THE PROCALYPSE

NightbladeMechanics

The solution is clearly to buff Galerion's Revenge.

Rohamad_Ali

rfennell_ESO wrote: »

Rohamad_Ali wrote: »

I went an entire year without using a proc set . I got so use to dying in 20 seconds I just started running PVE abilities in PVP . I slotted baleful mist , shadow barrier , malefic reef and every other goofy ability you can imagine at the end of the year . Someone even told me @jules told me to go back to PVE in one of here streams . It was the most painful year ever . Humiliation was my middle name .

So finally I listened to another friend and just ran everything . Now when my suits kill a whole raid I am praised by my team . It's not the way I like to win , it's the way I have to win . Honor or not , I might as well not waste a faction spot being honorable .

So you know, the player in question sends nasty whispers and says nasty things about you even when you kill her.

It's not like you're talking about someone respected.

They never sent me a tell it was just hearsay from a friend . Even so , if they did say that they were correct . I really should not of been in PVP playing that way to be effective . I can handle smack talk , I don't get my jimmys ruffled . I don't know Jules personally but we are all just playing in a PVP game and that stuff goes with the territory . Although my feelers did bend down a little . I just buck up and L2P and try to Git Gud .

Kikke

Remove proc sets so stamina becomes useless in BGs please!

stamina has allready gotten stronger in PvE, so why they have to be kings in PvP?!?!

*on another note, this is obviously a L2P issue. Scrubs.

lynkin

Morrowind is the first full fledged expansion, with a new class. The price tag shows the Zenimax shares this sentiment.
To me, this was the perfect milestone for me to evaluate just how much the devs have matured.
Specifically:
How much of a grasp they have on not only their game as a system, but their workflow for pushing changes, developing content, and deciding where they should be focusing resources.

With the release of Warden, the changes to sustain, the new content, new sets, class changes, and BGs at the current release. This is all the paint needed to create a picture of this.
I've come to conclude they really do have a strong lack of knowledgeable leadership. If I'm going to pour not only just money but A LOT of my time into this product, it's sensible for me to expect the developers show the same.
The proc sets and BGs are just one avenue that shows just how much they do not understand and/or care about their system.
They do not have a working system that can allow for the identification the pain points e.g imbalances within the system. Through feedback, metrics, whatever means there are. That or they simply have no desire to know about and remedy them.
The game has been out for quite a while so they have had the time to develop some sort of performant workflow by now, but I do not see any, nor any indication there will be some change of heart on their end to change their current process.

That said I bowed out for now. On top of the mess that is BGs, all my classes feel less exciting than before with the new changes to resources.
All this came to a head, this is where Zenimax is at right now, this is their showcase, their demo reel on where they are as a developer. I have so much time in this game, which is why I care about ESO, but I just can't justify the time investment anymore. I read the forums from time to time, but only to see the state of the game. It's a shame, really.

Some examples that I think really exemplify my points:

Damage proc sets - set damage that can only increase based on CP
Removing crit from proc sets and actually stating it is a solution of some sort

Putting taunt on a frost staff, then making heavy attacks a requirement in a rotation, "just don't take the passive" is not a solution.

The fact passive dodging is still in the game despite the game fully supporting active dodging

The entire mess that is CC immunity/break free - both from a PvE and a PvP perspective
Example, adding a heal on Bow's Magnum Show, but with the requirement the target is not CC immune/has break free buff
The whole LoS meta that evolved from this system that simply causes fights to be wads of moving players hugging rocks
and trees.

Kikke

lynkin wrote: »

Morrowind is the first full fledged expansion, with a new class. The price tag shows the Zenimax shares this sentiment.
To me, this was the perfect milestone for me to evaluate just how much the devs have matured.
Specifically:
How much of a grasp they have on not only their game as a system, but their workflow for pushing changes, developing content, and deciding where they should be focusing resources.

With the release of Warden, the changes to sustain, the new content, new sets, class changes, and BGs at the current release. This is all the paint needed to create a picture of this.
I've come to conclude they really do have a strong lack of knowledgeable leadership. If I'm going to pour not only just money but A LOT of my time into this product, it's sensible for me to expect the developers show the same.
The proc sets and BGs are just one avenue that shows just how much they do not understand and/or care about their system.
They do not have a working system that can allow for the identification the pain points e.g imbalances within the system. Through feedback, metrics, whatever means there are. That or they simply have no desire to know about and remedy them.
The game has been out for quite a while so they have had the time to develop some sort of performant workflow by now, but I do not see any, nor any indication there will be some change of heart on their end to change their current process.

That said I bowed out for now. On top of the mess that is BGs, all my classes feel less exciting than before with the new changes to resources.
All this came to a head, this is where Zenimax is at right now, this is their showcase, their demo reel on where they are as a developer. I have so much time in this game, which is why I care about ESO, but I just can't justify the time investment anymore. I read the forums from time to time, but only to see the state of the game. It's a shame, really.

Some examples that I think really exemplify my points:

Damage proc sets - set damage that can only increase based on CP
Removing crit from proc sets and actually stating it is a solution of some sort

Putting taunt on a frost staff, then making heavy attacks a requirement in a rotation, "just don't take the passive" is not a solution.

The fact passive dodging is still in the game despite the game fully supporting active dodging

The entire mess that is CC immunity/break free - both from a PvE and a PvP perspective
Example, adding a heal on Bow's Magnum Show, but with the requirement the target is not CC immune/has break free buff
The whole LoS meta that evolved from this system that simply causes fights to be wads of moving players hugging rocks
and trees.

people complain about procsets without CP scailing (aka BGs)

LoS has been a thing in PvP games since day 1. you cant take dmg if they cannot see you.

CC immunity, so you dont get CC locked from 100% to 0%

Passive dodge: iz nice, yeh? got reduced.

Frost staff is for magica tanks? less QQ

but can sorta agree on how ZeniMax havent done a proper job upkeeping balance, but find something better to cry about, kk?

Jules

kikkehs wrote: »

Remove proc sets so stamina becomes useless in BGs please!

stamina has allready gotten stronger in PvE, so why they have to be kings in PvP?!?!

*on another note, this is obviously a L2P issue. Scrubs.

Akinos

This is exactly why I didn't get all overhyped about BG's and why I haven't been in them too much since they've been out.
Stam proc sets rule no CP, thats another reason why I generally stick to CP campaigns also. Everybody and their mom is a proctard with a minimum of 2 free damage sets. Also because BG's are too random. I did about 6 or 7 yesterday, got deathmatch ONE time, domination and CTF the other times where the other teams just literally just ran the objectives without having any kills or even fighting really. We should be able to choose which mode we queue for. Maybe introduce a mode where there's no monster sets allowed, lulz.

timidobserver

Akinos wrote: »

This is exactly why I didn't get all overhyped about BG's and why I haven't been in them too much since they've been out.
Stam proc sets rule no CP, thats another reason why I generally stick to CP campaigns also. Everybody and their mom is a proctard with a minimum of 2 free damage sets. Also because BG's are too random. I did about 6 or 7 yesterday, got deathmatch ONE time, domination and CTF the other times where the other teams just literally just ran the objectives without having any kills or even fighting really. We should be able to choose which mode we queue for. Maybe introduce a mode where there's no monster sets allowed, lulz.

I like battlegrounds, but I agree that proc build premades are a little strong. The only way to have a chance is to bring an obscene amount of heals with enough damage to occassionally kill them. Of course, if you do that the proctards are ironically going to be the ones calling you cancer.

Akinos

timidobserver wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

This is exactly why I didn't get all overhyped about BG's and why I haven't been in them too much since they've been out.
Stam proc sets rule no CP, thats another reason why I generally stick to CP campaigns also. Everybody and their mom is a proctard with a minimum of 2 free damage sets. Also because BG's are too random. I did about 6 or 7 yesterday, got deathmatch ONE time, domination and CTF the other times where the other teams just literally just ran the objectives without having any kills or even fighting really. We should be able to choose which mode we queue for. Maybe introduce a mode where there's no monster sets allowed, lulz.

I like battlegrounds, but I agree that proc build premades are a little strong. The only way to have a chance is to bring an obscene amount of heals with enough damage to occassionally kill them. Of course, if you do that the proctards are ironically going to be the ones calling you cancer.

I like the idea of having battlegrounds, but they need to work on some things before I start to seriously invest in them. The BG's I did yesterday left a really bad impression. I was either outnumbered, getting proc'd, or being completely avoided while people just played the objective. Seems there's very little reason to do BG without a 4 man premade with proc sets.

usmcjdking

Proc sets in ESO are not inherently broken. Sets like Galerion's, Aether Destruction, Poisonous Serpent, Storm Master, Overwhelming Surge, are all within the realm of reason. These sets have conditional requirements that require actual intelligible thought unlike, say, viper/veli/skoria/selenes.

Kena 2PC is the only balanced Monster set in the game.

MisterBigglesworth

WTB "Battleground Arcade" mode with no armor, potions, poison, food/drink, mundus, attributes
Just pick your two weapons, costume, abilities, and ready to roll.

Zeuq

BraidasNM wrote: »

https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys
https://clips.twitch.tv/UglyDaintyGrassPeanutButterJellyTime

hi yes double selenes and viper is balanced

They are not double proccing.

Zeuq

Jules wrote: »

It's pretty clear procs are overperforming in BG's.

PS: A great clip to prove this imbalance.
https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys

Chief Exposed?

Sylphie

I know we all agree that proc sets are strong but I don't see anyone talking about why proc sets are used more this patch as opposed to last patch. The main reason why I am currently running viper this patch is due to the medium armor sustain nerf.

Pre-morrowind, I was fine running 3x Agility, 5x Bone Pirate, 2x Veli/TK or 1 shadowrend 1 veli since I was able to still run the shadow mundus and 3 weapon damage glyphs in non-cp. This patch I had to resort to using the serpent mundus and switching out a weapon damage glyph for a regen glyph in order to sustain in BGs, considerably lowering my damage.

Why would I not want to run viper when I can get the same amount of sustain and more damage as opposed to trying to run max stats in non-cp, especially since I'm also missing a VMA 2h which adds a considerable amount of weapon damage. Viper is also easily farmable as opposed to spending hours on end farming for a VMA 2h or other specfic gear sets.

BraidasNM

Zeuq wrote: »

BraidasNM wrote: »

https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys
https://clips.twitch.tv/UglyDaintyGrassPeanutButterJellyTime

hi yes double selenes and viper is balanced

They are not double proccing.

ill double proc ur family

lynkin

kikkehs wrote: »

lynkin wrote: »

Morrowind is the first full fledged expansion, with a new class. The price tag shows the Zenimax shares this sentiment.
To me, this was the perfect milestone for me to evaluate just how much the devs have matured.
Specifically:
How much of a grasp they have on not only their game as a system, but their workflow for pushing changes, developing content, and deciding where they should be focusing resources.

With the release of Warden, the changes to sustain, the new content, new sets, class changes, and BGs at the current release. This is all the paint needed to create a picture of this.
I've come to conclude they really do have a strong lack of knowledgeable leadership. If I'm going to pour not only just money but A LOT of my time into this product, it's sensible for me to expect the developers show the same.
The proc sets and BGs are just one avenue that shows just how much they do not understand and/or care about their system.
They do not have a working system that can allow for the identification the pain points e.g imbalances within the system. Through feedback, metrics, whatever means there are. That or they simply have no desire to know about and remedy them.
The game has been out for quite a while so they have had the time to develop some sort of performant workflow by now, but I do not see any, nor any indication there will be some change of heart on their end to change their current process.

That said I bowed out for now. On top of the mess that is BGs, all my classes feel less exciting than before with the new changes to resources.
All this came to a head, this is where Zenimax is at right now, this is their showcase, their demo reel on where they are as a developer. I have so much time in this game, which is why I care about ESO, but I just can't justify the time investment anymore. I read the forums from time to time, but only to see the state of the game. It's a shame, really.

Some examples that I think really exemplify my points:

Damage proc sets - set damage that can only increase based on CP
Removing crit from proc sets and actually stating it is a solution of some sort

Putting taunt on a frost staff, then making heavy attacks a requirement in a rotation, "just don't take the passive" is not a solution.

The fact passive dodging is still in the game despite the game fully supporting active dodging

The entire mess that is CC immunity/break free - both from a PvE and a PvP perspective
Example, adding a heal on Bow's Magnum Show, but with the requirement the target is not CC immune/has break free buff
The whole LoS meta that evolved from this system that simply causes fights to be wads of moving players hugging rocks
and trees.

people complain about procsets without CP scailing (aka BGs)

LoS has been a thing in PvP games since day 1. you cant take dmg if they cannot see you.

CC immunity, so you dont get CC locked from 100% to 0%

Passive dodge: iz nice, yeh? got reduced.

Frost staff is for magica tanks? less QQ

but can sorta agree on how ZeniMax havent done a proper job upkeeping balance, but find something better to cry about, kk?

Honestly if you're gonna put that much into a reply, why bother? The only reason I can think of is you like picking fights online vs discussing issues. Let's not waste any more of each other's time reading pointless sentences, ok?

out51d3r

Jules wrote: »

How many years has this community been forced to self regulate?
Instead of relying on ZOS to fix broken, imbalanced mechanics and sets, we've become so accustomed to holding ourselves back from things that are "meta" or "cheese" - LIKE proc sets, LIKE heavy armor, LIKE whatever class is best at the time.

Something will always be the best option. It's not dishonorable or unsportsman like to use whatever that best option is. The sooner you abandon that mindset, the better off you'll be.

That being said, proc sets are completely stupid and take alot of the fun out of pvp. You shouldn't feel any shame in using them. They are the best option, if you don't use them you are putting yourself at a serious disadvantage. ZOS is the blame for this situation. Not you, not me. Not the people that posted multi proc build videos last fall. ZOS and ZOS alone is to blame for this mess.

They need to nerf these things in a real way. But they probably won't.

rimmidimdim

Is it that bad really? I consider myself a decent player with a decent build. I don't use proc sets. Never have. I kill and die to all kinds of different builds. I would never say "viper" in my death recap is the reason I died. That would be equal to a tenth a surprise attack​ every four seconds if I could hit surprise attack every four seconds? Maybe less? Idk. I'm not meta, but if this is meta, I guess I have to try it. But I doubt a good player with no proc sets will lose to a sub par player with proc sets. I just don't see it. Cheers.

saiyan_84

let me get this str8, you're saying stacking proc sets is overpowered cheesy and dishonorable, but you willingly use them cause you want to win? huh? thats.... really?

everyone here is nodding their heads Yeah man I totally agree with that statement. Thumbs Up dude. <<

you dont really have an argument here if you do it yourself....

here is an example that doubles as current news. All these rich billionaires and millionaires on the TV crying about how the world is going to die because of global warming, but they fly all over the world in ginormous private jets that create astronomical amounts carbon emissions. do you see?

the ones that DONT stack proc sets can say hey stacking proc sets is unfair.

NBrookus

timidobserver wrote: »

Akinos wrote: »

This is exactly why I didn't get all overhyped about BG's and why I haven't been in them too much since they've been out.
Stam proc sets rule no CP, thats another reason why I generally stick to CP campaigns also. Everybody and their mom is a proctard with a minimum of 2 free damage sets. Also because BG's are too random. I did about 6 or 7 yesterday, got deathmatch ONE time, domination and CTF the other times where the other teams just literally just ran the objectives without having any kills or even fighting really. We should be able to choose which mode we queue for. Maybe introduce a mode where there's no monster sets allowed, lulz.

I like battlegrounds, but I agree that proc build premades are a little strong. The only way to have a chance is to bring an obscene amount of heals with enough damage to occassionally kill them. Of course, if you do that the proctards are ironically going to be the ones calling you cancer.

Of course. If you can't kill someone in 3 seconds, you run behind a rock and QQ to your stream that it's because templar heals are too strong. Nerf templars!

Solariken

I don't mind procs in general, but yes Viper is the most egregious with Selene/Tremorscale not far behind - they are absolutely too strong and should be toned down.

As for balancing proc sets, we need two things:

1. Instant free damage procs need to cost resources when they deal damage. So for example Viper could cost something like 800 stamina when it deals damage. This keeps the burst potential for players that want it but creates a trade-off for using it where currently there is none.

2. Proc damage needs to be tied to base weapon damage. This is only to keep with the intended design of each weapon type. There is no reason that Viper et al should hit as hard on 1h/s as it does on dw/2h.

nCats

The battlegrounds are full of cancer, but it is not just stamina double procs. I've met infinite sustain heals and sorcs who killsteal from distance and cannot be bursted down conventionally. The game introduced way too many sets for all sorts of purposes, and hence the result.

A proper (and only partial, even) solution would be to limit bg gear to the ``reasonable'' sets. No procs, no troll king, no lich, no pirate skeleton, no bone pirate. But then it's not just gear which matters.

Malic

Jules wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's pretty clear procs are overperforming in BG's.
Viper is on nearly every stam build in under a week with 0 skillful counterplay available.

Before we jump into it, I'll beat you to whatever you're about to say - yes, I am running two proc sets on my stamblade right now.
Yes I am doing this on stream.

"Why, you hypocrite?"

Why? Because this is best in slot for stamblade bar none. Because to remain competitive, you wear competitive gear. You want to say it's unoriginal or cheesy or whatever else, I agree. It is. I hate when it happens to me, and I hate doing it to other people. It makes for lame, senseless pvp. But if people are going to burst me with proc sets, have free damage and incredible sustain, I will be at a distinct disadvantage to not do the same. If I choose to take the hundings high road, I will take longer to kill people and waste more resources. And because of this, I will have an overall lower chance of success. So it's not that I like it, it's not that I support it. It's just that procs are undeniably effective. As a player who wants to compete, I cannot be expected to knowingly put myself at a disadvantage just because of some intangible video game morality. The set is in the game so it's fair to use. The question of why, whether it should be, and how to deal with it is another story entirely.

This is the dilemma in everyone's mind. To win with procs or remain honorable and lose.
Why am I as a player having to choose between being sportsmanlike and being competitive? Why are these two methods mutually exclusive?


How many years has this community been forced to self regulate?
Instead of relying on ZOS to fix broken, imbalanced mechanics and sets, we've become so accustomed to holding ourselves back from things that are "meta" or "cheese" - LIKE proc sets, LIKE heavy armor, LIKE whatever class is best at the time. The problem with a community self regulating is that only half the community is willing to do this. And as time goes on, more people get frustrated - more people jump to the dark side. Eventually, the entire experience is completely diluted and theorycrafting anything outside this meta is worthless. Build homogenization. Boring PVP with lack of counterplay.

We should not have to self regulate this time.
It's time we look to ZOS to fix what is clearly broken and overperforming instead of trying to force ourselves away from sets that are imbalanced, and yet somehow optimal.

This proc meta is only in its baby stages and viper is already on nearly every death recap of every person I talk to.
It's time ZOS gets in front of this impending meta and fix it before it breaks the integrity of BGs, and ruins their promising growth.

Point blank, it is far too easy to stack damage through proc sets. When you have proc sets, you have enough damage that it doesn't matter what your max stats are. Stats can be crap like my stam nb's (below) and you can still dish out top damage. What's worse, is that it deeply affects sustain as well. Because you don't have to actively choose sets that give you sustain, just change some enchants or mundus around and you are fully optimal. Proc sets open you up to much easier sustain in addition to the easier damage. IE: Why spend 6k stam to do 2-3 different skills when I can use half the stam to do the same damage with just one skill? Proc sets are essentially FREE DAMAGE and thus FREE SUSTAIN. It requires 0 effort, it requires 0 skill, it requires 0 conscious decisions to be made other than to simply equip it. Like playing on autopilot, if you will.

Selene's on my stam nb is hitting for an average of 5-7k and I have 27k max stam and 2300-2500 weapon damage. That is broken. That should never hit that hard with those stats, but it does. Because people are forced into medium and light with new sustain changes, they can barely even mitigate the damage and certainly can't have adequate counterplay to it. They have barely any resistance as it is with sharpened + the major fracture of surprise attack, not to mention the multitude of damage modifiers NB has.

But this isn't about NB. It's about the sets. Because they work too well on DK, Templar, Sorc, and Warden as well. They are just particularly lethal on NB's because the class is designed for damage.

The point of the matter is: procs are ruining any semblance of balance in BGs. Procs are ruining our chance at counterplay. Procs are ruining our fun with theorycrafting because they are so far superior that it is pointless to try to out-optimize them. And it will only get worse the further into this we get. Right now the information of what is best in slot is trickling down to others, people are telling their friends, people are seeing it on their death recaps over and over and considering to themselves if they'd like to equip the same to find some relief from pain of dealing with it.


This procalypse needs to end before this patch goes to open access for the rest of PC and console on June 6th.
This flaw has the potential to ruin the PVP BG experience for thousands of people intent on giving this game another try. As a community we need to demand change, we need to demand ZOS regulate things such as this that are grossly overperforming. It doesn't matter how we go about minimizing their effectiveness, we need to try something.

My suggestion is to add a mechanic to battle spirit that reduces the effectiveness of procs (in BG's, and perhaps in Cyro as well). This way, any PVE builds using proc sets are not made ineffective, and we can find a resolution to this that makes everyone happy. Not sure what the best way to go about nerfing them would be, some suggest that making only one proc set effective at a time is a good place to start. But I highly doubt a change like this would stop anything, seeing as everyone would just run viper. Perhaps putting all proc sets on 1 singular global cooldown, doing an overall % reduction of proc damage, or proc chance, or literally any other method of reducing their effectiveness I am down for.

I am more than willing to hear other people's ideas in terms of bringing these in line with other sets. I'm sure plenty of you have more creative ideas than I ever could. I look forward to discussing this with others and hopefully convincing ZOS devs @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler that these sets need some attention.

I hope that as a community, we can put aside preference for sake of balance, and foster challenging and purposeful PVP going forward.

Thanks for reading and have a great day.

Love,
Jules



PS: A great clip to prove this imbalance.
https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys

dont you love the hypocrites who preempt you with an acknowledgement of their hypocrisy then attempt to shame you for calling them on it with some meme "I know what youre going to say so ya dont say it"

Then they give you some B.S. narrative on how it should be nerfed, but of course they are using it for the "good of the game".

These are exactly the people who have negatively impacted PVP, but do make sure you head on over to the channel and subscribe !

Please.

I never once said I'm using proc sets for the good of the game. So idk what you read, but clearly wasn't my post. I said I'm using proc sets because they're effective. They're BIS. The rest of what you wrote just sounds like salt, childish attacks and mocking rather than constructive conversation. So congratulations, you've effectively 100% missed the point. Always gotta be atleast one I guess.

Oh I read your post, It was a remarkable piece of art.

1. You proclaimed that proc sets are a problem, but you use two of them on your current toon.
2. You proclaimed that you knew people would be calling you a hypocrite.
3. You got your stream plug in, what was it 2-3 times?
4. You preemptively mitigated any criticism ANYONE could have by quickly acknowledging your hypocrisy with the notion that its BIS.
5. You produce a narrative about how proc sets are ruining BG's, yet you wear them yourself, so you are ruining BG's. (I know you probably werent anticipating an extrapolation of logic on the ESO forums).
6. You then proclaim that for the good of the community you'd like to put aside the preference for what was it "the sake of balance and fostering of purposeful PVP"
7. You ended with another plug.

Tell me in your self absorbed self grandeur do you have a gag reflex from having your head so far up your own ass?

EDIT: I forgot 8. you attempt to isolate me as some one off view "there is always one" Well hate to break it to you but anyone with a shred of objectivity who read your post, after they cleaned up the urine from pissing themselves laughing could see clearly the exhibition of vanity you displayed.

So congratulations, you are a self absorbed hypocrite.

Azurethe

@Malic

Somehow you only saw and focused on the negative aspect you saw, and not what the forum post was really about, proc sets overperforming in battlegrounds

Jules

Malic wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Malic wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

It's pretty clear procs are overperforming in BG's.
Viper is on nearly every stam build in under a week with 0 skillful counterplay available.

Before we jump into it, I'll beat you to whatever you're about to say - yes, I am running two proc sets on my stamblade right now.
Yes I am doing this on stream.

"Why, you hypocrite?"

Why? Because this is best in slot for stamblade bar none. Because to remain competitive, you wear competitive gear. You want to say it's unoriginal or cheesy or whatever else, I agree. It is. I hate when it happens to me, and I hate doing it to other people. It makes for lame, senseless pvp. But if people are going to burst me with proc sets, have free damage and incredible sustain, I will be at a distinct disadvantage to not do the same. If I choose to take the hundings high road, I will take longer to kill people and waste more resources. And because of this, I will have an overall lower chance of success. So it's not that I like it, it's not that I support it. It's just that procs are undeniably effective. As a player who wants to compete, I cannot be expected to knowingly put myself at a disadvantage just because of some intangible video game morality. The set is in the game so it's fair to use. The question of why, whether it should be, and how to deal with it is another story entirely.

This is the dilemma in everyone's mind. To win with procs or remain honorable and lose.
Why am I as a player having to choose between being sportsmanlike and being competitive? Why are these two methods mutually exclusive?


How many years has this community been forced to self regulate?
Instead of relying on ZOS to fix broken, imbalanced mechanics and sets, we've become so accustomed to holding ourselves back from things that are "meta" or "cheese" - LIKE proc sets, LIKE heavy armor, LIKE whatever class is best at the time. The problem with a community self regulating is that only half the community is willing to do this. And as time goes on, more people get frustrated - more people jump to the dark side. Eventually, the entire experience is completely diluted and theorycrafting anything outside this meta is worthless. Build homogenization. Boring PVP with lack of counterplay.

We should not have to self regulate this time.
It's time we look to ZOS to fix what is clearly broken and overperforming instead of trying to force ourselves away from sets that are imbalanced, and yet somehow optimal.

This proc meta is only in its baby stages and viper is already on nearly every death recap of every person I talk to.
It's time ZOS gets in front of this impending meta and fix it before it breaks the integrity of BGs, and ruins their promising growth.

Point blank, it is far too easy to stack damage through proc sets. When you have proc sets, you have enough damage that it doesn't matter what your max stats are. Stats can be crap like my stam nb's (below) and you can still dish out top damage. What's worse, is that it deeply affects sustain as well. Because you don't have to actively choose sets that give you sustain, just change some enchants or mundus around and you are fully optimal. Proc sets open you up to much easier sustain in addition to the easier damage. IE: Why spend 6k stam to do 2-3 different skills when I can use half the stam to do the same damage with just one skill? Proc sets are essentially FREE DAMAGE and thus FREE SUSTAIN. It requires 0 effort, it requires 0 skill, it requires 0 conscious decisions to be made other than to simply equip it. Like playing on autopilot, if you will.

Selene's on my stam nb is hitting for an average of 5-7k and I have 27k max stam and 2300-2500 weapon damage. That is broken. That should never hit that hard with those stats, but it does. Because people are forced into medium and light with new sustain changes, they can barely even mitigate the damage and certainly can't have adequate counterplay to it. They have barely any resistance as it is with sharpened + the major fracture of surprise attack, not to mention the multitude of damage modifiers NB has.

But this isn't about NB. It's about the sets. Because they work too well on DK, Templar, Sorc, and Warden as well. They are just particularly lethal on NB's because the class is designed for damage.

The point of the matter is: procs are ruining any semblance of balance in BGs. Procs are ruining our chance at counterplay. Procs are ruining our fun with theorycrafting because they are so far superior that it is pointless to try to out-optimize them. And it will only get worse the further into this we get. Right now the information of what is best in slot is trickling down to others, people are telling their friends, people are seeing it on their death recaps over and over and considering to themselves if they'd like to equip the same to find some relief from pain of dealing with it.


This procalypse needs to end before this patch goes to open access for the rest of PC and console on June 6th.
This flaw has the potential to ruin the PVP BG experience for thousands of people intent on giving this game another try. As a community we need to demand change, we need to demand ZOS regulate things such as this that are grossly overperforming. It doesn't matter how we go about minimizing their effectiveness, we need to try something.

My suggestion is to add a mechanic to battle spirit that reduces the effectiveness of procs (in BG's, and perhaps in Cyro as well). This way, any PVE builds using proc sets are not made ineffective, and we can find a resolution to this that makes everyone happy. Not sure what the best way to go about nerfing them would be, some suggest that making only one proc set effective at a time is a good place to start. But I highly doubt a change like this would stop anything, seeing as everyone would just run viper. Perhaps putting all proc sets on 1 singular global cooldown, doing an overall % reduction of proc damage, or proc chance, or literally any other method of reducing their effectiveness I am down for.

I am more than willing to hear other people's ideas in terms of bringing these in line with other sets. I'm sure plenty of you have more creative ideas than I ever could. I look forward to discussing this with others and hopefully convincing ZOS devs @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler that these sets need some attention.

I hope that as a community, we can put aside preference for sake of balance, and foster challenging and purposeful PVP going forward.

Thanks for reading and have a great day.

Love,
Jules



PS: A great clip to prove this imbalance.
https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys

dont you love the hypocrites who preempt you with an acknowledgement of their hypocrisy then attempt to shame you for calling them on it with some meme "I know what youre going to say so ya dont say it"

Then they give you some B.S. narrative on how it should be nerfed, but of course they are using it for the "good of the game".

These are exactly the people who have negatively impacted PVP, but do make sure you head on over to the channel and subscribe !

Please.

I never once said I'm using proc sets for the good of the game. So idk what you read, but clearly wasn't my post. I said I'm using proc sets because they're effective. They're BIS. The rest of what you wrote just sounds like salt, childish attacks and mocking rather than constructive conversation. So congratulations, you've effectively 100% missed the point. Always gotta be atleast one I guess.

Oh I read your post, It was a remarkable piece of art.

1. You proclaimed that proc sets are a problem, but you use two of them on your current toon.
2. You proclaimed that you knew people would be calling you a hypocrite.
3. You got your stream plug in, what was it 2-3 times?
4. You preemptively mitigated any criticism ANYONE could have by quickly acknowledging your hypocrisy with the notion that its BIS.
5. You produce a narrative about how proc sets are ruining BG's, yet you wear them yourself, so you are ruining BG's. (I know you probably werent anticipating an extrapolation of logic on the ESO forums).
6. You then proclaim that for the good of the community you'd like to put aside the preference for what was it "the sake of balance and fostering of purposeful PVP"
7. You ended with another plug.

Tell me in your self absorbed self grandeur do you have a gag reflex from having your head so far up your own ass?

EDIT: I forgot 8. you attempt to isolate me as some one off view "there is always one" Well hate to break it to you but anyone with a shred of objectivity who read your post, after they cleaned up the urine from pissing themselves laughing could see clearly the exhibition of vanity you displayed.

So congratulations, you are a self absorbed hypocrite.

Jesus dude, you really need to cheer up. I have no idea who you are, we have never spoken, and probably never will. I could sit here and go back and forth with you about how I'm not self absorbed or vain or whatever 10 other negative things you called me but honestly, I care more about the actual issue this thread is based on than your petty personal evaluations of me.

Streaming is a part of my life. So sorry for using a clip of my stream (gasp) that my friend gave me that epitomized the issue we're talking about here. I can really see how that one action warrants a comment with 8 - count em- 8 different points about me as a person rather than just addressing the issue at hand.

Like dude. Just lol. You've gotten so far off topic that it's actually borderline silly. With all that intelligence you're clearly working with, you should consider putting more effort into things that actually matter like class balance or PVP balance. Cause the chances of you getting a total stranger over the internet to dislike themselves because of your hateful comments is probably going to be pretty low.

Ps: www.twitch.tv/julesxii

Walks_With_Kagouti

What if we changed set requirements...

Lets just say as a hypothetical; that all proc sets dont start until you have 3 pieces.. instead of 2...

And then to even it out... lets say un-used sets or just the ones you dont touch start at 1 piece.. for a grand total for only needing 4 pieces.

Idk how exactly this would work but its just an idea... people would only be able to wear 1 proc set and then a monster set set if they decide to do sword and board or duel wield. Then you have 3 piece jewelry for agility or willpower. Oh you want a proc set with your 2h or staff... well now you have to sacrifice a jewelry piece thus now giving you a 2 piece or you have to get rid of your monster set... idk.. i just kinda liked this idea

DeHei

exspecially in bgs i tested a full magicka damage build 2 days now. It worked great.. no matter of magicka reg.. I dont have endless fights like with heavy armor buddies. It doesnt really matter what i wear against this procc set builds. I will die, because there damage and sustain is to strong. When i can burst them down too, i have nearly a chance...

BUT, this is as more counterstrike as good pvp...

FENGRUSH

Liam12548 wrote: »

Then big names in the community (LOOKING AT YOU @FENGRUSH ) started to publicly disregard proc sets as a non issue, both on stream and in game. This caused the popular opinion to shift to the idea that Proc stacking builds sucked and were not comparable to certain other builds in the meta.

Not sure what stream you tuned into for that. Ive said I didnt use the viper/tremor build in CP campaigns. And last patch I played CP less and less. Laggy and endless block healers everywhere.

WhiteMage

saiyan_84 wrote: »

let me get this str8, you're saying stacking proc sets is overpowered cheesy and dishonorable, but you willingly use them cause you want to win? huh? thats.... really?

everyone here is nodding their heads Yeah man I totally agree with that statement. Thumbs Up dude. <<

you dont really have an argument here if you do it yourself....

here is an example that doubles as current news. All these rich billionaires and millionaires on the TV crying about how the world is going to die because of global warming, but they fly all over the world in ginormous private jets that create astronomical amounts carbon emissions. do you see?

the ones that DONT stack proc sets can say hey stacking proc sets is unfair.

I'd tell you what would make your argument incorrect, but that would lead to a detail real fast. Let's leave out topics that have had the misfortune of becoming politicized lately.


I think the real issue here is that proc sets are overpowered and overperforming and we should focus on that. I do kind of get where you are coming from, perhaps taking moral offense at the apparently hypocritical actions of others. Personally, I don't think it is hypocritical (not to say I don't rage at proc set users all the time) to use proc sets currently. I have run numbers that I believe to be an accurate representation of the weapon damage equivalence of viper and my numbers suggest that viper is worth between 3 and 12 times the weapon damage of hunding's (my thread has more details, pardon the plug) even though that seems outrageous of an estimate. Even at 3x it crushes its competition (other stam sets). Realistically, from a certain, competitive mindset, there is no alternative and I cannot fault these player for it. Beyond, of course, the disdain my anti-proc bias naturally affords them. I absolutely refuse to use (stam) proc sets. Maybe it's not the moral highground and it's just me having been conditioned to accept them because of ZOS's indolence. Could be. That is where I stand though. I don't fault Jules in the slightest. It's ZOS's inaction or potentially incompetence on the matter that, after so much time, gets me.

Uncle_Sweetshare

krathos wrote: »

I've mentioned this before but I'd like to see all proc sets just become DoTs. If anything, that boosts them for PvE where they're not even really all that popular to begin with and completely negates their burst potential and provides some semblance of counterplay.

Instead of viper doing 7k damage every four seconds just make it do 7k damage over 4 seconds. Doesn't make them useless but gets rid of this stupid burst meta around procs.

For myself, procs make the game extremely boring. Running proc sets makes PLAYING your character boring which is why i have mostly avoided them thus far. These sets have always been this powerful in no-cp, though, so this isn't much news to people who primarily play no-cp like myself. Getting zerged down by an army of mindless players in viper + veli/tremor/selenes is nothing new but BGs just makes it way more obvious how big a problem it is. This is also what happens when you balance around CP PvP, PvE, and forget about balancing No-CP which is now the most popular form of overall PvP (no-cp campaigns and bgs are both very popular).

I honestly think this is the easiest and most efficient change that could be made. Changing from direct damage to a DoT wouldn't change these sets' overall DPS in PvE, but would remove the massive burst they have in PvP. I believe they would still be considered BiS, just less bursty.

Alternatively, if people wanted to keep some of the burst, it could be changed so that 40% of the current damage is direct, when the remaining 60% being a DoT. So Viper would hit for 2,800 damage up front, then 1,400 damage per second over 3 seconds, and so on and so forth.

Edit: I also agree with the people have put forth that proc sets should scale off resources and WD or SP, which would still work with the above.