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87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?
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Anti_Virus✭✭✭✭✭
✭leepalmer95 wrote: »Anti_Virus wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Lord_Dexter wrote: »Most of utility skills consume magicka if they start consuming stamina that you will again complain of sustain so its better that it consumes magicka.
You should better comparing DPS skills
Agreed. I went into specifics in a later post in which I suggested considering these skills (mostly damage) for stamina morphs:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritural
- Cleansing Ritual
I'm not saying that these are the only skills that should also receive a stamina morph, nor am I saying that all of these should. However, I think strong arguments can be made that all of the skills that I listed should also have a stamina morph.
Do you know how many stamina races out there comparing magicka?
High elf
Dark elf
Breton
Argonian
Vs the Rest
Redguard and Imperial are the only great stamina race
So 4 vs 2
Well no...
Woodelf (stam nb)
Orc (anything)
Khajitt (pve)
Are all good as well
Orc is decent, but falls below redguard and Khajiit otherwise yeah. The magicka races are more of a quality over quantity thing.Power Wealth And Influence.0 -
Code2501✭✭✭✭If the op was serious they would be calling for a stamina skill line in each class in tandem with additional magicka options via weapons or spell crafting but the entire conversation has been narrowly framed around only replacing magicka spells with stamina skills.
Look at NB as an example, zos could reasonably change the entire assassin skill line to stamina with some adjustments to the skill line to make them less spell-like and make siphoning and shadow magicka exclusive lines. But doing so without providing additional non class-bound magicka options would create an acute imbalance in the game as a whole simply because all the flexibility in extending the base class exists in weapon choice currently.
You could Reasonably argue Guild trees are presently balanced for choice (even though mage guild is 50% junk). You can't say the same with weapons.
We have a Destruction staff and a Restoration staff but where is the Alteration Totem, or the Illusion Scepter or the Conjuration Tattoo?
If your going to be genuine about balance of choice you cannot seriously talk about removing magicka spells from class templates without talking about how you are going to re-balance choice on the whole between skills and spells.
You want to talk balance... why are 70% of spells locked out as a choice when you create a character simply because of the 'class' you select compared to the 95% of stamina skills you can choose from regardless of your class? Address this issue then come talk to me about re-writing the class templates to be more stamina based.Edited by Code2501 on May 18, 2017 8:42AM1 -
Etchos✭✭✭Anti_Virus wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
You are the only one here forcing your opinion down the OPs throat.
Sharing stam with dodge roll/block is not an advantage since it runs out faster especially next patch with the 5% stam cost increase
Block nerf will ensure that no one will be perma blocking even if they build for it and if the don't stam will run out quick.
Roll dodge fatigue makes sure no stam build is rolling indefinitely and Now that stam NBs have a weaker SA that costs stamina now thier sustain is bad. On a magic build for example you just need enough regen to break free every 7 secs, with damge shields particularly a magic Sorcerer you shouldn't need to roll dodge, and now that Ice staff can block like sword and shield you shouldn't need to use stam to block either.
So this allows you access to tons of damge healing and utilities max stats for optimal performance while havung a plethora of options to build from opposed to stan builds. Conserving the most important resources for survival for important means.
Your logic is flawed trying to force your opinion on others, your opinion isn't wrong but its just an opinion like most other posts.
Exactly but you are looking at it wrong.
Which is why we need to keep Magicka morphs of class skills which buff Stamina builds. As I have said before if I am using stam for damage skills, blocking and dodging so my buffs and utility are Magicka skills so I am not pulling everything out of one pot.
Moving to a system where class skills have a choice between Magicka and Stam the way its described as magicka skills benefit magicka players and stamina skills benefit stamina skills creates a massive inbalance.
Magicka characters will be using mag for damage utility and buffs and using stam to dodge, block and sprint.
Stam characters will be using stam for damage, utility, buffs dodging, sprinting and blocking. No use for Magicka. Massive problems with resources. Stam becomes a poorer citizen.
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Etchos✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.2 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭If the op was serious they would be calling for a stamina skill line in each class in tandem with additional magicka options via weapons or spell crafting but the entire conversation has been narrowly framed around only replacing magicka spells with stamina skills.
Look at NB as an example, zos could reasonably change the entire assassin skill line to stamina with some adjustments to the skill line to make them less spell-like and make siphoning and shadow magicka exclusive lines. But doing so without providing additional non class-bound magicka options would create an acute imbalance in the game as a whole simply because all the flexibility in extending the base class exists in weapon choice currently.
You could Reasonably argue Guild trees are presently balanced for choice (even though mage guild is 50% junk). You can't say the same with weapons.
We have a Destruction staff and a Restoration staff but where is the Alteration Totem, or the Illusion Scepter or the Conjuration Tattoo?
If your going to be genuine about balance of choice you cannot seriously talk about removing magicka spells from class templates without talking about how you are going to re-balance choice on the whole between skills and spells.
You want to talk balance... why are 70% of spells locked out as a choice when you create a character simply because of the 'class' you select compared to the 95% of stamina skills you can choose from regardless of your class? Address this issue then come talk to me about re-writing the class templates to be more stamina based.
Sorry that you feel that the conversation has been narrowly framed. If you read the first post of the thread, in detail, you'll see that due to the variables listed, the game (in its current state) actually benefits from having more magicka class skills than stamina. I merely suggest a less drastic difference, perhaps closer to a 70-30% divide, specifically for class skills.
I'm a bit confused about the third paragraph of your post. Are you implying that right now, both magicka and stamina classes have the same amount of choice when selecting skills?0 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭Avran_Sylt wrote: »This is the Tricky Thing. In a game where magic exists, should you be able to harness that magic with your muscles? Should you be able to conjure fire because you're strong? Should you be able to bring down lightning on your enemies because you can run fast? Or should those feats require some form of magicka cost?
In the grand scheme, I do believe that Magic should be the most visually diverse resource, as it's taking something ethereal and harnessing it with the power of your mind.
I honestly think that several class skills should not be stamina morphs. Such as the Templar's Biting Jabs.
This is, of course, had they made Physical weapons plentiful in the base game. Which they haven't, yet.
It would be perfect if in later iterations of this game, They diversified the pool of physical damage weapons, adding such things as Spears, Long/Shortbows, Quivers, Fists. Allow more in depth customization of the weapons and add restrictions (such as melee and bows only being able to use poisons). Then make most class skills Magicka Based, the few of which that are stamina based are either Damage buffs or CQC CC skills. Then introduce a spell crafting system, such that all classes can make similar skills to what other classes have, but because of their class passives they may excel in particular areas. Have the Mages guild Allow you to begin Spell Crafting, and let the fighters guild allow you to learn techniques from their fighters for particular weapons.
This is a good point. I thought about that at first too. Doing something magical should use magic. I do however think that a creative mind could create morphs that make sense or just adding to the lore to explain it. Say for example stamina characters utilize a physical connection to nature through force of will. There could be justification there that an act like that would require stamina to maintain. Then skill morphs would then be more earth, wind, poison in nature while magic stays fire, lightning, frost, and magic (duh). Or if they took into account your idea to expand physical weapons then a Templar's spear could for a stam character literally be a spear; a whip could be a whip. That would be a ton of work which they don't really seem to be into though.
I think Zos missed a great opportunity for Morrowind. Instead of spending so much time on resource management changes They could've brought spell crafting, jewelry crafting, and expanded the function of the main guilds. When I remember playing Morrowind I think of Tinur's hoptoad spells, levitation, Scroll of Icarian Flight, the teleport spell where you could mark one location and zap yourself there. I suppose that's another topic entirely though.0 -
lucky_Sage✭✭✭✭✭most class skills are utility only about 4 to 6 are made to do dps other than nightblade which has 9 not counting ults
only thing good about destroy staff is the ult its the only dps weapon having to have a ability slotted to get the passive from it for dmg.
the way the game was made was with soft cap in mind where as youd use magicka for cc and stam for counter cc so before stam build used there magicka cc aswell as magicka using stam to counter
but soft caps are gone cuase they added broken cp that need a 100% overhaulDC PC NA
Magdk - main
Stamcro - alt
AD PS4 NA -retired (PC runs way better to play on console)
magdk
magblade
stamplar
magden
magsorc0 -
Code2501✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »If the op was serious they would be calling for a stamina skill line in each class in tandem with additional magicka options via weapons or spell crafting but the entire conversation has been narrowly framed around only replacing magicka spells with stamina skills.
Look at NB as an example, zos could reasonably change the entire assassin skill line to stamina with some adjustments to the skill line to make them less spell-like and make siphoning and shadow magicka exclusive lines. But doing so without providing additional non class-bound magicka options would create an acute imbalance in the game as a whole simply because all the flexibility in extending the base class exists in weapon choice currently.
You could Reasonably argue Guild trees are presently balanced for choice (even though mage guild is 50% junk). You can't say the same with weapons.
We have a Destruction staff and a Restoration staff but where is the Alteration Totem, or the Illusion Scepter or the Conjuration Tattoo?
If your going to be genuine about balance of choice you cannot seriously talk about removing magicka spells from class templates without talking about how you are going to re-balance choice on the whole between skills and spells.
You want to talk balance... why are 70% of spells locked out as a choice when you create a character simply because of the 'class' you select compared to the 95% of stamina skills you can choose from regardless of your class? Address this issue then come talk to me about re-writing the class templates to be more stamina based.
Sorry that you feel that the conversation has been narrowly framed. If you read the first post of the thread, in detail, you'll see that due to the variables listed, the game (in its current state) actually benefits from having more magicka class skills than stamina. I merely suggest a less drastic difference, perhaps closer to a 70-30% divide, specifically for class skills.
I'm a bit confused about the third paragraph of your post. Are you implying that right now, both magicka and stamina classes have the same amount of choice when selecting skills?
Its a matter of fact that choosing a class at character creation puts at most a dozen stamina skills out of reach forever but at the same time about 100 magicka spells forever inacessible.
Class templates actualy inhibit freedom of choice. I can pick up any weapon at any point and use all of those skills on any character, that freedom of choice is biased toward stamina skills at present. I can change my wood elf from a tank into an archer and then decide I'd like to try a melee bleed crit master with daggers all without creating a new character. Very few stamina skills are restricted by class.
In principle I'm all for there being higher volume of class unique stamina skills for flavour. But not till players are given more freedom with non class bound spells.
Diminishing spell choice for magicka spells even further in class trees without addressing this imbalance is simply not an option for a healthy game and is totally against the spirit of Elder Scrolls gameplay of character choice.
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seedubsrun✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »If the op was serious they would be calling for a stamina skill line in each class in tandem with additional magicka options via weapons or spell crafting but the entire conversation has been narrowly framed around only replacing magicka spells with stamina skills.
Look at NB as an example, zos could reasonably change the entire assassin skill line to stamina with some adjustments to the skill line to make them less spell-like and make siphoning and shadow magicka exclusive lines. But doing so without providing additional non class-bound magicka options would create an acute imbalance in the game as a whole simply because all the flexibility in extending the base class exists in weapon choice currently.
You could Reasonably argue Guild trees are presently balanced for choice (even though mage guild is 50% junk). You can't say the same with weapons.
We have a Destruction staff and a Restoration staff but where is the Alteration Totem, or the Illusion Scepter or the Conjuration Tattoo?
If your going to be genuine about balance of choice you cannot seriously talk about removing magicka spells from class templates without talking about how you are going to re-balance choice on the whole between skills and spells.
You want to talk balance... why are 70% of spells locked out as a choice when you create a character simply because of the 'class' you select compared to the 95% of stamina skills you can choose from regardless of your class? Address this issue then come talk to me about re-writing the class templates to be more stamina based.
Sorry that you feel that the conversation has been narrowly framed. If you read the first post of the thread, in detail, you'll see that due to the variables listed, the game (in its current state) actually benefits from having more magicka class skills than stamina. I merely suggest a less drastic difference, perhaps closer to a 70-30% divide, specifically for class skills.
I'm a bit confused about the third paragraph of your post. Are you implying that right now, both magicka and stamina classes have the same amount of choice when selecting skills?
Its a matter of fact that choosing a class at character creation puts at most a dozen stamina skills out of reach forever but at the same time about 100 magicka spells forever inacessible.
Class templates actualy inhibit freedom of choice. I can pick up any weapon at any point and use all of those skills on any character, that freedom of choice is biased toward stamina skills at present. I can change my wood elf from a tank into an archer and then decide I'd like to try a melee bleed crit master with daggers all without creating a new character. Very few stamina skills are restricted by class.
In principle I'm all for there being higher volume of class unique stamina skills for flavour. But not till players are given more freedom with non class bound spells.
Diminishing spell choice for magicka spells even further in class trees without addressing this imbalance is simply not an option for a healthy game and is totally against the spirit of Elder Scrolls gameplay of character choice.
Taking one existing magicka morph and making it stamina is a bad idea in my opinion. That would definitely take a balance issue and just move the weight of it to the other side. This balance would work though if there were two morphs for each resource type. You go to skills, select the morphable skill, it asks Stamina or Magicka, boom you have two morph options tied to your chosen resource or they just take into account what resource pool is larger and that determines the morphs you get although I think getting the choice would be better.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »seedubsrun wrote: »While I agree some skills could use stamina morphs, I don't agree they should do it. Here's why:
- which morphs do Stam get? Should mag get full utility while Stam gets a dmg morph? There's only two options for each skill, so which receives what? I believe this to be a problem that zos has, particularly with templars. Look at empowering sweeps, the mag version is utility but they have the high DMG morph to Stam to give Stam more options. But they forgot that DB outperforms cresant sweep, and magpkars used the old form which removed their options.
- Stam lines have instant cast abilities which can be chained easily together. Compare that to certain class should which are utility based, higher cost, and have to deal with higher spell resistance of enemies. Having more options is a bonus for mag, knowing you can adapt over not having a strong burst chain
- assuming each archytype can pull a stamor mag ability to their bar, the stamina classes have the same access to the mag abilities for utility. Stamplars are not locked out of purge, Stam sorcs use dark deal to turn mag into stam/heals, DK's gained major mending via a mag cost ability while turning mag into stam with helping hands. Mag classes cannot afford to run certain stam abilities and if we do we have to slot a weapon that will give us a benefit (swords). We also don't have many abilities to turn Stam into mag and even if we do it's using a 16k Stam pool which only has enough juice to save for dodge rolling/blocking.
- stamina weapons gained ultimates. That was the last balance change they needed. I feel like they are in a good place for PvP.
My thoughts on the matter.
This is why I think upon earning the morph of an ability you should be given a choice to go a stamina route or a magicka route. After making that selection you'll get two morph options just like normal only they'll either both be stam or both mag. this would eliminate the utility or dmg issue. The option would really just be available for attacks and not buffs. For example a stam sorc would still use magicka to cast crit surge and would need a small pool for that stuff just like a mag sorc needs stamina for dodge, cc, etc but say a stamina morph of liquid lightning might become acid rain (it's storm calling not lightning calling), do poison damage, and cost stamina. The duration, size, and damage would be the same as the magicka morph. the resource used and damage type would change. Maybe Overload becomes Monsoon and does physical damage wind bursts (LA) or gails of wind (HA) that give back stamina and a third bar. Sure stam would have the benefit of weapon lines they could use as well but we're all limited to the same number of ability slots and there's still only going to be certain combinations that make for a usable build. Mag classes wouldn't need to run weapon skills anyway as destro skills are pretty solid. Sure it's only one line but depending on the damage type the attacks take on different effects. I would be into expanding that a bit in some way but that's another topic. Remember it's not really about creating more stamina abilities as much as it's about allowing the stamina version of a class to stay true to the unique qualities of that class. Also, remember the Warden class is already attempting (albeit poorly imo) to dip into this concept.
Sorry, do you know that mDK class playing style is absolutely melee? I can't play mDK without those melee skills, and you want to take them away?
Making those skills a melee version pigeonholes mDKs into a moar niche playing style that they have now. Sure, I support Choking talons as a stam morph doing poison dmg (it makes sanse) but you can't gut one version of the class to make sure the other is strong.
It's the same than if I ask for all the stam wpn skill lines a magicka morph... how about a magica version of WB?
Who said anything about taking away melee skills? That would be ridiculous. I was simply saying that as a mag main it wouldn't offend me in any way giving stam players more options even though they already have 4 weapon lines to choose from and mag only has 1. If you're a mag character that relies on some melee skills, the changes I posed wouldn't affect that in anyway
Edit: Also I was only referring to class abilities that would get alternate morphs not weapon skills
That's the point. If you advocate for destro line as main line for magicka based DK, what's the point in making a DK if he has no ranged skills besides stone giant? Better going on with Sorc or Mageblade.
If you count all the options stam has and all the options magicka has per class you will get similar numbers
At no point did I advocate for magDKs to use destro for main. I don't care what they use, that's up to the player and not even close to the point I was making. Use the April Fool's broom and a slingshot for all I care.
Also, it doesn't matter if you add up all stam options and mag options and they end up being a similar number. That's also not the point. All I said was as it pertains to the skills of a class that make that class unique, there should be more options for stam characters. It would be purely additive and wouldn't take anything away from anyone, especially your DK. All current skills would still exist as they are. Only difference is some stamina skills would also offer some magicka morphs and some magicka skills would offer some stamina morphs purely to give the player the option to immerse themselves more into the class based on their play style. How would being given more options to play the game the way you want to play it while simultaneously taking nothing away from anyone be a bad thing?
I want a mDK using a bow... I can't. I accept it.
Is that so hard to get?
There used to be a morph for the bow that did fire damage.
Yes, I know, like the EP guy in TF and his policy. Nevertheless that skill didn't work on spell dmg but on weapon dmg, following an early concept in this game: weapon skills used to escalate based on wpn dmg... even stavesSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stamSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.1 -
FearlessOne_2014✭✭✭✭✭
✭It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.
I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.
On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.
On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.
For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.
Yup I agree. In solo, and small scale non dueling environments Stamina builds is the clear winning. What that guy is asking is for magicka builds to lose more skills to make stamina GOD Tier'ed like it was in the DB dlc days. Also that guys forgets to let people know that 5/5/2 is exclusively a stamina things. Magicka builds can not have 5/5/2 like stam, nor be able to laugh about CCs and immobs like stamina does.
Yes I plays both playstyles.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.
I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.
On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.
On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.
For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.
Yup I agree. In solo, and small scale non dueling environments Stamina builds is the clear winning. What that guy is asking is for magicka builds to lose more skills to make stamina GOD Tier'ed like it was in the DB dlc days. Also that guys forgets to let people know that 5/5/2 is exclusively a stamina things. Magicka builds can not have 5/5/2 like stam, nor be able to laugh about CCs and immobs like stamina does.
Yes I plays both playstyles.
I hear your argument, and I agree that there are other variables to consider. If we are going to use those variables for discussion, then I would also like to submit a few, as counterpoints:
- When stamina was "GOD Tier'ed," proc sets could crit for large burst damage numbers, and many players were wearing light/medium armor. Proc sets no longer crit and many players have been using heavy armor (we'll see if that changes in Morrowind).
- Bow + 2H only has access to 5/5/1.
- There are no stamina healing weapons. Stamina only has damage and tanking, while Magicka has tanking (ice), healing (resto), and damage (fire/ice).
- Stamina cannot laugh about shield stacking and non-crit shields like Magicka can.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.
I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.
On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.
On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.
For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.
Yup I agree. In solo, and small scale non dueling environments Stamina builds is the clear winning. What that guy is asking is for magicka builds to lose more skills to make stamina GOD Tier'ed like it was in the DB dlc days. Also that guys forgets to let people know that 5/5/2 is exclusively a stamina things. Magicka builds can not have 5/5/2 like stam, nor be able to laugh about CCs and immobs like stamina does.
Yes I plays both playstyles.
I hear your argument, and I agree that there are other variables to consider. If we are going to use those variables for discussion, then I would also like to submit a few, as counterpoints:
- When stamina was "GOD Tier'ed," proc sets could crit for large burst damage numbers, and many players were wearing light/medium armor. Proc sets no longer crit and many players have been using heavy armor (we'll see if that changes in Morrowind).
- Bow + 2H only has access to 5/5/1.
- There are no stamina healing weapons. Stamina only has damage and tanking, while Magicka has tanking (ice), healing (resto), and damage (fire/ice).
- Stamina cannot laugh about shield stacking and non-crit shields like Magicka can.
Stamina also has access to vigor... where as magicka doesn't, they also have shuffle etc....
Stamina doesn't need a healing weapon with vigor and other class heals such as crit surge, dark deal, Hot's such as bloodthirst etc...PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.
I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.
On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.
On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.
For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.
Yup I agree. In solo, and small scale non dueling environments Stamina builds is the clear winning. What that guy is asking is for magicka builds to lose more skills to make stamina GOD Tier'ed like it was in the DB dlc days. Also that guys forgets to let people know that 5/5/2 is exclusively a stamina things. Magicka builds can not have 5/5/2 like stam, nor be able to laugh about CCs and immobs like stamina does.
Yes I plays both playstyles.
I think OP was initially just saying that when playing the stamina version of a class players have less abilities to choose from that make that class unique than magicka players do. This creates a situation where lots of stam builds are mostly using weapon, fighters guild, or undaunted skills with a couple class skills. When that occurs there isn't much difference between a stam DK, NB, Templar, or sorc. Sure they're absolutely different but doing the same comparison between mag versions of classes seems to offer a bit more variety. As long as there are metas though that variety doesn't really matter. I do think though this change could create more viable builds than the handful that exist now. It could easily be done without taking skills away from mag characters. That's the only way I could see it happening without causing even more forum rage.1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.
Where are you getting these numbers from? This whole thread is about morphs. I'm not talking about making an entire skill stamina... is that what you think?0 -
Just wanted to say this is a no sense whining thread . There are only 2 magic weapon lines . That's not fair either . Some people's idea of balance will if listened to will turn this game into tofuI don't give free items because it's a just game. Play the game.
I give free items because it's just a game. Play the game.
I understand both. I am the contradiction.0 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.
Where are you getting these numbers from? This whole thread is about morphs. I'm not talking about making an entire skill stamina... is that what you think?
I think Xvorg is under the impression you think ZOS should take 1 morph from the skills you listed that currently have both morphs magicka and make one stamina which would cause magicka to lose and stam to gain. Maybe clarify your position as this is a great thread so farEdited by seedubsrun on May 18, 2017 8:37PM0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.
I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.
On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.
On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.
For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.
Yup I agree. In solo, and small scale non dueling environments Stamina builds is the clear winning. What that guy is asking is for magicka builds to lose more skills to make stamina GOD Tier'ed like it was in the DB dlc days. Also that guys forgets to let people know that 5/5/2 is exclusively a stamina things. Magicka builds can not have 5/5/2 like stam, nor be able to laugh about CCs and immobs like stamina does.
Yes I plays both playstyles.
I hear your argument, and I agree that there are other variables to consider. If we are going to use those variables for discussion, then I would also like to submit a few, as counterpoints:
- When stamina was "GOD Tier'ed," proc sets could crit for large burst damage numbers, and many players were wearing light/medium armor. Proc sets no longer crit and many players have been using heavy armor (we'll see if that changes in Morrowind).
- Bow + 2H only has access to 5/5/1.
- There are no stamina healing weapons. Stamina only has damage and tanking, while Magicka has tanking (ice), healing (resto), and damage (fire/ice).
- Stamina cannot laugh about shield stacking and non-crit shields like Magicka can.
Stamina also has access to vigor... where as magicka doesn't, they also have shuffle etc....
Stamina doesn't need a healing weapon with vigor and other class heals such as crit surge, dark deal, Hot's such as bloodthirst etc...
- Every class has access to a strong magicka burst heal (except Nightblade, it's more of a few nice HOT skills), so I don't know where you're going with the Vigor argument.
- Magicka has shuffle too... and it has a pretty long duration, meaning you don't have to spam it, so it's one of the more cost efficient stam skills for a magicka build (I certainly use it on my magicka builds - it's great with Tava's Favor).
- Resto staff (to your last point) has Rapid Regen (HOT) and Force Siphon (health return and a morph with both health and magicka return)... oh, and have you ever used that nice little bubble skill that gives a massive health return? Eh, nevermind, I'm sure no one uses it (I'm just kidding).
We could keep going with this and never get anywhere, or we could try to stay focused on the objective of the thread and you could just tell me why you think a 70-30% divide (roughly) in favor of magicka class skills over stamina is worse than what we currently have.0 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭FearlessOne_2014 wrote: »It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.
I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.
On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.
On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.
For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.
Yup I agree. In solo, and small scale non dueling environments Stamina builds is the clear winning. What that guy is asking is for magicka builds to lose more skills to make stamina GOD Tier'ed like it was in the DB dlc days. Also that guys forgets to let people know that 5/5/2 is exclusively a stamina things. Magicka builds can not have 5/5/2 like stam, nor be able to laugh about CCs and immobs like stamina does.
Yes I plays both playstyles.
Magicka builds can have 5/5/2 quite easily.
Monster set/ lich/ the magicka pen set (forgot its name)
PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭MarriedWithChildren wrote: »Just wanted to say this is a no sense whining thread . There are only 2 magic weapon lines . That's not fair either . Some people's idea of balance will if listened to will turn this game into tofu
I disagree that this is a whining thread. I, and others in this space, have put a lot of thought into making well-constructed and supported arguments to our claims.
I agree that it is unfair that there are only 2 magic weapon lines. I would very much enjoy a dual-wielding magicka weapon option.2 -
leepalmer95✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »MarriedWithChildren wrote: »Just wanted to say this is a no sense whining thread . There are only 2 magic weapon lines . That's not fair either . Some people's idea of balance will if listened to will turn this game into tofu
I disagree that this is a whining thread. I, and others in this space, have put a lot of thought into making well-constructed and supported arguments to our claims.
I agree that it is unfair that there are only 2 magic weapon lines. I would very much enjoy a dual-wielding magicka weapon option.
Something like a wand and orb for a s&b type of magic weapon.
Wand = smaller than staffs = less dmg.
Orb for basically the skyrim type magic shield.PS4 EU DC
Current CP : 756+
I have every character level 50, both a magicka and stamina version.
RIP my effort to get 5x v16 characters...1 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »MarriedWithChildren wrote: »Just wanted to say this is a no sense whining thread . There are only 2 magic weapon lines . That's not fair either . Some people's idea of balance will if listened to will turn this game into tofu
I disagree that this is a whining thread. I, and others in this space, have put a lot of thought into making well-constructed and supported arguments to our claims.
I agree that it is unfair that there are only 2 magic weapon lines. I would very much enjoy a dual-wielding magicka weapon option.
Something like a wand and orb for a s&b type of magic weapon.
Wand = smaller than staffs = less dmg.
Orb for basically the skyrim type magic shield.
That would look really cool - wards in Skyrim are well-designed aesthetically.0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.
Where are you getting these numbers from? This whole thread is about morphs. I'm not talking about making an entire skill stamina... is that what you think?
Lava whip has 2 morphs last time I checked, right? You are suggesting one stam morph and one magicka morph.
So I dare you to count again all the magicka choices and all the stam choices a DK has for DPSing, including weapon skill lines but no ultis.
My count:
Magicka 15: whip x 2 - embers - engulfing - Inhale x 2 - stone giant - force shock x2 - WoE x2 - Destro touch x2 - impulse x 2.
Stam 32: Venom claw - noxious - uppercut x2 - crit charge x2 - cleave x 2 - reverse slash x2 - puncture x 2 - low slash x 2 - power bash x 2 - flurry x 2 - twin slashes x 2 - whirlwind x 2 - hidden blade x 2 - snipe x2 - volley x2 - arrow spray x2 - poison arrow x2.
Considering you can have max 2 wpns, the count decreses to ~16 effective choices.
So mDK has 15 feasible option, while stamDK has 16 feasible options.
What do you think about this?Edited by Xvorg on May 18, 2017 8:52PMSarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭leepalmer95 wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »MarriedWithChildren wrote: »Just wanted to say this is a no sense whining thread . There are only 2 magic weapon lines . That's not fair either . Some people's idea of balance will if listened to will turn this game into tofu
I disagree that this is a whining thread. I, and others in this space, have put a lot of thought into making well-constructed and supported arguments to our claims.
I agree that it is unfair that there are only 2 magic weapon lines. I would very much enjoy a dual-wielding magicka weapon option.
Something like a wand and orb for a s&b type of magic weapon.
Wand = smaller than staffs = less dmg.
Orb for basically the skyrim type magic shield.
I like where your head's at. More options would be cool. They should've just started out with 3 separate skill lines for destro based on element. Then mag would have 4 and stam would too. That would be impossible now though. If I suddenly couldn't have WoE on my lightning staff because it became a fire skill I'd be rather salty. I'd like to see destro (2-handed line), wand and orb (dual wield or s&b), and bound deadric weapons (magicka based melee weapons and has precedent in the Elder Scrolls history)0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »GrumpyDuckling wrote: »And people are telling you that considering weapon skills/ dodge rolls/ break frees etc that stamina morphs to those skills are not needed as at present it is balanced and your suggestion would create an imbalance.
And you respond with "please reread the first post"
I have and couldn't disagree more with your conclusions as your analysis is flawed. I can keep rereading till world ends. its not going to change my opinion.
Here is a suggestion. Instead of telling people to reread your post why don't you carefully re read theirs. You might learn something
I have re-read your posts many times to try to understand your argument, and I'm asking you to prove my argument wrong (that there should be more stamina morph options). So far, though, your reasoning for your points have been:
- "what possible benefit would this bring to the game?" To which my response is, stamina would have more class-specific ability selections - and I think that is a benefit for diversity of stamina builds.
- "it would ruin the game." To which my response is, how?
See post above. It really isn't rocket science.
1) Who said that utility skills, specifically, should get stamina morphs? Are you just assuming? Did you read any of the other posts I made in response to what you are saying? (See list of mostly non-utility skills that one could argue deserve stamina morphs below).
2) All skills that receive stamina morphs would still have a magicka morph option. I don't think you're recognizing that.
Look at this rough list of skills (mostly damage skills), which one could make a strong argument for adding a stamina morph to. Perhaps not all should, nor should these be the only skills considered, but again, the argument could be made:
Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple
Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash
Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritual
- Cleansing Ritual
I don't know how to be any more clear in my responses. I've posted this list (which answers your concerns about utility skills getting stamina morphs) multiple times in this thread, and I'm seeing a pattern develop where you are arguing against points that have already been made.
again: why?
DK will be forced to run 5 class dmg skills according to that and 3 (4) in the destro staff line. Stam will get 5 class dmg skills + the 2 already have + 11 on the weapon lines.
So 8 (9) skills for magicka and 19 for stam
What are you talking about? You're just making up numbers. There are 11 magicka damage morphs just from the DK line itself. All of these skills have damage dealing magicka morphs:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Inferno
- Spiked Armor
- Dark Talons
- Inhale
- Stonefist
- Petrify (you're counting stamina morph in your numbers as a damage skill, so I'm including it in Magicka count)
- Ash Cloud
Then for Destruction Staff:
- Force Shock
- Wall of Elements
- Destructive Touch
- Impulse
Magicka = 15 total options
Stamina = 15 total options
Stamina morph options:
- Lava Whip
- Searing Strike
- Fiery Breath
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud
Weapons morph options: (My Stam DK uses OH and Shield and 2H)
- Uppercut
- Critical Charge
- Cleave
- Reverse Slash
- Puncture
- Low Slash
- Shield Charge
- Power Bash
The numbers are exactly the same for both (unless you run dual wield and bow, then stam is +1 for each). Please don't spread false information.
I was counting the skills you suggested. Now you are counting 15 for magicka and 15 for stam without morphs (with morphs included they are around 30 each)
Now you want to increase stam options to ~35 while decreasing magicka to ~25.. Is that fair?
I' ll repeat it again, I'm ok with giving stam one or 2 morphs that are magicka and kind of useless (like choking talons) while making some changes to the skill itself, to make it moar apealing, but forcing all mDKs to run one DPS option implies no balance: flame lash for example, will dmg PvE groups because once you hit a off balanced enemy with power lash, the off balance status is gone (since it stuns), so the magicka and stamina builds that have dmg increase with the exploiter passive are going to do less DPS because of that. Then mDks running with flame lash will be kicked out from end game content.
Where are you getting these numbers from? This whole thread is about morphs. I'm not talking about making an entire skill stamina... is that what you think?
Lava whip has 2 morphs last time I checked, right? You are suggesting one stam morph and one magicka morph.
So I dare you to count again all the magicka choices and all the stam choices a DK has for DPSing, including weapon skill lines but no ultis.
My count:
Magicka 15: whip x 2 - embers - engulfing - Inhale x 2 - stone giant - force shock x2 - WoE x2 - Destro touch x2 - impulse x 2.
Stam 32: Venom claw - noxious - uppercut x2 - crit charge x2 - cleave x 2 - reverse slash x2 - puncture x 2 - low slash x 2 - power bash x 2 - flurry x 2 - twin slashes x 2 - whirlwind x 2 - hidden blade x 2 - snipe x2 - volley x2 - arrow spray x2 - poison arrow x2.
Considering you can have max 2 wpns, the count decreses to ~16 effective choices.
So mDK has 15 feasible option, while stamDK has 16 feasible options.
What do you think about this?
Yes, you are posting pretty much the same thing that I said, with the once exception being that I was using 2H and OH and Shield, so it was 15 DPS options for both, instead of 16 Stamina and 15 Magicka.
If stamina could access all 4 weapon skill lines at once, then yes that would be very unbalanced. But because they can only access 2 weapon skill lines, maximum, then the DPS options are very similar between Magicka and Stamina.
If your argument is that Magicka suffers from lack of weapon options, then I very much agree with you. I would love to see more magicka weapon skill lines implemented into the game.0
