Skill Point Exploit & Account Suspensions

necronomniconb14_ESO

jaye63 wrote: »

Sheey wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Will punishments be worse if any of these people were repeat offenders?

As I feel whilst this issue was reversible the fact we often see suspensions only leads people to promote exploiting, cash out before the suspension, take a suspension and enjoy the rewards still.

As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.

No. Just No.

Repeat offenders should not be removed from the game. As long as it is game expirienced-related the punishments should stay ingame related and not account related.

Suspending someone from the game permanently is never to take in action just because someone abusing a bug in game. Permanently bans are reserved for Bots and system hacks ONLY.

Concerned you may be taking a 3 day? Doing much exploiting that makes you fear for a suspension? Exploiters should be perma banned. It's one thing to find an exploit. Things happen. But something this severe or game breaking, should be met with a goodbye note and the locks changed. PERIOD. I watched it ruin several other games. I wont play shooters any more because of all of the aim bots and hacks. If you suck, dont play. You ruin it for the rest of us.

They clearly hit a lot of innocents when they do it, and I hope you happen to be one of the first of those 'innocents' if they ever do the permas. So that you could eat your condescending tone. Besides bamco, these are the last devs I would ever trust dishing out permabans. They're very incompetent, and lazy, a dangerous combination when they allow so much collateral since their fanbois never give them any slack in the wallet over it. for now.

ericprydz82ub17_ESO

@Smasherx74

"You want ZOS to tell you how the bug works so you can avoid exploiting it? You think PC and Console have the same patches?

My eyes are bleeding right now."

The bug works by defeating the encounter more than once. We have been told how the bug "works" quite clearly. Plenty of bugs have carried over from PC before and we always deal with them the same way: Make it known on the forums and spread the information so others are aware and figure out work-arounds or just plain deal with something being broken until it is fixed weeks or months later.

If it isn't anything to worry about because it isn't bugged on consoles then there is no harm in them telling us which public dungeon it was. If it is bugged, spreading knowledge to others is the best deterrent and will help those not aware to either be very careful or to avoid that public dungeon as to not get caught up.

Smasherx74

ericprydz82ub17_ESO wrote: »

@Smasherx74

"You want ZOS to tell you how the bug works so you can avoid exploiting it? You think PC and Console have the same patches?

My eyes are bleeding right now."

The bug works by defeating the encounter more than once. We have been told how the bug "works" quite clearly. Plenty of bugs have carried over from PC before and we always deal with them the same way: Make it known on the forums and spread the information so others are aware and figure out work-arounds or just plain deal with something being broken until it is fixed weeks or months later.

If it isn't anything to worry about because it isn't bugged on consoles then there is no harm in them telling us which public dungeon it was. If it is bugged, spreading knowledge to others is the best deterrent and will help those not aware to either be very careful or to avoid that public dungeon as to not get caught up.

Have you even thought about your question? You're asking ZOS to tell you how to exploit the game. If they've already banned 300 people for exploiting a bug, what in the world makes you think they'll tell you console players so you can replicate it?

Sometimes I don't know why I bother reading posts on these forums.

ericprydz82ub17_ESO

@Smasherx74

The exploit is defeating the encounter more than once if it is bugged. We already know how to do it. The bug would be the encounter gives us a skill point for each time the encounter is defeated.

We basically have a catch 22 here where we are both right and both wrong. That is what this whole thread is about. We are asking for them to do "right" by us and give us a heads up if it is bugged. At the very least, they could tell everyone that one of the Public Dungeon group events is bugged currently and we should make sure we only complete each of those encounters once per character.

That is about all I have to add to this thread so I will just stop here.

Fleshreaper

ericprydz82ub17_ESO wrote: »

@Smasherx74

"You want ZOS to tell you how the bug works so you can avoid exploiting it? You think PC and Console have the same patches?

My eyes are bleeding right now."

The bug works by defeating the encounter more than once. We have been told how the bug "works" quite clearly. Plenty of bugs have carried over from PC before and we always deal with them the same way: Make it known on the forums and spread the information so others are aware and figure out work-arounds or just plain deal with something being broken until it is fixed weeks or months later.

If it isn't anything to worry about because it isn't bugged on consoles then there is no harm in them telling us which public dungeon it was. If it is bugged, spreading knowledge to others is the best deterrent and will help those not aware to either be very careful or to avoid that public dungeon as to not get caught up.

Defeating the encounter, makes me think that it was the quest objective. So, if you did the quest objective and defeated the boss, got the skill point, and then waited at the door for someone else to come along. Jumped in group with them and got the kill and skill point again. I think they would be able to easily spot this as someone who knew what they were doing.

Inklings

When i first started playing ESO these public dungeons were hard and confusing to me. I had actually made it into silver before i figured out how these skill point bosses worked. So many new people could have easily been caught up in this ban, with no clue what they did.

This hush hush approach to everything broken and exploitable in this game is not how such a big gaming company should be handling this. It's amateurish at best the way they handle these things. It's obvious the reason they approach these situations so secretively is they are not confident in their own means to not only stop it, but to even figure out who's actually doing exploits on purpose. Or worse they just don't care to put money/resources into the issues and they can't admit to that.

jaye63

necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Sheey wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Will punishments be worse if any of these people were repeat offenders?

As I feel whilst this issue was reversible the fact we often see suspensions only leads people to promote exploiting, cash out before the suspension, take a suspension and enjoy the rewards still.

As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.

No. Just No.

Repeat offenders should not be removed from the game. As long as it is game expirienced-related the punishments should stay ingame related and not account related.

Suspending someone from the game permanently is never to take in action just because someone abusing a bug in game. Permanently bans are reserved for Bots and system hacks ONLY.

Concerned you may be taking a 3 day? Doing much exploiting that makes you fear for a suspension? Exploiters should be perma banned. It's one thing to find an exploit. Things happen. But something this severe or game breaking, should be met with a goodbye note and the locks changed. PERIOD. I watched it ruin several other games. I wont play shooters any more because of all of the aim bots and hacks. If you suck, dont play. You ruin it for the rest of us.

They clearly hit a lot of innocents when they do it, and I hope you happen to be one of the first of those 'innocents' if they ever do the permas. So that you could eat your condescending tone. Besides bamco, these are the last devs I would ever trust dishing out permabans. They're very incompetent, and lazy, a dangerous combination when they allow so much collateral since their fanbois never give them any slack in the wallet over it. for now.

Innocents? Pretty easy to tell if some one hit an exploit by accident and had it happen 1 or 2 times vs some one who farmed the hell out of it. Since you obviously have never been a programmer/dev, GM or ran a server, you need to understand that my comments are based as some one who has done all 3. Bans dont hit the innocent. PERIOD. And anyone claiming that they are when the ban hammer hits it lying or has some one playing on their account which is also a no no. Wake up and smell the gimps who need to exploit to get ahead and ruin the game in the process.

[Edit to remove bait]

Cpt_Teemo

jaye63 wrote: »

necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Sheey wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Will punishments be worse if any of these people were repeat offenders?

As I feel whilst this issue was reversible the fact we often see suspensions only leads people to promote exploiting, cash out before the suspension, take a suspension and enjoy the rewards still.

As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.

No. Just No.

Repeat offenders should not be removed from the game. As long as it is game expirienced-related the punishments should stay ingame related and not account related.

Suspending someone from the game permanently is never to take in action just because someone abusing a bug in game. Permanently bans are reserved for Bots and system hacks ONLY.

Concerned you may be taking a 3 day? Doing much exploiting that makes you fear for a suspension? Exploiters should be perma banned. It's one thing to find an exploit. Things happen. But something this severe or game breaking, should be met with a goodbye note and the locks changed. PERIOD. I watched it ruin several other games. I wont play shooters any more because of all of the aim bots and hacks. If you suck, dont play. You ruin it for the rest of us.

They clearly hit a lot of innocents when they do it, and I hope you happen to be one of the first of those 'innocents' if they ever do the permas. So that you could eat your condescending tone. Besides bamco, these are the last devs I would ever trust dishing out permabans. They're very incompetent, and lazy, a dangerous combination when they allow so much collateral since their fanbois never give them any slack in the wallet over it. for now.

Innocents? Pretty easy to tell if some one hit an exploit by accident and had it happen 1 or 2 times vs some one who farmed the hell out of it. Since you obviously have never been a programmer/dev, GM or ran a server, you need to understand that my comments are based as some one who has done all 3. Bans dont hit the innocent. PERIOD. And anyone claiming that they are when the ban hammer hits it lying or has some one playing on their account which is also a no no. Wake up and smell the gimps who need to exploit to get ahead and ruin the game in the process.

Actually every MMO has wrongful bans that innocent people get caught up in, I for one got suspended twice in Swtor for considering to be a gold seller twice, first time they claimed it would never happen again yet it did 2 more times.

Also for WoW my friend got suspended for attempting to buy gold since he made a fortune in one night from the AH, yet they unbanned him once they found out what truly happened.

Inklings

jaye63 wrote: »

necronomniconb14_ESO wrote: »

jaye63 wrote: »

Sheey wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Will punishments be worse if any of these people were repeat offenders?

As I feel whilst this issue was reversible the fact we often see suspensions only leads people to promote exploiting, cash out before the suspension, take a suspension and enjoy the rewards still.

As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.

No. Just No.

Repeat offenders should not be removed from the game. As long as it is game expirienced-related the punishments should stay ingame related and not account related.

Suspending someone from the game permanently is never to take in action just because someone abusing a bug in game. Permanently bans are reserved for Bots and system hacks ONLY.

Concerned you may be taking a 3 day? Doing much exploiting that makes you fear for a suspension? Exploiters should be perma banned. It's one thing to find an exploit. Things happen. But something this severe or game breaking, should be met with a goodbye note and the locks changed. PERIOD. I watched it ruin several other games. I wont play shooters any more because of all of the aim bots and hacks. If you suck, dont play. You ruin it for the rest of us.

They clearly hit a lot of innocents when they do it, and I hope you happen to be one of the first of those 'innocents' if they ever do the permas. So that you could eat your condescending tone. Besides bamco, these are the last devs I would ever trust dishing out permabans. They're very incompetent, and lazy, a dangerous combination when they allow so much collateral since their fanbois never give them any slack in the wallet over it. for now.

Innocents? Pretty easy to tell if some one hit an exploit by accident and had it happen 1 or 2 times vs some one who farmed the hell out of it. Since you obviously have never been a programmer/dev, GM or ran a server, you need to understand that my comments are based as some one who has done all 3. Bans dont hit the innocent. PERIOD. And anyone claiming that they are when the ban hammer hits it lying or has some one playing on their account which is also a no no. Wake up and smell the gimps who need to exploit to get ahead and ruin the game in the process.

If bans didn't hit the innocents they would not be lifting them time and time again after one of these waves hit. How many times is this going to happen before people like you wake up and realize just how bad this company is at handling this part of the game. The white knighting when there is obvious faults time and time again after every ban / suspensions wave is NOT good for the game or it's players. This is a side of ZoS that needs an extreme make over, and shouldn't be praised in the least bit.

Spacemonkey

honestly this is the equivalent of if a quest wrongly gave you a collection trophy everytime you kill the boss....


so what? You arent going to have it more than once anyway

Skill points; can you (and id love someone to do the math and show proof) ACTUALLY benefit from having more skill points than the actual limit of obtainable skill points. You cannot. You have a maximum of 12 active skills you can slot on your bars and the totality of the passives (of which a lot won't affect anyone but you anyway, im looking at crafting resource glowing useless passives here....); that amount (without going through the actual list) must total around 200ish, which is well below the average player's amount of skill points. After TG total in game was 360, with DB, SoH and MW, we must be well around 400+ now.

Thus skill points being a big , 'who cares?'
-So you have exploiters; you can laugh at them because they are farming something a bit pointless (allthough i could see the interest when power leveling an alt, im assuming thats what happened in the worse cases)
-You'll have farmers/grinders that simply did NOT care because its just skill points, and wanted the boss drops etc..., so they kept farming it because whether they have 20 unused skill points lying around or 70, it does not change anything. (personnally, I wouldve been in this group had i'd been needing spriggans, which is why im frowning on this issue a lot)
-You'll have farmers/grinders that did not NOTICE (probably only very few but possible)
-You'll have all the rest of people that might have killed this boss/event when they had already done it in the past. Since zos did NOT give any specifics of how they carried out the ban, you cant assume they didnt an intelligent database query to look up those that had impacting amounts of skillpoints gained in the timeframe. It IS possible that the ban went with the skill point reset indiscriminantly in a single operation because they felt theyd need to reset the person that got the skill point ONCE when they werent supposed to and reset them to. (I for some reason do not find it hard to believe they would have done this)

In all cases surrounding this bug, everyone should have gotten a skillpoint reset. period. if they wont take the time to inquire if someone is actively attempting to exploit (have those skill points been used? what was the player's total before because if it was 350+ you can be darn sure the person didnt give a rat's behind about the skill points? etc...) they shouldnt be banning anyone.

there is no impact to this exploit.

out51d3r

@Spacemonkey

I agree. This exploit didn't harm any other players in any way. This wasn't a pvp exploit. It wasn't an economy exploit. It was even possible to do accidentally.

The proper way to handle something like this is to simply fix the bug and remove the extra skill points. Perhaps issue a warning to people who farmed large numbers of skill points off of it, escalating to a suspension only in extreme cases or individuals who have a history of cheating/exploiting.

The fact that they apparently accused anybody who gained a single extra point of cheating is absolutely atrocious. The fact that they apparently punished people who reported the bug is asinine. The fact that they apparently haven't issued any sort of apology to those they falsely accused of cheating is unnacceptable.

Danksta

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

LiquidPony wrote: »

Hempyre wrote: »

The first skill point -normal

The second skill point -hmmm interesting

The third skill point -exploiting

Any further explanation required?

Pretty clear in every game I've ever played using bugs and exploits is bannable.

Give your head a shake...

This assumes that players are aware of how Skill Points are granted in Group Dungeons and also puts the responsibility on players to cease normal gameplay because of a bug. I understand that ZOS can put whatever they want in the TOS and shift the burden of responsibility to the players.

But the world isn't black and white. Some "exploits" are more heinous than others. This one is pretty innocent and far to easy to accidentally encounter.

And thats why its only 3 days and not more (assuming they have no previous infractions)

It's still ridiculous. Just revert the skill points and, if necessary, issue a warning. No reason to get ban-happy over something that any random player who decided to kill a Public Dungeon boss twice would be guilty of "exploiting."

I just spent an hour camping a Public Dungeon event last weekend, helping a guildie farm some gear. I was browsing Reddit on my phone while intermittently throwing out Caltrops and Endless Hail. Not sure I would've even noticed I was obtaining multiple skill points until after the fact, and then it would have been a head scratcher ... "did I really have that many unused skill points? Huh. Don't remember. Oh well."

Sounds like you were botting.

Sounds like multitasking to me.

alexkdd99

Sheey wrote: »

Turelus wrote: »

Will punishments be worse if any of these people were repeat offenders?

As I feel whilst this issue was reversible the fact we often see suspensions only leads people to promote exploiting, cash out before the suspension, take a suspension and enjoy the rewards still.

As I have posted many times in other threads about exploiting I feel ZOS would do well to adopt a strike system (if not already) to make sure first time offended who may not know better learn, but repeat offenders are eventually removed from the game.

No. Just No.

Repeat offenders should not be removed from the game. As long as it is game expirienced-related the punishments should stay ingame related and not account related.

Suspending someone from the game permanently is never to take in action just because someone abusing a bug in game. Permanently bans are reserved for Bots and system hacks ONLY.

I disagree. If someone repeatedly is abusing bugs they should be permanently removed. This shouldn't happen after the first few times, although the punishment should get harsher with each time being caught.

If someone is caught exploiting 5 or more times they most definitely should be removed from the game. Someone who repeatedly breaks rules should only be allowed so many chances.

Montayva

lordrichter wrote: »

I have to wonder whether @Montayva ever heard back from them on this issue.

nope. Been sending in mails/appeals every day. Nothing XD rip me

Montayva

out51d3r wrote: »

@Spacemonkey

I agree. This exploit didn't harm any other players in any way. This wasn't a pvp exploit. It wasn't an economy exploit. It was even possible to do accidentally.

The proper way to handle something like this is to simply fix the bug and remove the extra skill points. Perhaps issue a warning to people who farmed large numbers of skill points off of it, escalating to a suspension only in extreme cases or individuals who have a history of cheating/exploiting.

The fact that they apparently accused anybody who gained a single extra point of cheating is absolutely atrocious. The fact that they apparently punished people who reported the bug is asinine. The fact that they apparently haven't issued any sort of apology to those they falsely accused of cheating is unnacceptable.

It doesnt help them either, the fact that Customer support is basically unreachable and tbh feels inaccessible. Almost a week of contacting them and I've yet to receive anything but the few automated mails I got while my ban was active.

out51d3r

Montayva wrote: »

It doesnt help them either, the fact that Customer support is basically unreachable and tbh feels inaccessible. Almost a week of contacting them and I've yet to receive anything but the few automated mails I got while my ban was active.

Yes, that's a pretty serious problem as well. TBH, they knew exactly when that ban wave was coming. They should have been prepared to deal with the extra customer support contacts they knew would be coming when they did it.

Megabear

3 days? That's not even a slap on the wrist. It's more like a wink.

Osteos

Fleshreaper wrote: »

Bouldercleave wrote: »

It sounds like a group boss in one of the public dungeons was bugged giving you a skill point every time you killed him. At least that is what I can decipher from the cryptic posts.

I think is would be easy to determine if a player got more than 1 skill point at a certain place.

I hope this is not the case because this would be IMO unfair. You add items to the game that REQUIRE you to grind for by killing public delve bosses over and over again and then when people actually grind for these items, they get caught up in an bug/exploit and get banned for it. SMH

Yeah but there are several bosses in the public dungeons you could kill. Picking the group event boss to kill over and over while bugged and pretending not to notice or care doesn't make you innocent. Everyone had options and instead chose to kill the bugged boss and reap the benefits and they got punished for it. My friend and I both made wardens and took them to every public dungeon, except for the 2 in vvardenfell, killed the group bosses for the skill point ONCE and moved on. Neither of us got a ban. I simply do not believe everyone protesting their innocence. Pay attention. Play fairly. Own up if you don't. 3 days is a slap on the wrist.

DarkAedin

Montayva wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

@Spacemonkey

I agree. This exploit didn't harm any other players in any way. This wasn't a pvp exploit. It wasn't an economy exploit. It was even possible to do accidentally.

The proper way to handle something like this is to simply fix the bug and remove the extra skill points. Perhaps issue a warning to people who farmed large numbers of skill points off of it, escalating to a suspension only in extreme cases or individuals who have a history of cheating/exploiting.

The fact that they apparently accused anybody who gained a single extra point of cheating is absolutely atrocious. The fact that they apparently punished people who reported the bug is asinine. The fact that they apparently haven't issued any sort of apology to those they falsely accused of cheating is unnacceptable.

It doesnt help them either, the fact that Customer support is basically unreachable and tbh feels inaccessible. Almost a week of contacting them and I've yet to receive anything but the few automated mails I got while my ban was active.

Same. They only sent me one survey tho, guess one was enough lol

firedrgn

People that reported got banned? I am more disappointed every day. It's a buff if you don't play the game and a nerff if you do. Lmao

out51d3r

Today I witnessed a Terms of Service violation. Normally I would report it. In fact, I was about halfway through doing so. Then I thought of this thread. As I said here, my future interactions with ZOS will be determined by their handling of this situation. I chose not to report the TOS violation. If they are going to punish players for reporting things, they can hire more staff to monitor the game instead of relying on the players to do it for them.

I haven't forgotten that ZOS unfairly punished many innocent players. That some of the players actually reported the bugs they were punished for "exploiting". That even the players whose punishment were lifted were never apologized to, despite the blatantly accusatory nature of the interactions ZOS had with these falsely accused players.

I hope the rest of you haven't forgotten what ZOS did to you and your friends either.

SilverWF

out51d3r wrote: »

Today I witnessed a Terms of Service violation. Normally I would report it. In fact, I was about halfway through doing so. Then I thought of this thread. As I said here, my future interactions with ZOS will be determined by their handling of this situation. I chose not to report the TOS violation. If they are going to punish players for reporting things, they can hire more staff to monitor the game instead of relying on the players to do it for them.

I haven't forgotten that ZOS unfairly punished many innocent players. That some of the players actually reported the bugs they were punished for "exploiting". That even the players whose punishment were lifted were never apologized to, despite the blatantly accusatory nature of the interactions ZOS had with these falsely accused players.

I hope the rest of you haven't forgotten what ZOS did to you and your friends either.

So, you do think, that reporting a bug after you have exploited it enough, must make you white and innocent? really?

Anunakis

out51d3r wrote: »

Today I witnessed a Terms of Service violation. Normally I would report it. In fact, I was about halfway through doing so. Then I thought of this thread. As I said here, my future interactions with ZOS will be determined by their handling of this situation. I chose not to report the TOS violation. If they are going to punish players for reporting things, they can hire more staff to monitor the game instead of relying on the players to do it for them.

I haven't forgotten that ZOS unfairly punished many innocent players. That some of the players actually reported the bugs they were punished for "exploiting". That even the players whose punishment were lifted were never apologized to, despite the blatantly accusatory nature of the interactions ZOS had with these falsely accused players.

I hope the rest of you haven't forgotten what ZOS did to you and your friends either.

maybe they do maybe not , doesn't matter if they will buy more crowns or eso +, for me only reason why do I play eso is my guildmates, otherwise i would drop eso just after thieves guild update ,

my other account was suspended just for helping my guildmates - i was perceived by zenimax as gold seller - because i crafted sets gave gold for mounts, tabards, bag upgrades etc , and the day when i was baned i just made 2 sets of armor master for guild tanks and killed 12 red gankers next to armor master entrance

i play eso since alpha , i stay even when megaserver was split and many of my friends was on the other side , i endured few month of killer bugs until january 2015 , zenimax doesnt care about players , they cant fix bugs - many of them appears after some 'fixes' , boters run free , exploiters laugh at 3 day bans ,

if the whole game would be so great as the lore and quest part it would be awesome but its not

out51d3r

SilverWF wrote: »

So, you do think, that reporting a bug after you have exploited it enough, must make you white and innocent? really?

To report a bug you've benefited from suggests either innocence or stupidity. In this case I lean towards innocence.

Skjoldur

NobleGuardian wrote: »

White wabbit wrote: »

SickDuck wrote: »

3 day is good since they did not gain any long term advantage. Unlike xp, ap, gold or mats grinding exploiters.

Sorry but I don't agree needs to be longer and Zos needs to start setting examples to warn off this type of play

warn off what type of play? the type of play that ZOS punishes players for finding flaws in their game so they can fix it? because its the players that are in the wrong for this being a bug right?

Since it was easily possible to get the skill point more once by accident, think of a (new) player who needs to do several rounds to kill all bosses and maybe kills the group event boss again because he was just there or any of the above mentioned examples, ZOS could as easily differentiated the players: Less than 5 skill points earned => just remove the extra points. 6-15 points => remove the points and 7 day ban, more than 15 => all skillpoints removed and 7 day ban... something like that would have been more appropriate.

vyndral13preub18_ESO

This is why I love Zos. Make a starter zone with an extra skill point? Not a big deal it is just one skill point. So little of a problem Zos won't even comment on it. Why would anyone care about one little skill point!

Someone accidently gets an extra skill point from a bug Zos put into the game? Ban them!!

lagrue

Stop introducing exploits??????

I get taking away the skillpoints - but banning people for something YOU put in the game has always irked me (and btw I don't exploit).

Take some responsibility and say "we screwed up." If you give people something in a game - whether you consider it exploitative or not - you're the one's who gave it to them.

3 days ain't that bad I guess, just sad that your only reaction is to ban people instead of admit that you're the one's truly at fault for providing the exploit in the first place.