Skill Point Exploit & Account Suspensions

SantieClaws

Rosveen wrote: »

An officer in my guild was wrongly suspended. She's been trying to appeal the ban for days, but all she's getting are automated responses. She is angry and disappointed at ZOS, and on the verge of quitting the game if her last mail is left without a proper answer again. It's not just the problem of this ban, but also being permanently marked as an exploiter.

This is no way to police your game, Zenimax.

And this is the same officer to which Khajiit has been referring.

Is there someone we could ask her directly to contact to look into this? Her pleas to customer services are going unheeded and she is most upset and frustrated by this.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

Rosveen

@ZOS_GinaBruno , a little help here? You're losing longtime players because of the brick wall that is your customer support.

Anunakis

i wish all exploiters permabans \o/, there are accidental exploiters lured by groups of exploiters and recuring exploiters playing just to exploit even with chanels on youtube how to exploit https://youtube.com/channel/UCfQQH9WTKrdJyzYwJRCqVhw

majulook

So really if you reported the bug you got a punishment?

burglar

Accidental suspensions are a great reason to keep initial punishment as suspensions rather than bans, as some people have suggested. Although, I don't know what really goes wrong to cause it... I would think that the people who were banned have some correlating data, like tons of skill points gained in a short period of time. Accidents do happen, though.

Elsonso

ProbablePaul wrote: »

Accidental suspensions are a great reason to keep initial punishment as suspensions rather than bans, as some people have suggested.

The problem is that we are hearing reports that people who were incorrectly suspended can be stuck with the "stigma" of being an exploiter on their 'permanent' record, when they were not exploiting and are unable to convince ZOS otherwise. Naturally, we don't know all the stories, and ZOS is never going to clear up the issue, so we never know whether we are being fed a line by the player or whether ZOS is being unreasonable.

KingMagaw

3 days suspension lol

ewhite106b16_ESO

SantieClaws wrote: »

Regrettably my guild has now lost one of it's senior members over this

A good person who was most upset to be accused of being intentionally dishonest and now no longer feels happy or comfortable being in Tamriel. Someone who had been a fellow traveller since 2015.

Exactly, this post gets to the core of the problem and I think the feelings of most of the players who had no idea why we were suspended. The 3 day suspension wasn't the main issue, it's accusations of dishonest play and the permanent black mark on your account. The accusation seems completely baseless when all you hear from ZOS in the suspension e-mail is "This account has violated the Code of Conduct regarding the exploitation of skill point acquisition" then you have to go digging through forum posts to TRY and figure out WTF it is they think you did.

Accusing players of wrongdoing without specifying specific reasons is not how a company goes about keeping a paying customer. Neither are canned responses to suspension appeals that again don't actually give the customer any real idea what bug they exploited. This whole thread could have been avoided if ZOS was clear in the initial e-mail eg "Your account h as been suspended 3 days for gaining more then 4 skill points from killing a single boss in x area", and set their threshold for suspending accounts rather then warning to a more reasonable level.

I"m glad the suspension on my account was reviewed/lifted, but how the entire situation was treated by ZOS still leaves me feeling rather frustrated and annoyed at the whole situation. I could deal with the suspension if I'd gotten an e-mail saying "you got more then 5 skill points killing a boss wherever", I know why I'm being suspended and the threshold seems reasonable so then it's a situation of "derp how did I miss that". IMO that is how the situation should have been handled in the first place if ZOS was going to go the suspension route.

lordrichter wrote: »

ZOS has defined that disciplinary actions are between the company and the individual. As such, it is officially none of our business. This is why they don't comment. I would like them to remove fraudulent claims, however.

It is our business when apparently ZOS is suspending people who report bugs for "exploiting" them when all they did was confirm the bug and report it. Secrecy is only harming ZOS here and making the rumor mill louder. Again, the information that would help clear this up from ZOS isn't so much specific names but the criteria they used for suspensions and the scope of the bug.

Also for all those saying "well you should be far more vigilant in your play so you notice that extra skill point/loot/whatever immediately"! The only time I'm going to exercise that degree of vigilance playing a game is if I"m a QA tester, which I am not where ESO is concerned. ESO encourages repetitive farming of bosses, this is not a time where players are alert and attentive even compared to other games. Stop trying to blame players for stuff ZOS should have found in the first place. Focus on exploits should be on fixing the bugs and removing the gains from accounts, save suspensions and bans for the hackers or really blatant exploiters (mainly large scale dupers).

Elsonso

ewhite106b16_ESO wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

ZOS has defined that disciplinary actions are between the company and the individual. As such, it is officially none of our business. This is why they don't comment. I would like them to remove fraudulent claims, however.

It is our business when apparently ZOS is suspending people who report bugs for "exploiting" them when all they did was confirm the bug and report it. Secrecy is only harming ZOS here and making the rumor mill louder. Again, the information that would help clear this up from ZOS isn't so much specific names but the criteria they used for suspensions and the scope of the bug.

Well, that highlights another problem that has been going on for a few years. Apparently, the person being suspended or banned is also not allowed to know why, except in the most general terms. I guess it is none of their business, either.

out51d3r

lordrichter wrote: »

out51d3r wrote: »

That would be nice for ZOS, if they could decide what is and isn't my business.

They pretty much can, in this case.

No, actually, they can't. ZOS's treatment of their customers is my business, as I am one of their customers. They can choose to ignore this issue if they like, but that doesn't make it not my business. I find the evidence presented compelling. In the absence of contradictory evidence, I will assume the claims(ZOS suspended people who reported this bug, ZOS suspended people who accidentally benefited from this bug, ZOS suspended people who gained but a single extra skill point) are accurate. And I will base my future interactions with ZOS on that.

eso_lags

@Montayva i have had both good and bad experiences when dealing with customer support, but ive heard horror stories from players, the forums, and youtube. As others have said we test the game for free for zenimax, i just feel like they really need to be more involved with stuff like "exploits", glitches, and the banning/appeals of bans.

SteveCampsOut

SantieClaws wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

An officer in my guild was wrongly suspended. She's been trying to appeal the ban for days, but all she's getting are automated responses. She is angry and disappointed at ZOS, and on the verge of quitting the game if her last mail is left without a proper answer again. It's not just the problem of this ban, but also being permanently marked as an exploiter.

This is no way to police your game, Zenimax.

And this is the same officer to which Khajiit has been referring.

Is there someone we could ask her directly to contact to look into this? Her pleas to customer services are going unheeded and she is most upset and frustrated by this.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

It's the same Officer in my guild @SantieClaws. The fact that she's officer material for so many of us just shows me how stupid this has become.

And to rub salt in the wounds, today ZOS was too busy opening the new Morrowind CE Box on Facebook Lilve to show off the toys rather than respond to the private messages and this thread to deal with this issue. Seriously? This company needs some Adults to teach Adulting!

Yarlenzey

Gruffysb16_ESO wrote: »

As a result I'm currently filing a complaint with the European Commission's Online Dispute department about this and other game problems that have been plaguing players for the last 3 months.

Money and mouth; co-located.

In Australia, consumer legislation is built around the concept of 'fit for purpose'.

Drawing a very long bow:

• This product is a game.
• The concept of a game is to have fun.
• The consistent changes made AFTER purchase, remove most of the fun.

ergo; this game is no longer "fit" for the intended "purpose" that I bought it for.

As for the Terms Of Service, they exist as a guide until challenged by legislation.
I specifically chose outright licence purchase over a leased product, as the legal interpretation of the ToS will be affected by that.

Good morning; and welcome to 6 June 2017, where it also Winter.

Yarlenzey

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Yarlenzey wrote: »

If it can be used in-game, then it isn't cheating.

If an error is AVAILABLE in game - then hire more people to create a higher quality product in the first place
Revise your procedures before releasing flawed software and don't penalise players who used the product AS IT WAS DELIVERED.

It would be more appropriate to suspend your staff without pay for three day.
How is this not obvious to you? Why is this the player's fault?

Read the ToS

No. I don't take direction from you.
If you have a specific point to debate about my response; then debate it

richo262

Since the exploit has been patched, are there any details on what the exploit was? I had difficulty logging in today with strange error messages I'd never seen before, then finally got in.

I don't think I did anything but given how trigger happy Zenimax is for an exploit they didn't describe I want to know what it was. As it is skill point related and I don't have any more than I expect to be in the clear.

MyKillv2.0

Lol, 3 day suspension?

The cheat must be used by a guild that plays a lot with the devs.

Gruffysb16_ESO

Just an update from my position. After my complaint to ZOS I was unbanned. However this has not stopped me from cancelling my pre-order of Morrowind and my subscription. I also haven't felt the desire to login and play the game since.

Montayva

I've lost count on the appeals I've made and attempts to contact customer support. I doubt they ever will get back to me now. I too have greatly lost my desire to play, which is a huge deal for me, considering my previous addiction and dedication to the game.

Elsonso

Gruffysb16_ESO wrote: »

Just an update from my position. After my complaint to ZOS I was unbanned. However this has not stopped me from cancelling my pre-order of Morrowind and my subscription. I also haven't felt the desire to login and play the game since.

Montayva wrote: »

I've lost count on the appeals I've made and attempts to contact customer support. I doubt they ever will get back to me now. I too have greatly lost my desire to play, which is a huge deal for me, considering my previous addiction and dedication to the game.

Sorry to hear this. Good that Gruffy got cleared of wrongdoing, though.

I can't say I would feel any different if it had happened to me, on both counts.

Vercingetorix

I hardly see the issue in having more skill points - after all, re-specialization exists in the game. If they were adding attribute points, I could see a potential problem, but that's not the case.

If one wants all available passives, there are already enough skill points available to warrant that. In other words, these exploiters aren't gaining any advantage in combat. (What's the point in having all stamina abilities unlocked/morphed on a magicka character and vice-versa?)

Feanor

ZOS at its finest. Either they do nothing or completely overdo it. Getting suspended for skill points when people have traded millions of AP, got their high AvA ranks, laundered the AP into gold and got away with it is just showing how ridiculous ZOS is with these things.

Yolokin_Swagonborn

Warraxx wrote: »

3-days, that'll teach'em... *sarcasm*

LOL. It sure taught all the people cheating in PvP. Now that battlegrounds are back I see a lot of familiar names with new accounts and more special characters.

Rhoric

Oh no people got punished for exploiting but claim they did nothing wrong. Where have I heard that before. Oh yeah in every MMO out there.

Prof_Bawbag

It wasn't my fault, honestly. They made me do it, erm, eh ... I mean, I was only smelling the flowers and helping some guy learn the mechanics and a host of other innocent stuff. Oh i remember now, my account was hacked by my little bro and his friends.

MusekininKanchou

Vercingetorix wrote: »

I hardly see the issue in having more skill points - after all, re-specialization exists in the game. If they were adding attribute points, I could see a potential problem, but that's not the case.

If one wants all available passives, there are already enough skill points available to warrant that. In other words, these exploiters aren't gaining any advantage in combat. (What's the point in having all stamina abilities unlocked/morphed on a magicka character and vice-versa?)

Yep, I rather they spent more time dealing with pvp players using programmable keyboards and animation canceling. I've seen less of it lately but last weekend I saw an AD dropping multiple Vets in about 2 seconds. Dropped me with a 5 skill combo that took less than 2 seconds. Grats buddy! Your keyboard is a killer but you're still in yo mamma's basement!

sarbonn

The part about this that concerns me is that motivation is being assumed by ZOS where it may not have been intended at all. Now, disclaimer aside, I knew nothing of this and was not involved in any way, but I do know that I have had lots of fun in areas where a boss spawns and sometimes will participate in fighting that boss over and over. It's not for the rewards but because it's often just so much fun to kill a boss with a large group of people (kind of like fighting golems in The Secret World).

Fortunately, any of the ones I've ever done have never been skill point rewards (like this one appears to have been), but it would really bother me if I ended up being punished in the future just because I found a place to have fun and didn't realize it was also being treated by others as an exploit. I think about Dolmens for example, because I can spend all day just fighting Dolmens because I find them really fun. If they were rewarding people by accident, I'd probably be banned for having fun because others would have taken advantage of a bad mechanic accidentally built into the game.

Part of the problem for me is that this game is sometimes very difficult about giving me opportunities to work with other players, which is why I love Dolmens and boss encounters. Way too much of this game is built around solo play, and it's much more fun to work with other players (without having to resort to pvp where you end up having to kill other players instead of work with them). So whenever I see a situation that frowns on this behavior because of faulty mechanics (and then punishing players), it leaves a really bad taste for me.

Prof_Bawbag

sarbonn wrote: »

The part about this that concerns me is that motivation is being assumed by ZOS where it may not have been intended at all. Now, disclaimer aside, I knew nothing of this and was not involved in any way, but I do know that I have had lots of fun in areas where a boss spawns and sometimes will participate in fighting that boss over and over. It's not for the rewards but because it's often just so much fun to kill a boss with a large group of people (kind of like fighting golems in The Secret World).

Fortunately, any of the ones I've ever done have never been skill point rewards (like this one appears to have been), but it would really bother me if I ended up being punished in the future just because I found a place to have fun and didn't realize it was also being treated by others as an exploit. I think about Dolmens for example, because I can spend all day just fighting Dolmens because I find them really fun. If they were rewarding people by accident, I'd probably be banned for having fun because others would have taken advantage of a bad mechanic accidentally built into the game.

Part of the problem for me is that this game is sometimes very difficult about giving me opportunities to work with other players, which is why I love Dolmens and boss encounters. Way too much of this game is built around solo play, and it's much more fun to work with other players (without having to resort to pvp where you end up having to kill other players instead of work with them). So whenever I see a situation that frowns on this behavior because of faulty mechanics (and then punishing players), it leaves a really bad taste for me.

I think it goes beyond an accident if say someone had obtained well over 100 or so skill points. I think it would be unfair banning those who may have only received around 5 because that could simply be a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time. I also suspect there will be a helluva lot more people than the 300 mentioned above that will have at least obtained extra skill points by just doing innocent stuff. But when the same people are stood there on a daily basis getting 100's of points, it's safe to assume they know. They then come on here and play dumb. Aye righty-*** then.

mb10

ooooooooooooooo 3 whole days??

Rosveen

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

SantieClaws wrote: »

Rosveen wrote: »

An officer in my guild was wrongly suspended. She's been trying to appeal the ban for days, but all she's getting are automated responses. She is angry and disappointed at ZOS, and on the verge of quitting the game if her last mail is left without a proper answer again. It's not just the problem of this ban, but also being permanently marked as an exploiter.

This is no way to police your game, Zenimax.

And this is the same officer to which Khajiit has been referring.

Is there someone we could ask her directly to contact to look into this? Her pleas to customer services are going unheeded and she is most upset and frustrated by this.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

It's the same Officer in my guild @SantieClaws. The fact that she's officer material for so many of us just shows me how stupid this has become.

Technically just for two of us, since Santie and I are in the same guild. :P

Feanor

To me it's about proportionality. ZOS just doesn't have any clear measure about severity. Banker exploit and AP roleplaying events come to mind. And a lot of other stuff that wasn't even punished at all.