THE PROCALYPSE

Jules

It's pretty clear procs are overperforming in BG's.
Viper is on nearly every stam build in under a week with 0 skillful counterplay available.

Before we jump into it, I'll beat you to whatever you're about to say - yes, I am running two proc sets on my stamblade right now.
Yes I am doing this on stream.

"Why, you hypocrite?"

Why? Because this is best in slot for stamblade bar none. Because to remain competitive, you wear competitive gear. You want to say it's unoriginal or cheesy or whatever else, I agree. It is. I hate when it happens to me, and I hate doing it to other people. It makes for lame, senseless pvp. But if people are going to burst me with proc sets, have free damage and incredible sustain, I will be at a distinct disadvantage to not do the same. If I choose to take the hundings high road, I will take longer to kill people and waste more resources. And because of this, I will have an overall lower chance of success. So it's not that I like it, it's not that I support it. It's just that procs are undeniably effective. As a player who wants to compete, I cannot be expected to knowingly put myself at a disadvantage just because of some intangible video game morality. The set is in the game so it's fair to use. The question of why, whether it should be, and how to deal with it is another story entirely.

This is the dilemma in everyone's mind. To win with procs or remain honorable and lose.
Why am I as a player having to choose between being sportsmanlike and being competitive? Why are these two methods mutually exclusive?


How many years has this community been forced to self regulate?
Instead of relying on ZOS to fix broken, imbalanced mechanics and sets, we've become so accustomed to holding ourselves back from things that are "meta" or "cheese" - LIKE proc sets, LIKE heavy armor, LIKE whatever class is best at the time. The problem with a community self regulating is that only half the community is willing to do this. And as time goes on, more people get frustrated - more people jump to the dark side. Eventually, the entire experience is completely diluted and theorycrafting anything outside this meta is worthless. Build homogenization. Boring PVP with lack of counterplay.

We should not have to self regulate this time.
It's time we look to ZOS to fix what is clearly broken and overperforming instead of trying to force ourselves away from sets that are imbalanced, and yet somehow optimal.

This proc meta is only in its baby stages and viper is already on nearly every death recap of every person I talk to.
It's time ZOS gets in front of this impending meta and fix it before it breaks the integrity of BGs, and ruins their promising growth.

Point blank, it is far too easy to stack damage through proc sets. When you have proc sets, you have enough damage that it doesn't matter what your max stats are. Stats can be crap like my stam nb's (below) and you can still dish out top damage. What's worse, is that it deeply affects sustain as well. Because you don't have to actively choose sets that give you sustain, just change some enchants or mundus around and you are fully optimal. Proc sets open you up to much easier sustain in addition to the easier damage. IE: Why spend 6k stam to do 2-3 different skills when I can use half the stam to do the same damage with just one skill? Proc sets are essentially FREE DAMAGE and thus FREE SUSTAIN. It requires 0 effort, it requires 0 skill, it requires 0 conscious decisions to be made other than to simply equip it. Like playing on autopilot, if you will.

Selene's on my stam nb is hitting for an average of 5-7k and I have 27k max stam and 2300-2500 weapon damage. That is broken. That should never hit that hard with those stats, but it does. Because people are forced into medium and light with new sustain changes, they can barely even mitigate the damage and certainly can't have adequate counterplay to it. They have barely any resistance as it is with sharpened + the major fracture of surprise attack, not to mention the multitude of damage modifiers NB has.

But this isn't about NB. It's about the sets. Because they work too well on DK, Templar, Sorc, and Warden as well. They are just particularly lethal on NB's because the class is designed for damage.

The point of the matter is: procs are ruining any semblance of balance in BGs. Procs are ruining our chance at counterplay. Procs are ruining our fun with theorycrafting because they are so far superior that it is pointless to try to out-optimize them. And it will only get worse the further into this we get. Right now the information of what is best in slot is trickling down to others, people are telling their friends, people are seeing it on their death recaps over and over and considering to themselves if they'd like to equip the same to find some relief from pain of dealing with it.


This procalypse needs to end before this patch goes to open access for the rest of PC and console on June 6th.
This flaw has the potential to ruin the PVP BG experience for thousands of people intent on giving this game another try. As a community we need to demand change, we need to demand ZOS regulate things such as this that are grossly overperforming. It doesn't matter how we go about minimizing their effectiveness, we need to try something.

My suggestion is to add a mechanic to battle spirit that reduces the effectiveness of procs (in BG's, and perhaps in Cyro as well). This way, any PVE builds using proc sets are not made ineffective, and we can find a resolution to this that makes everyone happy. Not sure what the best way to go about nerfing them would be, some suggest that making only one proc set effective at a time is a good place to start. But I highly doubt a change like this would stop anything, seeing as everyone would just run viper. Perhaps putting all proc sets on 1 singular global cooldown, doing an overall % reduction of proc damage, or proc chance, or literally any other method of reducing their effectiveness I am down for.

I am more than willing to hear other people's ideas in terms of bringing these in line with other sets. I'm sure plenty of you have more creative ideas than I ever could. I look forward to discussing this with others and hopefully convincing ZOS devs @ZOS_GinaBruno @ZOS_JessicaFolsom @Wrobel @ZOS_RichLambert @ZOS_BrianWheeler that these sets need some attention.

I hope that as a community, we can put aside preference for sake of balance, and foster challenging and purposeful PVP going forward.

Thanks for reading and have a great day.

Love,
Jules



PS: A great clip to prove this imbalance.
https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys

casparian

Agreed on the problem. But isn't there a simpler solution? Enable CP in Battlegrounds. Proc sets are far less effective when CP can take effect.

GC0

ZOS, remove procs.

BraidasNM

https://clips.twitch.tv/BravePlayfulMangetoutHeyGuys
https://clips.twitch.tv/UglyDaintyGrassPeanutButterJellyTime

hi yes double selenes and viper is balanced

Hoked_on_ponix

Hasn't global cool down on procs been suggested like a million times? You should only get to proc one set every x seconds or just have them scale with your stats. So running low max stam and weapon damage=low proc damage.

GrimJaw

Pretty much.

Sandman929

casparian wrote: »

Agreed on the problem. But isn't there a simpler solution? Enable CP in Battlegrounds. Proc sets are far less effective when CP can take effect.

I wouldn't recommend simple solutions, ZOS loves simple "solutions" that are never really solutions.

Gilliamtherogue

I never understood why Proc sets dealt a flat amount of damage instead of scaling off your stats like abilities do. This would provide clear choice as well as pro's and con's of each set, as it'd be like gaining an additional bar slot of a damaging ability without having to apply it, but at the loss of overall damage scaling on abilities.

It's pretty simple in idea, find a healthy balance of scaling as many other abilities do, and allow proc sets to operate with Magicka or Stamina, and Weapon or Spell damage. This would do wonders on so many fronts;

1. More diversity. Proc sets are now more accessible to any build since they scale off your stats rather than some flat value that might not scale well with your CP allocation. Certain sets would still be favored by certain build types, but more options helps.
2. Clear disadvantages for running proc sets. With having these sets scale with stats, losing a 5 piece bonus would mean your proc sets do that much less damage, preventing them from going through the roof when stacking them. Having 3 proc sets would mean you have better sustain, but also less overall damage since the procs aren't over performing, nor are your abilities' damage.
3. Proc sets become semi viable again in PvE, helping the average player gain a bit of the massive power they lost from Morrowind. We get it, not everyone in the world can weave like a mad man, do crazy bar swaps; so offering a "free" chunk of damage helps bolster (but not outscale a skilled rotation) that damage up.

Implications;

1. 5 piece proc sets are severely toned down in power, since most 5 piece sets that offer flat stats or other augments are MASSIVE in damage potential. You guessed it, most overbearing proc sets are 5 pieces; Viper, Widowmaker, Hungerer, the list goes on. This would also mean 5 piece proc sets should have slightly higher scaling coefficients so they are not made completely redundant since you decide to run one 5 piece proc set. For example, if I were to pair Viper with 5 piece Hunding's Rage and 3 Weapon damage glyphs with Major Brutaility active, the damage it deals now would be on par with the amount of Weapon damage I have, since I'd be sacrificing immense sustain in the process. Anything lower would leave Viper a never take option, while still retaining a clear gain and loss to running.
2. 2 piece proc sets become the bee's knees. Guess what, they already are! 2 piece proc sets are the most efficient gear sets in the game, offering immense damage in 1 and 2 piece form. This clearly means that they would need to have lesser scaling coefficients so that having a 2 piece bonus does not mean doing tons and tons of free damage. Again, the current proc of Velidreth would be a good damage foundation if I were to pair a big flat damage gain such as Juli or Hundings and 3 Weapon or Spell damage glyphs. This means that full DPS builds don't see a nerf to these sets, while PvP builds would be required to go FULL on damage in order to cheese someone, but at the massive cost of their sustained fight and defensive potential.


While the changes I have discussed are large and would require additional tuning, overall it would fix so many issues instead of the failed blanket nerfs we've seen in the past. Please, let's find a solution that works instead of one that saves time.

akray21

casparian wrote: »

Agreed on the problem. But isn't there a simpler solution? Enable CP in Battlegrounds. Proc sets are far less effective when CP can take effect.

Then people like me at 300 CP won't be able to play at all...

FlyLionel

Let's go into a more skill based PVP. Gilliam said it exactly, there must be a trade-off. Since when was automatic free damage a good thing?

Lexxypwns

Proc sets have always been ridiculously strong in no CP, this isn't a new issue by any means

leepalmer95

casparian wrote: »

Agreed on the problem. But isn't there a simpler solution? Enable CP in Battlegrounds. Proc sets are far less effective when CP can take effect.

Cp in pvp brings even more problems.

Mojomonkeyman

"some intangible ingame morale" - some just call it sportmanship and self respect... You know what that is?

Apart from that I fully agree to your message. Viper et al have elmiminated any of my passion to participate in bgs within about 4 days of playing them.

Jules

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Proc sets have always been ridiculously strong in no CP, this isn't a new issue by any means

Not a new issue to no cp but a new issue to battlegrounds as it's an entirely different world for us. Battlegrounds, if anything, favor proc sets even more than no cp open world because of how fast paced and high TTK they are.

And regardless, it's better late than never to start doing something about it. BG will either make or break the PVP in this game in terms of growing its community. So making them as balanced and competitive as possible is only good for the health of the game.

Sandman929

ZOS has dumped so many proc damage sets into the game that it's almost impossible to reverse course now. Changing all these sets would be an update all to itself. But, if they were to actually take a look at these sets with an eye for balance and competitive play rather how fun and cool they are, I would hope that they'd come to the realization that armor doing damage is ridiculous.
I think they've got some great examples of what armor procs should be already; Clever Alchemist, Kena, Blood Spawn, Engine Guardian....these are sets that proc damage potential that the wearer has to capitalize on through the use of *gasp* their skills as a player.

Jules

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

"some intangible ingame morale" - some just call it sportmanship and self respect... You know what that is?

Apart from that I fully agree to your message. Viper et al have elmiminated any of my passion to participate in bgs within about 4 days of playing them.

It is unfair to ask PVPers to choose between being sportsmanlike and being competitive. The game should be balanced enough so we can be both and they aren't mutually exclusive.

Currently that is not the case.

akray21

Jules wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Proc sets have always been ridiculously strong in no CP, this isn't a new issue by any means

Not a new issue to no cp but a new issue to battlegrounds as it's an entirely different world for us. Battlegrounds, if anything, favor proc sets even more than no cp open world because of how fast paced and high TTK they are.

And regardless, it's better late than never to start doing something about it. BG will either make or break the PVP in this game in terms of growing its community. So making them as balanced and competitive as possible is only good for the health of the game.

The thing is, they need to fix it fast. They can't wait another 3 months to bring balance changes, people won't wait that long.

Jules

Sandman929 wrote: »

ZOS has dumped so many proc damage sets into the game that it's almost impossible to reverse course now. Changing all these sets would be an update all to itself. But, if they were to actually take a look at these sets with an eye for balance and competitive play rather how fun and cool they are, I would hope that they'd come to the realization that armor doing damage is ridiculous.
I think they've got some great examples of what armor procs should be already; Clever Alchemist, Kena, Blood Spawn, Engine Guardian....these are sets that proc damage potential that the wearer has to capitalize on through the use of *gasp* their skills as a player.

Completely agree. Procs to weapon and spell damage, crit, stats, whatever, that's all fine by me because it's damage potential not actual damage. You still have to harness that potential and actually physically do something to do damage to someone, like you said. Very well said.

React

WONDERFULLY written. I sincerely hope someone at ZOS takes the time to read this post, and pass the information on. I'd like to touch on a few things myself.

Procs were super relevant several patches ago when they first got released because of their ability to crit, essentially making any proc stack build a one shot willy. This was when we saw sypherpk release his "viper tremorscale widowmaker" sword and board stamblade build. At the time these builds were the strongest in game, but as the nerfs came to proc sets as a whole and certain sets individually, people started to use them less frequently (bar stamblades, who have no reason NOT to use them with their relevant passives and class mechanics). Then big names in the community (LOOKING AT YOU @FENGRUSH ) started to publicly disregard proc sets as a non issue, both on stream and in game. This caused the popular opinion to shift to the idea that Proc stacking builds sucked and were not comparable to certain other builds in the meta.

THIS IS NO LONGER THE CASE.

I was hit with a 10.4k velidreth yesterday by a procblade. 1 spore, 10.4k damage. 5 medium 2 heavy, sitting at 19k physical resistance WITH minor protection active. This is on XB NA in azuras. To give a frame of reference of what this means, on morrowind live in battlegrounds and NO CP CAMPAIGNS, that 10.4k velidreth proc is probably going to hit even higher. There is NO REASON WHATSOEVER to run any build that doesn't use one or two procs, because it's not even viable for most classes to boost their damage high enough to hit for 10k off of a single ability. Therefore people will stack one or two procs and run a sustain set, and even with a stat sheet with 2300 WD, 25k stamina, and 2500 recovery, they will still be able to kill you in 1-3 blows if their procs go off simultaneously.

It's time that both ZOS AND THE COMMUNITY get their heads out of their asses. Procs are overperforming. They NEED to be dialed back or be made to scale off of max stats.

@ZOS_GinaBruno

timidobserver

akray21 wrote: »

Jules wrote: »

Lexxypwns wrote: »

Proc sets have always been ridiculously strong in no CP, this isn't a new issue by any means

Not a new issue to no cp but a new issue to battlegrounds as it's an entirely different world for us. Battlegrounds, if anything, favor proc sets even more than no cp open world because of how fast paced and high TTK they are.

And regardless, it's better late than never to start doing something about it. BG will either make or break the PVP in this game in terms of growing its community. So making them as balanced and competitive as possible is only good for the health of the game.

The thing is, they need to fix it fast. They can't wait another 3 months to bring balance changes, people won't wait that long.

The combat team doesn't do fast. They probably aren't even thinking about balance yet. This thread needs to be recreated in 2 months.

BraidasNM

Mojomonkeyman wrote: »

"some intangible ingame morale" - some just call it sportmanship and self respect... You know what that is?

Apart from that I fully agree to your message. Viper et al have elmiminated any of my passion to participate in bgs within about 4 days of playing them.

enjoy your sportsmanship from the death recap m8

Reverb

Thumbs up. Sadly, I'm pretty sure Zeni will read this as "nerf Templar".

Mojomonkeyman

As if you wouldn't see the same crap on your recap if you sport max cheese... As someone who has actually competed in truely competitive scenarios, IRL and online, I can tell you that my self-respect and respect of athletes I value is worth far more to me than instablowing scrubs every day or using shady tactics IRL, "m8".

Eirella

Agree.

Adenoma

I think that specific procs need addressing and there shouldn't be a blanket solution. Certainly, things like Skoria seem healthy and have been relevant for a long time but never overpowered, while Viper, Velidreth, Selene, Tremorscale, Red Mountain, and Widowmaker have been persistently problematic.

And to an extent, I think this is due to how things like Skoria and Winterborn require compromise to get the procs. Skoria requires DOTs, winterborn needs ice damage. Both of these enable unique play styles, but are pretty mediocre outside of those contexts. Their stamina counterparts take very little set-up - I've gotta taunt something? Do melee damage? Use a poison? And those effects are guaranteed 50% of the time or? That's a lot, lot less healthy design to me than procs that trigger 8% of the time like Skoria and Winterborn. I just hope that cool sets aren't nerfed in the name of fixing the problem children that ZOS spawned.

Maole1989

Some great suggestions here. Mine would be adding a drawback on these proc sets via a resource cost for each proc or having a negative effect attached to each proc set eg Pirate Skeleton or Leki's. An example would be taking increased incoming dmg for 5 seconds after a Viper proc. Each proc set could have its own unique and interesting negative effect.

Regardless of what change is implemented, change is needed to bring balance and skill back in to play.

Force-Siphon

PvP in this game has come down to two things, proc builds where your armor does all the work for you, or unkillable tank builds. Both are hated upon by the community yet everyone is forced into it. They killed PvP in this game with the idea that armor sets doing damage for you and tanking were the way to build on their pvp combat. The only way they could even come close to fixing how terrible PvP is would be to make crafted sets the only form of armor/weapons that you could use in PvP and introduce jewelry-crafting. This is something that can't be fixed before June 6th and honestly has been something we have complained about for a long time now. Out of many MMOs, ESO probably has the most moronic armor/weapon set up for PvP. The fact that you can do literally 1 skill and kill people based on your armor doing damage is so ridiculous when i tell my friends about it they laugh and think i'm joking. I'm sure it's cool when you're new to the game in a PvE zone and you are running around with some proc set but when it happens to you over and over and over and over and over and over in PvP for this amount of time the writing is on the wall that PvP is not even worth playing anymore. This is literally the same thing every patch with ESO, we are promised balance changes and fixes to make PvP competitive and fun again and it continues to get worse. Homestead was the same thing, we expected the opportunity to at least be able to fight back and they increased damage and basically forced people to zerg in open world to not get 1 shot. The proc meta in battlegrounds is not exclusive to Morrowind patch...it's the same problem we have seen for a year or whatever its just more obvious now because you can't ball up and zerg in battlegrounds so people are less protected from it. Gratz ZOS on ruining PvP, maybe once it hits console people will get upset enough to actually force them to change things but i doubt it because it would require rethinking their whole PvP gearing and combat from the ground up which clearly is too much of a task for them. They couldn't even fix streak for months let alone reconfigure everything in PvP.

Just remove them from PvP. Period.

Flaminir

Just wanted to say that is a very constructive and well written post Jules!

Battlespirit is already used to address a number of other issues as a bandaid solution which has seemingly stuck for a very long time...

..there's no reason that it can't be used to improve matters here by reducing proc set effectiveness in PvP... maybe by 50%, or by adding a cooldown, not sure which would be easier technically for ZoS.

KingJ

All proc sets damage need to be nerfed by 500% in PvP. Simple solution that I'm sure everyone will agree With @Wrobel make it happened.

NordSwordnBoard

New players to this game are going to need a higher tolerance than ever before for dying constantly without killing anybody. Explaining proc sets as they are in PS4NA now, how to get them, RNG, how they work etc., is generally discouraging. BGs sound like they just magnify this problem.

Battle spirit ought to effect proc damage like it does to healing and shields, if they don't make it scale from your stats.

WhiteMage

Every time I used to die to a proc set user I would rage and write them off as a terrible player. Well, since running the numbers on it a bit in this thread, while I still rage, I've come to realize that these sets have no rival. That's all there is to it. It gets hard to begrudge someone their cheese when it just so far outshines their other options... and it's just as effective whether you're in medium or heavy.

The whole thing is a mess; I hope the devs start paying attention. (Because as of yet, they clearly haven't been.)