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87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?
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Anhedonie✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭Yes. Simply because this game uses both old and new mechanics, that don't synergize at all.
There should be 4 morphs per ability, but that will be too much work for ZOS. Too much work for content that isn't going to generate any profit.Profanity filter is a crime against the freedom of speech. Also gags.0 -
DeHei✭✭✭✭✭There was a similar discussion somewhere in the past. The fazit of that thread were 1 morph for each playstyle from any skill (tank/life-based, stamina-based, magicka-based)
This would really be better then anything elseDeHei - EP Magicka Templar AllrounderDe Hei(Youtube)0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Okay? So why do people use them still? It's effective. @Xvorg You've never used sword shield/DW on a magicka build?
Yup. But lately I've changed S/B for 2H sword. Better stam regen (moar dodge roll) and moar dmg ... crit rush is the best gap closer in the game.
S/B is OK for permablocking, but the nerf to blocking makes it weaker on any mag char. No stam, no block.
DW is plainly bad. Just one passive on mag char. It could be interesting on DoT builds, but DoTs in this game are weak (from PvP PoV)
Finally, I think S/B is not bad on a mag char, but by no way it is good. DW idea that "it is gud" comes under the concept that moar spell dmg = moar dmg, when in reality you put moar dmg by weaving attacks. DW weave is way weaker than any staff weaving... even 2H weaving is better for melee magicka chars.
Another point for s/B DW concept that it is gud has to do with the 5-5-2 config, but 5-5-2 on a magicka char is weaker than on a stam char because of the weapons they use.
@Xvorg Okay, you are the only one comparing staff weaving to DW weaving damage and you can continue talking about usefulness all you want but all I'm saying is that they are viable options. Which they are.
Also....Ambush>Crit rush
hmmm, no. We were talking about how gud are dw and s/b for magicka chars. DW is bad because it doen't give anything to mag chars besides the extra spell dmg. S/b is not bad, but the nerf to blocking is making it a not so gud option. Hence 2H raises as viable for melee magicka (DK/NB/Temp)
Regarding crit rush VS ambush, the dmg crit rush puts on a mag char is way stronger than the dmg ambush puts on a mageblade, though Empower is interesting (only in NBs). Anyway, if any mDK had the option to chose between ambush and crit rush as gap closer, he would choose always crit rush, because after the gap closer, it comes the CC in the form of talons/Fossilize, so nobody is going to empower talons or the dmg fossilizze gives after breaking cc.
Apart from that, any stamblade using ambush havig a MS greatsword is doing it wrong. But they have the chance to use DW while having useful gap closer, and that's maybe the reason why stamblades prefer ambush over crit rush. Any other class chooses crit rush in stam chars.
To round up, 2h is a weapon whose passives work on equipped item, while DW works on abilities used (except for twin blade), so no useful DW skill for a magicka char, no reason to go DW (unless you like cool numbers).Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique0 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭
Okay? So why do people use them still? It's effective. @Xvorg You've never used sword shield/DW on a magicka build?
Yup. But lately I've changed S/B for 2H sword. Better stam regen (moar dodge roll) and moar dmg ... crit rush is the best gap closer in the game.
S/B is OK for permablocking, but the nerf to blocking makes it weaker on any mag char. No stam, no block.
DW is plainly bad. Just one passive on mag char. It could be interesting on DoT builds, but DoTs in this game are weak (from PvP PoV)
Finally, I think S/B is not bad on a mag char, but by no way it is good. DW idea that "it is gud" comes under the concept that moar spell dmg = moar dmg, when in reality you put moar dmg by weaving attacks. DW weave is way weaker than any staff weaving... even 2H weaving is better for melee magicka chars.
Another point for s/B DW concept that it is gud has to do with the 5-5-2 config, but 5-5-2 on a magicka char is weaker than on a stam char because of the weapons they use.
@Xvorg Okay, you are the only one comparing staff weaving to DW weaving damage and you can continue talking about usefulness all you want but all I'm saying is that they are viable options. Which they are.
Also....Ambush>Crit rush
hmmm, no. We were talking about how gud are dw and s/b for magicka chars. DW is bad because it doen't give anything to mag chars besides the extra spell dmg. S/b is not bad, but the nerf to blocking is making it a not so gud option. Hence 2H raises as viable for melee magicka (DK/NB/Temp)
Regarding crit rush VS ambush, the dmg crit rush puts on a mag char is way stronger than the dmg ambush puts on a mageblade, though Empower is interesting (only in NBs). Anyway, if any mDK had the option to chose between ambush and crit rush as gap closer, he would choose always crit rush, because after the gap closer, it comes the CC in the form of talons/Fossilize, so nobody is going to empower talons or the dmg fossilizze gives after breaking cc.
Apart from that, any stamblade using ambush havig a MS greatsword is doing it wrong. But they have the chance to use DW while having useful gap closer, and that's maybe the reason why stamblades prefer ambush over crit rush. Any other class chooses crit rush in stam chars.
To round up, 2h is a weapon whose passives work on equipped item, while DW works on abilities used (except for twin blade), so no useful DW skill for a magicka char, no reason to go DW (unless you like cool numbers).
Read my signature. Have a good one.The Flyers0 -
Xvorg✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭
Okay? So why do people use them still? It's effective. @Xvorg You've never used sword shield/DW on a magicka build?
Yup. But lately I've changed S/B for 2H sword. Better stam regen (moar dodge roll) and moar dmg ... crit rush is the best gap closer in the game.
S/B is OK for permablocking, but the nerf to blocking makes it weaker on any mag char. No stam, no block.
DW is plainly bad. Just one passive on mag char. It could be interesting on DoT builds, but DoTs in this game are weak (from PvP PoV)
Finally, I think S/B is not bad on a mag char, but by no way it is good. DW idea that "it is gud" comes under the concept that moar spell dmg = moar dmg, when in reality you put moar dmg by weaving attacks. DW weave is way weaker than any staff weaving... even 2H weaving is better for melee magicka chars.
Another point for s/B DW concept that it is gud has to do with the 5-5-2 config, but 5-5-2 on a magicka char is weaker than on a stam char because of the weapons they use.
@Xvorg Okay, you are the only one comparing staff weaving to DW weaving damage and you can continue talking about usefulness all you want but all I'm saying is that they are viable options. Which they are.
Also....Ambush>Crit rush
hmmm, no. We were talking about how gud are dw and s/b for magicka chars. DW is bad because it doen't give anything to mag chars besides the extra spell dmg. S/b is not bad, but the nerf to blocking is making it a not so gud option. Hence 2H raises as viable for melee magicka (DK/NB/Temp)
Regarding crit rush VS ambush, the dmg crit rush puts on a mag char is way stronger than the dmg ambush puts on a mageblade, though Empower is interesting (only in NBs). Anyway, if any mDK had the option to chose between ambush and crit rush as gap closer, he would choose always crit rush, because after the gap closer, it comes the CC in the form of talons/Fossilize, so nobody is going to empower talons or the dmg fossilizze gives after breaking cc.
Apart from that, any stamblade using ambush havig a MS greatsword is doing it wrong. But they have the chance to use DW while having useful gap closer, and that's maybe the reason why stamblades prefer ambush over crit rush. Any other class chooses crit rush in stam chars.
To round up, 2h is a weapon whose passives work on equipped item, while DW works on abilities used (except for twin blade), so no useful DW skill for a magicka char, no reason to go DW (unless you like cool numbers).
Read my signature. Have a good one.
So your better statement to avoid arguments is to consider anyone who disagrees with you a fool, based on his signature?
That's quite smart on your behalf... I mean, I never considered the fact that others predefined answers made me smarter than those who expose they point of views... no matter if they agreed or disagreed with me.
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself a fool..."Sarcasm is something too serious to be taken lightly
I was born with the wrong sign
In the wrong house
With the wrong ascendancy
I took the wrong road
That led to the wrong tendencies
I was in the wrong place at the wrong time
For the wrong reason and the wrong rhyme
On the wrong day of the wrong week
Used the wrong method with the wrong technique1 -
drakhan2002_ESO✭✭✭✭✭How many stamina abilities are on the weapons skill tree versus magicka abilities? (I do not know, only guessing here) I'd imagine you'd see an inverse. Also what about guild abilities, primarily the FG? I'd think most of those are stamina based. If you could put numbers to all the abilities in the game, not just cherry picking the class abilities, that would provide a better base of analysis.
Is it fair to say the classes are unbalanced if you're only considering one avenue of abilities and not looking at the whole picture? If you're look strictly at class abilities, it would appear so...however, the game is much larger than just class abilities.0 -
seedubsrun✭✭✭✭drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »How many stamina abilities are on the weapons skill tree versus magicka abilities? (I do not know, only guessing here) I'd imagine you'd see an inverse. Also what about guild abilities, primarily the FG? I'd think most of those are stamina based. If you could put numbers to all the abilities in the game, not just cherry picking the class abilities, that would provide a better base of analysis.
Is it fair to say the classes are unbalanced if you're only considering one avenue of abilities and not looking at the whole picture? If you're look strictly at class abilities, it would appear so...however, the game is much larger than just class abilities.
As for weapon abilities, they're all stamina so you're right in that taking them into account gives far greater balance. The main argument though is that having a stam character means using a majority weapon skills which makes all stam characters, regardless of class, pretty similar. The argument is whether or not adding more stam skills to the class abilities would allow stam versions of classes to be more unique without taking away from mag builds. I advocate for 2 stam morphs and 2 mag morphs for most attack skills across clases. Some suggest each skill gets one of each.0 -
Arenguros✭✭✭
Congratulations. You are the tenth player in this thread "discovering" this.drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »How many stamina abilities are on the weapons skill tree versus magicka abilities?
What you all don't see is that this actually contributes to the problem.
How?
Lets count the non class abilities that dps toons actually use: (Not counting ultimates).
Magicka:
Force Pulse - this is the usual spamable, some classes have better alternatives
Blockade - this is pretty much a must have skill on every magicka build
Ele Drain - a good skill, but already taken by most healers, so only nice to have for dps builds
Inner Light - as the buff is already provided by pots, this is usually taken for the max magicka
Harness Magicka - defensive, unless class provides better
Rearming Trap - used in some melee builds
-> there is more than enough space for class skills, most builds only run 2-4 non class skills
-> classes play very different, even within classes there are some choices
Stamina
Endless Hail - this is usually the single skill with the largest dps contribution, must have if you run a maelstrom bow
Poison Injection - if you take Hail, this just fits too well to skip
Flurry / Snipe - this is the usual spamable, save for some class alternatives
Blood Craze / Brawler / Carve - must have dot that deals a lot of damage
Whirling Blades - great tool for aoe clearing and also helps with sustain if you're not using pots
Cloak - provides both aoe damage and protection against aoe damage - must have in a lot of environments
Rearming Trap - another strong dot and important buff
Hunter - optional if you want to save on pots
Vigor - save warden pretty much the only group/big heal accessible to stamina chars
Caltrops - Another strong aoe
-> there is usually only space for 2-3 class skills
-> all classes are pretty much the same, there is barely any choice
Edited by Arenguros on May 25, 2017 1:25PM0 -
shinikaze✭✭✭DragonBound wrote: »Between guilds and weapons and class skills, i have never had a problem filling my two bar slots for my stamina chars. "More than you need" is more than sufficient in my book, especially given the increased usage of the three non-skill maneuvers block, dodge and break-free.
Considering the fighters guild abilities are crap to medicore for stamina classes you really do not know what your talking about, the only two abilities people pick is rearmed trap and dawnbreaker and every stamina build uses exactly the same thing.
If I don't really know what I am talking about why would you be agreeing on the use of 1/3 of the guild skills? Also correct me if I am wrong, but don't more than no builds use camo hunter or the other morph? That raises it to half, right?
Are you sure you know which of us doesn't know what they are talking about?
Far be it from me to stick facts in the way of fury tho. Carry on with whichever sky is falling regurgitation you were on.
Why would you use cammo hunter? 10% crit is meh at best... Total waste of skill slot.Edited by shinikaze on May 25, 2017 2:18PM0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Congratulations. You are the tenth player in this thread "discovering" this.drakhan2002_ESO wrote: »How many stamina abilities are on the weapons skill tree versus magicka abilities?
What you all don't see is that this actually contributes to the problem.
How?
Lets count the non class abilities that dps toons actually use: (Not counting ultimates).
Magicka:
Force Pulse - this is the usual spamable, some classes have better alternatives
Blockade - this is pretty much a must have skill on every magicka build
Ele Drain - a good skill, but already taken by most healers, so only nice to have for dps builds
Inner Light - as the buff is already provided by pots, this is usually taken for the max magicka
Harness Magicka - defensive, unless class provides better
Rearming Trap - used in some melee builds
-> there is more than enough space for class skills, most builds only run 2-4 non class skills
-> classes play very different, even within classes there are some choices
Stamina
Endless Hail - this is usually the single skill with the largest dps contribution, must have if you run a maelstrom bow
Poison Injection - if you take Hail, this just fits too well to skip
Flurry / Snipe - this is the usual spamable, save for some class alternatives
Blood Craze / Brawler / Carve - must have dot that deals a lot of damage
Whirling Blades - great tool for aoe clearing and also helps with sustain if you're not using pots
Cloak - provides both aoe damage and protection against aoe damage - must have in a lot of environments
Rearming Trap - another strong dot and important buff
Hunter - optional if you want to save on pots
Vigor - save warden pretty much the only group/big heal accessible to stamina chars
Caltrops - Another strong aoe
-> there is usually only space for 2-3 class skills
-> all classes are pretty much the same, there is barely any choice
I like your mention of Vigor because I think that is important. Almost every class (except Nightblade) has a strong magicka burst heal, and access to an entire weapon skill line (restoration) in which to get heals. Stamina builds have to rely on Vigor and/or running 2H for Rally, which drastically limits heal options (outside of the one Warden stamina heal).0 -
FlyLionel✭✭✭✭
Okay? So why do people use them still? It's effective. @Xvorg You've never used sword shield/DW on a magicka build?
Yup. But lately I've changed S/B for 2H sword. Better stam regen (moar dodge roll) and moar dmg ... crit rush is the best gap closer in the game.
S/B is OK for permablocking, but the nerf to blocking makes it weaker on any mag char. No stam, no block.
DW is plainly bad. Just one passive on mag char. It could be interesting on DoT builds, but DoTs in this game are weak (from PvP PoV)
Finally, I think S/B is not bad on a mag char, but by no way it is good. DW idea that "it is gud" comes under the concept that moar spell dmg = moar dmg, when in reality you put moar dmg by weaving attacks. DW weave is way weaker than any staff weaving... even 2H weaving is better for melee magicka chars.
Another point for s/B DW concept that it is gud has to do with the 5-5-2 config, but 5-5-2 on a magicka char is weaker than on a stam char because of the weapons they use.
@Xvorg Okay, you are the only one comparing staff weaving to DW weaving damage and you can continue talking about usefulness all you want but all I'm saying is that they are viable options. Which they are.
Also....Ambush>Crit rush
hmmm, no. We were talking about how gud are dw and s/b for magicka chars. DW is bad because it doen't give anything to mag chars besides the extra spell dmg. S/b is not bad, but the nerf to blocking is making it a not so gud option. Hence 2H raises as viable for melee magicka (DK/NB/Temp)
Regarding crit rush VS ambush, the dmg crit rush puts on a mag char is way stronger than the dmg ambush puts on a mageblade, though Empower is interesting (only in NBs). Anyway, if any mDK had the option to chose between ambush and crit rush as gap closer, he would choose always crit rush, because after the gap closer, it comes the CC in the form of talons/Fossilize, so nobody is going to empower talons or the dmg fossilizze gives after breaking cc.
Apart from that, any stamblade using ambush havig a MS greatsword is doing it wrong. But they have the chance to use DW while having useful gap closer, and that's maybe the reason why stamblades prefer ambush over crit rush. Any other class chooses crit rush in stam chars.
To round up, 2h is a weapon whose passives work on equipped item, while DW works on abilities used (except for twin blade), so no useful DW skill for a magicka char, no reason to go DW (unless you like cool numbers).
Read my signature. Have a good one.
So your better statement to avoid arguments is to consider anyone who disagrees with you a fool, based on his signature?
That's quite smart on your behalf... I mean, I never considered the fact that others predefined answers made me smarter than those who expose they point of views... no matter if they agreed or disagreed with me.
"A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself a fool..."
Yes I try to avoid arguments @Xvorg I came to provide more evidence and you come with a counter to a pure fact that sword and shield/DW for magicka setups are viable and strong. You write paragraphs derailing and continuing to talk about how things are bad and wonder off into your own world talking about your build/gap closers etc. And if you read between the lines of my signature, it actually means it's pointless to argue (in general)with another person. Especially if they don't get it.
So not 'us' arguing, but yourself arguing is over with. Have a good one.
Edited by FlyLionel on May 26, 2017 7:56PMThe Flyers0 -
JimT722✭✭✭✭✭
✭Stamina class skills are kind of an afterthought. There used to be zero. I have liked warriors or hybrid spell casters in other Elder Scrolls but here they seem inferior to magicka builds unfortunately. I don't think they will ever be on equal footing, stamina may just get thrown an occasional bone.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Stamina class skills are kind of an afterthought. There used to be zero. I have liked warriors or hybrid spell casters in other Elder Scrolls but here they seem inferior to magicka builds unfortunately. I don't think they will ever be on equal footing, stamina may just get thrown an occasional bone.
Due to the following you're really penalized with skill effectiveness if you want to hybrid-up:
1) attribute scaling
2) weapon/spell damage divide
It's a shame that so far there hasn't been any evidence that ZOS intends to re-think how at least the attribute scaling system works.0 -
F7sus4✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Yes.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?- On Stamina character you're using "dump stat" Magicka for occasional class-skill buffs and Stamina weapon-skills for DPS etc.
- On Magicka character you're using class-skills for DPS and utility and "dump stat" Stamina for occasional movement actions (dodge, break free, sprint, block etc.)
Edited by F7sus4 on May 30, 2017 9:12PM0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Yes.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?- On Stamina character you're using "dump stat" Magicka for occasional class-skill buffs and Stamina weapon-skills for DPS etc.
- On Magicka character you're using class-skills for DPS and utility and "dump stat" Stamina for occasional movement actions (dodge, break free, sprint, block etc.)
Who is asking for "all/most Magicka skills [to have a] Stamina equivalent?"0 -
F7sus4✭✭✭✭✭
✭
Unless there are new Skill Trees coming (or additional morphs to already existing skills) it's exactly what was meant - more Stamina skills being "the" balance. Why isn't and why shouldn't that be a goal in the game was already answered.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Yes.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?- On Stamina character you're using "dump stat" Magicka for occasional class-skill buffs and Stamina weapon-skills for DPS etc.
- On Magicka character you're using class-skills for DPS and utility and "dump stat" Stamina for occasional movement actions (dodge, break free, sprint, block etc.)
Who is asking for "all/most Magicka skills [to have a] Stamina equivalent?"0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭
Unless there are new Skill Trees coming (or additional morphs to already existing skills) it's exactly what was meant - more Stamina skills being "the" balance. Why isn't and why shouldn't that be a goal in the game was already answered.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »
Yes.GrumpyDuckling wrote: »87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?- On Stamina character you're using "dump stat" Magicka for occasional class-skill buffs and Stamina weapon-skills for DPS etc.
- On Magicka character you're using class-skills for DPS and utility and "dump stat" Stamina for occasional movement actions (dodge, break free, sprint, block etc.)
Who is asking for "all/most Magicka skills [to have a] Stamina equivalent?"
Exactly what was meant by whom?0 -
Carbonised✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭Because only a so-called "stam based" character can cast abilities that cost stamina, and only a so-called "magicka based" character can cast abilities that cost magicka? Lulz.
This isn't how you compare things, THIS is how you compare things:
- Number of magicka costing morphs and ult morphs that deal magic/elemental damage scaling with the magicka part of the CP tree: 69
- Number of stamina costing morphs and ult morphs that deal physical/poison/disease damage scaling with the stamina part of the CP tree: 65
What? Almost balanced!
What I did was simply remove things that do no damage, such as heals, CC, buffs/debuffs, and focus only on what differs from a stam to a mag setup, namely the damage abilities. Most of what you erroneously call "magicka abilities" are buffs/debuffs and CCs. And guess what, a stamina based character can use those just as efficiently as a magicka based one. In fact, without them your stamina characters would have this magicka pool that was completely useless and redundant. Now you use it for utility and buffs, just like the magicka characters use their stamina bars for CC break, sprint, block, dodge roll and bash.
Now let's talk about stamina 5/5/2 sets vs magicka 5/4/2, let's talk about force-tying magicka healing to a useless stick while stamina self healing is weapon-less. Let's talk about force-tying magicka DPS to a damage stick, while stamina DPS has the choice of 3 different weapon lines. Let's talk about how the tanking weapon skill line is all stamina. Let's talk about all the stamina proc sets. Let's talk about how all stamina DPS skills cost a significantly lower amount of stamina than all magicka DPS skills as default. Wanna keep going?Edited by Carbonised on May 31, 2017 11:03AM1 -
ookami007✭✭✭✭✭
✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »Magicka vs. Stamina Discrepancy by Class (Morphs Only)
Dragonknight
Magicka - 28 skills (+4 ultimates)
Stamina - 2 skills (+2 ultimates)
Nightblade
Magicka - 24 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 6 skills (+1 ultimate)
Sorcerer
Magicka - 26 skills (+6 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+0 ultimates)
Templar
Magicka - 26 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+1 ultimate)
Warden
Magicka - 27 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 3 skills (+1 ultimate)
Total Numbers
Total class skill morphs - Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19)
Total class ultimate morphs - Magicka (25) vs. Stamina (5)
Variables to Consider
- There are more Stamina weapon skill lines (4) than Magicka weapon skill lines (2).
- There are a few oddball skills (ex: Flames of Oblivion costs magicka to use, but will scale with highest statistics).
- There are a few skills that scale off health, but cost magicka (ex: Blazing Shield).
- Some skills are buff skills, without damage components.
- Stamina is used exclusively in breaking CC, roll-dodging, and blocking (for every weapon equipped except ice staff).
- Magicka is used exclusively for shielding - excluding Bone Shield (guild ability), and blocking with ice staff.
Analysis
Most of the variables point to the need for more class-based Magicka skills than Stamina, however when 131 out of 150 skills are Magicka-based, Stamina builds are very limited when selecting from their pool of class skills. Perhaps a 60-40%, or even a 70-30% divide (in favor of Magicka) would give Stamina morphs more options. Also, there is no justification for why Magicka Ultimate morphs are more abundant (25 in total), than Stamina Ultimate morphs (5 in total).
@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
Please consider.
But, on the flip side, all weapons - other than staffs - have only stamina abilities. I know, they aren't class abilities, but that does actually give Stamina users quite a few more potential abilities over magicka.
I actually have issues the opposite direction as well, as if you are a magicka user - with the sustain issues - you have a choice between um... staff or... um... staff because stamina weapons only regen stamina and so you have to always have one staff if you wish to recharge your magicka.
There really should be stamina and magicka morphs for everything. Let people play the way they want instead of getting pigeon-holed.
0 -
Animal_Mother✭✭✭✭Well one thing can be said for this thread. Its amusing.
Its like a competition to see who can come up with the most ridiculous way to ruin the game.
Best quote of this thread.
After the elimination of softcaps, this game has become nothing but min/max; I need to have my cake and eat it too.
Take a look at some of the arguments being made in this thread...
- all stam characters run the same build
- x-skill is better than y-skill because it offers z more damage
- these races are bad at mag; these are bad at stam and these just suck
- I want access to this and this because I'm stam
- I want access to this and this because I'm mag
Both resource pools are necessary to provide access to abilities lacking from the other pool. You won't and you shouldn't, find every ability you need to be successful being drawn from just one resource pool. This alone should encourage diversity with builds.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭Animal_Mother wrote: »Well one thing can be said for this thread. Its amusing.
Its like a competition to see who can come up with the most ridiculous way to ruin the game.
Best quote of this thread.
After the elimination of softcaps, this game has become nothing but min/max; I need to have my cake and eat it too.
Take a look at some of the arguments being made in this thread...
- all stam characters run the same build
- x-skill is better than y-skill because it offers z more damage
- these races are bad at mag; these are bad at stam and these just suck
- I want access to this and this because I'm stam
- I want access to this and this because I'm mag
Both resource pools are necessary to provide access to abilities lacking from the other pool. You won't and you shouldn't, find every ability you need to be successful being drawn from just one resource pool. This alone should encourage diversity with builds.
Who is making the argument that everything needed to be successful should be drawn from just one resource pool?0 -
What if~
- Make all skills cost magicka
- Trim skill costs down significantly
- Stamina now only affects;
* Light & Heavy dmg
* Amount dmg blocked
* Armour effectiveness (vs penetration n crits)
* Non-mounted movement speed
* Reduces sneak cost
* Dmg from stealth
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ADarklore✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭✭I'd be OK with them adding more Stamina morphs to class abilities but ONLY IF they added Magicka morphs to other weapons outside of Staves. People complain about Class abilities pigeon-holing Stamina players, but Magicka players are equally pigeon-holed into being forced to use a Stave. So if Stamina gets more diversity, so should Magicka... so add Magicka morphs to 2H, DW, 1/S, Bow... at the same time they could add Stamina morphs to Staves. Why are staves considered 'magical' weapons when they're simply an enchanted stick... you could apply that same 'enchanted' mentality to all other weapons as well.CP: 1965 ** ESO+ Gold Road ** ~~ Stamina Arcanist ~~ Magicka Warden ~~ Magicka Templar ~~ ***** Strictly a solo PvE quester *****0 -
Dixa✭✭✭magicka dps has one weapon option, stamina dps has three.
Stamina has three times as many weapon abilities. Unfair! Riot!
Healing has one, tanking has...1.2?
You don't want every ability on your bar using stamina.0 -
Dixa✭✭✭GrumpyDuckling wrote: »I see what you mean OP but the bias exists there for very good reason, though I still somewhat agree with you to a small extent. I mainly believe you are chasing the wrong solution to the problem. Many more important variables are there to be considered which you haven't taken into account.
You have already noted that Magicka needs more skills because there are plenty of skills that must cost Magicka. This is true for them to be more useful on all builds, including Stamina and Health builds. However, this adds up to a lot of skills.
- Magicka has to account for healing skills. These skills practically all cost Magicka, and would be a nightmare if they were weirdly/forcibly tailored to mostly cost Stamina.
- Magicka has to account for tanking skills. These skills almost all cost Magicka, and would be a mess in content if they didn't.
- Magicka has to account for buff skills. A large majority of these skills will cost Magicka, and it would be bad for everyone if they costed Stamina.
To restate, only Stamina builds need those Stamina skills. Everything else - Magicka builds, healers, tanks, supports, whatever, etc - these all rely on Magicka skills with only tanks and supports needing a tiny bit of Stamina cost skills. Stamina builds themselves require plenty of Magicka-based buffs for the sole reason they don't burn Stamina.
Weapon skill lines add up this way:
Stamina - 40 (+8 Ultimates)
Magicka - 20 (+4 Ultimates)
You also have to consider that Stamina has four viable weapon skill lines to use, packed with many good skills. Magicka has two weapons, with one tailored to healers in particular that leave Magicka with one main weapon to use. Stamina fills their bars very strongly with bunch of weapon skill line abilities in both PvE and PvP. After this, they fill empty spots with class Stamina skills that happen to all be strong. Magicka works the opposite way, in that they must fill their bars with class skills and then slot a couple mandatory staff skills.
If we created this 70%/30% balance in our class skills we would see normal Magicka builds suffer tremendously and become an utter mess, while Stamina would have a huge amount of viable skills. Heck, you'd manage to hurt tanks and healers as well.
**What you should ask for is:
1. To change the many garbage/unused Magicka Morphs.
Think of Stone Giant, Shattering Prison, Prolonged Suffering, Crystal Blast, Solar Barrage, Debilitate, Ritual of Rebirth, etc - these could all very easily become Stamina abilities with slightly different effects.
It would add a bunch a fantastic stamina options without hurting Magicka.
2. Ask for each skill to have THREE morphs, a suggestion brought up many times. It could be that Stamina was given a morph of nearly every skill, or maybe 3 morphs per skill line. Everyone would benefit a lot and a ton of build diversity would also result from it. I recall a few Devs saying they were open to the possibility of having three morphs in the future as well.
Class skills are this way for a very good reason. Ask for three morphs per skill, and/or the changing of current trash Magicka morphs to powerful Stamina morphs!
P.S. Warden has 25 magic skills, and 3 Stamina skills..... Netches don't cost anything!
I'm a little concerned about hoping for a 3rd morph for skills, only because that would create a lot of extra work on ZOS' part, and based on comments they have made on ESO about their workload, I don't think they would actually want to do it.
I would prefer to avoid general, sweeping suggestions, but most of the damage-specific skills could/should be examined closely to determine if both a stamina and magicka option could be implemented - that way healers/tanks wouldn't be stepped on because I agree, those skills should for the most part, remain in their current state.
Edit: Haha gotta love those free skills. With the stamina morph for Netch and Repentance (skills that don't cost anything but provide clear stamina bonus) I listed them under stamina.
Warden does have three Stam-costing morphs though:
- Cutting Dive (Dive)
- Subterranean Assault (Scorch)
- Soothing Spores (Fungral Growth)
I think it'd be fantastic if a 3rd set of morphs were added to create much more diversity in morphs as well as add more Stam options.
It would easily work very well assuming ZOS created interesting morphs.
This is my own opinion on the matter at least
ESO could learn A LOT about build diversity from interesting skills by analyzing Diablo 3 imo.
When you factor in that wardens only have like 6 total offensive abilities I don't see an issue with their morph options. Hell they have a stamina based heal.0 -
GrumpyDuckling✭✭✭✭✭
✭✭✭✭magicka dps has one weapon option, stamina dps has three.
Stamina has three times as many weapon abilities. Unfair! Riot!
Healing has one, tanking has...1.2?
You don't want every ability on your bar using stamina.
I don't know any players who want every ability on their bar to scale on the same stat.
The point I'm making is that there are limited options regarding stamina class skills. For example, let's say I want to be a Stamina DK. The entire class only has two stamina morph skills, which means most of my damage abilities will likely come from one or two weapon skill lines.
On my magicka builds, I can get all of my damage skills from the class skill lines, if I want to. On most of my stamina builds, I have to rely on weapon skill lines.1
.