and how to deal with it is another story entirely.

This is the dilemma in everyone's mind. To win with procs or remain honorable and lose.
Why am I as a player having to choose between being sportsmanlike and being competitive? Why are these two methods mutually exclusive?


How many years has this community been forced to self regulate?
Instead of relying on ZOS to fix broken, imbalanced mechanics and sets, we've become so accustomed to holding ourselves back from things that are "meta" or "cheese" - LIKE proc sets, LIKE heavy armor, LIKE whatever class is best at the time. The problem with a community self regulating is that only half the community is willing to do this. And as time goes on, more people get frustrated - more people jump to the dark side. Eventually, the entire experience is completely diluted and theorycrafting anything outside this meta is worthless. Build homogenization. Boring PVP with lack of counterplay.

We should not have to self regulate this time.
It's time we look to ZOS to fix what is clearly broken and overperforming instead of trying to force ourselves away from sets that are imbalanced, and yet somehow optimal.

This proc meta is only in its baby stages and viper is already on nearly every death recap of every person I talk to.
It's time ZOS gets in front of this impending meta and fix it before it breaks the integrity of BGs, and ruins their promising growth.

Point blank, it is far too easy to stack damage through proc sets. When you have proc sets, you have enough damage that it doesn't matter what your max stats are. Stats can be crap like my stam nb's (below) and you can still dish out top damage. What's worse, is that it deeply affects sustain as well. Because you don't have to actively choose sets that give you sustain, just change some enchants or mundus around and you are fully optimal. Proc sets open you up to much easier sustain in addition to the easier damage. IE: Why spend 6k stam to do 2-3 different skills when I can use half the stam to do the same damage with just one skill? Proc sets are essentially FREE DAMAGE and thus FREE SUSTAIN. It requires 0 effort, it requires 0 skill, it requires 0 conscious decisions to be made other than to simply equip it. Like playing on autopilot, if you will.

Selene's on my stam nb is hitting for an average of 5-7k and I have 27k max stam and 2300-2500 weapon damage. That is broken. That should never hit that hard with those stats, but it does. Because people are forced into medium and light with new sustain changes, they can barely even mitigate the damage and certainly can't have adequate counterplay to it. They have barely any resistance as it is with sharpened + the major fracture of surprise attack, not to mention the multitude of damage modifiers NB has.

But this isn't about NB. It's about the sets. Because they work too well on DK, Templar, Sorc, and Warden as well. They are just particularly lethal on NB's because the class is designed for damage.

The point of the matter is: procs are ruining any semblance of balance in BGs. Procs are ruining our chance at counterplay. Procs are ruining our fun with theorycrafting because they are so far superior that it is pointless to try to out-optimize them. And it will only get worse the further into this we get. Right now the information of what is best in slot is trickling down to others, people are telling their friends, people are seeing it on their death recaps over and over and considering to themselves if they'd like to equip the same to find some relief from pain of dealing with it.


This procalypse needs to end before this patch goes to open access for the rest of PC and console on June 6th.
This flaw has the potential to ruin the PVP BG experience for thousands of people intent on giving this game another try. As a community we need to demand change, we need to demand ZOS regulate things such as this that are grossly overperforming. It doesn't matter how we go about minimizing their effectiveness, we need to try something.

My suggestion is to add a mechanic to battle spirit that reduces the effectiveness of procs (in BG's, and perhaps in Cyro as well). This way, any PVE builds using proc sets are not made ineffective, and we can find a resolution to this that makes everyone happy. Not sure what the best way to go about nerfing them would be, some suggest that making only one proc set effective at a time is a good place to start. But I highly doubt a change like this would stop anything, seeing as everyone would just run viper. Perhaps putting all proc sets on 1 singular global cooldown, doing an overall % reduction of proc damage, or proc chance, or literally any other method of reducing their effectiveness I am down for.

I am more than willing to hear other people's ideas in terms of bringing these in line with other sets. I'm sure plenty of you have more creative ideas than I ever could. I look forward to discussing this with others and hopefully convincing ZOS devs @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler that these sets need some attention.

I hope that as a community, we can put aside preference for sake of balance, and foster challenging and purposeful PVP going forward.

Thanks for reading and have a great day.

Love,
Jules



PS: A great clip to prove this imbalance.
https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys

dont you love the hypocrites who preempt you with an acknowledgement of their hypocrisy then attempt to shame you for calling them on it with some meme "I know what youre going to say so ya dont say it"

Then they give you some B.S. narrative on how it should be nerfed, but of course they are using it for the "good of the game".

These are exactly the people who have negatively impacted PVP, but do make sure you head on over to the channel and subscribe !

Please.

I never once said I'm using proc sets for the good of the game. So idk what you read, but clearly wasn't my post. I said I'm using proc sets because they're effective. They're BIS. The rest of what you wrote just sounds like salt, childish attacks and mocking rather than constructive conversation. So congratulations, you've effectively 100% missed the point. Always gotta be atleast one I guess.

Oh I read your post, It was a remarkable piece of art.

1. You proclaimed that proc sets are a problem, but you use two of them on your current toon.
2. You proclaimed that you knew people would be calling you a hypocrite.
3. You got your stream plug in, what was it 2-3 times?
4. You preemptively mitigated any criticism ANYONE could have by quickly acknowledging your hypocrisy with the notion that its BIS.
5. You produce a narrative about how proc sets are ruining BG's, yet you wear them yourself, so you are ruining BG's. (I know you probably werent anticipating an extrapolation of logic on the ESO forums).
6. You then proclaim that for the good of the community you'd like to put aside the preference for what was it "the sake of balance and fostering of purposeful PVP"
7. You ended with another plug.

Tell me in your self absorbed self grandeur do you have a gag reflex from having your head so far up your own ass?

EDIT: I forgot 8. you attempt to isolate me as some one off view "there is always one" Well hate to break it to you but anyone with a shred of objectivity who read your post, after they cleaned up the urine from pissing themselves laughing could see clearly the exhibition of vanity you displayed.

So congratulations, you are a self absorbed hypocrite.

saiyan_84 wrote: »

let me get this str8, you're saying stacking proc sets is overpowered cheesy and dishonorable, but you willingly use them cause you want to win? huh? thats.... really?

everyone here is nodding their heads Yeah man I totally agree with that statement. Thumbs Up dude. <<

you dont really have an argument here if you do it yourself....

here is an example that doubles as current news. All these rich billionaires and millionaires on the TV crying about how the world is going to die because of global warming, but they fly all over the world in ginormous private jets that create astronomical amounts carbon emissions. do you see?

the ones that DONT stack proc sets can say hey stacking proc sets is unfair.