87% of Class Skills are Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19) - Is this Balanced?

GrumpyDuckling

Etchos wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Etchos wrote: »

As has been previously said the thing that isn't taken into account in the "numbers" is that as a Magicka user I will never slot any Stam skills. But as a Stamina user there are huge amounts of Magicka skills that I would want to slot.

One extreme example is that in the numbers above is Dark Deal which is a Magicka skill but it is for a Stam build. How many Magsorcs are running around with that on their bar? But a huge amount of Stam sorcs are running it and view it as an essential skill. Including skills/morphs that by design are for restoring stamina but costing magicka skews the picture.

On nightblade shadowy disguise is a magicka skill but as it cloaks me and gives me a guaranteed crit on my next attack its great for Stam builds in PVP. I wouldn't want this to be a Stam morph that would make survival more difficult for me as a Stamblade.

Other notables "mass hysteria", "reapers mark", "syphoning attacks" "crit surge" "dark deal"............ (not too familiar with Templars and Dragonknights but I'm sure there are ones for those classes to.

As a Stamblade I run 2 weapon skills on both my bars. I'm not dependant on them to be effective. And I run 4 skills that are Magicka based because they help with survival.

I don't want magicka class skills changed to Stam morphs because I don't want everything coming out of one resource pool because then id run dry. Why should my fear, cloak and resource return come out of my stamina pot along with my dodge rolls, blocks and ability costs when magicka users can use their stam to block and dodge while using magicka for abilities and utilities?

This is a lot more balanced then op is making out. But that's what happens when you put a big frame round a painting......you think you see it all but a lot of it is hidden.

Please don't call "this is a lot more balanced th[a]n I am making out." Did you read the first post of the thread? I say that there needs to be more magicka skills than stamina, but suggest a less drastic difference.

Since you seem intent on targeting specific utility skills that wouldn't benefit much from change to stamina, I would like to draw your focus to skills (mostly damage skills) that would make more sense to change. Tell me why these skills, which are currently double-magicka morphs, shouldn't have BOTH a magicka and a stamina morph. We'll use the 4 classes currently in-game:

Dragonknight
- Lava Whip (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Fiery Grip (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Inhale (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Petrify (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Ash Cloud (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)

Nightblade
- Path of Darkness (possibly the worst idea ever)
- Strife (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Agony (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Cripple (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)

Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight (this might be ok)
- Crystal Shard (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Encase (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Daedric Mines (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Mage's Fury (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Lightning Splash (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)

Templar (because healing spells get better when you lift weights?)
- Focused Charge (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Sun Fire (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Solar Flare (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Radiant Destruction (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Healing Ritural (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)
- Cleansing Ritual (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?)

I'm not saying that these are the only skills that should also receive a stamina morph, nor am I saying that all of these should. However, I think strong arguments can be made that all of the skills that I listed should also have a stamina morph.

Edit: Typo

The simple answer is because it would ruin the game. but please refer to the above.

Dramatic statement. Kindly elaborate on how considering stamina morphs for the listed skills would ruin the game. (You are aware that there would still be magicka morphs for these skills too, right?)

Etchos

Because it would make it unbalanced.

Your numbers are correctish but you are using them wrong.

You make the incorrect assumption that Magicka morphs only benefit Magicka based characters. Instead of simply saying "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced" you need to look at each skill and ask "who does it benefit. Some Magicka skills (damage skills) will benefit only Magicka characters, some will benefit mostly stam builds and some will be a benefit to both.

Until you do that what you have presented is purely superficial analysis of insufficient data.

Also in less technical terms the choice between mag and stam should mean something. Saying all class skills should be morphable into both Mag and Stam is falling into the "choice does not matter" trap. What is the point of choice if I can make a character do anything regardless? This is on par with saying all classes should access all skills.

Its moronic

Izaki

I think that in each class, the ground AoE DoT ability should have a stamina morph (Shards, Lightning, Ash Cloud and Path). This alone will go a great way in making stamina builds feel more diverse.

THEDKEXPERIENCE

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

It needs to be said. After years of playing stamina, magicka, and hybrid I feel as though it must be; cannot help but be asked:

What is a stamina class? By this we must assume that outside of the realm of min/maxing stam and magicka "classes" do not exist. This isn't an argument of lexicon, this is an argument of pragmatism.

Did ZoS make the stamina class or did WE the players make the stamina class?

Do you see what I'm getting at? In order to profess that there is an imbalance between two things we must assert that they exist, as such we define a stamina class as a build that focuses on stamina based skills but we have no issue including with stamdks, stamplars, and of course StamSorcs that all use magicka skills as part of their regular arsenal.

Now, I understand the counterpoint. Even if the devs did not intend to push the community to create this chasm between the two non-existent "classes" that's what, unfortunately, it is now. So what do we do as a solution? We stop asking for one way buffs and nerfs.

The player who thinks they're mature and ahead of the curve for saying, "Just buffs please! Stop nerfs!" is still just as damaging as the salty player who is frothing at the mouth for nerfs, because they're still mindlessly supporting the war between green and blue. Instead we should support an equilibrium in choice, something that ZOS has been trying to do for months now.

There are four, soon to be five, classes. Whatever pre-fix sticks to them after that is the doing of a player trying to be competitive.

tl;dr:

ZoS didn't create class distinction, we the community did.
The game didn't start as stamina vs magicka, we made it into that.
One way buffs/nerfs will never solve the problem because we actively contribute to the problem of their only being two options.

This is the most damning but most important point:

If the devs were to make everything balanced I have no doubt that a large chunk of the playerbase, such as the people that argue in these threads, would leave the game.

Correct me if I am wrong here but wasnt hybrids a thing before stamina classes existed? I do recall people saying in beta everything was classless anyways. So in killing the viability in hybrids stamina was born?

At launch most people put every point into health because you got a lot more total points than if you went with magic or stamina.

---

Also, and excuse me if this was mentioned but I didn't see it. Has anyone pointed out that each character does not have access to 75% (soon to be 80% with Warden) of the magic skills? It sounds crazy lopsided but my Templar only has access to 36 magic skills for its class, not 131.

131 is the total between the 5 classes.

That's my point. You can 11,000 choices but if you can only use a really small number of them it doesn't matter. Realisticly a character only has their choice of about 36 class skills, not 130+.

Similarly, since you can only equip 2 weapons you only really have a choice of 24 stamina skills.

The disparity is not in the total amount but in these figures right here. Still not sure why there isn't a stamina and magic morph of basically every skill.

GrumpyDuckling

Etchos wrote: »

Because it would make it unbalanced.

Your numbers are correctish but you are using them wrong.

You make the incorrect assumption that Magicka morphs only benefit Magicka based characters. Instead of simply saying "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced" you need to look at each skill and ask "who does it benefit. Some Magicka skills (damage skills) will benefit only Magicka characters, some will benefit mostly stam builds and some will be a benefit to both.

Until you do that what you have presented is purely superficial analysis of insufficient data.

Also in less technical terms the choice between mag and stam should mean something. Saying all class skills should be morphable into both Mag and Stam is falling into the "choice does not matter" trap. What is the point of choice if I can make a character do anything regardless? This is on par with saying all classes should access all skills.

Its moronic

I'm going to remove myself from this back and forth with you because I have yet to see a solid argument against considering stamina morphs for the skills listed earlier, and I also dislike your tactic of creating fake quotes. I never said "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced."

Maybe this discussion could be revisited at a later time.

GrumpyDuckling

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

THEDKEXPERIENCE wrote: »

DragonBound wrote: »

Kova wrote: »

It needs to be said. After years of playing stamina, magicka, and hybrid I feel as though it must be; cannot help but be asked:

What is a stamina class? By this we must assume that outside of the realm of min/maxing stam and magicka "classes" do not exist. This isn't an argument of lexicon, this is an argument of pragmatism.

Did ZoS make the stamina class or did WE the players make the stamina class?

Do you see what I'm getting at? In order to profess that there is an imbalance between two things we must assert that they exist, as such we define a stamina class as a build that focuses on stamina based skills but we have no issue including with stamdks, stamplars, and of course StamSorcs that all use magicka skills as part of their regular arsenal.

Now, I understand the counterpoint. Even if the devs did not intend to push the community to create this chasm between the two non-existent "classes" that's what, unfortunately, it is now. So what do we do as a solution? We stop asking for one way buffs and nerfs.

The player who thinks they're mature and ahead of the curve for saying, "Just buffs please! Stop nerfs!" is still just as damaging as the salty player who is frothing at the mouth for nerfs, because they're still mindlessly supporting the war between green and blue. Instead we should support an equilibrium in choice, something that ZOS has been trying to do for months now.

There are four, soon to be five, classes. Whatever pre-fix sticks to them after that is the doing of a player trying to be competitive.

tl;dr:

ZoS didn't create class distinction, we the community did.
The game didn't start as stamina vs magicka, we made it into that.
One way buffs/nerfs will never solve the problem because we actively contribute to the problem of their only being two options.

This is the most damning but most important point:

If the devs were to make everything balanced I have no doubt that a large chunk of the playerbase, such as the people that argue in these threads, would leave the game.

Correct me if I am wrong here but wasnt hybrids a thing before stamina classes existed? I do recall people saying in beta everything was classless anyways. So in killing the viability in hybrids stamina was born?

At launch most people put every point into health because you got a lot more total points than if you went with magic or stamina.

---

Also, and excuse me if this was mentioned but I didn't see it. Has anyone pointed out that each character does not have access to 75% (soon to be 80% with Warden) of the magic skills? It sounds crazy lopsided but my Templar only has access to 36 magic skills for its class, not 131.

131 is the total between the 5 classes.

That's my point. You can 11,000 choices but if you can only use a really small number of them it doesn't matter. Realisticly a character only has their choice of about 36 class skills, not 130+.

Similarly, since you can only equip 2 weapons you only really have a choice of 24 stamina skills.

The disparity is not in the total amount but in these figures right here. Still not sure why there isn't a stamina and magic morph of basically every skill.

If you read the first post of the thread, you will see the class breakdown. The 131 and 19 numbers were compiled to make a larger point that across all 5 classes there are more magicka options than stamina - perhaps a bit more than there should be. No one suggested that each class has access to all 131 morphs, so I'm struggling to see where you're getting that from.

Edit: Typo

Etchos

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Etchos wrote: »

Because it would make it unbalanced.

Your numbers are correctish but you are using them wrong.

You make the incorrect assumption that Magicka morphs only benefit Magicka based characters. Instead of simply saying "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced" you need to look at each skill and ask "who does it benefit. Some Magicka skills (damage skills) will benefit only Magicka characters, some will benefit mostly stam builds and some will be a benefit to both.

Until you do that what you have presented is purely superficial analysis of insufficient data.

Also in less technical terms the choice between mag and stam should mean something. Saying all class skills should be morphable into both Mag and Stam is falling into the "choice does not matter" trap. What is the point of choice if I can make a character do anything regardless? This is on par with saying all classes should access all skills.

Its moronic

I'm going to remove myself from this back and forth with you because I have yet to see a solid argument against considering stamina morphs for the skills listed earlier, and I also dislike your tactic of creating fake quotes. I never said "these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced."

Maybe this discussion could be revisited at a later time.

"these are all magicka skills its so unbalanced"

so the point of this thread isn't that this? You haven't said those exact words but its an exact summary of your original post.

Unless ofcourse you don't think there are to much magicka skills and the game is unbalanced. Help me out here because I'm struggling to keep up with the flipflopping

Magıc

Yes it's balanced because the game never intended to have stamina builds. Once Zos did bring in stamina classes, they let it be known that stamina classes relied on the weapon skill line skills. Boring yes but how it should be seeing as they weren't even a thing at the start of the game.

And I'm a stamDK main.

Tornaad

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Magicka vs. Stamina Discrepancy by Class (Morphs Only)

Dragonknight
Magicka - 28 skills (+4 ultimates)
Stamina - 2 skills (+2 ultimates)

Nightblade
Magicka - 24 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 6 skills (+1 ultimate)

Sorcerer
Magicka - 26 skills (+6 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+0 ultimates)

Templar
Magicka - 26 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+1 ultimate)

Warden
Magicka - 27 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 3 skills (+1 ultimate)

Total Numbers

Total class skill morphs - Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19)
Total class ultimate morphs - Magicka (25) vs. Stamina (5)

Variables to Consider

- There are more Stamina weapon skill lines (4) than Magicka weapon skill lines (2).
- There are a few oddball skills (ex: Flames of Oblivion costs magicka to use, but will scale with highest statistics).
- There are a few skills that scale off health, but cost magicka (ex: Blazing Shield).
- Some skills are buff skills, without damage components.
- Stamina is used exclusively in breaking CC, roll-dodging, and blocking (for every weapon equipped except ice staff).
- Magicka is used exclusively for shielding - excluding Bone Shield (guild ability), and blocking with ice staff.

Analysis

Most of the variables point to the need for more class-based Magicka skills than Stamina, however when 131 out of 150 skills are Magicka-based, Stamina builds are very limited when selecting from their pool of class skills. Perhaps a 60-40%, or even a 70-30% divide (in favor of Magicka) would give Stamina morphs more options. Also, there is no justification for why Magicka Ultimate morphs are more abundant (25 in total), than Stamina Ultimate morphs (5 in total).

@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
Please consider.

@GrumpyDuckling taking it even further there are 0 class based skills that start as stamina. So that means they want everyone to at least start as hybrid magic based as everyone has to start off with a class. Taking addition skills are optional.

dodgehopper_ESO

Maybe they could offer a couple fresh new skills to the class lineup that are stamina in origin? I'd love it if there were more class skill options.

Floki_Vilgerdarson

OP you left out evey weapon class. Skills which are the most common skills used on a stamina build.

My magic toon cannot use weapons, so if you want a change, I want magic cost morphs for weapons.

Soon we will all be hybrids. Idk.

Floki

GrumpyDuckling

Floki_Vilgerdarson wrote: »

OP you left out evey weapon class. Skills which are the most common skills used on a stamina build.

My magic toon cannot use weapons, so if you want a change, I want magic cost morphs for weapons.

Soon we will all be hybrids. Idk.

Floki

There are magicka-based weapons in Destruction Staff and Restoration Staff. Also, although there are four stamina-based weapon skill lines, only two of them are accessible to a character because only two different weapons can be equipped at a time - effectively rendering the other two skill lines obsolete when it comes to ability selection.

Radburn

It's flawed to compare all classes magicka skills to all stamina skills. A class only has access to their 3 trees whereas every class has access to all Stamina based weapon skills. You can only fairly compare a single class when trying to make this argument. There are also more factors to consider before implying magicka is better because it has 10, 20 or even 30 more skills.

I played a Magplar in pvp for the past 3 years and recently made a Stamplar. I find the Stamplar better suited for solo pvp, even though my magplar has access to more skills, has radiant destruction and breath of life which everyone complains of. The reason being is it sucks to be drained of stamina after 1 break free and a dodge roll and not having any stamina regen to get it back quickly enough to prepare for the next CC. This is offset by utility costing magicka, which is reduced by cost reduction and complimented by strong magicka regen.

On Magplar I can use utility, DPS, healing and not worry about magicka, however I have to use break free and dodge roll very carefully. I'm dead of stamina reaches zero.

On Stamplar I can use DPS, Healing (vigor), break free, dodge roll and not worry about stamina, however I have to use my utiltiy skills like extended ritual and restoring focus carefully as both will deplete my magicka (no cost reduction and no magicka regen). I'm not dead if my magicka reaches zero.

For complete parity between stamina and magicka skills on a 1:1 ratio ZOS would need to make some major changes. Break free, dodge roll and sprint would either need to be unbound from stamina and given a separate resource or they would need to be tied to whichever resource is higher. Doing this would have the undesired effect of homogenizing stamina and magicka builds. I personally would be in favour but there are lots of people who don't like this idea.

LorDrek

Nice post.

LorDrek

Nothing will change, they did not do it for 3,5 years, never do it.

kuro-dono

i could not bother read rest of the text after op, but i am sure there is good reason why there isnt more stamina skills than there is.

burst power/ganks mostly done by pew pew bowtards with 2h.
stamina abilities perform in pvp WAY BETTER than magica.
stamina abilities is good for you because... dodge roll requires stamina which is your main resource source for stamina
stamina already rocks way better in most situations at pvp.

OBVIOUSLY. we get loads of casuals, then we get seasoned, then we get small scalers, griefer sorcs/nightblades and cant forget magica aoe choo choos with their rapid bots, heal bots and such, but if we take out both end extremes... it will leave with stamina players dominating battlefields BADLY. more stamina abilities...? less magica users...? who cares that there is so many magica abilities when stamina dominates so BADLY???

real diversity would be to NERF STAMINA FIRST, SO BAD THAT PPL SWAP TO USE MAGICA MORE. then figure the golden middle road and balance skills accordingly. FORUM WHINE does nothing good for the balance.

Fvh09NL

I would love for ZoS to have a system like this:

Base Skill --> Magicka or Stamina Morph -->
- When chosen Magicka --> Magicka Morph 1 or 2
- When chosen Stamina --> Stamina Morph 1 or 2

Whenever the skill would be unlocked you would be able to choose between the Magicka and Stamina morph, no need to level it first. After either morph is chosen it would work the same as it currently does.

I think something like this would really help diversity (you could make one morph more damage oriented and one more utility oriented for example).

Although magicka needs more weapons in this case and ZoS will probably never do this since they would have a lot of skills to balance (which I fully understand).

jeskah

Flameheart wrote: »

jeskah wrote: »

Flameheart wrote: »

It is balanced as long as a stamina build can fullfill its role. The fact that you have to achieve that goal with far less individual skills makes it maybe more boring, but not less balanced if you are able to achieve the goal. Balance is a matter of effectivity, not of flavor or personal taste.

Btw, there are more Weapon skill lines directed to stamina and there are still utility skills you use on magicka base as a stamina user and vice versa.

Again, its the backpack from the past: the original vision was vastly different from the current state of the game. Lets not forget the total chaos at release, when pretty much nobody understood, which skill used weapon power/crit and spell power/crit (destro staff used weapon power f.e.) - at the end, if im not mistaken, everyone used weapon power . Not to mention the obvious softcaps in-game.

The game evolved - well, at least changed - but not fully.

Oh, BTW, i mall for a second, dual-wield (wand and tome, whatever) magicka skill line.

I remember that chaos well, yes. Reminded me for Molten Core in WoW where shamans got willpower sets as MP5-users :-)
I even agree that stamina could need some more variety, but it's not a matter of effectivity and therefore balance. You could overexert Zenimax' ability to test, fix and patch things bugfree though. They will have a very large to do list after Morrowind release within a week...

To limit the boredom I just play one stamina build (see my sig). Have you seen one, you have seen all and stamina NBs are even the class with the most variety. In addition you are able to play all 3 roles as a magicka user, by just doing a simple gear and skill swap and that's freedom par excellence.

Of course, i gave up hope to happen anything in the morrowind patch - i agree, that they are simply unable to do that right now. But i did not gave up all hope!
You know, soon, ut at least NO ETA!
(BTW, really, ZOS? That was a PR disaster, by yourself, on your own turf.)

subtlezeroub17_ESO wrote: »

Okay, but did you include weapon skill lines or did you exclude that factor to meet your agenda?

There's a specific reason why most class skills are magicka only. BECAUSE STAMINA USES CLASS SKILLS AS UTILITY BUT RELY ON WEAPON SKILLS.

Until magicka classes also have 3 additional weapon lines, and no the resto staff doesn't count, then you cannot logically actually think it would be fair for stamina to have larger pieces of the pie when that piece is also infringing on the magicka side.

Which is IMHO a bad design decision - again, a relic from the past (Elder Robes Online).
And again, as i wrote earlier, too much changed in the game over the time (the 2 big homogenizational patches, f.e.) to keep things that way.

As for the occasional magicka-based skill used for utility: for one part, its fine as it is. SHould they turn it into a stamina morph, IMHO, we would have no problem with it (mostly: resource trade mechanics would be... interesting that way) - of course, the question would arise in such a scenario, WTH would be good for the magicka pool? Base design problem.

Now, back to the weapon lines-class skills relic thing:
First of all, again, im all for a new, magicka weapon skill line. Needed for diversity (and i hate staves).
And weapon skill lines are restrictive -especially stamina weapon skill lines, compare ancient knowledge and ruffian f.e. - compared to class skill lines.

jeskah

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Dragonknight
- Lava Whip (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - Its a frigging whip. From day 1, it should have had a stamina morph.
- Fiery Grip (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - damage component
- Inhale (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - possible stamina return

Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight (this might be ok) - no, please, just kill the pets from this tree already. Either weak as hell, or overpowered as ***, just kill them.
- Crystal Shard (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - an interesting mechanic to stam sorcs.
- Encase (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - would couple up with DW nicely - and bring access to blood magic. Could be OP tough.
- Daedric Mines (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - i dont like the original ones already.
- Mage's Fury (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - FUN! And bursty stamsorcs. So, it could be dangerous.
- Lightning Splash (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - Extremely dangerous idea IMHO, a strong class dot on top of the current dots... nah, rather not.

Of me: Overload! A stamina morph for it! Would look awesome. Probably borderline useless (the ulti reduction and the weapon ultimates have taken care of this skill), but still awesome.


Templar (because healing spells get better when you lift weights?)
- Focused Charge (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - again, damage component.

The simple answer is because it would ruin the game. but please refer to the above.

Cherrypicked some, with an addition:

IMHO, the vMA DW weapons in the current form should go. I love DW, but i find the rapid strike - dot it mechanic awful.
Second thought, that the root of the problems are somewhere near the damage scaling of resources. Problems is, that changing that would need more work, than giving away some stamina morphs to keep us happy

STEVIL

jeskah wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Dragonknight
- Lava Whip (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - Its a frigging whip. From day 1, it should have had a stamina morph.
- Fiery Grip (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - damage component
- Inhale (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - possible stamina return

Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight (this might be ok) - no, please, just kill the pets from this tree already. Either weak as hell, or overpowered as ***, just kill them.
- Crystal Shard (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - an interesting mechanic to stam sorcs.
- Encase (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - would couple up with DW nicely - and bring access to blood magic. Could be OP tough.
- Daedric Mines (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - i dont like the original ones already.
- Mage's Fury (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - FUN! And bursty stamsorcs. So, it could be dangerous.
- Lightning Splash (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - Extremely dangerous idea IMHO, a strong class dot on top of the current dots... nah, rather not.

Of me: Overload! A stamina morph for it! Would look awesome. Probably borderline useless (the ulti reduction and the weapon ultimates have taken care of this skill), but still awesome.


Templar (because healing spells get better when you lift weights?)
- Focused Charge (what possible benefit to the game would this bring?) - again, damage component.

The simple answer is because it would ruin the game. but please refer to the above.

Cherrypicked some, with an addition:

IMHO, the vMA DW weapons in the current form should go. I love DW, but i find the rapid strike - dot it mechanic awful.
Second thought, that the root of the problems are somewhere near the damage scaling of resources. Problems is, that changing that would need more work, than giving away some stamina morphs to keep us happy

IMO the vma weapons should go altogether and be replaced with either guaranteed but temporary/expendable blessings (no "bad luck" but repeats needed for replacements/recharge) OR VMA jewels (which have a much less onerous grind.) Combining the worst grind possible with the time consuming content is bad design - frustration-wise. You can get repeatability without that much frustration.

bebynnag

I would personally love to see one of the morphs of storm atronach changed to become either a flesh atronach (disease damage) or an air atronach (physical damage) on a sorc

Gan Xing

Omnipresent wrote: »

Yes due to the fact zos clearly hates stam lol i thew pelinals on my stamblade and grabed a destro staff and i honestly am kinda pissed off at myself for not doing this sooner. the bow needs some love, stamblade needs like crazy love.

I'm not the only one!!!!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m_zA_ABWtrc

leepalmer95

Most of those are utility skills.

Stamina has 4 weapon skill lines
Magicka has 2 with 1 being a healing one.


I don't see the issue.

GrumpyDuckling

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Most of those are utility skills.

Stamina has 4 weapon skill lines
Magicka has 2 with 1 being a healing one.


I don't see the issue.

Stamina can only access 2 out of 4 of those weapon skill lines at a time because only two weapons can be equipped. Consider the following skills (most of which are not utility) as skills that could benefit from a stamina morph:

Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud

Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple

Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash

Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritural
- Cleansing Ritual

I'm not saying that these are the only skills that should also receive a stamina morph, nor am I saying that all of these should. However, I think strong arguments can be made that all of the skills that I listed should also have a stamina morph.

leepalmer95

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Most of those are utility skills.

Stamina has 4 weapon skill lines
Magicka has 2 with 1 being a healing one.


I don't see the issue.

Stamina can only access 2 out of 4 of those weapon skill lines at a time because only two weapons can be equipped. Consider the following skills (most of which are not utility) as skills that could benefit from a stamina morph:

Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud

Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple

Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash

Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritural
- Cleansing Ritual

I'm not saying that these are the only skills that should also receive a stamina morph, nor am I saying that all of these should. However, I think strong arguments can be made that all of the skills that I listed should also have a stamina morph.

What kind of logic is that? Its about choice... not the fact you can only equip 2.

Really doesn't need to be more, magicka dump skills don't need a stamina morph either.

Dk's don't need a stam whip, petrify is a cc that doesn't do dmg, its utility same with chains.

Nb has suprise attack for a stam morph.

Stamina has enough choices..

seedubsrun

I like the idea of upon morph choosing between stamina or magicka and then getting 2 morphs based on that resource. It would probably be better on just class abilities though. I think right now stam characters just don't get a stamina morph or there's only one so you get no choice. Then there's things like the Warden where the stam morph just makes it a stamina ability but the magicka morph improves upon the original skill.

I get that it would be complicated but would give much better diversity of builds and go a long way towards making classes feel unique. Every class can be either stamina or magicka so it's only fitting that the skills chosen would be too. So what if it has the chance of creating builds that only use one resource. I'm a magsorc and all my skills use magicka (except dodge, CC break, block of course). What would it matter if that was the same for stamina? It could in fact lead to more clever choices in morphs. If you make every skill stamina then constantly run out of resources then you'd have to consider using magicka for some things. Maybe you'd choose to have your healing skills use magic or vice versa for mag characters. If we're supposed to be able to play how we want then what's the big deal?

The idea from above where storm atronach becomes a flesh atronach and does poison damage is a good example of how this could work. That would be sweet. If your stamsorc uses pets then all of a sudden the Hunt set from Maelstrom becomes usable. There would be many instances where that would happen. Maybe the familiar becomes a spider that shoots a snare web.

GrumpyDuckling

leepalmer95 wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

leepalmer95 wrote: »

Most of those are utility skills.

Stamina has 4 weapon skill lines
Magicka has 2 with 1 being a healing one.


I don't see the issue.

Stamina can only access 2 out of 4 of those weapon skill lines at a time because only two weapons can be equipped. Consider the following skills (most of which are not utility) as skills that could benefit from a stamina morph:

Dragonknight
- Lava Whip
- Fiery Grip
- Inhale
- Petrify
- Ash Cloud

Nightblade
- Path of Darkness
- Strife
- Agony
- Cripple

Sorcerer
- Winged Twilight
- Crystal Shard
- Encase
- Daedric Mines
- Mage's Fury
- Lightning Splash

Templar
- Focused Charge
- Sun Fire
- Solar Flare
- Radiant Destruction
- Healing Ritural
- Cleansing Ritual

I'm not saying that these are the only skills that should also receive a stamina morph, nor am I saying that all of these should. However, I think strong arguments can be made that all of the skills that I listed should also have a stamina morph.

What kind of logic is that? Its about choice... not the fact you can only equip 2.

Really doesn't need to be more, magicka dump skills don't need a stamina morph either.

Dk's don't need a stam whip, petrify is a cc that doesn't do dmg, its utility same with chains.

Nb has suprise attack for a stam morph.

Stamina has enough choices..

I disagree. I think stamina deserves more choices. Not as much as magicka, because of reasons I listed in the first post of the thread, but more than there currently are.

Xvorg

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Magicka vs. Stamina Discrepancy by Class (Morphs Only)

Dragonknight
Magicka - 28 skills (+4 ultimates)
Stamina - 2 skills (+2 ultimates)

Nightblade
Magicka - 24 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 6 skills (+1 ultimate)

Sorcerer
Magicka - 26 skills (+6 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+0 ultimates)

Templar
Magicka - 26 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+1 ultimate)

Warden
Magicka - 27 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 3 skills (+1 ultimate)

Total Numbers

Total class skill morphs - Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19)
Total class ultimate morphs - Magicka (25) vs. Stamina (5)

Variables to Consider

- There are more Stamina weapon skill lines (4) than Magicka weapon skill lines (2).
- There are a few oddball skills (ex: Flames of Oblivion costs magicka to use, but will scale with highest statistics).
- There are a few skills that scale off health, but cost magicka (ex: Blazing Shield).
- Some skills are buff skills, without damage components.
- Stamina is used exclusively in breaking CC, roll-dodging, and blocking (for every weapon equipped except ice staff).
- Magicka is used exclusively for shielding - excluding Bone Shield (guild ability), and blocking with ice staff.

Analysis

Most of the variables point to the need for more class-based Magicka skills than Stamina, however when 131 out of 150 skills are Magicka-based, Stamina builds are very limited when selecting from their pool of class skills. Perhaps a 60-40%, or even a 70-30% divide (in favor of Magicka) would give Stamina morphs more options. Also, there is no justification for why Magicka Ultimate morphs are more abundant (25 in total), than Stamina Ultimate morphs (5 in total).

@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
Please consider.

whats a magicka ulti? Whats a stamina ulti?

GrumpyDuckling

Xvorg wrote: »

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Magicka vs. Stamina Discrepancy by Class (Morphs Only)

Dragonknight
Magicka - 28 skills (+4 ultimates)
Stamina - 2 skills (+2 ultimates)

Nightblade
Magicka - 24 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 6 skills (+1 ultimate)

Sorcerer
Magicka - 26 skills (+6 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+0 ultimates)

Templar
Magicka - 26 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 4 skills (+1 ultimate)

Warden
Magicka - 27 skills (+5 ultimates)
Stamina - 3 skills (+1 ultimate)

Total Numbers

Total class skill morphs - Magicka (131) vs. Stamina (19)
Total class ultimate morphs - Magicka (25) vs. Stamina (5)

Variables to Consider

- There are more Stamina weapon skill lines (4) than Magicka weapon skill lines (2).
- There are a few oddball skills (ex: Flames of Oblivion costs magicka to use, but will scale with highest statistics).
- There are a few skills that scale off health, but cost magicka (ex: Blazing Shield).
- Some skills are buff skills, without damage components.
- Stamina is used exclusively in breaking CC, roll-dodging, and blocking (for every weapon equipped except ice staff).
- Magicka is used exclusively for shielding - excluding Bone Shield (guild ability), and blocking with ice staff.

Analysis

Most of the variables point to the need for more class-based Magicka skills than Stamina, however when 131 out of 150 skills are Magicka-based, Stamina builds are very limited when selecting from their pool of class skills. Perhaps a 60-40%, or even a 70-30% divide (in favor of Magicka) would give Stamina morphs more options. Also, there is no justification for why Magicka Ultimate morphs are more abundant (25 in total), than Stamina Ultimate morphs (5 in total).

@Wrobel
@ZOS_BrianWheeler
@ZOS_RichLambert
Please consider.

whats a magicka ulti? Whats a stamina ulti?

If you read the description of the ultimate, then it will tell you what type of damage (magic, fire, physical, disease, etc) it scales on, which is boosted by your champion point passives.

magic fire, ice, shock = magicka
physical, poision, disease = stamina

Xvorg

GrumpyDuckling wrote: »

Kaymorolis wrote: »

How does one determine that an Ultimate is a Stamina vs. Magicka ultimate?

Based on the type of damage it does. If you read the description it will mention it. It's affected by champion points and armor.

No.

The dmg they do only is affected by the CPs distribution. In no CPs campaigns or battle grounds it doesnt matter, what it matters is max spell/wpn dmg and max resource...