Skill Point Exploit & Account Suspensions

ManwithBeard9

smacx250 wrote: »

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

smackysmacks wrote: »

This is literal crazy land. It's not like some technical exploit that some hacker crew is taking advantage of to gold farm or win in pvp or something.

It's killing a dungeon boss in a public dungeon more than once.

Let that sink in.

The fact that is deemed an EXPLOIT rather than a bug that should have just got fixed by an emergency patch is what the issue here. I can only imagine how the banned players must feel about it.

Seriously. Whoever is in charge of this clown show needs to get the boot. I really hope the gaming media pick this up and run with it because this is heinously wrong for so may reasons.

It is an exploit the same way the survey writ was an exploit. It was an unintended bug that can be easily avoided and only when repeated becomes an exploit.

Do you actually know what the survey map bug was? Because if you do, you are being very disingenuous with this statement. In case you don't know, it required that you approach the survey, and when it appeared, open up your banking assistant and deposit the map in the bank. Then after looting the survey, you leave the area, take the survey map out of the bank, and go back to the survey site. Repeat, repeat, repeat. There is absolutely no way that could be otherwise be considered "normal gameplay".

I know how the exploit worked. The fact the writ could be used over and over is a "bug" that was exploitable, just like the skill point from the group boss. Thats what my response to Smacky is about. every exploit is a bug. Something that is no intended. When a player continually uses said bug to their advantage, its an exploit. Gap closing in Cyrodil is normal gameplay, but when you couple that with bypassing the walls of keeps, it becomes an exploit. Using a sorc to get out of the normal boundaries of the game map is a bug, it becomes an exploit when a player bypasses intended gameplay mechanics to loot a chest otherwise inaccessible. The Blackboot Mine "rp" session was a bug until players decided to bypass normal gameplay mechanics and exploit the incorrect AP gain.

Roovin

I feel I want to try and look at this through ZOS' eyes to try and see where they are coming from.

1) This was an exploit, no question about it. That can't be defended. A lot of people abused it and got banned 3 days.
2) Innocent people DID get caught up in this, that also isn't up for debate.

But, and I'm trying to look at this through ZOS' eyes so this isn't 100% how I look at it, how does ZOS know who intentionally exploited and who didn't? Would it be fair to ban everyone for 3 days if they got more than 1 skill point out of this?

And I *hate* to point this out since it has affected me in another MMO (SWTOR), but it is only 3 days. Ugh, I typing that because 3 days is a lot of playing time.

I guess I'm just trying to think of how to properly punish the people who tried and who were innocent because just by looking at the raw data that ZOS gets, it would be next to impossible to do that.

Kalebron

Warraxx wrote: »

3-days, that'll teach'em... *sarcasm*

If they banned people for good then there would be nobody to play eso.

Elsonso

out51d3r wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

Unless a moderator steps in and reveals it for what it is, no one is going to know anything different. Hopefully, the moderators are willing to do that. Perhaps we should be using the Report feature when someone posts "proof" and ask them to check on it. I dunno. Really, it isn't any of our business whether it is true or not.

As a legitimate user of this service, it is very much my business whether legitimate users are being punished, despite following the TOS and doing exactly what ZOS asked them to do.

The idea that the veracity of evidence can only be decided by the moderators is extremely dangerous, and anti-consumer. You don't allow companies to investigate themselves if you want to get consistently fair and true results.

ZOS has defined that disciplinary actions are between the company and the individual. As such, it is officially none of our business. This is why they don't comment. I would like them to remove fraudulent claims, however.

White wabbit

Kalebron wrote: »

Warraxx wrote: »

3-days, that'll teach'em... *sarcasm*

If they banned people for good then there would be nobody to play eso.

Why not everyone on here feels the need to cheat or exploit , so there would be people still here to play

Bouldercleave

Kalebron wrote: »

Warraxx wrote: »

3-days, that'll teach'em... *sarcasm*

If they banned people for good then there would be nobody to play eso.

Interesting theory, but I don't cheat so I would still be here.

SteveCampsOut

Lord_Hev wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

So from what I've heard it wasn't just a 3 day ban. These accounts are now on a list of known "Exploiters" and have been told if it happens again their accounts will be locked. This is beyond the pale for someone who fell afoul of this unintentionally!

Source please?

I'm sorry? And you are? I am not the person who received the email or the ban. The source would be that particular person's email. I'm just relating what was told to me. I am not going to name names and I couldn't post the email even if I wanted to as I don't have a copy and posting private emails is against the TOS. So pardon me if I don't gratify your need for documentation. Believe it or don't. It's no skin off my back.

Did someone *** in your coffee?

Yeah! ZOS did when they treated my Assistant Guild Leader like crap with this ban and mark on her account as an "Exploiter" when she's not done anything wrong. She is very valued by our guild and it's upsetting that she's probably leaving over this event. So, pardon me if I don't treat your request for "Sources" with the respect you seem to think you deserve.

out51d3r wrote: »

@SteveCampsOut

@Lord_Hev isn't trying to be a jerk. He's been in here arguing against this suspension wave for a while. And he probably finds your claim plausible. A request for proof isn't always an attack.

In this thread, we have somebody that posted proof that they reported this bug, but got suspended for it anyways. People actually providing proof of their claims is unfortunately rare, considering how easy it is to do in a situation like this. I'd like to see more of it. I find your claim plausible, and would love to see evidence of it, if it exists.

The evidence isn't mine to give. I flat out told you in my first post that "I heard" which makes what I said "Hearsay" and I'm well aware of the dubiousness of hearsay but that's ALL I have to give. If anyone else who appealed got the same answer that was reported to me about the "Known Exploiter" list they're free to chime in with evidence as is the person I heard it from.Til then let me just say this whole mess stinks!

Bouldercleave

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

So from what I've heard it wasn't just a 3 day ban. These accounts are now on a list of known "Exploiters" and have been told if it happens again their accounts will be locked. This is beyond the pale for someone who fell afoul of this unintentionally!

Source please?

I'm sorry? And you are? I am not the person who received the email or the ban. The source would be that particular person's email. I'm just relating what was told to me. I am not going to name names and I couldn't post the email even if I wanted to as I don't have a copy and posting private emails is against the TOS. So pardon me if I don't gratify your need for documentation. Believe it or don't. It's no skin off my back.

Did someone *** in your coffee?

Yeah! ZOS did when they treated my Assistant Guild Leader like crap with this ban and mark on her account as an "Exploiter" when she's not done anything wrong. She is very valued by our guild and it's upsetting that she's probably leaving over this event. So, pardon me if I don't treat your request for "Sources" with the respect you seem to think you deserve.

out51d3r wrote: »

@SteveCampsOut

@Lord_Hev isn't trying to be a jerk. He's been in here arguing against this suspension wave for a while. And he probably finds your claim plausible. A request for proof isn't always an attack.

In this thread, we have somebody that posted proof that they reported this bug, but got suspended for it anyways. People actually providing proof of their claims is unfortunately rare, considering how easy it is to do in a situation like this. I'd like to see more of it. I find your claim plausible, and would love to see evidence of it, if it exists.

The evidence isn't mine to give. I flat out told you in my first post that "I heard" which makes what I said "Hearsay" and I'm well aware of the dubiousness of hearsay but that's ALL I have to give. If anyone else who appealed got the same answer that was reported to me about the "Known Exploiter" list they're free to chime in with evidence as is the person I heard it from.Til then let me just say this whole mess stinks!

I'm sure that she can appeal the mark on her account if indeed she did nothing wrong. They have to be able verify those that exploit vs those that found a bug.

SteveCampsOut

out51d3r wrote: »

@SteveCampsOut

@Lord_Hev isn't trying to be a jerk. He's been in here arguing against this suspension wave for a while. And he probably finds your claim plausible. A request for proof isn't always an attack.

In this thread, we have somebody that posted proof that they reported this bug, but got suspended for it anyways. People actually providing proof of their claims is unfortunately rare, considering how easy it is to do in a situation like this. I'd like to see more of it. I find your claim plausible, and would love to see evidence of it, if it exists.

Bouldercleave wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

Lord_Hev wrote: »

SteveCampsOut wrote: »

So from what I've heard it wasn't just a 3 day ban. These accounts are now on a list of known "Exploiters" and have been told if it happens again their accounts will be locked. This is beyond the pale for someone who fell afoul of this unintentionally!

Source please?

I'm sorry? And you are? I am not the person who received the email or the ban. The source would be that particular person's email. I'm just relating what was told to me. I am not going to name names and I couldn't post the email even if I wanted to as I don't have a copy and posting private emails is against the TOS. So pardon me if I don't gratify your need for documentation. Believe it or don't. It's no skin off my back.

Did someone *** in your coffee?

Yeah! ZOS did when they treated my Assistant Guild Leader like crap with this ban and mark on her account as an "Exploiter" when she's not done anything wrong. She is very valued by our guild and it's upsetting that she's probably leaving over this event. So, pardon me if I don't treat your request for "Sources" with the respect you seem to think you deserve.

out51d3r wrote: »

@SteveCampsOut

@Lord_Hev isn't trying to be a jerk. He's been in here arguing against this suspension wave for a while. And he probably finds your claim plausible. A request for proof isn't always an attack.

In this thread, we have somebody that posted proof that they reported this bug, but got suspended for it anyways. People actually providing proof of their claims is unfortunately rare, considering how easy it is to do in a situation like this. I'd like to see more of it. I find your claim plausible, and would love to see evidence of it, if it exists.

The evidence isn't mine to give. I flat out told you in my first post that "I heard" which makes what I said "Hearsay" and I'm well aware of the dubiousness of hearsay but that's ALL I have to give. If anyone else who appealed got the same answer that was reported to me about the "Known Exploiter" list they're free to chime in with evidence as is the person I heard it from.Til then let me just say this whole mess stinks!

I'm sure that she can appeal the mark on her account if indeed she did nothing wrong. They have to be able verify those that exploit vs those that found a bug.

From the way that it was told to me, it was her appeal of the ban that elicited the hateful remark about her now being on a list of known exploiters. I didn't see the email. I can only tell from what she said to me that the tone of the response from ZOS was very harsh and callus! (SP?) I personally would have chased that rabbit right up the ladder to management, but some people have no desire to deal with being treated like this the same way I would deal with it.

SilentRaven1972

MissBizz wrote: »

Here's a thought.

Whether true or not, I don't know, but people are claiming they had no clue about this and are now on suspension.

We know Zos knew, heck there was a thread on the forums - but it didn't say what dungeon(s).

What IF... when Zos knew, they put a popup in game stating "There is a known exploit pertaining the X and Y dungeons bosses. Please do not defeat these bosses more than once until a fix has been put in place"

That way, anyone who does it after that, is damn sure aware of it.

To be honest, it might stop some from exploiting it... since they know Zos knows.

Better yet, why not incorporate the code used for "limited time" areas, like the cave from the Halloween event. With the code in place, they could set the timer for, oh, 50 years? But if a problem/exploit turns up, they can temporarily change the numbers and totally lock the dungeon/delve, until they can fix the issue then reset it back to normal. That would prevent even accidental exploitation.

Juli'St

If ZOS was sure of what he did (a big mistake), it would be for @ZOS_GinaBruno here defending the ZOS action.

ZOS erred in randomly 'distributing' suspensions, so silence in the community.

ManwithBeard9

Juli'St wrote: »

If ZOS was sure of what he did (a big mistake), it would be for @ZOS_GinaBruno here defending the ZOS action.

ZOS erred in randomly 'distributing' suspensions, so silence in the community.

Nothing was done randomly. They set up an algorithm to check points earned for the certain group boss. Any accounts that only had the skill point flag once passed. Any accounts that had the skill point flag multiple times, were suspended.

Its absolutely plausible that people had been doing a loot/grind route on the bosses and did not realize at first what was happening. Some reported the issue and moved on, others continued on ignorant or otherwise of the extra skill points they were accumulating.

Users get caught up in suspension/ban waves all the time. If you feel you were incorrectly actioned, file a report using the proper channels and be rational.

Juli'St

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Juli'St wrote: »

If ZOS was sure of what he did (a big mistake), it would be for @ZOS_GinaBruno here defending the ZOS action.

ZOS erred in randomly 'distributing' suspensions, so silence in the community.

Nothing was done randomly. They set up an algorithm to check points earned for the certain group boss. Any accounts that only had the skill point flag once passed. Any accounts that had the skill point flag multiple times, were suspended.

Its absolutely plausible that people had been doing a loot/grind route on the bosses and did not realize at first what was happening. Some reported the issue and moved on, others continued on ignorant or otherwise of the extra skill points they were accumulating.

Users get caught up in suspension/ban waves all the time. If you feel you were incorrectly actioned, file a report using the proper channels and be rational.

U can be right.

out51d3r

lordrichter wrote: »

ZOS has defined that disciplinary actions are between the company and the individual. As such, it is officially none of our business. This is why they don't comment.

That would be nice for ZOS, if they could decide what is and isn't my business.

DaveMoeDee

3 Days is fine for this. This exploit is easily reversible. It had no impact on anyone's enjoyment. It isn't like people gained an advantage since pretty much everyone at end game has enough skill points to get every passive that they could possibly need or want.

DaveMoeDee

ManwithBeard9 wrote: »

Juli'St wrote: »

If ZOS was sure of what he did (a big mistake), it would be for @ZOS_GinaBruno here defending the ZOS action.

ZOS erred in randomly 'distributing' suspensions, so silence in the community.

Nothing was done randomly. They set up an algorithm to check points earned for the certain group boss. Any accounts that only had the skill point flag once passed. Any accounts that had the skill point flag multiple times, were suspended.

Its absolutely plausible that people had been doing a loot/grind route on the bosses and did not realize at first what was happening. Some reported the issue and moved on, others continued on ignorant or otherwise of the extra skill points they were accumulating.

Users get caught up in suspension/ban waves all the time. If you feel you were incorrectly actioned, file a report using the proper channels and be rational.

The skill point was for a group boss? It is completely reasonable that some killed the boss multiple times. Perhaps they has a threshold for a certain number of kills. Two is too low.

Montayva

A lot of people are giving out the advice to "Appeal your ban through proper channels and let ZOS handle it rather than go public with your crying"

Well, since the moment this happened I have been doing just that. I have exhausted every avenue to get in contact with Customer Support or ZOS employees, the only contact I have received in return is the automated responses which don't acknowledge anything in my emails/appeals. I understand that they are a busy company. But why then did so many individuals have there bans revoked within hours, regardless if they made an appeal or not, and regardless of how many skill points they gained?

The system for dealing with these issues is very flawed and unfair.

altemriel

Montayva wrote: »

altemriel wrote: »

only 3 days!!!????? I would ban them for at least a month so that they know what they "should do" next time when they find out about an exploitable bug!!§


Why only so few days ZOS???

But a few that discovered it and DID report it also got banned, despite only gaining a couple sps and leaving the area immediately after reporting and realizing what was going on. Anyone who gained more than one skill point from that Boss, whether intentionally farmed or accidental, has been banned.

So next time i discover a bug or exploit "should" i just keep my mouth shut and get banned? Or report it and get banned?

Well first of all kudos to ZOS to finally take a hard approach to exploiters. Finally after few day reporting it, people get banned and not left to do it few more weeks after.
I admit that more than one skillpoint could have happened accidentally. But still, it is better than leaving it without an action.

Maybe I would do it like that, that people who gained 2 skillpoints there would get them both reseted and receive a mail with warning about cases like that. And people who gained more than 2 a 1 week ban and people who got more than 5 there a 1 month ban.



ZOS made it simplier: everyone banned. Still better than nobody.

SantieClaws

It isn't just the banning that hurts those who did not intentionally exploit.

It is a permanent bad mark on the record yes which could result in a future forever ban. Not to mention for those who have ESO Plus it's actually the loss of something they have paid for.

This is what they call using a sledgehammer to crack a nut yes - on this occasion. The end is result is a lot of damage and not much nut remaining.

Yours with paws
Santie Claws

eso_lags

This is another typical debacle. Its sad, really. Im curious to know why zos does not have people watching the forums, in the game, playing and finding stuff out. Stuff like this spreads like wild fire and its insane to me how zos never knows about it til its been going on for a good amount of time, and then they hand out bans to make it look like they're keeping the game safe. I think you guys just need to be more involved, or get people who can be, bottom line. I know there are tons of players who always report stuff like this. After that happens and zos knows somethings going on, they need to put a message up ASAP on the login screen so people know. Its so simple..

On another note if even 10% of the people on this post are telling the truth about not knowing, or doing nothing wrong ( and there are a lot of people saying that), then its still really messed up that they were blanket banned. Hopefully they just banned the TOP offenders. But that would mean most people on this post are lying about their grievances, and i just cant see that.

One question zos, what hurts the game more? People doing some stupid glitch and getting skill points saving them a lot of time ( and yes 100% scumbag stuff and certainly wrong), or throwing down mass bans when you have a ton of new players coming into the game and veteran players on the brink of an exit? Its defiantly a tough call, not gonna lie. I know zos wants to save face and look like they're keeping the game safe, i just dont think its worth it if multiple people get banned who were just playing the game and spent an hour or so in a dungeon.. Again i just hope im wrong and all these people on here who got banned are lying but i just dont see that being the case..

Lastly, if they actually have a decent appeals process for this then its not nearly as bad, but again im not so sure about that. But i hope they do for the sake of anyone with this issue.

Montayva

@altemriel but then they went and auto-unbanned MOST of those people, people who didnt even appeal to have the ban lifted because they knew they were intentionally exploiting it and got caught out.

@itzTJ after trying for 4 days to get in contact with them regarding this matter, I can vouch for the fact that the current appeal process is down the shitter. Customer service too, for that matter.

JimT722

This bug was released with Morrowind? If so I'm going to assume it won't hit console so that's a relief. Killing a certain boss more than once sounds like an easy mistake to make. This whole thing seems scary and the handling of it doesn't seem to reflect positively on ZOS. It seems anyone who got even 2 skill points got banned. many innocent people could have triggered this and even if they recognized the bug, they were already too late to avoid action.

Hopefully ZOS will do better in the future.

AdicusDio

FWIW, in defense of people "not noticing" skill points, (I never went wherever his bug was, so never encountered it) I rarely pay attention to pop ups other than guild store sales which I get chimes and a log update via add-on. Unless I'm hunting skyshards for an intentional point, or fiddling with skills, I can go days w/o even noticing a couple skill points were added, especially when doing boring quest grinds or killing another boring boss. As others already mentioned, if farming a random boss for the slim BS chance it'll drop exactly what I'm looking for, that's the ONLY thing I'm looking at in the inventory. Probably doesn't help having a 55" monitor where the field of vision might not even see a pop up.

As far as "self-policing" goes, that's utter BS. If it's in the god damned game because devs were too damned lazy to properly vet everything, expecting "us" to find your bugs for "free" so you can "patch" it later; that's BS to auto-ban someone, regardless of their intentions! To be honest, how are we supposed to "know" what's intentionally added or not, especially newer players?

Your fan base is shrinking with a game getting older, with only incremental DLC. Do you seriously think it's a good idea to shoot the guy trying to save a cop that's down?

Majeure

Aurelle1 wrote: »

And...of course the rest of it got truncated.....


But the message is, do you seriously think anyone has actually read this all the way through?

Of course, and most if it is by and large agreeable enough, except the part about having to sacrifice one's first born baby to the Daedric Princes, that I don't agree with, yet I hit Agree anyway... just don't tell 'em I said that, I could get in a lot of trouble.

AdicusDio

And to the apologists defending this nonsense, you'd be the first ones screaming about being banned if you encountered it....

Glamdring

Ppl getting multiple skillpoints from one boss and think they are gonna get away with it? Seriously?!?!

DarkAedin

Glamdring wrote: »

Ppl getting multiple skillpoints from one boss and think they are gonna get away with it? Seriously?!?!

Someone didnt read through the thread.

Elsonso

out51d3r wrote: »

lordrichter wrote: »

ZOS has defined that disciplinary actions are between the company and the individual. As such, it is officially none of our business. This is why they don't comment.

That would be nice for ZOS, if they could decide what is and isn't my business.

They pretty much can, in this case.

Bottom line is that isn't any of our business what disciplinary things happen to individual players, in this situation. No matter what we want. Until they decide otherwise, we will always hear just one side of the story.

Montayva wrote: »

@altemriel but then they went and auto-unbanned MOST of those people, people who didnt even appeal to have the ban lifted because they knew they were intentionally exploiting it and got caught out.

@itzTJ after trying for 4 days to get in contact with them regarding this matter, I can vouch for the fact that the current appeal process is down the shitter. Customer service too, for that matter.

I doubt that the people who look into these things are staffed around the clock. They leave on Friday, like everyone else, and they don't come back until Monday. I would imagine that they got swamped around Thursday. Does not make sense, given the term of the suspension, but hopefully they can at least look at your case today and get back to you.

Rosveen

An officer in my guild was wrongly suspended. She's been trying to appeal the ban for days, but all she's getting are automated responses. She is disappointed and angry at ZOS, and on the verge of quitting the game if her last mail is left without a proper answer again. It's not just the problem of this ban, but also being permanently marked as an exploiter.

This is no way to police your game, Zenimax.

Kildayen

Get rekt, cheaters!